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Projects And Transportation => Northeast Ohio Projects & Construction => Topic started by: SixthCity on August 07, 2014, 10:13:17 AM

Title: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: SixthCity on August 07, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Stark Enterprises joint venture plans new retail, apartments, more on Gateway District parking lot

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Nearly six years after developer Bob Stark dropped plans for a large project in the Warehouse District, he's chasing another opportunity to replace downtown Cleveland parking lots with stores, apartments and offices.

Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon have formed a joint venture to buy three parking lots, a garage and a small building from affiliates of the L&R Group of Companies in California. The sale would put key downtown development sites in the hands of local owners and set the table for new construction on a block between East Fourth Street and Progressive Field.

A real estate broker representing L&R confirmed that a deal is in the works.


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/08/stark_enterprises_joint_ventur.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on August 07, 2014, 10:17:38 AM
Awesome. I can't believe the pace of all these development announcements lately...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on August 07, 2014, 10:26:38 AM
From the article, to note:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But he waxed poetic about constructing something with "the kind of architecture that lets the world know that Cleveland is back, and that Cleveland is in competition with Chicago and New York."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stark Enterprises has no immediate plans for L&R's parking lot on West Ninth. But the company does plan to preserve and redevelop the Herold Building, the historic and condemned building at 310 Prospect Ave. L&R has been sparring with the city over the future of the structure, which is tied up in a legal fight over demolition versus restoration.

It's unclear how the sale to Stark and J-Dek will impact that litigation, which includes a Cleveland Housing Court case and an appeal in Cuyahoga County court. An attorney representing L&R declined to comment. Stark said he intends to save the Herold Building and to pursue new construction on the small parking lot next door.

Those Prospect Avenue projects would be a separate development from the new construction on the 3-acre Huron Road block.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on August 07, 2014, 10:39:18 AM
Finally L and R comes to its senses.  Very exciting news.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on August 07, 2014, 10:47:38 AM
This is crazy! Every day there's something new. Props to stark
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: dave68 on August 07, 2014, 10:55:33 AM
Incredible news!  I wish some of tho development could incorporate a revised version of The Central Market for the growing downtown residents
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: tradition7 on August 07, 2014, 11:00:50 AM
It's about time.  This could be awesome.  I am disappointed that he brought up "national restaurant chains" in the article but I'm excited to see this develop.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 07, 2014, 11:01:34 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Stark Enterprises joint venture plans new retail, apartments, more on Gateway District parking lot

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Nearly six years after developer Bob Stark dropped plans for a large project in the Warehouse District, he's chasing another opportunity to replace downtown Cleveland parking lots with stores, apartments and offices.

Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon have formed a joint venture to buy three parking lots, a garage and a small building from affiliates of the L&R Group of Companies in California. The sale would put key downtown development sites in the hands of local owners and set the table for new construction on a block between East Fourth Street and Progressive Field.

A real estate broker representing L&R confirmed that a deal is in the works.


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/08/stark_enterprises_joint_ventur.html#incart_river

OK, I need a cigarette after reading that......
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on August 07, 2014, 11:11:36 AM
I'm as skeptical as anybody but props to Michelle for noting the differences between this and Stark's proposal for the Warehouse District; makes me feel a little better for this go-around.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on August 07, 2014, 11:34:36 AM
I remember reading KJP's excellent dissertation on the Y-Pescht plan back in 2005 proposed by Stark.  Something about Budapest and a bunch of history stuff  :-o.  On Urban Ohio of course.  At that time, this location was one of the legs of the "Y" if I remember correctly.   

I've decided with this one that I am not going to be skeptical.  Given the current trends in development, and an immenent deal closing on the property, I feel relatively confident.  One reason being that Stark has an excellent relationship with the International Council of Shopping Centers, and the national retailers involved in that society.  He wooed them to Crocker and Eton, and can probably do that here.  We have Cleveland themed restaurants on 4th, so I'm not dissapointed with national chains here.  It broadens downtown Cleveland brand by bringing them in IMHO.  If there is a man that can do that in Cleveland, I believe Stark is the guy.  Oh, and also, I don't think he's in the business of operating parking lots. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: musky on August 07, 2014, 11:41:13 AM
In other Gateway news (and cross posted from the Indians thread since that is really about the team  and their performance and this IS a district development)

Cleveland Indians detail multimillion-dollar renovation plans, seat cuts at Progressive Field

The Cleveland Indians will eliminate roughly 7,000 seats from Progressive Field, as part of a multimillion-dollar renovation designed to boost attendance at games and create more spaces that appeal to young professionals and families.

During a meeting early Thursday morning at the downtown ballpark, Indians President Mark Shapiro said the team is responding to fan feedback and broader changes in professional sports.  Between the end of this season and opening day in 2015, the Indians hope to reconfigure stretches of the venue from center field to right field.

They'll cap off a section of the upper deck, which sits empty on all but the busiest days, with a platform that will conceal unused seats and create new game-viewing areas. They'll add a two-story, indoor-outdoor bar and five food areas dedicated to Cleveland neighborhoods, as part of a concessions overhaul. And they'll expand the Kids Clubhouse and other areas for families, while eliminating 16 or so suites as part of an ongoing effort to cut back on poorly used, higher-price seating.

"We're really adapting the building to the current sports landscape and the size of the market," Shapiro said.


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/08/cleveland_indians_detail_multi.html#incart_m-rpt-1 (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/08/cleveland_indians_detail_multi.html#incart_m-rpt-1)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 3231 on August 07, 2014, 11:57:05 AM
What a win-win. Developing that huge parking lot and also saving the Herold building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 07, 2014, 12:03:25 PM
In other Gateway news (and cross posted from the Indians thread since that is really about the team  and their performance and this IS a district development)

Cleveland Indians detail multimillion-dollar renovation plans, seat cuts at Progressive Field


Started a Progressive Field renovation thread last night, since we also have for the renovations at FirstEnergy Stadium.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on August 07, 2014, 12:30:42 PM
I'm as skeptical as anybody but props to Michelle for noting the differences between this and Stark's proposal for the Warehouse District; makes me feel a little better for this go-around.

The biggest difference being they will own this land.  They will want to maximize that investment
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CBC on August 07, 2014, 12:50:35 PM
Niiiice. Office space seems like it would be no brainer for the upper stories along with the retail.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on August 07, 2014, 01:02:12 PM
Tucked away parking, and good architecture.  He's saying the right stuff.  gotta make sure they do the E4th side right.  It is the corridor to the stadiums and the street can be really special if they extend the feel of 4th.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on August 07, 2014, 01:15:50 PM
So, I wonder how this will tie in with the Ferrari dealership :wink:.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on August 07, 2014, 01:16:22 PM
^If you recall, one of Stark's contemplations for Pescht(?) was a pedestrian only Rockwell Ave with a similar feel to E4th.  I can't imagine he is going to pass up the opportunity to extend the E4th feel directly across Prospect.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Barneyboy on August 07, 2014, 02:04:05 PM
Quote
^If you recall, one of Stark's contemplations for Pescht(?) was a pedestrian only Rockwell Ave with a similar feel to E4th.  I can't imagine he is going to pass up the opportunity to extend the E4th feel directly across Prospect.
Not Rockwell, but Frankfort.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: tradition7 on August 07, 2014, 03:18:37 PM
A little more info...

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140807/FREE/140809839/j-dek-ltd-stark-enterprises-inc-joint-venture-to-pursue-mixed-use
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on August 07, 2014, 03:57:14 PM
 Excellent news.  Another surface parking lot bites the dust!   :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: FancyMustard on August 07, 2014, 04:55:06 PM
The thought of downtown infill gets me all warm and fuzzy feeling inside  :-D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MidwestChamp on August 07, 2014, 05:09:12 PM
I'm loving these unexpected development announcements that seem to happen every other week!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 07, 2014, 05:14:31 PM
A massing of the proposed development. Looks big enough to warrant its own thread.....

Michelle J. McFee ‏@mjarboe  9m
So proposed @EnterpriseStark project in #CLE's Gateway District has a name: "nuCLEus." And here's a massing study. pic.twitter.com/kOAaq2YANA

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BudtwJLCQAAgG30.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on August 07, 2014, 05:23:02 PM
Man Stark loves doing the massing thing. I hope the height is true.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on August 07, 2014, 05:26:41 PM
Very nice, so if we went by that massing, it looks like 380' for the taller and 200-250' for the shorter. That would be skyline impact!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on August 07, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
When first reading about the project (and I know it is not even conceptual at this point) I did not imagine buildings that tall. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on August 07, 2014, 05:42:24 PM
^I like the project and the new thread... just don't think Stark's name merits heading it.  He's no bigger than any of the other truly worthy developers (MRN, K&D, Fishman & Wolstein, etc.), he's just had a bigger microphone but with no results.  And now, following in their footsteps, it finally looks like he may get a major downtown development project done  ... yeah, I know it's a minor thing, but still ...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: FancyMustard on August 07, 2014, 05:54:47 PM
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 07, 2014, 06:02:01 PM
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?

The graphic above is a massing, not a rendering. He'll use that to attract tenants (probably some anchor retailers), then draw up some conceptual renderings to secure the financing. And if he gets the financing, then we'll see some meaningful renderings. A lot of this is dependent on how fast The 9 fills up and at what rents. If Stark's project comes together quickly, then that will be a strong affirmation that downtown has turned another corner.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: FancyMustard on August 07, 2014, 06:04:59 PM
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 07, 2014, 06:08:29 PM
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?

Probably pretty good considering the expected purchase price of the land. You can't service a loan of that size with smaller revenue from a smaller development. But some financiers are going to be very hesitant unless Stark can get some big anchors lined up and can offer some valuable collateral.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: tradition7 on August 07, 2014, 06:30:21 PM
I absolutely did not expect that kind of height! I think this will drastically alter the look driving through Cleveland on I-90 eastbound.  Also, the density this will cause on the north side of the arena will give a much more "big city" feel.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on August 07, 2014, 06:55:36 PM
I'm loving almost everything about this project, but I'm sort of disappointed to see that it looks like they will be tearing down the attractive little brick building facing Prospect. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on August 07, 2014, 06:59:39 PM
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?

Probably pretty good considering the expected purchase price of the land. You can't service a loan of that size with smaller revenue from a smaller development. But some financiers are going to be very hesitant unless Stark can get some big anchors lined up and can offer some valuable collateral.

From Cranes: "Pietro said L&R set the price for the land high so that buyers would have to develop the sites vertically rather than continuing to operate it for parking."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on August 07, 2014, 07:17:15 PM
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?

Probably pretty good considering the expected purchase price of the land. You can't service a loan of that size with smaller revenue from a smaller development. But some financiers are going to be very hesitant unless Stark can get some big anchors lined up and can offer some valuable collateral.

From Cranes: "Pietro said L&R set the price for the land high so that buyers would have to develop the sites vertically rather than continuing to operate it for parking."

So, at the end of the day, thank you L&R?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on August 07, 2014, 07:37:33 PM
Ehhh
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on August 07, 2014, 07:38:38 PM
So, at the end of the day, thank you L&R?

The quote from Crain's makes it sound like L&R had an altruistic reason for setting the price high. Fact is they wanted to get paid -- period.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on August 07, 2014, 07:55:22 PM
I'm loving almost everything about this project, but I'm sort of disappointed to see that it looks like they will be tearing down the attractive little brick building facing Prospect. 

I think you're talking about the building with Mr. Albert's Men's World, with Nick's sports bar and that DNA rooftop club... yeah, I don't like losing a quirky little building like this because it adds to the unique, historic urban fabric of Prospect.  But I'd rather have this new development more.  Sometimes you've gotta give something to get something.
Title: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CBC on August 07, 2014, 09:16:11 PM
Holy smokes that's tall. Pure speculation but based on that massing its looks like there would be a 4/5 story parking structure on the inside or a open rooftop pool area, after I looked at it again.

Re: nicks sports. A true dive bar gem.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on August 07, 2014, 09:42:19 PM
can someone post an aerial of the site as it looks now w/o the massing?

lets see if it really warrants teardowns.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on August 07, 2014, 10:28:52 PM
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?

The graphic above is a massing, not a rendering. He'll use that to attract tenants (probably some anchor retailers), then draw up some conceptual renderings to secure the financing. And if he gets the financing, then we'll see some meaningful renderings. A lot of this is dependent on how fast The 9 fills up and at what rents. If Stark's project comes together quickly, then that will be a strong affirmation that downtown has turned another corner.
From my research of looking for places....The 9 seems to be over 50% leased already.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on August 07, 2014, 10:33:54 PM
Quote
can someone post an aerial of the site as it looks now w/o the massing?
(http://i.imgur.com/mGtslyi.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on August 08, 2014, 12:49:37 AM
So, I wonder how this will tie in with the Ferrari dealership :wink:.

Huh, that was actually one of the first things I thought of- I actually think it makes development of that site quite a bit more feasible, as it is actually right across East 4th St. from Stark's project, and could be a continuation of the Huron retail frontage created by Stark's project- all the way to Ontario.  Of course, foot traffic isn't what sells Ferraris, as only the richest of the people rich enough to buy one can afford to do so as an impulse buy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on August 08, 2014, 01:29:22 AM
It may not help get the ferrari brand, but it might help justify the construction of such a large building. 

Get the casino across the street and that ontario-huron intersection will be cookin with gas.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on August 08, 2014, 06:37:10 AM
I never thought I'd see the day when this site would see a potential redevelopment much less people wringing their hands about the potential loss of the former Domino Lounge (Nick's Sports bar). Architecturally, I don't see it as a great loss but the building has some interesting history when it comes to Cleveland's jazz scene: http://www.cleveland.oh.us/wmv_news/jazz136.htm (http://www.cleveland.oh.us/wmv_news/jazz136.htm)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 08, 2014, 09:22:33 AM
I hate to see any historic structures get demolished. But if sacrificing this otherwise inglorious building and the nasty parking structure behind it is the price for filling one of downtown's most notable parking craters (second only to the Public-Square/Warehouse District crater -- more like a dead sea), then I'll take it.

BTW, someone asked earlier if Stark can do this given his failure with Pesht. He most certainly does have the capacity. Consider that he invested $400 million on Crocker Park's initial phase (and continues to invest with the second-phase residential, a new hotel and American Greetings HQ), with a cost of construction in excess of $400 per square foot. That includes all the planning, site prep, legal costs, interest, etc. Downtown will be more expensive, perhaps $500 per square foot or higher. If Stark invested in nuCLEus the same $400 million he initially invested in Crocker Park, we could be looking at an 800,000-square-foot project. That's not to say this is what he has in mind. This development actually looks like two 20-story towers, connected by a backwards C-shaped shaped structure of about 10-15 stories. In terms of total floors, that's in the ballpark of a Key Tower which has 1.5 million square feet. So based only on a distant view of a massing, Stark's conceptual idea for this development appears to be about double the size of the initial phase of Crocker Park. And like I said, Crocker Park has been added onto a lot since with new residential, AG and the hotel. So I would think Stark has the capacity to bring off this project, which I would guess has a total investment somewhere in the $700 million to $800 million range. But this project is a big hail mary -- as is the lakefront development which is of similar scale and price tag. That project is being developed in phases, and Stark will surely have to to develop this site in phases too -- most likely starting with the low-level stuff on Prospect west of East 4th. The phasing of what he builds next will depend on what retail anchors he signs. He'll have to get retail anchors to get financing. No one is going to give Stark the financing based on speculation he'll fill the towers at the rents needed -- though The 9's leasing at its higher rates is certainly encouraging.

BTW, the phasing to build everything could take 10 years or so. I was covering Westlake from 1996-2005 for Sun Newspapers when Crocker Park's first phase (the retail core) was finished in 2004. The planning for Crocker Park started several years before that. It was a disgusting legal and PR battle with the Jacobs Group fighting it by funding a citizens group, Citizens for a Greener Westlake. But that fight was not the reason why the project is still being built more than a decade later. Cleveland isn't Kuala Lumpur, Dubai or even Chicago. It takes many years for a project's phasing to be completed in Greater Cleveland. Stark is in his 60s and fought cancer a decade ago. But I see at least one of his sons is following in his father's development footsteps. So there is a realistic chance this project will be nurtured over time.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on August 08, 2014, 09:33:14 AM
Looking at the massing, if we could bookend E4th with nuCLEus (can't believe I actually used that term) and 515 tower, downtown CLE would be in real good shape.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on August 08, 2014, 11:23:08 AM
I would trade 515 for a lakefront cluster.

That said, this project (w/ the dumb name) is such an unexpected delight!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mov2Ohio on August 08, 2014, 12:32:58 PM
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?

The graphic above is a massing, not a rendering. He'll use that to attract tenants (probably some anchor retailers), then draw up some conceptual renderings to secure the financing. And if he gets the financing, then we'll see some meaningful renderings. A lot of this is dependent on how fast The 9 fills up and at what rents. If Stark's project comes together quickly, then that will be a strong affirmation that downtown has turned another corner.
From my research of looking for places....The 9 seems to be over 50% leased already.

69% to be exact.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on August 08, 2014, 01:09:03 PM
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on August 08, 2014, 03:07:02 PM
I'm loving almost everything about this project, but I'm sort of disappointed to see that it looks like they will be tearing down the attractive little brick building facing Prospect. 

I think you're talking about the building with Mr. Albert's Men's World, with Nick's sports bar and that DNA rooftop club... yeah, I don't like losing a quirky little building like this because it adds to the unique, historic urban fabric of Prospect.  But I'd rather have this new development more.  Sometimes you've gotta give something to get something.

I agree that this new development has a lot more to give than that little brick building. But still, it's a nice handsome historic building. I wish they could just build on top of it and keep the facade. If we were in Europe, I'm sure that's what would be happening. But alas, we are not.

However, if the Harold Building is really going to be restored to its original state, then I guess it sort of cancels out the demolition. I was certain for the longest time that there was no saving that building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on August 08, 2014, 03:53:55 PM
It will be interesting to see what kind (and how much) retail Stark will be able to attract to this complex.  Nobody knows of course, but I'm assuming it would be on the ground level along Prospect, which will be interesting in terms of the historical association of retail to Euclid.  With the apartments going in at the May Co. building, the restoration of the Herold, along with Red, The Steakhouse, among other substantial developments, Prospect is becoming the Hot street downtown – amazing considering the dump/hooker haven it was not even 15 years ago.  I’d have expected the apartment tower at 515 to be developed before this, but we’ll take an all-new, luxury residential structure of this purported magnitude wherever we can get it…   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on August 08, 2014, 03:58:45 PM
Barrio will be a nice addition on that stretch as well. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 09, 2014, 08:42:29 AM
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.

American Greetings had no interest in being downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: STRIVE2THRIVE on August 09, 2014, 09:46:18 AM
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.

American Greetings had no interest in being downtown.
I bet in a few years when the downtown population has grown even more, especially with millenials American Greetings will regret not being downtown.  I think it was on this site that talked about how Progressive is recruiting young professionals showing them downtown and a lot of them love it, but not the fact that Progressive is out in the suburbs.  Can't help but think that would certainly apply to American Greetings' recruits.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on August 09, 2014, 10:11:29 AM
I hope whatever retail gets built is placed along East 4th between Prospect and Huron. Maybe even close the street to pedestrians only, like the current East 4th, but traffic considerations for The Q/Progressive Field might prevent it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on August 09, 2014, 10:17:45 AM
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.

American Greetings had no interest in being downtown.

And Lebron's not coming back, and the RNC is going to Dallas, and we will never add hundreds of new residences/hotels etc.
This is New Cleveland...all things are possible...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on August 09, 2014, 03:12:40 PM
If they had interest in moving downtown, they wouldn't have moved to westlake.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on August 10, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?

The graphic above is a massing, not a rendering. He'll use that to attract tenants (probably some anchor retailers), then draw up some conceptual renderings to secure the financing. And if he gets the financing, then we'll see some meaningful renderings. A lot of this is dependent on how fast The 9 fills up and at what rents. If Stark's project comes together quickly, then that will be a strong affirmation that downtown has turned another corner.
From my research of looking for places....The 9 seems to be over 50% leased already.

69% to be exact.

I received an email Friday stating "The 9 in downtown Cleveland is now officially 75% leased!"
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleveland on August 10, 2014, 09:38:31 PM
Holy Crap that was fast!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 11, 2014, 01:38:13 AM
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.

American Greetings had no interest in being downtown.

And Lebron's not coming back, and the RNC is going to Dallas, and we will never add hundreds of new residences/hotels etc.
This is New Cleveland...all things are possible...


Yes, they are. But American Greetings wanted to be downtown as much as Eaton did. Or Ferro. Downtown isn't for everyone and that's OK. We'll gladly take the ones who do want to be here.

Considering that downtown has Northeast Ohio's highest rents (for residential) and its lowest vacancies, the market continues to absorb tenants for projects like The 9 and hopefully new-construction projects nuCLEus too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: DM4 on August 11, 2014, 08:47:16 AM
^ I thought University Circle had the highest rents, followed by Beachwood, and then Downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on August 11, 2014, 09:20:18 AM
^ I thought University Circle had the highest rents, followed by Beachwood, and then Downtown.
While I'm sure it would be better for your theories if that were true...it changed in 2013.  From a KJP post..."Interesting.This 2013 apartment market analysis report for Greater Cleveland shows that the apartment submarket with the highest rents and lowest vacancy rates is "Central Cleveland."

http://www.mimginvestment.com/documents/resources/Cleveland_4Q13Apt.pdf

Submarket Vacancy Ranking

                                                             Vacancy     Y-O-Y Basis      Effective        Y-O-Y
Rank Submarket                                      Rate     Point Change       Rents       % Change
 1 Central Cleveland                                2.5%             80           $1,058             0.8%
 2 Lake County                                        3.0%               0              $743             6.3%
 3 Westlake/North Olmsted/Lorain Cnty  3.6%             50              $833             0.7%
 4 Parma/Middleburg Heights                   3.9%              0              $736              2.5%
 5 Strongsville/North Royalton/Medina     4.0%          240              $785              2.1%
 6 West Cleveland                                    4.7%          270              $702              0.4%
 7 East Cleveland                                     5.1%            90              $831              3.2%
 8 Beachwood/Mayfield                             5.3%         280              $926              5.9%
 9 Euclid                                                    7.0%         -90               $631            12.3%
10 Southeast Cleveland                           8.2%         470              $724               4.0%

###"

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24830.805.html#ixzz3A5aBxvGZ
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on August 11, 2014, 11:21:36 AM
so outside of the club its mostly that parking lot and garage? in that case, it looks like all systems are go for it.

at the very minimum its so nice to see a damn parking lot redeveloped for more appropriate city use again. of course its so much more than that. it will also be great to see stark really come through on downtown. i know he has been itching to for a long time. its like practice for the warehouse district lots.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: DM4 on August 11, 2014, 11:39:44 AM
^ I thought University Circle had the highest rents, followed by Beachwood, and then Downtown.
While I'm sure it would be better for your theories if that were true...it changed in 2013.  From a KJP post..."Interesting.This 2013 apartment market analysis report for Greater Cleveland shows that the apartment submarket with the highest rents and lowest vacancy rates is "Central Cleveland."

http://www.mimginvestment.com/documents/resources/Cleveland_4Q13Apt.pdf

Submarket Vacancy Ranking

                                                             Vacancy     Y-O-Y Basis      Effective        Y-O-Y
Rank Submarket                                      Rate     Point Change       Rents       % Change
 1 Central Cleveland                                2.5%             80           $1,058             0.8%
 2 Lake County                                        3.0%               0              $743             6.3%
 3 Westlake/North Olmsted/Lorain Cnty  3.6%             50              $833             0.7%
 4 Parma/Middleburg Heights                   3.9%              0              $736              2.5%
 5 Strongsville/North Royalton/Medina     4.0%          240              $785              2.1%
 6 West Cleveland                                    4.7%          270              $702              0.4%
 7 East Cleveland                                     5.1%            90              $831              3.2%
 8 Beachwood/Mayfield                             5.3%         280              $926              5.9%
 9 Euclid                                                    7.0%         -90               $631            12.3%
10 Southeast Cleveland                           8.2%         470              $724               4.0%

###"

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24830.805.html#ixzz3A5aBxvGZ

Im not quite sure what you are talking about, but I was just remembering what was stated in an article about uptown awhile ago. And Central Cleveland probably includes University Circle and other neighborhoods since those markets do not show up on that list anywhere. The list I found is older, from 2011 and has Beachwood at the top followed by Downtown/Flats. University Circle is not included on the list but is mentioned that the rents would be the highest in the region.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: DM4 on August 11, 2014, 12:20:50 PM
Ill have a hard time calling this project nuCLEus, but i'm extremely excited for this project.  Stark definitely is a man with connections, so if this project actually happens, I think we might finally see retail back downtown! Our other developers do a good job with projects, but don't seem to have the same connections Stark has. This could be a game changer for downtown if done correctly.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sky on August 21, 2014, 09:22:05 AM
 This is just speculation, but he must have a big anchor tenant who is interested in the site.  I wonder if there's any chance American Greetings will ditch the boring suburbs and consider this site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on August 21, 2014, 09:34:54 AM
This is just speculation, but he must have a big anchor tenant who is interested in the site.  I wonder if there's any chance American Greetings will ditch the boring suburbs and consider this site.
They're already planning on moving into a Stark development.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on August 21, 2014, 09:59:49 AM
This is just speculation, but he must have a big anchor tenant who is interested in the site.  I wonder if there's any chance American Greetings will ditch the boring suburbs and consider this site.
They're already planning on moving into a Stark development.

Getting a major corp like AG downtown would be a huge plus considering (if we're to believe reports) they almost departed from the Cleveland region entirely.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on August 21, 2014, 10:47:45 AM
Not sure how much we can read into the exact language, but Michelle's Cleveland.com piece implied that office space wasn't necessarily a key component of this project.  Didn't sound to me like an anchor office tenant was really driving this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on August 21, 2014, 11:24:26 AM
If Stark needs an anchor, it's going to come in the form of a retail portfolio for this project.  An anchor retailer with commitments from some smaller ones.  The apartments aren't much of a risk in Cleveland, depending on the price point. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jeremyck01 on August 21, 2014, 10:56:40 PM
This is just speculation, but he must have a big anchor tenant who is interested in the site.  I wonder if there's any chance American Greetings will ditch the boring suburbs and consider this site.

Can we nip this ridiculous and pointless speculation in the bud already?  This issue has been covered over and over in other threads.  AG is going into the Stark development at Crocker Park.  Period.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jborger on August 22, 2014, 12:17:37 PM
Is downtown population at a point yet where a significant national retailer could be lured to this project?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on August 22, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
I wouldn't complain if the mix of offices and retail were similar to Eaton Collection. 
What I do expect is national chain restaurants like Maggiano's, or PappaDeaux to be part of the mix.

What would be nice is if Trader Joe's, who is at both Eaton and Crocker Park, were part of the mix
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 22, 2014, 03:47:42 PM
Is downtown population at a point yet where a significant national retailer could be lured to this project?

I expect a national retailer, if different from what's at Steelyard, would draw from beyond downtown. If so, it would simultaneously bolster more residential development downtown (and nearby) as I think Heinen's has done for nuCLEus and some of the more recently proposed office building conversions. This is how a housing/retail market is ratcheted upward.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: eyehrtfood on September 03, 2014, 01:23:41 AM
Appears the Stark folks just added the below nuCLEus brochure (dated 9/2014) onto their site. It adds some additional details - including the "laneways" concept - into the mix. Interesting..

Find the brochure download on the left side of this page: http://starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

"nuCLEus will introduce laneways to downtown Cleveland, a unique form of urban place making originating in Melbourne, Australia. The laneway at nuCLEus will be a tight intimate space that offers al fresco eateries, one-off shops and cozy little bars, all nestled side-by-side in a unique alley setting with its own individual character and charm."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on September 03, 2014, 07:20:12 AM
Appears the Stark folks just added the below nuCLEus brochure (dated 9/2014) onto their site. It adds some additional details - including the "laneways" concept - into the mix. Interesting..

Find the brochure download on the left side of this page: http://starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

"nuCLEus will introduce laneways to downtown Cleveland, a unique form of urban place making originating in Melbourne, Australia. The laneway at nuCLEus will be a tight intimate space that offers al fresco eateries, one-off shops and cozy little bars, all nestled side-by-side in a unique alley setting with its own individual character and charm."

The Laneway concept will be a big hit here. It's just what downtown needs more of.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Confiteordeo on September 03, 2014, 07:32:37 AM
Appears the Stark folks just added the below nuCLEus brochure (dated 9/2014) onto their site. It adds some additional details - including the "laneways" concept - into the mix. Interesting..

Find the brochure download on the left side of this page: http://starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

"nuCLEus will introduce laneways to downtown Cleveland, a unique form of urban place making originating in Melbourne, Australia. The laneway at nuCLEus will be a tight intimate space that offers al fresco eateries, one-off shops and cozy little bars, all nestled side-by-side in a unique alley setting with its own individual character and charm."

Am I seeing things, or does page 9 of the brochure show a tower on 515 Euclid?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: musky on September 03, 2014, 09:21:39 AM
I'm seeing the same thing
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on September 03, 2014, 09:31:31 AM
Any guesses on height?  I realize its just a conceptual placeholder but it does look quite tall. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on September 03, 2014, 09:57:19 AM
Any guesses on height?  I realize its just a conceptual placeholder but it does look quite tall. 
I'd guess mid-200's.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on September 03, 2014, 09:59:39 AM
Any guesses on height?  I realize its just a conceptual placeholder but it does look quite tall. 
I'd guess mid-200's.

Are you referring to the grey/light blue/neon green structure? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on September 03, 2014, 10:01:42 AM
ATT Huron Road is 365ft*, so it's a bit more than that. (*Wikipedia)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on September 03, 2014, 10:08:01 AM
Any guesses on height?  I realize its just a conceptual placeholder but it does look quite tall. 
I'd guess mid-200's.

Are you referring to the grey/light blue/neon green structure? 
I assumed the question was directed to 515 Euclid. I believe I guessed 380 a page or two back for the taller Nucleus building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Niko on September 03, 2014, 10:18:11 AM
Interesting that the picture on stark's site shows the May Co. building as a public parking garage.  I didn't think that was confirmed.

(http://starkenterprises.prod3.connectinsivia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nuCLEus_EmailVersion.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on September 03, 2014, 11:32:10 AM
The original image a month or so back showed a completed 515 structure also.  He may have received an option to develop this also.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on September 03, 2014, 11:40:11 AM
If Ohio Bell is 365', the new tower on Huron is closer to 450' as shown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on September 03, 2014, 11:44:02 AM
Would be nice to eventually fill in that lot where the Hippodrome was on Euclid, and then on the Prospect side.  That would eliminate almost every empty lot between Public Square to Playhouse Square in the currently defined density of Downtown (only the lot across from Calfee, the one next to the Union Club and a few small one would remain).  Hey Stark, pick all those up too...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on September 03, 2014, 11:53:25 AM
It looks at least 450' and maybe even as tall as the Erieview (529').  Another five hundred footer would be nice!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on September 03, 2014, 01:30:26 PM
Appears the Stark folks just added the below nuCLEus brochure (dated 9/2014) onto their site. It adds some additional details - including the "laneways" concept - into the mix. Interesting..

Find the brochure download on the left side of this page: http://starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

"nuCLEus will introduce laneways to downtown Cleveland, a unique form of urban place making originating in Melbourne, Australia. The laneway at nuCLEus will be a tight intimate space that offers al fresco eateries, one-off shops and cozy little bars, all nestled side-by-side in a unique alley setting with its own individual character and charm."

So, is E. 4th a laneway?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on September 03, 2014, 02:01:31 PM
^ no it's to the right of the "s" in nuCLEus.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Zak on September 03, 2014, 02:54:52 PM
^ no it's to the right of the "s" in nuCLEus.

Isn't it to the left of the "n"?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on September 03, 2014, 03:01:01 PM
^no that is e 4th
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on September 03, 2014, 03:04:26 PM
It looks like the section of E. 4th between Prospect and Huron will remain a vehicular street while the laneway is the passage to the east.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on September 03, 2014, 03:06:53 PM
Appears the Stark folks just added the below nuCLEus brochure (dated 9/2014) onto their site. It adds some additional details - including the "laneways" concept - into the mix. Interesting..

Find the brochure download on the left side of this page: http://starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

"nuCLEus will introduce laneways to downtown Cleveland, a unique form of urban place making originating in Melbourne, Australia. The laneway at nuCLEus will be a tight intimate space that offers al fresco eateries, one-off shops and cozy little bars, all nestled side-by-side in a unique alley setting with its own individual character and charm."

So, is E. 4th a laneway?

Similar, but slightly different in spirit.  Laneways are about reclaiming utilitarian alleys as intimate pedestrian spaces.  East 4th has a great scale, but is a conventional street in the sense that its buildings have normal storefronts.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on September 03, 2014, 03:15:33 PM
The Melbourne laneways....

Open-air:
(http://www.fabulous-femme.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/melbourne-laneway-057.jpg)

Enclosed:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3693/11317927773_4ea77afab4_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on September 03, 2014, 03:40:14 PM
The brochure says opening 2016? That doesn't seem realistic to me at all. They need to get started now if they want to be finished by then. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gruver on September 03, 2014, 03:43:08 PM
Did anyone else note that page 10 of the Stark nuCLEus brochure appears to show a build-out on the upper floors of Euclid Avenue's 515 Garage?   Any info?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on September 03, 2014, 04:41:13 PM
The brochure says opening 2016? That doesn't seem realistic to me at all. They need to get started now if they want to be finished by then. Any thoughts?

Well it better be.
Again, there isgoing to be a captive audience in the summer of 2016 that will need things and will want to spend and will need things and will want to spend, and did i menton they will want to spend and they will need things?
ANd right now downtown... there is very little to buy
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on September 03, 2014, 04:47:26 PM
The brochure says opening 2016? That doesn't seem realistic to me at all. They need to get started now if they want to be finished by then. Any thoughts?
My guess is that they will build in stages, with the first section opening in 2016.  If it's something like single story restaurants, the timeline is doable
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on September 03, 2014, 04:59:33 PM
The laneway will be the E.6th street sidewalk that takes you to gateway, I assume.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on September 03, 2014, 05:25:00 PM
Did anyone else note that page 10 of the Stark nuCLEus brochure appears to show a build-out on the upper floors of Euclid Avenue's 515 Garage?   Any info?

Several folks discussed it upthread, but we do have a 515 Euclid thread in completed/abandoned projects. (hint hint)

The laneway will be the E.6th street sidewalk that takes you to gateway, I assume.

If so, I like this centuries-old concept which is from Quebec City -- perhaps North America's most European city....

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EZGstIV0HcE/UYae19SXBzI/AAAAAAAAg5E/YfjV9T2b0P8/s1600/DSC_0347.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on September 03, 2014, 06:55:47 PM
There will be great views of the tower from Progressive field.

Would the laneways be between the two buildings?  That would make the most sense.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on September 03, 2014, 06:57:31 PM
I was playing around with Google Sketchup earlier, and for the heck of it I built a little mockup of the tallest NuCLEus tower and placed it in Google Earth, just to see what a ~450 foot building in that area would look like in relation to the skyline. Here are a few renders.

(apologies in advance for the 50's-O-Rama look of the tower, I wanted to use a texture that would make it stand out in the skyline, and this was the best I could find)

From Progressive Field: http://i.imgur.com/HdvJOb1.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/HdvJOb1.jpg)
From near the Prospect/Huron intersection: http://i.imgur.com/VZX5OsS.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/VZX5OsS.jpg)
From the Hope Memorial Bridge: http://i.imgur.com/BvmIPUT.png (http://i.imgur.com/BvmIPUT.png)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on September 03, 2014, 07:04:27 PM
Ok, I don't think I really understand what a laneway is.  The photos of the Melbourne laneway looks cramped and on the inside of a mall (second photo).  How is a laneway different than E4th other than it being skinnier?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on September 03, 2014, 07:13:02 PM
^If you are interested in Stark Enterprises take on it I would direct you to the brochure  where they give their description
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on September 03, 2014, 07:17:29 PM
I was playing around with Google Sketchup earlier, and for the heck of it I built a little mockup of the tallest NuCLEus tower and placed it in Google Earth, just to see what a ~450 foot building in that area would look like in relation to the skyline. Here are a few renders.

(apologies in advance for the 50's-O-Rama look of the tower, I wanted to use a texture that would make it stand out in the skyline, and this was the best I could find)

From Progressive Field: http://i.imgur.com/HdvJOb1.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/HdvJOb1.jpg)
From near the Prospect/Huron intersection: http://i.imgur.com/VZX5OsS.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/VZX5OsS.jpg)
From the Hope Memorial Bridge: http://i.imgur.com/BvmIPUT.png (http://i.imgur.com/BvmIPUT.png)

Nice massings!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on September 03, 2014, 08:18:26 PM
I'm guessing the laneway concept is more like an old fashion arcade, of which we have two already with one of them on life support and the other doing alright at the expense of the first -- The Arcade and 5th Street Arcades.

edit: Corrected name of The Arcade,  as somebody pointed out below.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on September 03, 2014, 11:47:42 PM
^If you are interested in Stark Enterprises take on it I would direct you to the brochure  where they give their description

Well, it's not really their take, seeing as they plagiarized a Melbourne tourism site for their description: http://www.thatsmelbourne.com.au/Placestogo/LanewaysandArcades/Pages/LanewaysandArcades.aspx.  Talk about lazy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on September 04, 2014, 12:16:26 AM
Appears the Stark folks just added the below nuCLEus brochure (dated 9/2014) onto their site. It adds some additional details - including the "laneways" concept - into the mix. Interesting..

Find the brochure download on the left side of this page: http://starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

"nuCLEus will introduce laneways to downtown Cleveland, a unique form of urban place making originating in Melbourne, Australia. The laneway at nuCLEus will be a tight intimate space that offers al fresco eateries, one-off shops and cozy little bars, all nestled side-by-side in a unique alley setting with its own individual character and charm."

So, is E. 4th a laneway?

Similar, but slightly different in spirit.  Laneways are about reclaiming utilitarian alleys as intimate pedestrian spaces.  East 4th has a great scale, but is a conventional street in the sense that its buildings have normal storefronts.

Similarly it would be cool for Barn Ct. off of E 9th by The 9 to turn into a laneway as well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TMH on September 04, 2014, 06:24:36 AM
The Grand Arcade is a condominium building in the Warehouse District. I think the Arcade spanning Euclid Ave. and Superior Ave. is called The Old Arcade.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on September 04, 2014, 06:29:55 AM
^ It's the Colonial Arcade.  C'mon y'all!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TMH on September 04, 2014, 07:22:51 AM
No, the Colonial and Euclid Arcades are now the 5th Street Arcade.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on September 04, 2014, 08:59:32 AM
The Grand Arcade is a condominium building in the Warehouse District. I think the Arcade spanning Euclid Ave. and Superior Ave. is called The Old Arcade.

Apologizes for continuing to go off topic, but the arcade between Euclid and Superior is simply "The Arcade."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on September 04, 2014, 09:07:34 AM
I've been lied to all my life.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on September 04, 2014, 09:47:19 AM
The Melbourne laneways....

Open-air:
(http://www.fabulous-femme.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/melbourne-laneway-057.jpg)

Perhaps this is a design concept that could warrant wider use around the city re: wind protection in colder months?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on September 04, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
The Melbourne laneways....

Open-air:
(http://www.fabulous-femme.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/melbourne-laneway-057.jpg)

Perhaps this is a design concept that could warrant wider use around the city re: wind protection in colder months?


I like it.  It gives a sort of European feel in the old medieval parts of cities....Florence, Rome, London etc.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ChiCleveKid on September 04, 2014, 01:16:42 PM
Please happen with that height...
And can we still have the Ferrari Tower?

Fingers more than crossed...!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jborger on September 04, 2014, 01:22:41 PM
I was playing around with Google Sketchup earlier, and for the heck of it I built a little mockup of the tallest NuCLEus tower and placed it in Google Earth, just to see what a ~450 foot building in that area would look like in relation to the skyline. Here are a few renders.

Awesome!  Thanks for taking the time to do that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on September 04, 2014, 01:34:12 PM
The Melbourne laneways....

Open-air:


Perhaps this is a design concept that could warrant wider use around the city re: wind protection in colder months?


I like it.  It gives a sort of European feel in the old medieval parts of cities....Florence, Rome, London etc.

And it's a nice, density driving change-up from the more suburban style developments going on (ie Flats East Bank, etc.).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on September 04, 2014, 11:25:46 PM
Thanks for the feedback re: the massings KJP and jborger. Sketchup is a fun little program to make this sort of thing!

One thing I wonder regarding the laneways is how crowded they will be before and after games and other events at the Gateway complex. It could end up being a good thing (lots of foot traffic in a tight-knit urban retail environment) or a bad thing (a confined area becoming TOO crowded).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on September 05, 2014, 12:01:24 AM
[Insert joke hear about pathetic Indians attendance]
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: biker16 on September 05, 2014, 09:37:10 AM
Discalimer!!!!!

I like what the project does for the parking lot.

BUT

I think the buildings are too big for the Site and lack the human scale that the buildings around it have.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on September 05, 2014, 09:42:12 AM
Without having detailed designs there's really no way of knowing how it'll feel for a pedestrian. Size of the building doesn't necessarily correlate to pedestrian scale. A 400 foot tall building can feel more human scaled than a two story building if designed properly. Setbacks, a ground level that isn't just long and flat, a good mix of uses, etc. can all make a large building feel properly scaled to the human user. Hopefully we see that from this project, especially if they're going for the laneways concept since that's dependent on proper scaling.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ChiCleveKid on September 05, 2014, 10:04:18 AM
I know the 515 Euc building is showing up on these massings for Stark - but it also was on the Ferrari Tower plan too.
Did I miss some news?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on September 05, 2014, 11:09:17 AM
Discalimer!!!!!

I like what the project does for the parking lot.

BUT

I think the buildings are too big for the Site and lack the human scale that the buildings around it have.



Stark seems to feel this scale of structure is necessary to generate enough revenue to retire the debt from the property's large purchase price. If he could higher rents instead to offer buildings of lesser scale, I suspect he would.

I know the 515 Euc building is showing up on these massings for Stark - but it also was on the Ferrari Tower plan too.
Did I miss some news?

You didn't miss anything. There's been no news. I searched the web for any hint of any movement on it and found nothing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on September 05, 2014, 01:33:07 PM
Discalimer!!!!!

I like what the project does for the parking lot.

BUT

I think the buildings are too big for the Site and lack the human scale that the buildings around it have.


I always imagined the e4th side being made to look like the euclid-prospect segment with a tall tower behind it. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: simplythis on September 10, 2014, 12:44:22 AM
I heard there will be some announcement on this development next month. http://www.starkenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nuCLEus_EmailVersion.pdf
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on September 10, 2014, 12:46:38 AM
I heard there will be some announcement on this development next month. http://www.starkenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/nuCLEus_EmailVersion.pdf

If I may be so nosy, what did you hear and where did you hear it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: simplythis on September 10, 2014, 12:51:04 AM
another forum board. http://www.city-data.com/forum/cleveland/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on September 10, 2014, 06:57:52 AM
^I'd take that with a grain of salt (city-data.com forums, specifically).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on September 19, 2014, 12:55:17 PM
So I just checked the Cuyahoga County Fiscal Officer's website and I am happy to announce that it looks like the L&R portfolio has transferred to some Stark subsidiaries!!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on September 19, 2014, 01:30:31 PM
So I just checked the Cuyahoga County Fiscal Officer's website and I am happy to announce that it looks like the L&R portfolio has transferred to some Stark subsidiaries!!!!

It begins. :)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on September 19, 2014, 01:36:47 PM
The company is Gateway Huron LLC and the title transfer was recorded Sept. 18. It says the land at the SE corner of East 4th and Prospect sold for $6.5 million. The land was bought three years earlier for $9.4 million.

The land on the SW corner of 4th and Prospect transferred the same day and sold for $500,000. The prior owner LR 310 PROSPECT INVESTORS LLC bought it in 2008 for $532,335.

I haven't checked all the parcels in the area, but it sounds like Stark got some good deals.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on September 19, 2014, 03:07:25 PM
Thanks for the information guys!  Is the SW corner parcel mentioned above is the corner where L&R wanted to construct the two story building with the huge video board?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on September 19, 2014, 06:04:45 PM
Downtown Cleveland parking portfolio sells for $26 million, setting stage for Stark Enterprises project

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Northeast Ohio investors paid $26 million this week for a downtown Cleveland parking portfolio, laying groundwork for a major development project in the city's Gateway District.

Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd. bought five properties Thursday from the L&R Group of Companies of California, public records show. In separate transactions, the investors paid other landowners an additional $2.75 million for two small parcels that round out a development site just north of Quicken Loans Arena.


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/09/downtown_cleveland_parking_por.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on September 19, 2014, 06:21:43 PM
Wow. $26 million.

Good riddance L&R.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on September 19, 2014, 09:08:43 PM
And great job UrbanOhio (specifically SixthCity!) for scooping the PD -- possibly even giving Michelle a heads-up on the transactions.

BTW, its great to see the Warehouse District parcels were part of this transaction too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on September 20, 2014, 12:10:00 AM
And great job UrbanOhio (specifically SixthCity!) for scooping the PD -- possibly even giving Michelle a heads-up on the transactions.

BTW, its great to see the Warehouse District parcels were part of this transaction too.

Thanks KJP but in the interest of full disclosure - it was Michelle who scooped me.  I ran into her at the City Planning Commission meeting this morning and we talked for awhile.  She mentioned that the sale was supposed to close on the 18th.  I immediately went home and checked and she was correct.  No matter how good I think I am, I will always be a step behind her.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 02, 2014, 02:03:42 PM
Stark’s project aims to give Cleveland new ‘face’
Posted: Thursday, October 2, 2014 12:00 pm
JACQUELINE MITCHELL | STAFF REPORTER
jmitchell@cjn.org

“As the legend goes, when the phoenix resurrects from the flames, she is even more beautiful than before,” reads the Danielle LaPorte quote – chosen to describe the burgeoning renaissance of Cleveland – that is featured prominently in the preliminary materials outlining nucleus, Stark Enterprises’ latest downtown venture.

nuCLEus, Stark’s modern shopping hub and residential area, will be situated in the center of the city. The project will cost an estimated $350 million, with 500 apartments, a minimum of 200,000 square feet of office space and a goal of attracting national restaurants and retailers.

Bob Stark, president and CEO of Stark Enterprises of Cleveland, said the company is expecting construction to commence after the first of the new year.

READ MORE AT:
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/special_sections/article_6c209c4a-4994-11e4-ba95-eb095b820e4e.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co
Title: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on October 02, 2014, 02:18:28 PM
Stark’s project aims to give Cleveland new ‘face’
Posted: Thursday, October 2, 2014 12:00 pm
JACQUELINE MITCHELL | STAFF REPORTER
jmitchell@cjn.org

“As the legend goes, when the phoenix resurrects from the flames, she is even more beautiful than before,” reads the Danielle LaPorte quote – chosen to describe the burgeoning renaissance of Cleveland – that is featured prominently in the preliminary materials outlining nucleus, Stark Enterprises’ latest downtown venture.

nuCLEus, Stark’s modern shopping hub and residential area, will be situated in the center of the city. The project will cost an estimated $350 million, with 500 apartments, a minimum of 200,000 square feet of office space and a goal of attracting national restaurants and retailers.

Bob Stark, president and CEO of Stark Enterprises of Cleveland, said the company is expecting construction to commence after the first of the new year.

READ MORE AT:
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/special_sections/article_6c209c4a-4994-11e4-ba95-eb095b820e4e.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co

He certainly has me excited about this project... Interesting comment about  the "several high-rises that will be visible from everywhere in the city".  Can't wait to see some renderings
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on October 02, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
500 apartments! Even if they're spread amongst several buildings at that parcel, it'll still be impressive. 1717 East Ninth, by comparison, will have 223 apartments.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on October 02, 2014, 06:26:01 PM
What intrigues me is he said he expects construction to start after the first of the year.  That's a crazy fast timeline.  Do we know who the architect and engineer is for the project?  If that is the case, I would expect to se plans in design review shortly. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on October 02, 2014, 06:32:05 PM
^I find this hard to believe unless they are just going to start on the rehab of those Prospect Buildings that were involved in that lawsuit.  I was under the impression they are still looking for investors for the big project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on October 02, 2014, 07:05:02 PM
(http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o725/NYCnMore/random/null_zps629556b1.jpg) (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/NYCnMore/media/random/null_zps629556b1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on October 02, 2014, 09:35:52 PM
Regarding the timetable for the Stark project. This is what Stark indicated in a recent article from @mjarboe.

Our intention is to open up a portion of this development, probably most of the parking part of it, before the Republican National Convention," Stark said, "and then open the rest of it up in late 2016 or the spring of 2017

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/09/downtown_cleveland_parking_por.html#incart_river

So we shall see.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on October 03, 2014, 12:59:01 AM
Well, if I had to pick one thing Downtown needs, it's retail.  He seems like just the man to bring it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on October 17, 2014, 06:13:34 PM
Not if they want to see the market stay in the doldrums. Sometimes, developers need to push the market a little. Too bad FCE doesn't take this approach. There is a risk in it, but isn't that what growing is all about?

I was just talking with someone about what site Stark is eyeballing. The article says "between Huron and Prospect." The only underutilized sites I can think of between those two streets is the section east of Ontario to the Pointe at Gateway. There are two large surface parking lots in the area, one of the Gateway parking decks and several smaller buildings, including Myers University. See the lower-center portion of MayDay's picture....

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/tackle/tackle20.jpg)

To fit millions of square feet of anything into that small space (assuming that is the proposed space), Stark would have to build some pretty tall buildings and a lot of them. For comparison, Key Tower is 1.538 million square feet. Stark is talking 10 million to 11 million square feet. That's about seven Key Towers, or 14 towers in the range of 25-30 stories. It's also about 4,000 residences, if my math is right (which needs double-checking!). At current construction costs per square foot, that's roughly $1.6 billion, putting it on par with the Terminal Tower complex of 1930 and all its railroad access routes. Yet, Stark and the Carney Family built Crocker Park for $420 million, so it's not that big of a leap for Stark to propose a $1.6 billion project.

Hell, I say go for it.

KJP

Looks like KJP had the inside scoop on this nearly a decade ago!  Found this in the thread Re: Downtown Cleveland development pitched by Crocker Park builder

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2591.0.html#ixzz3GRUkVikS
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on October 17, 2014, 07:11:56 PM
^ tgat is a gem of a find!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mildtraumatic on October 17, 2014, 08:48:47 PM
10 million sq. feet! Build it they will come!!! :-D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 17, 2014, 11:07:03 PM
10 million sq. feet! Build it they will come!!! :-D

Nu-CLE-us won't be that big. But it will have to be a vertical development to produce a revenue stream large enough to retire the debt he's incurred to buy those parking lots.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on October 18, 2014, 09:17:00 AM
Considering he wants to cram retail, offices, public parking and 500 apartments in that parcel, it would definitely have to be vertical.

For speculation's sake, how tall would a 500 unit residential building be, assuming it would be about half the size of the parcel (like the massings suggest) and all of the units are the size of an average downtown apartment?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 18, 2014, 09:47:22 AM
Considering he wants to cram retail, offices, public parking and 500 apartments in that parcel, it would definitely have to be vertical.

For speculation's sake, how tall would a 500 unit residential building be, assuming it would be about half the size of the parcel (like the massings suggest) and all of the units are the size of an average downtown apartment?

Some comparisons....
Residences at 668: 8 stories - 232 apartments
Schofield Building: 14 stories - 122 hotel rooms/55 apartments
Crittenden Court: 17 stories - 208 apartments
Residences at 1717: 21 stories - 223 apartments
Reserve Square: 23 stories each tower - 460 +/- apartments


Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on October 18, 2014, 10:18:17 AM
^a 40-50 story residential building---with some floors apartments and the higher floors condos--- with balconies throughout the building would be so very sweet. I'd buy a unit on the 45th floor in a second. (Though I wouldn't pay the same money to just rent one on the 45th floor.)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on October 18, 2014, 10:25:36 AM
Thanks for that KJP. Definitely a lot of variances, especially between the 1717 and the 668; similar number of units but vastly different heights.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on October 18, 2014, 11:01:48 AM
Considering he wants to cram retail, offices, public parking and 500 apartments in that parcel, it would definitely have to be vertical.

For speculation's sake, how tall would a 500 unit residential building be, assuming it would be about half the size of the parcel (like the massings suggest) and all of the units are the size of an average downtown apartment?

Some comparisons....
Residences at 668: 8 stories - 232 apartments
Schofield Building: 14 stories - 122 hotel rooms/55 apartments
Crittenden Court: 17 stories - 208 apartments
Residences at 1717: 21 stories - 223 apartments
Reserve Square: 23 stories each tower - 460 +/- apartments




Are those building the same or approximate footprint at Nucleus?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 19, 2014, 08:44:38 PM
Are those building the same or approximate footprint at Nucleus?

Most are much smaller. The totality of Reserve Square's (450'x350') footprint is a little bit larger than nu-CLE-us' (430'x275') and it has fewer apartments (460) in two 23-story towers connected by a five-level parking deck than what nu-CLE-us would have.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clevecane on October 19, 2014, 11:08:48 PM
Are those building the same or approximate footprint at Nucleus?

Most are much smaller. The totality of Reserve Square's (450'x350') footprint is a little bit larger than nu-CLE-us' (430'x275') and it has fewer apartments (460) in two 23-story towers connected by a five-level parking deck than what nu-CLE-us would have.

KJP, is that the totality of NuCLEus' footprint or just the half the massing sits on? Sounds like it could be 40+ stories if he wants all the residential in a single building, especially if he's having apartments larger than the meager ones at Reserve.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 20, 2014, 10:10:59 AM
KJP, is that the totality of NuCLEus' footprint or just the half the massing sits on? Sounds like it could be 40+ stories if he wants all the residential in a single building, especially if he's having apartments larger than the meager ones at Reserve.

That's the entirety of the property Stark acquired east of East 4th, including the retail frontage on Prospect and the parking deck on Huron, both of which are to be razed. I measured from halfway down the Prospect frontage to halfway down the Huron frontage, and from halfway between Prospect/Huron on East 4th to the eastern edge of the property midway between Prospect/Huron.

It didn't include any of the property west of East 4th fronting Prospect that he acquired. That could add about 40-60 apartments to the total.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on October 30, 2014, 12:31:53 PM

Nucleus 'leasing' signs went up last night

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/pwmcleveland/baa/photo357_zps43f11819.jpg)

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/pwmcleveland/baa/photo356_zps1d44365c.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on October 30, 2014, 12:56:14 PM
Exciting and Perfect timing with National attention on that site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ML11 on October 31, 2014, 10:46:50 AM
"But where will all the people gather for once-in-a-generation pregame Cavs concerts once they develop that surface lot??"  -- Cleveland.com commenter
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on October 31, 2014, 12:00:58 PM
"But where will all the people gather for once-in-a-generation pregame Cavs concerts once they develop that surface lot??"  -- Cleveland.com commenter

Even though it was cleveland.bomb, I'm sure EVEN HE/SHE was kidding.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 01, 2014, 12:16:20 PM
So is this the start of demolition? A permit issued regarding the garage on the nuCleus site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 01, 2014, 12:20:14 PM
Also the nuCleus filing with the SEC.
http://www.secinfo.com/d1FgDx.nc.htm
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on November 01, 2014, 07:56:45 PM
Also the nuCleus filing with the SEC.
http://www.secinfo.com/d1FgDx.nc.htm

So according to Section 13 they offered $6.5 million in equity in the project and they have sold all but $20k.  If that's not good news, I'm not sure what is.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 01, 2014, 08:25:19 PM
Let's start with the fact that I have absolutely no knowledge of securities and SEC regs....with that....any idea why the offering is so small on such a large project?  Will there be future offerings?  If yes, why multiple offerings?  Like I said I have no clue.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 02, 2014, 07:36:20 AM
^This might be the offering for only the Jdek entity in the JV.  Without knowing the full deal structure, it's tough to make much from this, other than the fact that something is actually happening (which is good).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 04, 2014, 03:20:54 PM
Awesome. Stark never got this far with Pesht! Of course, Stark didn't own the land for Pesht. Oh, and he wants Planning Commission's OK to go to 31 stories.....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/index.php

City Planning Commission
Agenda for November 7, 2014

Ordinance No. 1410-14(Ward 3/Councilmember Cimperman): Authorizing the Commissioner of Purchases and Supplies to acquire and reconvey properties presently owned by Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee, located on Prospect and Huron Avenues for the purpose of entering into the chain-of-title prior to the adopton of tax increment financing legislation authorized under Section 5709.41 of the Revised Code; and authorizing an agreement with Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee.

Ooops, more....

DOWNTOWN/FLATS DESIGN REVIEW

6.   DF2014-110 - nuCLEus Mixed-Use Project: Concept Approval
Project Address: 320-360 Prospect Avenue
Project Representative: Steve Coven, Stark Enterprises

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_05.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_06.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_01.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_02.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_03.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_04.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_07.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_08.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_09.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_10.jpg)

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_11.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 04, 2014, 03:29:35 PM
Awesome. Stark never got this far with Pesht! Of course, Stark didn't own the land for Pesht. Oh, and he wants Planning Commission's OK to go to 31 stories.....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/index.php

City Planning Commission
Agenda for November 7, 2014

Ordinance No. 1410-14(Ward 3/Councilmember Cimperman): Authorizing the Commissioner of Purchases and Supplies to acquire and reconvey properties presently owned by Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee, located on Prospect and Huron Avenues for the purpose of entering into the chain-of-title prior to the adopton of tax increment financing legislation authorized under Section 5709.41 of the Revised Code; and authorizing an agreement with Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee.



Wonder what "NYC style monumental arch and gate" means.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 04, 2014, 03:31:29 PM
No need to include all the graphics again in your quote. Makes for slower loading. Thanks!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YO to the CLE on November 04, 2014, 03:33:47 PM
We're about to get a massive development removing one of the more prominently ugly lots downtown...ohh and we're getting a nice new perrrrtyy tower to go with it...No big deal at all.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 04, 2014, 03:35:25 PM
No need to include all the graphics again in your quote. Makes for slower loading.

Yes, I know. I hit 'quote' before you added them to your post. And then immediately edited my post to remove them when I noticed it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 04, 2014, 03:39:45 PM
Curious though as to why there aren't any renderings out. Isn't it typical for projects like this to have some kind of rendering at this stage in the process?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on November 04, 2014, 03:40:32 PM
I'm pretty mixed on this.  It would be a lot better if they figured out how to get the parking entirely wrapped in apartments and offices, instead of having massive 6+ level parking garages just above street level, a la Florida.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 04, 2014, 03:42:15 PM
Curious though as to why there aren't any renderings out. Isn't it typical for projects like this to have some kind of rendering at this stage in the process?

The fact that Stark is presenting massings to CPC tells me he wants to get their input and consensus on the scale of this project. After he gets their feedback on what they'll likely accept, then I suspect he'll spend money on renderings. When he gets major tenants, then he'll advance the design into more detailed engineering.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 04, 2014, 03:49:57 PM
I'm pretty mixed on this.  It would be a lot better if they figured out how to get the parking entirely wrapped in apartments and offices, instead of having massive 6+ level parking garages just above street level, a la Florida.

Fortunately he will have ground-level uses other than parking. Some of the retail offerings could be pretty significant -- up to 75,000 square feet in leasable area. But that's also divisible as is shown below. Also, I'm interested to see that he proposes to turn East 4th south of Prospect into a pedestrian corridor (except for a driveway off Huron), in addition to the laneway he promised. One graphic I'll repost from the previous page is the ground-level concept...

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_08.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: anthony battaglia on November 04, 2014, 03:52:50 PM
How tall will the 31 floor tower be?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 04, 2014, 03:53:39 PM
How tall will the 31 floor tower be?

31 stories tall. Sorry, couldn't resist.....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 04, 2014, 04:03:12 PM
How tall will the 31 floor tower be?

31 stories tall. Sorry, couldn't resist.....
My response was going to be as tall as the market demands.

My guess however would be about 425'
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on November 04, 2014, 04:04:54 PM
It's a good question.  With the mix-use, could the floor sizes vary a bit?  It could be as short as 300ft and as tall as 500ft, I would guess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 04, 2014, 04:24:17 PM
Wow! What a packed agenda. Yeah nothing going on in Cleveland. Man I hope he is getting interest from retailers, he must be. The apartment/office component I believe will fill up. I am worried about the retail. Also I hope the TIF isn't a problem. This is fantastic...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on November 04, 2014, 04:28:36 PM
I agree the parking arrangement is a bit disappointing. That's like 900-1000 new spots by my rough estimating. But at least here it makes sense with the lot sizes. In retrospect the way Pesht was thought up was ridiculous.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on November 04, 2014, 06:32:44 PM
Remember that the sheer amount of parking spaces is not only for the Stark development, but for The Q/Progressive Field as well. The garage that's currently there is the go-to parking area for sporting/concert events.

I'm hazarding a guess that Stark wants a grocery store in that 20,000-sf space? A bit tight for a big full-service grocer, but doable.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on November 04, 2014, 06:55:08 PM
Remember that the sheer amount of parking spaces is not only for the Stark development, but for The Q/Progressive Field as well. The garage that's currently there is the go-to parking area for sporting/concert events.

I'm hazarding a guess that Stark wants a grocery store in that 20,000-sf space? A bit tight for a big full-service grocer, but doable.

Really?... with Heinen's going in a few blocks away?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 04, 2014, 06:58:51 PM
Remember that the sheer amount of parking spaces is not only for the Stark development, but for The Q/Progressive Field as well. The garage that's currently there is the go-to parking area for sporting/concert events.

I'm hazarding a guess that Stark wants a grocery store in that 20,000-sf space? A bit tight for a big full-service grocer, but doable.

Really?... with Heinen's going in a few blocks away?

Hard to imagine a national grocery chain coming in with a Heinen's there. I think Heinen's took the risk partly because of a sense of civic responsibility. Even if downtown would reach 20,000 population in the coming years, still hard to imagine two grocery stores.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on November 04, 2014, 06:59:43 PM
City Target?
Title: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on November 04, 2014, 07:11:07 PM
City Target?
too small. I think the average CityTarget is about 80,000 sq. ft.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 04, 2014, 07:20:09 PM
City Target?
too small. I think the average CityTarget is about 80,000 sq. ft.

80,000 sq. ft is on the very small side for a CityTarget too
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 04, 2014, 07:21:57 PM
^Actually, Target is now experimenting with large urban stores- a new one in a Boston high rise will be 160K sf (bigger than a typical suburban one).
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/10/10/target-tries-new-bigger-strategy-for-fenway-area-store/NawRMoCeTDQUX7WAUqaZ7H/story.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on November 04, 2014, 07:38:07 PM
It's a good question.  With the mix-use, could the floor sizes vary a bit?  It could be as short as 300ft and as tall as 500ft, I would guess.

Since there are 13!! floors of parking and another 11 stories of residential, I would guess toward the lower end, maybe 350 ft.  Unless, there is an architectural element at the top.  Pretty disappointing given the massing looks like between 450 -500 ft.  And 13 floors of parking???
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on November 04, 2014, 08:29:37 PM
How long would it take to drive up 13 floors to park? Round and round and round...haha
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on November 04, 2014, 08:34:24 PM

How long would it take to drive up 13 floors to park? Round and round and round...haha

That's what I was thinking! I park on the fourth floor at work and even that is exasperating.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on November 04, 2014, 09:13:33 PM
Gah, I forgot about the The 9's Heinen's being so close by.  :-o Still, it's rather optimistic of Stark to plan such a large storefront, because there's not much else, retail-wise, you can put in such a large space.

Besides a Planet Fitness (yuck).

Speaking of Target, they've been rolling out a "micro" format store called TargetExpress, which range from 12,000 to 20,000 square feet. From what I've read on them, they seem to be geared more towards a general merchandise, drug store format (ŕ la CVS or Walgreens), rather than only groceries.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 04, 2014, 10:04:41 PM
I would like to see a big time Nike store in one of those larger spaces, like the one in Times Square. You would think with Lebron that could help convince them.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fmp in nyc on November 04, 2014, 10:06:51 PM
Hope more than the Toby Keith bar is built in time for the Republican convention... go for a 500+ foot high tower, Mr. Stark (or you're a wimp!!!) :clap: :clap: :shoot: :shoot:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 05, 2014, 12:01:46 AM
The 75,000 SF leasable ground floor space is the max if no space is divided. Stark's plan shows divided retail spaces which tells me he doesn't have a large retailer signed yet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on November 05, 2014, 12:04:07 AM
Anyone else gonna be at City Planning on Friday?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on November 05, 2014, 07:34:08 AM
I would like to see a big time Nike store in one of those larger spaces, like the one in Times Square. You would think with Lebron that could help convince them.

There is no Nike town in Times square.  Shoe stores have built in "sneaker heads", but they are one dimensional stores.  Stores in that development will have more diversity and appeal to children to adults.  With more people moving downtown developers need to start thinking of family friendly stores and pet stores.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 05, 2014, 08:46:04 AM
Hope more than the Toby Keith bar is built in time for the Republican convention... go for a 500+ foot high tower, Mr. Stark (or you're a wimp!!!) :clap: :clap: :shoot: :shoot:

Don't quite get what you mean?  Stark has nothing to do with Toby Keith's.  It is almost a mile away in the Flats East Bank.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on November 05, 2014, 09:15:23 AM
This will mean 3 20+ story new buildings in Cleveland in as many years.    Not sure when the last time that has happened?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: STRIVE2THRIVE on November 05, 2014, 09:52:04 AM
If you could choose between 3 buildings over 20 stories or one over 60 stories, which one would you choose for Cleveland?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 05, 2014, 09:54:09 AM
3 buildings over 20 stories. More density to the skyline. Height is great but hardly as important as a full skyline.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on November 05, 2014, 09:55:42 AM
If you could choose between 3 buildings over 20 stories or one over 60 stories, which one would you choose for Cleveland?

Definitely the 3. We've got too many surface lots to fill.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on November 05, 2014, 09:57:54 AM
If you could choose between 3 buildings over 20 stories or one over 60 stories, which one would you choose for Cleveland?

Definitely would want the multiple towers versus one supertall.  Sure, you can see the supertall from a distance- but our downtown has plenty of room for 60+ story towers in the future, if and when the market allows.  Adding the density with multiple 20+ story towers is what I would prefer. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 05, 2014, 10:06:53 AM
I would like to see a big time Nike store in one of those larger spaces, like the one in Times Square. You would think with Lebron that could help convince them.

There is no Nike town in Times square.  Shoe stores have built in "sneaker heads", but they are one dimensional stores.  Stores in that development will have more diversity and appeal to children to adults.  With more people moving downtown developers need to start thinking of family friendly stores and pet stores.

Yeah I was thinking of the FootLocker there. Point is being across from the Q and with Lebron back, a big time signature sports store like a Nike Town would be a draw for all of the visiting athletes and sports media visiting town. Seems like something Nike would be interested in with one of their biggest athletes across the street.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on November 05, 2014, 10:09:02 AM
If you could choose between 3 buildings over 20 stories or one over 60 stories, which one would you choose for Cleveland?

Definitely would want the multiple towers versus one supertall.  Sure, you can see the supertall from a distance- but our downtown has plenty of room for 60+ story towers in the future, if and when the market allows.  Adding the density with multiple 20+ story towers is what I would prefer. 
Agreed. The 350-550' range would be nice for multiple buildings. We already have height, some filling in of holes would be nice!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on November 05, 2014, 03:22:21 PM
Stark Enterprises seeks early approvals for 'nuCLEus,' large mixed-use project near The Q

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Stark Enterprises is seeking early approvals and financing help from the city of Cleveland for a downtown project that could marry 500 apartments, offices, stores, restaurants, a hotel and structured parking.

Representatives for the developer expect to appear at a city design review committee meeting Thursday and the Cleveland City Planning Commission on Friday. Both bodies will consider conceptual plans for a project called nuCLEus, slated for a large parking lot and other property north of Quicken Loans Arena.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_seeks_early.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on November 05, 2014, 03:29:25 PM
The optimistic side of my cautious optimism just got bumped up a little with the new massing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on November 05, 2014, 03:35:27 PM
Anyone else find it interesting that a hotel is included?  I don't recall hearing anything about a hotel in any of the previous articles. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on November 05, 2014, 04:16:53 PM
^ There looks to be a new tower-- about 3/4ths the height of the tallest one-- in the new massing on the Cleveland.com article. Could that be the hotel?

I'm erring on the side of optimism as well with each new development regarding this project.  While quite large, it definitely isn't as pie in the sky as Pesht was.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on November 05, 2014, 05:29:00 PM
Very exciting; I'm cautiously optimistic that this one's going to happen.  It seemingly came out of nowhere, but that's the way development's been happening in C-Town recent years as opposed to the bad-old-days when it took decades to plan developments which ultimately failed ... Also, I'm curious and interested that TIF will be sought to finance this project, which could make this a pilot program for other new downtown development.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on November 05, 2014, 06:44:33 PM
I'm pretty mixed on this.  It would be a lot better if they figured out how to get the parking entirely wrapped in apartments and offices, instead of having massive 6+ level parking garages just above street level, a la Florida.

Fortunately he will have ground-level uses other than parking. Some of the retail offerings could be pretty significant -- up to 75,000 square feet in leasable area. But that's also divisible as is shown below. Also, I'm interested to see that he proposes to turn East 4th south of Prospect into a pedestrian corridor (except for a driveway off Huron), in addition to the laneway he promised. One graphic I'll repost from the previous page is the ground-level concept...

(http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/image/neCLEus_08.jpg)

Anyone want to guess what a "NYC style monumental arch and gate" means?  Is it kind of like "world class signage"?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 05, 2014, 07:00:56 PM
Also, I'm curious and interested that TIF will be sought to finance this project, which could make this a pilot program for other new downtown development.

Actually, the TIF part isn't really new. There's TIF in FEB, the 9, and even the Arcade Hyatt.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on November 05, 2014, 07:02:45 PM
Add E.4th/House of Blues to that list
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 05, 2014, 07:09:34 PM
That's what i was thinking too.  TIF financing had financed several private developments.  I like how they carve out tax revenues that go to schools also.
As a member of the international council of shopping centers (ICSC), I will say that Stark is pitching this hard at all national conventions along side some marquee projects.  He's also taking out full page ads in the magazine monthly.  It's been along time, and maybe the first time, that I have seen a large Cleveland project getting so much national publicity in the industry.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on November 05, 2014, 08:25:21 PM
I think a "NYC style monumental arch" would be something like the Washington Square Arch:
(http://nyc-architecture.com/GV/GV-arc_de_wsp.jpg)

...which itself was based on the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, which was based on the Arch of Titus in Rome.  :lol:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fmp in nyc on November 05, 2014, 09:45:56 PM
Nice massings but would be nice to see more than more boxes.  A few curves could really soften it.  500 foot tower is the way to go.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PoshSteve on November 05, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
Anyone want to guess what a "NYC style monumental arch and gate" means?  Is it kind of like "world class signage"?

HA! "world class signage" gets me in a laughing fit every time. Made my night!!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on November 05, 2014, 09:57:01 PM
I think a "NYC style monumental arch" would be something like the Washington Square Arch:
(http://nyc-architecture.com/GV/GV-arc_de_wsp.jpg)

...which itself was based on the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, which was based on the Arch of Titus in Rome.  :lol:

Something like this?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 05, 2014, 10:55:15 PM
^We can only hope... :-D

The time frame on this project is aggressive, much like Geis. The RNC is 18 months away and Stark hopes to have the parking structure done by then. Does he mean both buildings A and B? Ground would have to be broken within the next couple of months so we will find out how 'real' this project is soon. The core sampling we have seen around town recently must have been for this. Question is with 31 stories will he have to go to bedrock which is time consuming or can they get away with a concrete pad construction? He will have to choose an architect quickly, my guess is it might be Biolosky and Partners who did work on Pescht and Crocker Park. Also 'Intesa' and the "Progressive Campus'. Whoever the architect they will have to somehow make 12 floors of parking not look like 12 floors of parking. I fear the Westin parking deck. Just say no.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on November 05, 2014, 11:23:38 PM
A couple of questions that I have which might not necessarily or could impact the project:

1:  Could the recent elections, including the new Cuyahoga county executive, impact the financing offered to Stark?
2:  Will the "no orange barrels during the RNC" impact/slow the start of upcoming projects?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clevezip on November 06, 2014, 12:12:54 AM
Some renderings in this video -  Fast forward to around 8:10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiN3MkBfLz4&feature=youtu.be&a 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Smithtower on November 06, 2014, 01:28:46 AM
Those "renderings" you mentioned are pictures of the Four Seasons hotel and condominiums on 1st ave in Seattle. Thats just lazy journalism most likely.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ExPatClevGuy on November 06, 2014, 06:50:21 AM
"No orange barrels" is the call for no traffic snarling orange barrels and unsightly government related projects, plus road & bridge construction, public square renovation, etc. There is no such call to halt private construction projects by developers on private property. For goodness sake, there's certainly no hope among local officials and civic boosters to delay projects like this one, but to encourage them.  I'm curious how people in several places in this thread have come to be concerned about this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ChiCleveKid on November 06, 2014, 07:49:13 AM
I think Mr. Alberts used to be a funky bookstore named Kay's Books...as a kid who loved Mad Magazine that place was amazing.
Sad to see that building go...but in the name of progress it's a good thing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on November 06, 2014, 08:03:07 AM
Those "renderings" you mentioned are pictures of the Four Seasons hotel and condominiums on 1st ave in Seattle. Thats just lazy journalism most likely.

I doubt it. They were probably provided those images by Stark who themselves probably use in their direct pitching of the project. Renderings most likely don't exist, so they'll just use placeholders to communicate what they intend for the project, and capture it's essence.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 06, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
^Right.
WOIO always does that with these projects. Remember when they provided that image for One University Cirle. Those renders are from a marketing piece Stark is using along various channels. @mjarboe indicates the architect has not been chosen yet or at least announced publicly. Here it is...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on November 07, 2014, 11:06:06 AM
New nuCLEus Project would change Cleveland's skyline

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A big development project may be both benefiting from and adding to downtown's momentum.
It has a great marketing name: nuCLEus would be in the center of key downtown areas and help create a new vision of the city.
It's a $300 million dollar project that includes a 30-story office tower, a parking garage and 500 apartments, plus shopping and restaurants.

http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2014/11/06/nucleus-project/18625091/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on November 07, 2014, 11:55:07 AM
Did they say Cleveland's THIRD tallest building?!?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on November 07, 2014, 11:57:03 AM
LORD...third tallest building? Does nobody fact check prior to reporting?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on November 07, 2014, 11:59:41 AM
That would be quite an accomplishment for a 500' building to be taller than our current third tallest 659' building. :P
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on November 07, 2014, 12:06:46 PM
^658 :-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on November 07, 2014, 01:29:03 PM
Stark and J-Dek's nuCLEus project wins unanimous conceptual approval from Cleveland planning commission

I'm digging Stark's energy and thoughts.

"But Stark said nuCLEus would bring national retailers and restaurant companies back downtown. He also predicted the development would convince suburban office tenants to return to the urban core. As for design aspirations, Stark said he wanted to activate every street edge around the project with restaurants and storefronts.
He said it was a mistake in the 1960s, 70s and 80s when the city allowed an earlier generation of developers to build modern-style office towers without lively shops and eateries lining their lower floors. The mistake is that the buildings did not think about the streets, did not think about walkability," he said. "They were not designed with interactive conditions to encourage interactive relationships."

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_nucleus_proj.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 07, 2014, 01:34:34 PM
Stark and J-Dek's nuCLEus project wins unanimous conceptual approval from Cleveland planning commission

I'm digging Stark's energy and thoughts.

"But Stark said nuCLEus would bring national retailers and restaurant companies back downtown. He also predicted the development would convince suburban office tenants to return to the urban core. As for design aspirations, Stark said he wanted to activate every street edge around the project with restaurants and storefronts.
He said it was a mistake in the 1960s, 70s and 80s when the city allowed an earlier generation of developers to build modern-style office towers without lively shops and eateries lining their lower floors. The mistake is that the buildings did not think about the streets, did not think about walkability," he said. "They were not designed with interactive conditions to encourage interactive relationships."

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_nucleus_proj.html#incart_river
That's a very intresting comment, and something that I've thought about.  Simply put, IMHO, developers were competing with the "allure" of suburban developments during the 60's through the 80's.  It was kind of like, "see, we can build that model downtown too!"  "You like it in Beachwood, we have it downtown also."  The tables have now turned in this cycle, and who knows, in future generations, it may go back to the suburban model as it will then be vintage...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on November 07, 2014, 02:15:26 PM
I'm glad the planning commission agreed upon this now... But I wish some of the "parking garages taking up entire streets" could be changed with new development. For example the block bound by E. 9th, Walnut, Superior and E. 12th is such a waste. 1717 will activate the E. 9th side but what a shame those huge swaths of parking garages still will be there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on November 07, 2014, 03:31:57 PM
The latest article says the tallest tower will be 500 feet at 30 stories? That would put it just shy of Erieview. Even assuming for 14 feet per story, 30 only comes out to 420 feet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 07, 2014, 03:33:08 PM
^It's possible it has some sort of spire or crown to push it skyward without upping the floor count.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mu2010 on November 07, 2014, 03:43:56 PM
Has anyone seen a video of Stark's presentation?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on November 07, 2014, 03:46:02 PM
The latest article says the tallest tower will be 500 feet at 30 stories? That would put it just shy of Erieview. Even assuming for 14 feet per story, 30 only comes out to 420 feet.

80 foot high atrium is not out of the realm of possibility.  Also, isn't 13 feet (including the floor/ceiling space) probably a bit low of an estimate for offices?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on November 07, 2014, 03:47:49 PM
The latest article says the tallest tower will be 500 feet at 30 stories? That would put it just shy of Erieview. Even assuming for 14 feet per story, 30 only comes out to 420 feet.

Stark's drawing has 31 stories and I believe the new EY tower is 15' per floor. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on November 07, 2014, 05:06:56 PM
I hope we get more than the toothpick on a pedestal shown in the massing. Short podium on a huge lot, with a skinny tower sitting in the middle of it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on November 07, 2014, 06:06:09 PM
New nuCLEus Project would change Cleveland's skyline

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A big development project may be both benefiting from and adding to downtown's momentum.
It has a great marketing name: nuCLEus would be in the center of key downtown areas and help create a new vision of the city.
It's a $300 million dollar project that includes a 30-story office tower, a parking garage and 500 apartments, plus shopping and restaurants.

http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2014/11/06/nucleus-project/18625091/

Got to comment, those night shots of downtown look great.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 07, 2014, 07:01:43 PM
The latest article says the tallest tower will be 500 feet at 30 stories? That would put it just shy of Erieview. Even assuming for 14 feet per story, 30 only comes out to 420 feet.

Stark's drawing has 31 stories and I believe the new EY tower is 15' per floor.
Parking garage floors are only 9 feet though.  And I believe there about 13 levels of those.  So I'll guess about 120 feet for the garage, 200 for the leasable space putting it at about 330.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 08, 2014, 10:52:58 AM
The image released Thursday of the nuCLEus massing is a bit different from what we saw earlier in the week. Building 'A' from the design review agenda showed it as a 17 story structure with retail/parking/residential. The newer massing shows a shorter structure with retail/parking and a residential tower on top. We should have a better idea in a couple of months.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on November 08, 2014, 10:57:40 AM
Stark and J-Dek leaning toward NBBJ of Columbus and Bialosky of Cleveland as architects of nuCLEus project

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Developer Robert Stark promised the city's planning commission that his proposed nuCLEus development downtown would provide "brand new iconic architecture that lets the world know we are competing at the highest level in global economy."

Stark didn't give specifics in the meeting, but said in an interview afterwards that he's negotiating with the Columbus office of NBBJ to hire two architects he considered the best in the international firm.

Developer Robert Stark displayed this slide of three unnamed urban towers on Friday at a City Planning Commission meeting in Cleveland as he discussed the general direction he'd pursue architecturally on his proposed nuCLEus project in downtown Cleveland.
Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon
 
He declined to name the architects, but he said he'd like to combine NBBJ with Bialosky + Partners Architects of Cleveland, which has designed local projects including Stark's Crocker Park development in Westlake.

Jack Bialosky Jr., a principal of the firm, serves on the city's Downtown/Flats Design Review Committee.

Stark said he plans to announce the choice of architects "within a week," and that his Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd., of Solon, the firm partnering in the $250 million to $350 million downtown development, plan to be back at City Hall within six to eight weeks with conceptual designs for the large development.


http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_and_j-dek_are_leaning_to.html#incart_river (http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_and_j-dek_are_leaning_to.html#incart_river)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on November 08, 2014, 11:06:32 AM
If nucleus really takes-off quickly, I wonder what this means for the Jacob's PS lot and some of the Warehouse District lots.  Additionally, while adding another 200 room hotel is fine, CLE really needs another hotel on the scale of the Hilton (or larger) to truly compete for big events. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on November 08, 2014, 11:11:55 AM

So Bob Stark seems to be going forward with nuCLEus (horrible name) because of the Republicans and LeBron?  If these weren't happening we could just forget about nuCLEus?  Isn't that nice.  Because downtown Cleveland didn't have momentum before they decided to come to town.  I am hearing that from the video correctly, right?
nuCLEus is a great name and branded right it will be successful. You wont find another "nucleus" development, like you would "the metropolitan", "the park/parc", "the grand", "the Terrace","sky house","'Lake/city/river-view" etc.

The name speaks directly to those who want to live in an urban setting.  It speaks to those who may want to party, dine or eat in an urban setting yet may not want to live there.  It speaks to it architectural neighbors between public square and the Hanna development to say, "you're not the only game in town".  Lastly for those coming from cities like Philadelphia, Atlanta, Washington Dc, Baltimore and to a lesser degree, Boston & SE Florida, we're changing and our downtown is unique and lively.

As I said, during and after, the construction of the Pinnacle, the Park Building, then 668, (and other buildings) the building development and amenities would be up'd for each consecutive development.  As more buildings are turned over, developers will need to provide better building materials and internal (unit materials) and external amenities (ground level retail and neighborhood amenities). 

Right now we're at a point where there are very few buildings in downtown proper to convert, so new builds are on the horizon.  I wouldn't be surprised if plans, that are not public, are in the works.

Prospect went from being one of the worst streets in Cleveland to being prime real estate.  I wouldn't be surprised to see more market rate residential development between Public Square and at least 18 Street.  East of 18 I could see student housing or dorms.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on November 08, 2014, 11:24:05 AM
If nucleus really takes-off quickly, I wonder what this means for the Jacob's PS lot and some of the Warehouse District lots.  Additionally, while adding another 200 room hotel is fine, CLE really needs another hotel on the scale of the Hilton (or larger) to truly compete for big events. 
I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 08, 2014, 11:30:32 AM
Stark and J-Dek leaning toward NBBJ of Columbus and Bialosky of Cleveland as architects of nuCLEus project

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Developer Robert Stark promised the city's planning commission that his proposed nuCLEus development downtown would provide "brand new iconic architecture that lets the world know we are competing at the highest level in global economy."

Stark didn't give specifics in the meeting, but said in an interview afterwards that he's negotiating with the Columbus office of NBBJ to hire two architects he considered the best in the international firm.

Developer Robert Stark displayed this slide of three unnamed urban towers on Friday at a City Planning Commission meeting in Cleveland as he discussed the general direction he'd pursue architecturally on his proposed nuCLEus project in downtown Cleveland.
Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon
 
He declined to name the architects, but he said he'd like to combine NBBJ with Bialosky + Partners Architects of Cleveland, which has designed local projects including Stark's Crocker Park development in Westlake.

Jack Bialosky Jr., a principal of the firm, serves on the city's Downtown/Flats Design Review Committee.

Stark said he plans to announce the choice of architects "within a week," and that his Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd., of Solon, the firm partnering in the $250 million to $350 million downtown development, plan to be back at City Hall within six to eight weeks with conceptual designs for the large development.


http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_and_j-dek_are_leaning_to.html#incart_river (http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_and_j-dek_are_leaning_to.html#incart_river)

Interesting article.  Really surprised at the stated speed of this thing (something that really has had me a bit skeptical about the whole project (as well as Stark's previous adventure downtown) because generally things really just don't work this way in Cleveland (or for that matter any where) on big projects like this. 

The quote that most interested me was "speed is essential on Nucleus in order to make the project's financing work".  I wonder why that is.  All I could think of was a fear that construction costs will rise in the future.  Could there be any other reason?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on November 08, 2014, 11:34:00 AM


Interesting article.  Really surprised at the stated speed of this thing (something that really has had me a bit skeptical about the whole project (as well as Stark's previous adventure downtown) because generally things really just don't work this way in Cleveland (or for that matter any where) on big projects like this. 

The quote that most interested me was "speed is essential on Nucleus in order to make the project's financing work".  I wonder why that is.  All I could think of was a fear that construction costs will rise in the future.  Could there be any other reason?

It's simple.   Strike while the (development) iron is hot and before a competitor can steal your thunder.  The less competition for cash, the better opportunity you have to get what you're asking.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Glenville on November 08, 2014, 01:16:07 PM
Why are news channels reporting it will be the third tallest building downtown. At 500 feet, it will be 5th, right?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jeremyhz on November 08, 2014, 01:23:57 PM
Why are news channels reporting it will be the third tallest building downtown. At 500 feet, it will be 5th, right?

At 500 ft. this would be the fifth tallest, but it hasn't even been confirmed to be 500 ft.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on November 08, 2014, 01:48:04 PM
As much as I'd like a Cleveland architecture firm to be chosen, I am much more impressed with NBBJ's portfolio. I hope they are chosen.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on November 08, 2014, 02:09:10 PM
Why are news channels reporting it will be the third tallest building downtown. At 500 feet, it will be 5th, right?

"News channels" is a relative term.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 08, 2014, 02:26:27 PM
Wow, the background on Stark's architect search was pretty interesting. I would not have expected he was even considering the "it" firms of the day. Great to hear he's really focusing on the design of this thing.

As much as I'd like a Cleveland architecture firm to be chosen, I am much more impressed with NBBJ's portfolio. I hope they are chosen.

From the Litt piece, Stark made it pretty clear he's not considering hiring a Cleveland firm on its own. It will be a team between a local firm and an outside designer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on November 08, 2014, 03:43:37 PM
Regarding that "third tallest" isn't the difference between the terminal tower and BP building something like 50ft?  To be a new building and #3 you would almost have to purposefully want to be third
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ChiCleveKid on November 08, 2014, 08:45:21 PM
As a marketing professional...(albeit in pharmaceuticals) I LOVE the name NuCLEus. 
I think it's a genius play on words and hits home.

BRAVO BOB STARK!
MAY THE GHOSTS OF 'PESHT' (horrible name) BE GONE!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on November 08, 2014, 09:12:50 PM
The quotes from Stark were interesting. I can picture him being interviewed by the architecture firms pitching a plan that's equal parts retail and parking garage with modern building poking out the top. I would like to see how they hide the parking from view.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on November 08, 2014, 10:56:58 PM


Interesting article.  Really surprised at the stated speed of this thing (something that really has had me a bit skeptical about the whole project (as well as Stark's previous adventure downtown) because generally things really just don't work this way in Cleveland (or for that matter any where) on big projects like this. 

The quote that most interested me was "speed is essential on Nucleus in order to make the project's financing work".  I wonder why that is.  All I could think of was a fear that construction costs will rise in the future.  Could there be any other reason?

It's simple.   Strike while the (development) iron is hot and before a competitor can steal your thunder.  The less competition for cash, the better opportunity you have to get what you're asking.

Also, this may have been in works, at least conceptually, for a while.  Stark may actually be ahead of the curve prior to making an announcement.

There may also be some pent up demand that makes this easy to finance and sell.

I haven't lived in CLE since the early '80's and visit infrequently, but in the past 30 years I have never seen this amount of development happening.  Has CLE reached a critical mass where development feeds on development?  A lot of projects that were discussed since the late 70's and even the 60's (Hilton Hotel) are all of a sudden coming to fruition which have, in turn, caused newer development (nucleus).  The conversions of older office buildings into dwellings with a waiting list would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.  The amount of projects and improvements within a 5 mile radius of PS is unprecedented in my lifetime.  And these aren't just "show" projects, these are projects with a lot of private money.

Even the GOP convention coming to CLE is generating a lot of buzz everywhere.  I remember when the Democrats announced CLT there was nowhere near the buzz or coverage.

Hopefully, the success of Nucleus leads to more.....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on November 09, 2014, 06:40:01 AM
Does anyone know how tall the tallest building of Nucleus is going to be? 30/31 floors or 30 floors plus the parking and ground level stores? Thanks#
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 09, 2014, 09:12:26 AM
Also, this may have been in works, at least conceptually, for a while.  Stark may actually be ahead of the curve prior to making an announcement.

There may also be some pent up demand that makes this easy to finance and sell.

I haven't lived in CLE since the early '80's and visit infrequently, but in the past 30 years I have never seen this amount of development happening.  Has CLE reached a critical mass where development feeds on development?  A lot of projects that were discussed since the late 70's and even the 60's (Hilton Hotel) are all of a sudden coming to fruition which have, in turn, caused newer development (nucleus).  The conversions of older office buildings into dwellings with a waiting list would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.  The amount of projects and improvements within a 5 mile radius of PS is unprecedented in my lifetime.  And these aren't just "show" projects, these are projects with a lot of private money.


Agreed. And I think MD88PILOT and I are about the same age (upper 40s), so we can recall the 1970s when Cleveland and most major US cities were at their lowest. To see them pace the nation's economic recovery despite all that's still against them is pretty remarkable. Lots of work still left to do, but this pace is incredible. And yes, I also agree that if nuCLEus gets built and fills up pretty fast, the more stodgy, less entrepreneurial companies like Jacobs Group will be willing to attempt something on Public Square.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on November 09, 2014, 09:41:52 AM
Does anyone know how tall the tallest building of Nucleus is going to be? 30/31 floors or 30 floors plus the parking and ground level stores? Thanks#

Did you read the previous posts?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MyTwoSense on November 09, 2014, 09:48:47 AM
Also, this may have been in works, at least conceptually, for a while.  Stark may actually be ahead of the curve prior to making an announcement.

There may also be some pent up demand that makes this easy to finance and sell.

I haven't lived in CLE since the early '80's and visit infrequently, but in the past 30 years I have never seen this amount of development happening.  Has CLE reached a critical mass where development feeds on development?  A lot of projects that were discussed since the late 70's and even the 60's (Hilton Hotel) are all of a sudden coming to fruition which have, in turn, caused newer development (nucleus).  The conversions of older office buildings into dwellings with a waiting list would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.  The amount of projects and improvements within a 5 mile radius of PS is unprecedented in my lifetime.  And these aren't just "show" projects, these are projects with a lot of private money.


Agreed. And I think MD88PILOT and I are about the same age (upper 40s), so we can recall the 1970s when Cleveland and most major US cities were at their lowest. To see them pace the nation's economic recovery despite all that's still against them is pretty remarkable. Lots of work still left to do, but this pace is incredible. And yes, I also agree that if nuCLEus gets built and fills up pretty fast, the more stodgy, less entrepreneurial companies like Jacobs Group will be willing to attempt something on Public Square.


Not to mention, more residential towers will be proposed and built.  As more residents move downtown, we'll see better everyday services as well is areas developed into shopping incubators.

If you noticed nobody is building on Euclid, which leaves it available to return as a retail destination.  Prospect is a great street for residential, so are Payne and Chester. 

NuCLEus' success raises the bar in Downtown and the ripple affect will be felt all over Cleveland.  The strong Downtown, the better Ohio City, Tremont, Det-Sh, Central and Payne-Sterling show to renters and buyers.

Corporations will then realize the city core is the best way to attract and retain employees.  Our friends who have moved outside of Downtown in the last 5 years will 2nd guess those moves to auto centric, far out locations.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on November 09, 2014, 10:55:42 AM
Also, this may have been in works, at least conceptually, for a while.  Stark may actually be ahead of the curve prior to making an announcement.

There may also be some pent up demand that makes this easy to finance and sell.

I haven't lived in CLE since the early '80's and visit infrequently, but in the past 30 years I have never seen this amount of development happening.  Has CLE reached a critical mass where development feeds on development?  A lot of projects that were discussed since the late 70's and even the 60's (Hilton Hotel) are all of a sudden coming to fruition which have, in turn, caused newer development (nucleus).  The conversions of older office buildings into dwellings with a waiting list would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.  The amount of projects and improvements within a 5 mile radius of PS is unprecedented in my lifetime.  And these aren't just "show" projects, these are projects with a lot of private money.


Agreed. And I think MD88PILOT and I are about the same age (upper 40s), so we can recall the 1970s when Cleveland and most major US cities were at their lowest. To see them pace the nation's economic recovery despite all that's still against them is pretty remarkable. Lots of work still left to do, but this pace is incredible. And yes, I also agree that if nuCLEus gets built and fills up pretty fast, the more stodgy, less entrepreneurial companies like Jacobs Group will be willing to attempt something on Public Square.


Not to mention, more residential towers will be proposed and built.  As more residents move downtown, we'll see better everyday services as well is areas developed into shopping incubators.

If you noticed nobody is building on Euclid, which leaves it available to return as a retail destination.  Prospect is a great street for residential, so are Payne and Chester. 

NuCLEus' success raises the bar in Downtown and the ripple affect will be felt all over Cleveland.  The strong Downtown, the better Ohio City, Tremont, Det-Sh, Central and Payne-Sterling show to renters and buyers.

Corporations will then realize the city core is the best way to attract and retain employees.  Our friends who have moved outside of Downtown in the last 5 years will 2nd guess those moves to auto centric, far out locations.

Amen.  Connection connection connection!   When Ohio City grows, it will connect to Detroit Shoreway.  When Detroit Shoreway grows it will connect to Clifton Baltic.   Likewise with Downtown, Midtown, Asiatown and St Clair Superior.  With it we shall return this city to a viable place to live, complete with good schools and services.     

After growing up in the suburbs, I've been living in the City of Cleveland since the early 90's (started with a place in the Chesterfield).   The closest I've seen to this kind of growth was the mid 90's heydey of Michael White (and Voinovich spillover).   Hopefully we add in the sports teams success of the gay 90's to our current successes!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on November 09, 2014, 11:38:04 AM
The growth in the late 80's and most of the 90's was piecemeal.  The Tower City, stadiums and rock hall, while significant, didn't really lead to much additional development - and this during a time of a national boom in the economy -  they turned out to be one-off things.  The recent development, from I'd say 2004 onward, is locally driven, with local money and at least in the beginning small in scale but most importantly, sustainable.  They grew organically from one another and compliment one another.

And all this began under an extreme economic contraction. 

It seemed that previous efforts to jump-start something were predicated on a big ticket development meant to stimulate demand.  The difference this time is that demand is driving development.  It's like nuclear fusion --- once started, it keeps on burning.

My BF (an unabashed Harlem/NYC partisan - where the world ends at the Hudson) is even impressed.  We took a suite downtown during the gay games and a lot of our NYC/SFO/LAX friends were equally impressed.  I've never seen it like this....I'm almost giddy lol

Before I get way off topic here, As CLE becomes - dare I say it - a booming metro again (in some ways it is and always was) the suburbs will still be desirable for a lot of folks.  Growth need not come at their expense, but at the same time maybe the sprawl will stop.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BCCLE1 on November 09, 2014, 02:30:09 PM
A couple things.

In order for Nucleus to be CLE's third tallest building, it would have to be taller then the 200 PS Building. The 200 PSB is 658 ft tall. I do not see that happening unless Stark is able to land a tenant to take all of the 200,000 sq ft of office space proposed, or more so as to raise the height of the structure.

It would be great if Stark has already been working on tenants long before this development was made public

When it comes to adding another hotel around the size of the Downtown Hilton under construction as mentioned it a previous post, IMO I think the best place for that hotel would be on PS. I would tear down the 55 PS building, and have this site, and the Jacob's site developed into another mega project. Another hotel approx. the size of the Hilton in # of rooms could even have residential units too. This would give CLE another tall structure.

For the Jacob's portion of the PS lot, I have not seen much talk in any of the threads of one of NE Ohio's biggest employers whom I believe would be a great fit for downtown. That would be Group Management in Richfield, OH. It employs 8,000 + according to the list of largest employers in Cuyahoga/Summit County which Crains Cleveland Business publisher in 12/2014. GM  is a quiet co which is HQ'd right here, and also has offices in at least 4 other cities that I know of. It could occupy a building of 40+ stories for sure.

But getting back to Nucleus, I too am glad that this project is moving at lighting speed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on November 09, 2014, 03:05:32 PM
Who knows? Maybe he plans on building a 675' high residential tower? I kid, of course. We're not at level of demand for apartments just yet. :)

EDIT: Though I agree you'd have to shoot for third tallest very specifically since there is only about a 60 to 70 feet difference between 200PS and TT.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fmp in nyc on November 09, 2014, 04:16:07 PM
Future Cleveland skyline?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on November 09, 2014, 04:36:12 PM
As a massing model, that's pretty good - but hopefully the final product isn't *quite* as Darth Vader-esque ;-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 09, 2014, 06:55:57 PM
Since the announcement this week with the massing a, I keep gettin a Ren Cen concept in my mind on how this will change the skyline.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Glenville on November 09, 2014, 07:16:49 PM
The massing is too tall, but i love seeing the creativity. The Ren Cen is much larger in scope with five buildings:  727, 522, 522, 522,  and 522ft respectively. I'd love a 527 ft hotel/apt tower with four 322ft towers
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 09, 2014, 07:25:50 PM
Yeah, and the Ren Cen is ugly IMHO.  Big blob of building that all look the same.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 09, 2014, 07:26:24 PM
Hopefully this development with be nothing like the Ren Cen which is basically a disaster of urban planning.  It is cut off from the street and the rest of the city for the most part.  Those huge things at the base of it (I think they have something to do with the air conditioning) make it seem like a fortress.  A 70 story building does not make up for that mess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 09, 2014, 09:30:12 PM
I don't care if this guy doesn't have a drivers license, he 'gets' downtown...

November 09. 2014 4:30AM
Ed FitzGerald to recommend Cuyahoga County commit $8.8 million of casino tax revenue to downtown projects

By JAY MILLER
Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald wants to commit $8.8 million from the county’s share of casino tax revenue to loans for three downtown Cleveland projects that he believes would improve residential options.
On Monday, Nov. 10, he will recommend to Cuyahoga County Council that the county make three commitments:
• a $4 million loan to Landmark-May LLC to convert the May Co. building on Public Square to 350 apartments;
• a $3.3 million loan to Stark Enterprises for the first phase of its nuCLEus project near Quicken Loans Arena
• a $1.5 million loan to the Historic Gateway Neighborhood Corp. and the Downtown Cleveland Alliance to be put toward a $7 million makeover of the Gateway district.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20141109/FREE/141109784?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1




Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on November 10, 2014, 06:32:51 AM
I don't care if this guy doesn't have a drivers license, he 'gets' downtown...

November 09. 2014 4:30AM
Ed FitzGerald to recommend Cuyahoga County commit $8.8 million of casino tax revenue to downtown projects

By JAY MILLER
Cuyahoga County Executive Ed FitzGerald wants to commit $8.8 million from the county’s share of casino tax revenue to loans for three downtown Cleveland projects that he believes would improve residential options.
On Monday, Nov. 10, he will recommend to Cuyahoga County Council that the county make three commitments:
• a $4 million loan to Landmark-May LLC to convert the May Co. building on Public Square to 350 apartments;
• a $3.3 million loan to Stark Enterprises for the first phase of its nuCLEus project near Quicken Loans Arena
• a $1.5 million loan to the Historic Gateway Neighborhood Corp. and the Downtown Cleveland Alliance to be put toward a $7 million makeover of the Gateway district.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20141109/FREE/141109784?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Yes, Fitzgerald does get it.  Too bad he's soon to be gone...I fear his successor is more of a party hack who will allow the old status quo to creep back in.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on November 10, 2014, 01:48:20 PM
As a marketing professional...(albeit in pharmaceuticals) I LOVE the name NuCLEus. 
I think it's a genius play on words and hits home.

BRAVO BOB STARK!
MAY THE GHOSTS OF 'PESHT' (horrible name) BE GONE!

heyy whuddaya mean terrrrible nammme? i got rokonok in pesht. buda too. and around lake balaton for that matter. that means aunts, uncles & cousins. haha.

but unh, yeah, nuCLEus is much better. could not be more fitting.

it will be interesting to see what nbbj does if they for sure get the gig. i know they do a lot of institutional, corporate stuff, but i wonder if they have any similar mixed-use examples to this project? if anyone finds anything, post it. maybe it will give us a sense of the architectural style. or maybe not, but wouldn't hurt to poke around a bit and see what we see while we wait for renders.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gruver on November 10, 2014, 02:17:12 PM
http://www.nbbj.com/work/commercial-development/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on November 10, 2014, 02:26:52 PM
^ The Saigon Centre looks about what I imagine nuCLEus would look like--mostly for the short podium lined with stores.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on November 10, 2014, 03:12:37 PM
^ The Saigon Centre looks about what I imagine nuCLEus would look like--mostly for the short podium lined with stores.

Good call. I won't be complaining.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on November 10, 2014, 03:37:01 PM
It's very close in scale and use, but to get the full picture you must imagine it with 5-13 floors of parking above the first floor retail.  If you need help with that, Google "Florida condo tower", and I'm sure you'll get a pretty good idea of what that looks like.  I really think this is a design element that must be changed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 10, 2014, 05:43:32 PM
I have always been a bit skeptical about the purported speed of this development and after reading Michelle's recent long article reporting on the Fitzgerald new conference held today on Public Square relating to casino money being awarded to various downtown projects, including this one, I am even more skeptical.

Maybe it was just the wording of the article but Michelle reiterated all the public funding sources that are being sought for this project (and it seems that they are important for it to go forward) and it just seemed like it is going to be a long draw out process.  From my observation none of this public support ever seems to move fast (and probably rightfully so...there should be a through review). 

Some of the public support being sought is a loan of casino money (approval by the Council), TIF, tax abatement for the residential portion and unspecified state support.  I would imagine that private financing (which is always a long process) is contingent on obtaining most if not all of the above).

Again I am not saying that this project will not get done, I am just not as opitomistic as some on the board that this is going to happen with lighting speed.  In my mind there is just a layer of too good to be true about all of this (again, at least the speed component).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on November 12, 2014, 11:00:32 AM
^ The Saigon Centre looks about what I imagine nuCLEus would look like--mostly for the short podium lined with stores.


ah yeah i didn't see that one, looks close to me too. something like that would be great.

did you find anything else in their portfolio of projects?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on November 13, 2014, 11:20:18 AM
Was looking through my pics of downtown from a flight a couple weeks ago and thought this one showed the plots of land and surrounding environs pretty well. Can't wait to see what this view will look like in a few years! :-)

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 17, 2014, 10:56:34 PM
NuCLEus project - initial project overview presented to Council, preliminary legislation approved for title... http://t.co/3VFlH30TDq
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on November 18, 2014, 07:29:46 AM
great news and paul thanks that excellent photo will be very helpful in showing this unfolding project in context.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: yanni_gogolak on November 18, 2014, 02:51:35 PM
Very ambitious to say the least. They have set aside a lot of large retail spaces. Too big for any of those to be restaurants so the "Laneway" will most likely resemble E. 4th St.
"NYC style monumental arch and gate"  I have no clue what this is supposed to reference.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 19, 2014, 10:57:54 AM
Redirected from Flats East Bank......

It's certainly interesting to see the lineup as it takes shape, even if the announced bars/restaurants don't appeal much to me personally. FEB obviously has a big leg up given that it's actually under construction, but I wonder if FEB and Stark are chasing any of the same national chains for their retail space.

I suspect Stark is going after retailers, like those you would see at Crocker Park or Eton. He'll undoubtedly want restaurants and cafes, but they will be more of the eclectic national brands. Stark likes the brands he pursues to convey his "it's all about the experience" motto. And, of course, many tenants will go into a development if another specific tenant has already committed. If he can get the anchor tenant he wants, a number of other lesser tenants will follow along like a gaggle of ducklings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 19, 2014, 12:20:28 PM
^From the reporting, I had the impression national restaurant brands would be a major component of the NuCLEus retail space, and I imagine it will be an easier sell than stores at this point.  But as I think more about it, FEB is seems to be lining up flashier night life stuff (though also "eclectic national brands") and maybe Stark will be looking more at the same "upscale"-ish national chains that seems to surround every convention center these days (PF Changs, Cheesecake Factory, etc.). So maybe not much overlap.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 23, 2014, 11:18:27 AM
Just snooping around and found the Pinterest page of an urban designer who works out of the NBBJ Boston office. The subject is NuCLEus Precedent Research. The examples are most likely what we might see whenever the first design is released. Take note of the facade on some of the garage images as that is a big part of this project. So it might be that the work will be done by NBBJ/Boston unless this designer was just doing some work for the CBus office.
http://www.pinterest.com/kevconant/nucleus-precedent-research/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on November 23, 2014, 11:25:37 AM
^NBBJ ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Glenville on November 23, 2014, 12:29:49 PM
Am I the only one thinking the budget  for the mega project seems quite low, while offering so much. A world-class, cutting edge designed 500 ft tower, hotel, shopping and restaurants, all for under 300 million dollars?

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on November 23, 2014, 12:50:18 PM
Am I the only one thinking the budget  for the mega project seems quite low, while offering so much. A world-class, cutting edge designed 500 ft tower, hotel, shopping and restaurants, all for under 300 million dollars?


I've been thinking the same thing.  A project of this scale would seem to run from at least $750M to $1B, esp in a dense, urban major downtown... IIRC, FEB's Phase I alone (the E&Y 21-story tower plus the Aloft Hotel) was around $300M.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Glenville on November 23, 2014, 01:47:29 PM
Am I the only one thinking the budget  for the mega project seems quite low, while offering so much. A world-class, cutting edge designed 500 ft tower, hotel, shopping and restaurants, all for under 300 million dollars?


I've been thinking the same thing.  A project of this scale would seem to run from at least $750M to $1B, esp in a dense, urban major downtown... IIRC, FEB's Phase I alone (the E&Y 21-story tower plus the Aloft Hotel) was around $300M.

Yeah something is fishy about this. Can someone explain the low budgets projections? I would have thought at least 500million on the low end. Seems quite odd!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on November 23, 2014, 02:02:52 PM
Have any of you ever followed a construction project from proposal to fruition and *ever* seen initial budget projections match the final outcome?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on November 23, 2014, 02:56:02 PM
^convention center, but I get your point
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PoshSteve on November 23, 2014, 03:24:39 PM
I would love to see night lighting like on the Moscow City of Capitals towers. Im kinda hoping thats why we keep seeing them in the pictures of inspirational architecture for this project

www.youtube.com/embed/T8rtKVLGat0
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on November 23, 2014, 03:45:54 PM
Have any of you ever followed a construction project from proposal to fruition and *ever* seen initial budget projections match the final outcome?

Yes I have, at least to the extent that the projection is in the ballpark of the final costs. Of course, there are almost always hidden costs and cost overruns.  But the point in this case is that, even to non-experts as me (and perhaps Glenville), to peg this massive project as $300M is extremely conservative given the costs of recently completed large-scale projects.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on November 23, 2014, 04:03:06 PM
Here's a proposed $300M highrise development in Calgary for comparison. I think the number is low, but probably not out of the ballpark. Unless you're comparing it to markets that have additional forces in place.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1573379/300-million-dollar-multi-family-project-coming-to-east-village/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on November 24, 2014, 02:21:57 PM
Looks like they have one of those core drilling trucks on site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on November 24, 2014, 02:33:13 PM
^Would that be for testing/determining how far down the bedrock is?  Or is that a sign they are getting started?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 24, 2014, 03:13:05 PM
^Would that be for testing/determining how far down the bedrock is?  Or is that a sign they are getting started?
I would assume soil boring testing for foundation design.  I don't think the city has even reviewed design yet. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on November 24, 2014, 04:05:17 PM
NuCLEus will be THE BLOCK downtown.  The retail will almost be gravy... And the fact that it will be steps away from E. 4th, Tower City, the new Public Square, the Q, the Pro, the RTA transit hub, Heinens/The 9, Schofield/Kimpton,  etc, etc...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on November 24, 2014, 04:17:28 PM
I've been thinking the same thing.  A project of this scale would seem to run from at least $750M to $1B, esp in a dense, urban major downtown... IIRC, FEB's Phase I alone (the E&Y 21-story tower plus the Aloft Hotel) was around $300M.

So check this out - I think this project is priced in 2 phases.  If you search for Cleveland projects here: http://www.constructionwire.com - you'll see that there were 2 listed in early November.  One new construction "Parking Structures, Hotels/Motels/Resorts, Conventions/Arenas" project listed for $272 million and one new construction "Hotels/Motels/Resorts, Residential - MultiFamily (Apartments/Condos)" for $300 million.

$572 million sounds more realistic for a project like this.

I was snooping around on that site earlier in the month and it allowed me to look at each project listing on a map.  I think I remember both of these 2 projects being listed at the NuCLEus site.  Phase 1 being the parking and some retail components and Phase 2 being the larger tower.  For some reason, I no longer have the option to view the projects on the map and I don't have an account so oh well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 24, 2014, 06:27:11 PM
So check this out - I think this project is priced in 2 phases.  If you search for Cleveland projects here: http://www.constructionwire.com - you'll see that there were 2 listed in early November.  One new construction "Parking Structures, Hotels/Motels/Resorts, Conventions/Arenas" project listed for $272 million and one new construction "Hotels/Motels/Resorts, Residential - MultiFamily (Apartments/Condos)" for $300 million.

$572 million sounds more realistic for a project like this.

I was snooping around on that site earlier in the month and it allowed me to look at each project listing on a map.  I think I remember both of these 2 projects being listed at the NuCLEus site.  Phase 1 being the parking and some retail components and Phase 2 being the larger tower.  For some reason, I no longer have the option to view the projects on the map and I don't have an account so oh well.

That makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on November 24, 2014, 07:34:46 PM
Here's a proposed $300M highrise development in Calgary for comparison. I think the number is low, but probably not out of the ballpark. Unless you're comparing it to markets that have additional forces in place.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1573379/300-million-dollar-multi-family-project-coming-to-east-village/


interesting find here -- this one looks very similar.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on November 24, 2014, 07:55:31 PM
After posting that it occurred to me that the article is obviously in Canadian dollars, but didn't bother to modify it since in my mind the $CN had been keeping pace with the $US, but apparently Canada has fallen off a cliff and is being exchanged at below $0.90 per Canadian dollar.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 25, 2014, 10:09:30 AM
After posting that it occurred to me that the article is obviously in Canadian dollars, but didn't bother to modify it since in my mind the $CN had been keeping pace with the $US, but apparently Canada has fallen off a cliff and is being exchanged at below $0.90 per Canadian dollar.

Unless most/all of their materials and labor are coming from another country, the exchange rate doesn't mean much here. The cost of a building is scaled to everything else in that country, be it the price of fuel to an hour of labor to cost of a cheeseburger. A $2 cheeseburger at McDonalds in the USA still costs $2 in Canada. It only matters when a border is involved because, as an American, I can more of that Canadian cheeseburger than a Canadian can.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 25, 2014, 01:44:44 PM
^So in Japan it would only cost 300M yen, right? ;)  I don't think you can just assume the purchasing power of similarly valued currencies is identical, but that's all off-topic.

At this point I think we should just ignore projected costs.  Stark has been fairly specific about the scale he ultimately wants to build to, but as SixthCity reminds us, this thing will be phased, so any dollar numbers would have to described in really specific terms to mean much.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 25, 2014, 06:40:32 PM
^So in Japan it would only cost 300M yen, right? ;)  I don't think you can just assume the purchasing power of similarly valued currencies is identical, but that's all off-topic.

No, it's scalable within each economy. A cheeseburger costs 2 Euros or 2 pounds. But a visiting American can buy more or less of them depending on the exchange rate.

If Calgary can build a project similar to nuCLEus for C$300 million, then you have to look at other factors including the design, comparing building materials, local rents, prevailing wages, the country of origin of materials and resources, etc. etc. Exchange rates matter only if inputs are crossing international boundaries.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on November 25, 2014, 11:20:42 PM
I've been thinking the same thing.  A project of this scale would seem to run from at least $750M to $1B, esp in a dense, urban major downtown... IIRC, FEB's Phase I alone (the E&Y 21-story tower plus the Aloft Hotel) was around $300M.

So check this out - I think this project is priced in 2 phases.  If you search for Cleveland projects here: http://www.constructionwire.com - you'll see that there were 2 listed in early November.  One new construction "Parking Structures, Hotels/Motels/Resorts, Conventions/Arenas" project listed for $272 million and one new construction "Hotels/Motels/Resorts, Residential - MultiFamily (Apartments/Condos)" for $300 million.

$572 million sounds more realistic for a project like this.

I was snooping around on that site earlier in the month and it allowed me to look at each project listing on a map.  I think I remember both of these 2 projects being listed at the NuCLEus site.  Phase 1 being the parking and some retail components and Phase 2 being the larger tower.  For some reason, I no longer have the option to view the projects on the map and I don't have an account so oh well.

$272M is the same price tag for the Convention Center Hotel and the stage is currently listed as "construction".  The $300M project is listed as "Approval and Planning (Active)".  So I'm guessing that the one is the CC Hotel and the other is NuCLEus, just my guess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on November 26, 2014, 10:49:53 AM
Just went by, saw four boring/drilling trucks on the site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 26, 2014, 11:46:10 AM
Just went by, saw four boring/drilling trucks on the site.

So they should be reaching China any day now....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on November 26, 2014, 01:04:14 PM
Just went by, saw four boring/drilling trucks on the site.

So they should be reaching China any day now....

Or the Indian Ocean...depending on how literal you want to be.  :-P
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 04, 2014, 12:10:31 AM
No new developments in this piece but it clarifies some of the numbers associated with the project....
http://www.ideastream.org/news/feature/developer-plans-major-new-downtown-cleveland-project
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 04, 2014, 08:37:18 AM
Hmmm, but weren't the detailed conceptual plans only showing two? That article appears to be the only place three towers was on the drawing board.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on December 04, 2014, 08:45:59 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_and_j-dek_are_leaning_to.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 04, 2014, 08:48:31 AM
I'm more inclined to believe the more detailed conceptual plans given first that shows two buildings since that appears to be the direction they're going. Maybe at some point early on they were thinking about a third? Or if they land a hotel operator who wants their own tower it'll be integrated into the plan? It doesn't seem like they're downsizing the project but that rather that that massing model wasn't the one that correlated to the plan as accurately.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on December 04, 2014, 08:50:28 AM
There are several more articles with massings with three buildings instead of two. I'm not sure what's going on? Anyone have ideas?

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_nucleus_proj.html
- this was a conceptual form of what Nucleus would generally look like and was approved by Cleveland planning commission. Why then would remove a building AFTER being approved by the CPC?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on December 04, 2014, 09:26:53 AM
There are several more articles with massings with three buildings instead of two. I'm not sure what's going on? Anyone have ideas?

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_nucleus_proj.html
- this was a conceptual form of what Nucleus would generally look like and was approved by Cleveland planning commission. Why then would remove a building AFTER being approved by the CPC?

You're making much ado about nothing. There hasn't been a significant change. The only thing that looks different is that there is no longer the hotel portion the juts out from the taller tower. But I would hardly consider that piece a "tower" in its own right. I also have no idea why you are losing confidence that this plan will happen. Nothing that Stark has done would seem to indicate that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on December 04, 2014, 09:59:08 AM
No new developments in this piece but it clarifies some of the numbers associated with the project....
http://www.ideastream.org/news/feature/developer-plans-major-new-downtown-cleveland-project

“In the ‘60s, in the ‘70s, in the ‘80s, we built buildings that forgot about what that street is about,” Stark told Cuyahoga County Council yesterday afternoon. This should be the opposite. There shouldn’t be one inch of frontage of the buildings involved here that isn’t active.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsApWXh79k
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 04, 2014, 10:00:32 AM
^That is literally one of the most important things a developer has said in this city in a long time. He gets it. Some of his other developments are questionable, but he knows this location's needs. And the needs of downtown Cleveland.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on December 04, 2014, 01:46:24 PM
His attitude is definitely in the right place. But I'll withhold excitement until I see actual renderings. The street level presence could be dominated by the huge parking garage, especially on the eastern building (what was it, 10 floors of parking?). We have several parking garages with ground floor retail, and not one of them is anything to write home about.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: yanni_gogolak on December 04, 2014, 02:09:26 PM
Just went by, saw four boring/drilling trucks on the site.

So they should be reaching China any day now....

Or the Indian Ocean...depending on how literal you want to be.  :-P

They are going to scrap the building and put a natural gas well on the site.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on December 04, 2014, 02:32:12 PM
His attitude is definitely in the right place. But I'll withhold excitement until I see actual renderings. The street level presence could be dominated by the huge parking garage, especially on the eastern building (what was it, 10 floors of parking?). We have several parking garages with ground floor retail, and not one of them is anything to write home about.

I'd say 515 Euclid is fairly impressive.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 04, 2014, 02:43:09 PM
Generally when integrated into a building garages are a lot less noticeable or offensive.

Plus I believe they said a lot of the development will have 2 stories of retail, right? I know it sounds ridiculous, but the first couple floors are really the only thing that matters in terms of street activity. Whatever is above stops mattering because people don't really look up. An active first two floors followed by inactivity for ten followed by a tower is going to feel the same as 2 stories of activity followed directly by a tower.

Obviously that's a generalization and there are examples that stray from that statement, but it's a general truth.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on December 04, 2014, 05:14:55 PM
Whether we like it or not, parking is going to be a component of any large development like this.  There will be two floors of retail and highrise buildings atop.  The buildings will get a lot of use and generate activity.  This debate is about aesthetics more than effect.  if fully leased, this area will be dynamic, parking or not. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on December 04, 2014, 07:00:04 PM
No, it isn't all about aesthetics.  If you want to enliven that space, you can line the outside of the parking garages with residential units with balconies.  That will provide more "eyes on the street" to use an overused phrase.  Garages are actually quite noisy, lots of honking and car alarms, people yelling for no reason late at night, etc.- 10 stories worth is a lot of that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on December 04, 2014, 10:13:02 PM
No, it isn't all about aesthetics.  If you want to enliven that space, you can line the outside of the parking garages with residential units with balconies.  That will provide more "eyes on the street" to use an overused phrase.  Garages are actually quite noisy, lots of honking and car alarms, people yelling for no reason late at night, etc.- 10 stories worth is a lot of that.
Agreed! There is more to a building and it's affect on the neighborhood than the first floor (or two floors). The parking levels might be very dominant from the street. Pushing the tower away from the Prospect will make just make it worse.


I'd say 515 Euclid is fairly impressive.
It's definitely the best of the bunch. Though I spent 2+ years staring at 515 Euclid from my window across the street. In the evening, the glass facade completely disappears making it look just as bad as every other garage above the first floor. I remember a car alarm going for 4 days non-stop.:)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on December 08, 2014, 11:30:01 AM
Hmmm

Developer of nuCLEus eyes RNC's business

"The office space and apartments in developer Bob Stark’s plans for his nuCLEus development in Cleveland’s Gateway neighborhood aren’t expected to be open until some time after 2016.

But Stark told a Cleveland City Council committee last week that if the Republican National Committee can’t soon find a significant chunk of office space as it builds toward its presidential nominating convention in summer 2016, he might put up as much as seven stories — 200,000 square feet — of raw office space for the party’s convention planning needs."

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20141206/FREE/141209869/developer-of-nucleus-eyes-rncs-business
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on December 08, 2014, 01:26:59 PM
Very interesting!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on December 17, 2014, 10:56:52 AM
http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/keyconnections120614.aspx

Within the article it is stated that the residential tower for Nucleus will be 550 feet tall.  The rendering in the article though is from a residential tower planned for Houston... not sure why they used that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on December 17, 2014, 11:15:45 AM
550 feet put's it above Erieview Tower in height.  That would be a great addition to the skyline!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 17, 2014, 11:19:10 AM
I'd do it now if I was at home, but can someone make a quick skyline massing of this project? I want to see what this will look like from afar.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on December 17, 2014, 11:19:54 AM
I'm hoping that rendering is just a placeholder graphic.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on December 17, 2014, 11:37:38 AM
I think that concept may look good on the Gold Coast or maybe even in University Circle.  Somewhere that it could serve as a centerpiece tower.  But incorporated into the Downtown Skyline, I think it may stand out like a sore thumb.  At that height, and location, no matter what, this is going to be very prevalent in the skyline.  I'd have to see it incorporated into the project to make a better judgement.

I'm sure MayDay is right that it's a placeholder, but typically, a placeholder is chosen based on what the developer is aiming for as far as design and size.  That's why I refer to it as a concept, and one of which I'm not sure works. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on December 17, 2014, 11:38:38 AM
I'm hoping that rendering is just a placeholder graphic.

It kinda pains me to say it this way, but there are not enough levels of parking deck for that to be an actual rendering for this project as we know it so far.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on December 17, 2014, 11:44:08 AM
Everyone! Sloooow down, I said in my comment that the rendering in the article is for a tower in Houston. Google Market Place Tower Houston ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on December 17, 2014, 12:43:06 PM
I'm really excited about this project. More info! More news!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on December 17, 2014, 03:46:44 PM
I'd do it now if I was at home, but can someone make a quick skyline massing of this project? I want to see what this will look like from afar.

I can try later but I think this will fill in the gap between Key/200PS and Terminal Tower from I77 north (one of my favorite views aside from that gap).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 17, 2014, 03:48:56 PM
^I'm actually thinking that tonight I'll do a mockup to see how this plus the Hilton will affect the skyline from various viewpoints. I'm feeling a lazy evening watching movies and inserting buildings into Google Sketchup is perfect for this weather.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on December 17, 2014, 04:18:45 PM
I'd do it now if I was at home, but can someone make a quick skyline massing of this project? I want to see what this will look like from afar.

I can try later but I think this will fill in the gap between Key/200PS and Terminal Tower from I77 north (one of my favorite views aside from that gap).

Based up my high tech and in-depth analysis using Paint, it looks like it will almost blend into view with 200 PS as opposed to filling the gap, unfortunately.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tnh67eeR97E/VJHzLQa-LmI/AAAAAAAAFDk/3K_HhBbWtm4/w1044-h507-no/Untitled.png)

Blue=view of Terminal Tower; Red=view of 200 PS; Orange=view of nuCLEus tower
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on December 17, 2014, 05:49:06 PM
Looks like the only way that gap could be truly filled is with a tower on the Public Square parking lot. Hopefully some day soon!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on December 17, 2014, 06:09:02 PM
^ okay, so from 77 & E 30th the view isn't great, but there are plenty of other perspectives.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on December 17, 2014, 09:16:10 PM
jmicha, looking forward to your mockups - please post when you can :-) I took a rough try (very rough) at some different angles:

TPH2, I think you might be right - I forgot East 4th bends halfway through the block, and I believe the taller tower is slated for the easternmost portion of the site:
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/nucleusskylinemassing1.jpg)

I'm just trying to get my brain around a new fourth tallest tower, so here's hoping  :-)
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/nucleusskylinemassing2.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/nucleusskylinemassing3.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 17, 2014, 09:45:34 PM
Thanks! That tower would look absolutely massive from behind home plate at Progressive Field!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on December 17, 2014, 09:52:42 PM
The second, shorter tower will also have a skyline presence.  And the Hilton too of course.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 17, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
So I took a building of similar height (the tallest building in Vancouver which is 659' tall) and scaled it down in sketchup to be exactly 550' tall. I geosynced it and added it into Google Earth and then recreated images used from your site Mayday, including the three images you used, to create a vision of what could be. I made five renderings shown below. If anyone has location requests I can easily add them to any images you link to.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7522/15861010279_95da9c4a95_o.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7511/15861298997_7383e3a9e5_o.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8657/15861299037_67290425d8_o.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7482/16046357262_a20a1fd34d_o.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7516/16047055485_c56dec8404_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on December 17, 2014, 10:29:50 PM
My attempt from Lorain-Carnegie

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l293/juice95m3/urbanohio/massingcopy_zpsd835a418.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/juice95m3/media/urbanohio/massingcopy_zpsd835a418.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on December 17, 2014, 10:57:55 PM
Well since we are having so much fun, one more...

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l293/juice95m3/urbanohio/massing-bcopy_zpse6f07844.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/juice95m3/media/urbanohio/massing-bcopy_zpse6f07844.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 18, 2014, 01:11:09 AM
OMG, we are amassing a massive number of massings!

Nice job, all of you!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on December 18, 2014, 04:31:34 AM
The skyscraper looks out of place. The area is populated with a lot of short buildings. They are going to have to figure out a way to make it unique but not stick out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on December 18, 2014, 04:56:44 AM
How tall with the smaller building be? Can you make massing with the Nucleus towers and the convention center hotel? Thanks and nice job
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on December 18, 2014, 06:55:51 AM
I revised two of my images to show the convention center hotel.

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/nucleusskylinemassing2.jpg)

(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/nucleusskylinemassing3.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on December 18, 2014, 07:14:30 AM
Mayday, do you know how tall the smaller tower will be?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on December 18, 2014, 08:50:43 AM
No.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on December 18, 2014, 09:08:33 AM
I'm not seeing the Convention hotel in those two pictures Mayday.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on December 18, 2014, 09:35:29 AM
^Next to the Justice Center.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on December 18, 2014, 11:30:18 AM
For whatever reason they didn't show up on my screen originally.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jeremyck01 on December 18, 2014, 02:40:11 PM
The skyscraper looks out of place. The area is populated with a lot of short buildings. They are going to have to figure out a way to make it unique but not stick out like a sore thumb.


Strange comment. It's a skyscraper. It's supposed to stick out. Who cares if the area has smaller buildings?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on December 18, 2014, 02:48:31 PM
There are skyscrapers all over the place as little as a block away. As long as it does a good job of bridging the scalar differences between East 4th and the Gateway District I think it'll be great.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on December 18, 2014, 03:02:09 PM
^^ I wonder if people said the same thing when Terminal Tower was built ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on December 18, 2014, 07:13:38 PM
This will make quite an impact on the skyline.  It really extends it toward the south.

The only missing view I would like to see with a massing is from the West Shoreway or Edgewater Park.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on December 18, 2014, 07:19:11 PM
Question?  Has it been stated in any other media other than that Freshwater article that the primary tower was going to be 550 feet.  I just don't have a memory that the exact height has been mentioned previously. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on December 18, 2014, 08:03:31 PM
Question?  Has it been stated in any other media other than that Freshwater article that the primary tower was going to be 550 feet.  I just don't have a memory that the exact height has been mentioned previously. 

I don't have the source handy, but I know for sure that Litt mentioned in one of his articles that it would likely be a 500+ foot tower
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on December 19, 2014, 06:11:37 AM
it really balances out skyline shots doesnt it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on December 19, 2014, 07:39:42 AM
This will make quite an impact on the skyline.  It really extends it toward the south.

The only missing view I would like to see with a massing is from the West Shoreway or Edgewater Park.

Here you go - I'm not completely sure on this because of the bend on Prospect once it crosses Ontario.
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/nucleusskylinemassing4.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BelievelandD1 on December 19, 2014, 09:10:15 AM
^ Wow. i love that. thats my view while walking the dogs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on December 19, 2014, 11:35:50 AM
Thanks MayDay.  That really closes a gap in the skyline.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BelievelandD1 on December 19, 2014, 12:22:09 PM
Makes me wish the PD never ran that story about the ferrari building.  Now im just getting greedy
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on December 19, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
I'm ready to hear more news about this Stark's nuCLEus Project. When is the ground breaking?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 19, 2014, 03:16:54 PM
I'm ready to hear more news about this Stark's nuCLEus Project. When is the ground breaking?

You should go straight to the source. Contact Stark Enterprises at 216-464-2860

Or check their website http://www.starkenterprises.com/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on December 19, 2014, 03:20:49 PM
 :| :|
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on December 19, 2014, 09:12:39 PM
it really balances out skyline shots doesnt it?

Yes, I agree with this 100 percent!  This is the perfect location for a 500 footer,

Where would another location be a good spot for a 500 footer?  Obviously, at Public Square.  But, beyond this, I would think at the old Hippodrome location.  And on the Prospect side since it is close to Nucleus and would expand on the momentum in the area.

Other ideas?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on December 19, 2014, 09:21:28 PM
it really balances out skyline shots doesnt it?

Yes, I agree with this 100 percent!  This is the perfect location for a 500 footer,

Where would another location be a good spot for a 500 footer?  Obviously, at Public Square.  But, beyond this, I would think at the old Hippodrome location.  And on the Prospect side since it is close to Nucleus and would expand on the momentum in the area.

Other ideas?

I'd love to see one on that southwest corner of W3 and St Clair to start filling in warehouse lots and box in the Justice Center!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on December 22, 2014, 12:21:23 PM
^ yeah i agree with that site. a start to filling those cursed parking lots in.

speaking of the 'ol lots, does anyone have a map of the lot sizes by lot ownership? it would be great if someone could make one, that is if all the lot owners are known? we could have fun playing simcity with a thread like that, call out the do-nothing lot owners and who knows, it might even inspire a developer? ha.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on December 22, 2014, 12:23:07 PM
The tower should be 529'+ in order to be the 4th tallest building, not 500. Erieview tower is 529' and is currently the 4th tallest building in Cleveland.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: skorasaurus on December 22, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
^ yeah i agree with that site. a start to filling those cursed parking lots in.

speaking of the 'ol lots, does anyone have a map of the lot sizes by lot ownership? it would be great if someone could make one, that is if all the lot owners are known? we could have fun playing simcity with a thread like that, call out the do-nothing lot owners and who knows, it might even inspire a developer? ha.

http://skorasaurus.github.io/dtparking

should be current with all parking lots that are available to the public.

It doesn't have lot ownership, but I'd like to add that one day... With some simple math, could also guess on the sq. footage of the map as well with it.

(down at the moment, it'll be back in a few hours).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on December 22, 2014, 06:30:46 PM
^ yeah i agree with that site. a start to filling those cursed parking lots in.

speaking of the 'ol lots, does anyone have a map of the lot sizes by lot ownership? it would be great if someone could make one, that is if all the lot owners are known? we could have fun playing simcity with a thread like that, call out the do-nothing lot owners and who knows, it might even inspire a developer? ha.

http://skorasaurus.github.io/dtparking

should be current with all parking lots that are available to the public.

It doesn't have lot ownership, but I'd like to add that one day... With some simple math, could also guess on the sq. footage of the map as well with it.

(down at the moment, it'll be back in a few hours).


That's the first time I've ever cringed from seeing a large amount of the color green on a map
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on December 22, 2014, 10:53:23 PM
^^Wow there is a lot of infill to do
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on December 22, 2014, 10:56:08 PM
Also hopefully the Stark development will jumpstart new construction, I hate the way downtown looks East of the Residences at 1717.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on December 23, 2014, 05:52:52 AM
^ yeah i agree with that site. a start to filling those cursed parking lots in.

speaking of the 'ol lots, does anyone have a map of the lot sizes by lot ownership? it would be great if someone could make one, that is if all the lot owners are known? we could have fun playing simcity with a thread like that, call out the do-nothing lot owners and who knows, it might even inspire a developer? ha.

http://skorasaurus.github.io/dtparking

should be current with all parking lots that are available to the public.

It doesn't have lot ownership, but I'd like to add that one day... With some simple math, could also guess on the sq. footage of the map as well with it.

(down at the moment, it'll be back in a few hours).

wow nice work. this is just excellent. would you mind starting a new thread with that image? we could help identify the lot owners and parcel sizes. maybe straight up call it 'the downtown cleveland parking lots thread' or something.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on January 08, 2015, 02:35:17 PM
Another day another massing. From a very recent www.freshwatercleveland.com article. Probably means nothing...
http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/keyconnections120614.aspx
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on January 08, 2015, 02:44:31 PM
Very interesting!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on January 08, 2015, 02:59:56 PM
Very interesting!

I like that bridged section--would be cool to have something modern downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on January 08, 2015, 03:41:52 PM
Looks like the height of the residential tower is now 550 feet according to the article... very nice!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 08, 2015, 03:57:30 PM
Guys that article was first posted in this thread on Dec. 17 with multiple posts discussing the alledged  550 height of the building.  So yes it probably means nothing as suggested and we have already been discussing it for three weeks.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on January 08, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
^Yes the link was but the massing wasn't. That's why I posted it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on January 08, 2015, 04:57:34 PM
I like the bridge too. The massing (at least the upper part) looks similar to another upcoming building designed by NBBJ, the Tencent Headquarters in Shenzen, China:
(https://d3pxppq3195xue.cloudfront.net/media/images/13/02/21/Tencent_Rendering_Day_Final_966x668.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CornerCurve on January 08, 2015, 05:34:30 PM
(http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/01/08/20150108-v07-from-huronjpg-0a5bcf07c6c5a88a.jpg)

First look: nuCLEus project renderings show 54-story tower in downtown Cleveland (gallery)

By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer
on January 08, 2015 at 5:27 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A residential tower at the nuCLEus project in downtown Cleveland could stand 54 stories - or 647 feet - high, making it the city's fourth-tallest building.

The developers behind the skyline-changing nuCLEus proposal filed their first crop of renderings with the city Thursday. The images show how Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon hope to fit apartments, offices, stores, restaurants, hotel rooms, parking garages and - possibly - a few dozen condominiums onto a 3-acre site in the Gateway District.

J-Dek and Stark also confirmed that they've hired NBBJ as the lead architect on the project, which now carries an estimated price tag of $380 million to $400 million. Bialosky + Partners Architects, a local firm, will assist NBBJ designers from Columbus, New York and Shanghai.

"This is an exciting stage in our development process," Bob Stark, president and chief executive officer of Stark Enterprises, said in a written statement. "NBBJ's international reputation and experience will help us create something that is truly iconic for Cleveland."

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/first_look_nucleus_project_ren.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MissinOhio on January 08, 2015, 05:40:48 PM
(http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/01/08/20150108-v07-from-huronjpg-0a5bcf07c6c5a88a.jpg)

First look: nuCLEus project renderings show 54-story tower in downtown Cleveland (gallery)

By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer
on January 08, 2015 at 5:27 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A residential tower at the nuCLEus project in downtown Cleveland could stand 54 stories - or 647 feet - high, making it the city's fourth-tallest building.

The developers behind the skyline-changing nuCLEus proposal filed their first crop of renderings with the city Thursday. The images show how Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon hope to fit apartments, offices, stores, restaurants, hotel rooms, parking garages and - possibly - a few dozen condominiums onto a 3-acre site in the Gateway District.

J-Dek and Stark also confirmed that they've hired NBBJ as the lead architect on the project, which now carries an estimated price tag of $380 million to $400 million. Bialosky + Partners Architects, a local firm, will assist NBBJ designers from Columbus, New York and Shanghai.

"This is an exciting stage in our development process," Bob Stark, president and chief executive officer of Stark Enterprises, said in a written statement. "NBBJ's international reputation and experience will help us create something that is truly iconic for Cleveland."

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/first_look_nucleus_project_ren.html#incart_river

Holy sh##!  That is impressive.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on January 08, 2015, 05:43:29 PM
Holy Hell!  Nice!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on January 08, 2015, 06:01:10 PM
Anyone else notice the city Target in the one rendering? Haha
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 08, 2015, 06:02:34 PM
^^ Holy sh##t, indeed ... I'll admit, I was a major Bob Stark critic when I perceived him tap-dancing and blowing smoke over in the Warehouse District for years while building all his major projects out in the burbs like Eton and Cracker, er, Crocker Park.  But he's made me a believer now, because he's no longer just talking... He always said he felt Cleveland should do something BIG downtown and, well ...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on January 08, 2015, 06:03:01 PM
Looks like they they intend to visually extend E. 4th street all the way to the Arena. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on January 08, 2015, 06:04:12 PM
Anyone else notice the city Target in the one rendering? Haha
I saw a C B 2
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ilivecle on January 08, 2015, 06:07:00 PM
Anyone else notice the city Target in the one rendering? Haha
I saw a C B 2

Pretty sure it says C L E.

The one rendering omits the skywalk between the parking garage and the Q. That would be nice.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on January 08, 2015, 06:09:22 PM
^ ah crap you're right. I got too excited.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 08, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Looks like they they intend to visually extend E. 4th street all the way to the Arena. 

Looks awesome.  I just thought, though, that nuCLEus' footprint was wholly to the east of 4th street.  If this rendering is true, it means sayonara to the Herold Building, although the last I recall was that L&R's permission to demolish was denied by the CPC.  No?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 08, 2015, 06:28:38 PM
^My understanding is that the Herold Building was part of the purchase by Stark, but it is not part of the new construction.  It and the parking lot next to it are to be renovated and built upon, although point is rarely discussed in the many news articles.  I guess not sexy enough.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ExPatClevGuy on January 08, 2015, 06:32:38 PM
I'd suggest that CLE is a placeholder for CB2, if you're familiar with that retailer's branding.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on January 08, 2015, 06:37:04 PM
Damn look what I started today. That's pretty close to the massing. At first look it's what I was hoping for. Very nice.

Now I am greedy, give me the Ferrari building too :-D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on January 08, 2015, 06:45:46 PM
I'll be amazed if we see anything like this full buildout in the next 10 years, but I like the renderings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on January 08, 2015, 06:46:44 PM
C'mon, really.  Do we not get this yet?  UO is a SFW website.

-X
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on January 08, 2015, 06:51:41 PM
At first glance, I like it but don't love it; going to continue the cautious optimism.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 08, 2015, 06:55:30 PM
^I probably like the design more than May Day but I have to echo his "cautious optimism".  There is just something about all this hype that is rubbing me the wrong way.  I guess what I really want to say is SHOW ME THE MONEY.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on January 08, 2015, 07:02:21 PM
The one rendering omits the skywalk between the parking garage and the Q. That would be nice.

Oooh now that's interesting. What are the odds that the skywalk is actually being removed vs. that being an aesthetic choice for the rendering?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 08, 2015, 07:04:14 PM
The one rendering omits the skywalk between the parking garage and the Q. That would be nice.

Oooh now that's interesting. What are the odds that the skywalk is actually being removed vs. that being an aesthetic choice for the rendering?

My big money is on that it was just an artistic decision for the renderings
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on January 08, 2015, 07:10:24 PM
Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

But, I really like the concept of the hotel in the "bridge".  This looks like it is going to be about 300 - 350 feet tall itself.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on January 08, 2015, 07:17:19 PM
Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

But, I really like the concept of the hotel in the "bridge".  This looks like it is going to be about 300 - 350 feet tall itself.

Everything looks outdated eventually. Personally I just hope for proper massing and urban principles that never go out of style. The actual design is not as important.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on January 08, 2015, 07:19:22 PM
Anybody seeing something odd about this photo? Pour one out for one our lost homies.:drunk:

(http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/01/08/nucleus-prospect-long-view-8f9b8c4504584aa5.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: eyehrtfood on January 08, 2015, 07:20:04 PM
Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

Oh I think CLE desperately needs something, anything, modern to liven the skyline. This rendering is fantastic to me...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on January 08, 2015, 07:31:09 PM
Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

But, I really like the concept of the hotel in the "bridge".  This looks like it is going to be about 300 - 350 feet tall itself.

Everything looks outdated eventually. Personally I just hope for proper massing and urban principles that never go out of style. The actual design is not as important.

I think a classic skyscraper like the Terminal Tower or Key Tower will never look outdated.  And the Empire State Building and Chrysler Building in NYC are other examples.  Yes, they are not the current style, but are still classics that are not tired looking. 

A good example of what I mean is the Justice center.  It was a modern building for its time, but its architectural style is tiresome today.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on January 08, 2015, 07:34:49 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/SLIM216/F8XhLBR.gif) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/SLIM216/media/F8XhLBR.gif.html)

I just spent the last 15 minutes looking at the renderings, and I like it- I like everything about this project so far!  I don't want to get too far ahead of myself... but I sure as heck wasn't expecting this to be over 600 feet.  The design I like as well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on January 08, 2015, 08:24:28 PM
(http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width960/img/plain-dealer/photo/2015/01/08/20150108-v07-from-huronjpg-0a5bcf07c6c5a88a.jpg)

First look: nuCLEus project renderings show 54-story tower in downtown Cleveland (gallery)

By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer
on January 08, 2015 at 5:27 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A residential tower at the nuCLEus project in downtown Cleveland could stand 54 stories - or 647 feet - high, making it the city's fourth-tallest building.

The developers behind the skyline-changing nuCLEus proposal filed their first crop of renderings with the city Thursday. The images show how Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon hope to fit apartments, offices, stores, restaurants, hotel rooms, parking garages and - possibly - a few dozen condominiums onto a 3-acre site in the Gateway District.

J-Dek and Stark also confirmed that they've hired NBBJ as the lead architect on the project, which now carries an estimated price tag of $380 million to $400 million. Bialosky + Partners Architects, a local firm, will assist NBBJ designers from Columbus, New York and Shanghai.

"This is an exciting stage in our development process," Bob Stark, president and chief executive officer of Stark Enterprises, said in a written statement. "NBBJ's international reputation and experience will help us create something that is truly iconic for Cleveland."

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/first_look_nucleus_project_ren.html#incart_river
Holy sh#t! 54 stories standing at 647 feet?! Amazing. This seems like something you see in Chicago, hopefully this lights a fire under architects designing buildings for Downtown Cleveland.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on January 08, 2015, 08:51:55 PM
I like is a LOT. I like how envelope pushing it is ... especially for CLE. This looks like something I'd expect to see in Montreal or Chicago or Austin. And the height is a HUGE bonus.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BigDipper 80 on January 08, 2015, 09:15:33 PM
I'm impressed. The momentum and excitement this project brings is tantalizing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: dave68 on January 08, 2015, 10:00:13 PM
Has this been in secret developments for years?   The one rendering shows The Columbia Building still standing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on January 08, 2015, 10:08:36 PM
^Looks like they utilize Google Earth Pro which might still have the Columbia.  Interesting note, Google has Fifth Third on Superior about 150' too tall in all their 3d software.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 08, 2015, 11:33:23 PM
Love the design. Will love it more if it gets built.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BCCLE1 on January 08, 2015, 11:41:39 PM
Love the design. Will love it more if it gets built.

Ditto!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on January 09, 2015, 06:04:14 AM
looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on January 09, 2015, 06:11:22 AM
Love the location and the size, especially the height.

I'm not a big fan of the design.  One of the clevecom commenters nailed it:  "Today's trendy is tomorrow's eyesore".  More to the point, there's just something ragged looking about it and that minimizes the height.   I had to count stories, it looked about 20 short at first glance.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 09, 2015, 08:27:08 AM
looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.

I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: heightsfan on January 09, 2015, 09:12:03 AM
Love the location and the size, especially the height.

I'm not a big fan of the design.  One of the clevecom commenters nailed it:  "Today's trendy is tomorrow's eyesore".  More to the point, there's just something ragged looking about it and that minimizes the height.   I had to count stories, it looked about 20 short at first glance.

I agree.  It looks clunky, frankly.  I think it would be more palatable at 20-25 stories, which would blend in better with the heights of surrounding buildings and make downtown look more dense. 

My other concern is that this thing (if built, which is a big if) saps momentum for residential conversions of May Company, Huntington, and other vacant or near-vacant commercial properties.   It is just so big, it's going to take a long time for the market to absorb that much new residential, even assuming the current boom continues.  Something akin to the effect Key Tower had on office space downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BCCLE1 on January 09, 2015, 09:30:31 AM
looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.

I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.

I don't think many here are trying to make Stark out to be a flaky developer, just that there have been so many announced projects over the last quarter century and the majority have not had a ground breaking, or steel rising, including Stark's Warehouse Project.

Remember Ameritrust Center and the glass tower after it, both announced for the Jacobs PS site. How about Courthouse Square on Lakeside Ave. just west of west 9th street. There was also plans for the Museum of Transportation & Industry on the lakefront; the never constructed condo tower on E. 6th & Euclid, etc.. These are just a few of the un-built projects that were announced in the past.

I will smile a lot more when I see ground broken, and steel rising for NuCLEus.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on January 09, 2015, 09:34:13 AM
^^I think the effects on downtown residential would be a little more ambiguous than that. We've seen bigger unit counts than this project drop on the downtown market in some years between several smaller projects. That supply may be slowing rent increases, but it doesn't seem to be killing the pipeline. Seems likely this project could wipe out a lot of demand at the very highest end of the market, including condo buyers, but that may be expanding downtown's market as much as it's cannibalizeing it.

Also, if Stark is able to line up some decent retail in the first phase, that will only make downtown more appealing to more potential renters. And whatever supply effects this new inventory would mean, there's definitely some countervailing critical mass/market-proving benefits to the overall downtown housing market.

Given that the parking/retail phase I is more imminent and much more likely in the next several years than the full buildout, I'd really like to see some renderings just of that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 09, 2015, 09:39:16 AM
I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.

Having covered for Sun News Stark's Crocker Park project from idea to ribbon-cutting, and also breaking the story on his Pesht concept for the Warehouse District, I got to know Bob Stark fairly well about 10 years ago. Before Crocker Park, Stark was well-known for his strip shopping centers. And that's it. But he began to add elements of placemaking to his strip centers and power centers, such as the Cinemark at Valley View or the Promenade in Westlake. In fact, the plaza next to Borders at the Promenade was the spark of his inspiration for Crocker Park, as were neo-traditional developments in Florida like Mizner Park, Boca Raton and, to a lesser degree, Disney's Celebration.

But the Promenade itself was supposed to be more than what it was when Stark first proposed it and sought rezoning for it in the late 1980s. Instead of a strip shopping center, it was to be a mixed-used development adding a hotel, offices and an indoor atrium to his retail. Instead, Westlake got a strip center. So when Stark announced Crocker Park and listed all of the retailers who had signed letters of intent, including his intended anchor Nordstrom's, some people were very excited. Others who were skeptical had their skepticism justified when Nordstrom's never came -- nor did any other department store. So his reputation of over-promising continued and later was strongly reinforced with the failure of Pesht.

Let's be fair about a couple of things with Pesht. First, he didn't have full site control. He was going to develop properties owned by Weston. He also needed TIF financing from the county for infrastructure improvements and more control over the design of city streets in Warehouse District. Neither the county or city were buying what he was selling. Stark lamented that county and city officials could not grasp what he was planning and were very difficult to work with. After the first phase of Crocker Park opened in the fall of 2004 and I broke the story of Pesht soon thereafter, Cleveland's foreclosure crisis was already leading the nation into the Great Recession. Cleveland was one the nation's first no-fly zone for lenders. At the same time, Stark was now fighting cancer and his son Ezra had not yet jumped into the family business. So Pesht wasn't going anywhere. Even Weston, which did have site control, tried to make its own scaled-down version of Pesht happen along Frankfort but failed too.

Yet Crocker Park, aside from the Nordstrom's/department store omission, is just about everything Stark said it would be. When it opened in 2004 at a cost of more than $400 million (and still climbing with the addition of housing and American Greetings's HQ), it was no small endeavor. Same with Eton Collection, which is somewhere between a strip mall and new urbanism. What is there now is certainly an improvement over what stood before and is a significant investment. Stark is one of the few real estate developers in Northeast Ohio who is willing to experiment with his designs, retail mixes and incorporating pedestrianism and mixed use. He wants his developments to be more than conduits for him and his tenants to make money. He wants customers to remember where they spent their money (hence his motto: "It's all about the experience"). Most other developers are content with replicating cookie-cutter conduits that get a new facade every 10-20 years.

Sometimes his eyes are bigger than his muscles which cannot always lift what he wants to deliver. But I think that's the essence of his desire to experiment and try new things. And each time he finds something that succeeds, he'll create new cookie-cutter molds for others to replicate. A new-construction, mixed-use, high-rise in downtown is certainly a pioneering endeavor for downtown Cleveland. And I wouldn't expect anyone other than Bob Stark to be the first to try it. Now that I'm out of the newspaper business, I can officially say: "I'm pulling for you, Bob."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 09, 2015, 10:06:57 AM
Great insight. Thank you, KJP! If nothing else, his rhetoric is at least inspiring. We'll see what happens, but I'm leaning a bit more on the optimistic side regarding this project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 09, 2015, 10:34:09 AM
As for Stark, it's time to move on.  Whatever he did in the past is of little consequence now because he currently is putting his money where his mouth is which, however, consistent with his bold promises of the past -- he's conceived a development that is big; really big; a total game-changer...

As for the design: I really like the rendering Michelle highlights in her article which, apparently, is the one being submitted to the CPC.  It's bold, daring yet physically attractive and modern imho.  And esp breaking with Cleveland's more recent short-building past (sans the currently a-building Hilton a few blocks away), it's vertical!! The one (hotel) bridge is highly innovative and will draw the architectural eyes of the world onto Cleveland... I'm glad they're not going with that one concept drawing with the 2 bridges, which is an ugly monstrosity -- it looks like a futuristic Rube-Goldberg smelting factory on steroids.  The correct concept is moving forward.

This tower will probably dwarf the nearby Terminal Tower, just because of its size, density and eye-catching nature.  And as i noted several pages ago, this project is going to alter downtown's paradigm in terms of main retail/energy locus... Prospect will be the new center of activity, certainly from a recreational, retail and residential standpoint although, of course, Euclid will still functionally remain Cleveland's main street, at least geographically (it's the central, main, longest street out of downtown where, over a distance of miles, it forms the spine of business, education, medical, business, etc...).  But make no mistake, in downtown, Prospect will now be THE STREET.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 09, 2015, 10:38:25 AM
... and with high-density of apartment and hotel residents that will be plopped down in this relatively small space just a few blocks away from the soon-to-open supermarket at Euclid/E. 9th, I'm sure the Heinen brothers are salivating right about now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on January 09, 2015, 10:50:51 AM
This tower will probably dwarf the nearby Terminal Tower, just because of its size, density and eye-catching nature.

In my view, this is a negative.  Both 600'+ towers in the vicinity were designed to compliment Terminal Tower.  This clashes with all three of them.

As was said earlier, this design would be fine for a 20-25 style building.  But for something that's going to be a focal point of the skyline?  Not so good.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 09, 2015, 10:55:08 AM

In my view, this is a negative.  Both 600+ towers in the vicinity were designed to compliment Terminal Tower.  This clashes with all three of them.

As was said earlier, this design would be fine for a 20-25 style building.  But for something that's going to be a focal point of the skyline?  Not so good.

Oh there's going to be some push-back because of what you say... As you know, downtown Cleveland buildings seem either big or small depending on one's approach to the city.  From the Shoreway East, nuCLEus will probably appear a lot less dominant than from I-71 SW...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on January 09, 2015, 11:46:05 AM
I don't see this potentially taking renters away from May and Huntington if those are converted.  Would it be safe to assume that the rents in Starks development would be much higher than the typical rents that you would see in a historic building conversion?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YO to the CLE on January 09, 2015, 11:47:11 AM
I know everyone was let down by the Warehouse District proposal (which if this is successful will surely be the next puzzle piece to fall), but this time just feels different. I think Bob Stark feels that  too. Downtown as little as 3 years ago was much different than it is now. Residential living back then was still in it's infancy with Pinnacle being...well... the Pinnacle of downtown housing.

Fast forward a short time and we have some serious momentum going on right now. Far from the occasional building conversion  of the past. It seems like the good news just keeps coming. Even the neighborhood development just feels like it's really picking up steam. I think we can confidently say that 2014 was the year Cleveland turned the corner. The rest of the world is beginning to realize this too.

Personally, I feel like that is the difference between Pesht and this. Back then, that felt like a dream. This feels real
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on January 09, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.

I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.

I don't think many here are trying to make Stark out to be a flaky developer, just that there have been so many announced projects over the last quarter century and the majority have not had a ground breaking, or steel rising, including Stark's Warehouse Project.

Remember Ameritrust Center and the glass tower after it, both announced for the Jacobs PS site. How about Courthouse Square on Lakeside Ave. just west of west 9th street. There was also plans for the Museum of Transportation & Industry on the lakefront; the never constructed condo tower on E. 6th & Euclid, etc.. These are just a few of the un-built projects that were announced in the past.

I will smile a lot more when I see ground broken, and steel rising for NuCLEus.



That is true but those weren't all Stark developments.  I think the WHD project from Stark was a little too ambitious, plus he owns the nuCLEus property unlike the WHD lots.  I would think that would help speed this up a bit no?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 09, 2015, 12:33:13 PM
^It is like any development project large or small...can he "position" the project so he can get the financing.  We all know this is the big nut.  At this time he does not have it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 09, 2015, 12:47:43 PM
Some interesting tidbits from Michelle in the comments section of her nuCLEus article:

Thanks for commenting. The question about new office space is a fair one. In the case of the Flats East Bank project, most of the tenants at the E&Y Tower came from other downtown buildings - many of them from the former Huntington Building at East Ninth Street and Euclid Avenue. Some of those tenants, including Ernst & Young, wanted newer, more efficient space, which wasn't available in the central business district.
Tenants who want a different sort of product are driving demand, but the overall office vacancy rate in downtown Cleveland doesn't make a slam-dunk case for new construction.
It will be interesting to see whether the Flats developers can line up enough tenants to support a second, smaller office building, whether Stark and J-Dek can generate enough interest to make nuCLEus happen and whether there's demand for potential office space at the proposed Cumberland Development/Trammell Crow project on the downtown lakefront. And, of course, there are other downtown properties that have cropped up as potential office-construction sites over the years.

Michelle


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/first_look_nucleus_project_ren.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 09, 2015, 12:59:53 PM
I think I've identified the "inspiration" for this design....

(http://holykaw.alltop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/32129521-media_httpfarm7static_HvJII.jpg)

On a serious note, my initial reaction is skepticism.  Nobody around here aims higher and bigger than Stark.  We saw that with Pescht, which I'm not sure would've been fully built even without the market crash.  My other thought was that I don't care for the height in this location.  I would actually prefer more equality between the two towers, taking 10-15 floors off the taller one and adding them to the smaller tower.  JMHO.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BCCLE1 on January 09, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
I don't see this potentially taking renters away from May and Huntington if those are converted.  Would it be safe to assume that the rents in Starks development would be much higher than the typical rents that you would see in a historic building conversion?

I agree! I too do not see the NuCLEus project taking away from other apt. projects announced, and it the works. The majority of the apt. projects announced are to be in rehabbed/repurposed buildings vs NuCLEus which is new. Of the three new apt/condo projects announced for downtown CLE in the last number of years, two (E. 6th & Euclid, and the proposed Ferrari project) are either already dead, or most likely dead. I could be wrong though. The East Bank Apt. project is the only new project currently under construction.

I am not counting the CSU apts. as those were build for the most part to meet the housing demand for students of CSU who want to live on campus.

Think about it, on the thread that discuss downtown living there are plenty of reports showing a very high demand for apts downtown. The projection is for 20k residents living in downtown CLE by 2020/2021. If these projections for demand for downtown living are correct, with a population of 20k vs the current 13k, that means an increase of 7k more residents in approx. 5-6 years. With that many new/potential residents, 500 new apts/condo's in the NuCLEus project, would definitely  not have a negative impact on the other already announced projects. The NuCLEus project will attract those who not only want new apts/cond's over rehabbed/repurposed  buildings, but those who can afford the higher rents too.
500 apt's/condo's in a downtown that will need approx. 4k-5k apt's/condo's by 2020/2021 only meets about 10% of the future need.

The 200,000 sq ft of office space as part of the Nucleus project is not really a lot of office space for a downtown that has approx. 24-25 million sq ft already. The office space need thread for downtown CLE has said there is going to be a need for new class "A" office space, and that for any company looking to either move downtown, of relocate from their current downtown office space into other class "A" office space in the near future, there are very few options if the need is for 100,00 sq ft or more. So the 200,00 sq ft Nucleus is proposing as part of its project would help downtown IMO.

To me the riskiest part of the Nucleus project is the hotel rooms, but I could be wrong. What with all the hotel rooms currently under construction, can the CLE support another hotel? I don't know.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 09, 2015, 04:03:22 PM
Projects like nuCLEus and others in Downtown Cleveland aren't just drawing from the metro but from more expensive cities where it seems people are looking for less expensive, high-amenity cities. And the recent press from coastal publications (starting at: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4179.msg739337.html#msg739337) that Cleveland is a top city to visit in 2015 can't hurt in getting the word out that we're worth a look. And charging $2 to $3 per square foot for new-build residential with quality finishes is a huge bargain to them.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: simplythis on January 09, 2015, 05:07:05 PM
Channel 19 Story. http://www.19actionnews.com/story/27804230/new-drawings-released-of-downtown-development-project-nucleus
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on January 09, 2015, 06:09:00 PM
The only thing I would change to the tower's design is the randomly-placed balconies. Besides that, I like the look of the building. Placing the hotel in the bridge portion is a really interesting concept, too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on January 09, 2015, 10:19:41 PM
 

It looks clunky, frankly.  I think it would be more palatable at 20-25 stories, which would blend in better with the heights of surrounding buildings and make downtown look more dense. 



aww man the irony of your handle….!   :wink:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on January 09, 2015, 10:30:54 PM
I'm very hopeful for this project and for a soon ground breaking date. I'm hearing it could be complete by 2017.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: dave68 on January 10, 2015, 02:32:09 AM
i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 10, 2015, 06:09:00 AM
i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

I love the design and project, but I think it slows down other residential projects from breaking ground.  I think developers will sit back, and see how this masssive project absorbs the market before they kick anything off. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on January 10, 2015, 06:37:51 AM
i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

I love the design and project, but I think it slows down other residential projects from breaking ground.  I think developers will sit back, and see how this masssive project absorbs the market before they kick anything off. 

How does it hinder?  With almost no vacancy rate downtown, this is just keeping up with demand.  Plus, not everyone will want live in a high rise (I personally love it).  I take the opposite view.  This may very well spur the construction of more speculative ventures and ease the conversion of May Company/Huntington.  New construction (which is lagging in CLE) of apartments as signals growth.  There is plenty of room for both conversion and new.

As for the design, it's neither good nor bad.  But it is unique for CLE.  I've read above where today's chic is tomorrow's eyesore.  But if properly maintained, it will be a differnt take on the skyline for some decades to come.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 10, 2015, 10:07:54 AM
forget about the Ferarri dealership. Not happening. Never was
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: heightsfan on January 10, 2015, 11:59:57 AM
i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

I love the design and project, but I think it slows down other residential projects from breaking ground.  I think developers will sit back, and see how this masssive project absorbs the market before they kick anything off. 

How does it hinder?  With almost no vacancy rate downtown, this is just keeping up with demand.  Plus, not everyone will want live in a high rise (I personally love it).  I take the opposite view.  This may very well spur the construction of more speculative ventures and ease the conversion of May Company/Huntington.  New construction (which is lagging in CLE) of apartments as signals growth.  There is plenty of room for both conversion and new.

As for the design, it's neither good nor bad.  But it is unique for CLE.  I've read above where today's chic is tomorrow's eyesore.  But if properly maintained, it will be a differnt take on the skyline for some decades to come.

Hard to see how this spurs renovation of May Co and Huntington.  With a near 95% or so occupancy rate downtown, those projects can't seem to get off the ground without major historic tax credits or other public funding.  I don't see how a new mega tower, which inevitably will reduce the occupancy rate in existing buildings, helps lenders feel more comfortable about those projects.  Of course, this is all speculation since the Stark project is far from being realized in its current form, or any form for that matter. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on January 10, 2015, 12:36:41 PM
what makes you automatically assume it would reduce occupancy rates? its classic mixed use, so 2/3rds of the "mega" is hotel/retail, not residential. so its not that many apts. if anything new build will attract a lot more occupancy to downtown. this project is riding the steamroller back to the city movement trend that is in full swing in every downtown in america. millenials prefer downtown and empty nesters and retirees are into it as well. a developer can get on board with that or be left behind building their same old cathedral ceiling mcmansions in cornfields that nobody wants anymore. add to it that cleveland has never had such sustained, consistent good press, so the time is now for new construction to compliment all these rehabs. it will also indirectly help may co and other properties because it will attract other developer and investor attention, both local and far flung.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Glenville on January 10, 2015, 02:13:24 PM
Considering zoning approval, financing and design, what do you think is the probability of NuCLEus happening. Is financing shaky? I thought it was a pretty wrapped up deal. Cleveland skyline and urban scene really need this kind of boost. The building might spur a Gateway neighborhood of modern medium and high rise residential towers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on January 10, 2015, 02:20:13 PM
forget about the Ferarri dealership. Not happening. Never was

You're probably right, but there is actually a surprising (albeit small) possibility that it could happen. There's a lot of insight from the user "I love pizza" on this thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,29423.0.html

I know you're aware of that since you posted on that thread a few times, but I'd like others to see it too. I think if the NuCLEus project is successful, it could only help the Ferrari project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on January 10, 2015, 02:57:06 PM
I'm not upset or disappointed that this tower doesn't "pay homage" to terminal tower by blending in with it. I'm impressed with the architecture and innovation in the Terminal Tower design but I feel Cleveland residents try to hold on to tradition too much. I feel like that has help our skyline back from a design stand point. It is 2015 I don't want to see another tan and beige colored building because that would help it blend in with terminal tower. I want to see a striking design that catches my eye and brings Cleveland's skyline into the 21st century and this is it (along with the Hilton hotel). If this was built in Chicago it would be praised, but because it is in traditionalist Cleveland it is to striking of a design. Tradition is not bad but some things can be changed over time. This building is what Cleveland needs as far as design, street presence and height.

Also I don't mind this building being tall on prospect just because all the other buildings are short. There was a time when buildings on superior weren't very tall as well as public square but things slowly changed and began to blend well together. Overall I love the design and boldness of this project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on January 10, 2015, 03:24:02 PM
I lIke the tower, especially the bridge portion.  I hope this project  kickstarts other projects such as the WHD. Those empty parking lots need to go!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on January 10, 2015, 07:13:32 PM
I'm not upset or disappointed that this tower doesn't "pay homage" to terminal tower by blending in with it. I'm impressed with the architecture and innovation in the Terminal Tower design but I feel Cleveland residents try to hold on to tradition too much. I feel like that has help our skyline back from a design stand point. It is 2015 I don't want to see another tan and beige colored building because that would help it blend in with terminal tower. I want to see a striking design that catches my eye and brings Cleveland's skyline into the 21st century and this is it (along with the Hilton hotel). If this was built in Chicago it would be praised, but because it is in traditionalist Cleveland it is to striking of a design. Tradition is not bad but some things can be changed over time. This building is what Cleveland needs as far as design, street presence and height. Also I don't mind this building being tall on prospect just because all the other buildings are short. There was a time when buildings on superior weren't very tall as well as public square but things slowly changed and began to blend well together. Overall I love the design and boldness of this project.

Agreed - if this was proposed for the site where the Renaissance Hotel sits, *then* I'd say they need to pay homage. I posted the following on the skyscraperpage.com forum- "You have all this interesting 'texture' going on with the base and the apartment tower balconies... then the skybridge is just a flat glass facade? I see in the renderings they show some of the cross-bracing but that will only be visible at night, if at all. They said the skybridge is an homage to the historic bridges along the Cuyahoga River - well, I get that they want "sleek" for the development, but this is just *too* sleek, it needs more heft to it. 'Sleek' doesn't have to mean a flat glass curtain wall. I'm not an architect or engineer so no idea if it's feasible but I think if they played up the structural components of the bridge (i.e. Foster's HSBC Building in Hong Kong), that would help the design a *lot*. Then there's the question of the office building (the shorter tower) and what it will look like, and how the skybridge is incorporated. Right now, it just looks arbitrarily placed there without any thought to how those components interact. It's early on in the development and I'm sure the project will be revised as things progress but that's my take for now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on January 11, 2015, 07:36:43 AM
i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

I love the design and project, but I think it slows down other residential projects from breaking ground.  I think developers will sit back, and see how this masssive project absorbs the market before they kick anything off. 

How does it hinder?  With almost no vacancy rate downtown, this is just keeping up with demand.  Plus, not everyone will want live in a high rise (I personally love it).  I take the opposite view.  This may very well spur the construction of more speculative ventures and ease the conversion of May Company/Huntington.  New construction (which is lagging in CLE) of apartments as signals growth.  There is plenty of room for both conversion and new.

As for the design, it's neither good nor bad.  But it is unique for CLE.  I've read above where today's chic is tomorrow's eyesore.  But if properly maintained, it will be a differnt take on the skyline for some decades to come.

Hard to see how this spurs renovation of May Co and Huntington.  With a near 95% or so occupancy rate downtown, those projects can't seem to get off the ground without major historic tax credits or other public funding.  I don't see how a new mega tower, which inevitably will reduce the occupancy rate in existing buildings, helps lenders feel more comfortable about those projects.  Of course, this is all speculation since the Stark project is far from being realized in its current form, or any form for that matter. 

But that was then and this is now.  The tax credit contingency was pre nuCLEus.  Now that a developer is obtaining financing for new construction this makes lending on the rehabs less risky and the those developers will be able to obtain better rates making the tax credit less necessary.   Plus, how does this reduce occupancy at existing buildings?  You are assuming a zero sum game where every new unit occupied deceases the occupancy of existing units.  As it is forecast that an additional 7-10 thousand people will move downtown by then end of the decade the new construction isn't even keeping up with demand.  Add Huntington and May Company and you are still lagging demand.  A similar construction on Public Square probably wouldn't even satisfy the projected demand.  The office portion of the Project is only 200,000sqft which is not much.  That's approximately the amount that one decent sized law firm would occupy.  I don't know about the hotel though.  I've said on many threads that CLE needs an additional Hilton sized hotel to really compete for the big convention events on a regular basis. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 11, 2015, 08:20:56 AM
I'm not upset or disappointed that this tower doesn't "pay homage" to terminal tower by blending in with it. I'm impressed with the architecture and innovation in the Terminal Tower design but I feel Cleveland residents try to hold on to tradition too much. I feel like that has help our skyline back from a design stand point. It is 2015 I don't want to see another tan and beige colored building because that would help it blend in with terminal tower. I want to see a striking design that catches my eye and brings Cleveland's skyline into the 21st century and this is it (along with the Hilton hotel). If this was built in Chicago it would be praised, but because it is in traditionalist Cleveland it is to striking of a design. Tradition is not bad but some things can be changed over time. This building is what Cleveland needs as far as design, street presence and height. Also I don't mind this building being tall on prospect just because all the other buildings are short. There was a time when buildings on superior weren't very tall as well as public square but things slowly changed and began to blend well together. Overall I love the design and boldness of this project.

I don't care so much about homage to the TT.  Any sense of homage the City owed to its iconic tower was pretty much thrown out the window with 200 PS and Key Tower IMO.  I do feel that, at least on here, the design is getting a pass due to the proposed height of the tower.  This board tends to trend toward being collectively critical of about every rendering/design put out there..... harsh and nitpicky to an extreme IMO sometimes.  But if a supertall is proposed, then we get all googly eyed.

In a cluster of residential towers, I'd think this would be an appealing design.  As a stand alone, somewhat separated element of the skyline, I don't like it.  Charlotte has something similar and it stands out in a bad way IMO.

(http://chrisaustin.net/wp-content/themes/striking/cache/images/IMG_2078a-459x247.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 11, 2015, 08:50:11 AM
That gives Charlotte a "Nashville-ish" look.

If the TT was a bit taller and beefier, it would be easier to remain the iconic building in Cleveland, similar to the Empire State Building.  I compare this situation to the Wrigley Building.  Because of its height, and slenderness, it's tough to not dwarf.  Regardless, no matter what, it will always have a special place in Cleveland's skyline because of it location and design, and the investment being put into PS.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on January 11, 2015, 09:22:27 AM
I wouldn't worry about this becoming the new icon of Cleveland... It will be the cool new building but Terminal Tower is more symbolic. Look at Key Tower, our tallest building, while important is hardly as featured as the TT.  I think if this really gets off the ground and is a success it's going to be amazing and will prompt more new construction around downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: heightsfan on January 11, 2015, 09:48:39 AM
i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

I love the design and project, but I think it slows down other residential projects from breaking ground.  I think developers will sit back, and see how this masssive project absorbs the market before they kick anything off. 

How does it hinder?  With almost no vacancy rate downtown, this is just keeping up with demand.  Plus, not everyone will want live in a high rise (I personally love it).  I take the opposite view.  This may very well spur the construction of more speculative ventures and ease the conversion of May Company/Huntington.  New construction (which is lagging in CLE) of apartments as signals growth.  There is plenty of room for both conversion and new.

As for the design, it's neither good nor bad.  But it is unique for CLE.  I've read above where today's chic is tomorrow's eyesore.  But if properly maintained, it will be a differnt take on the skyline for some decades to come.

Hard to see how this spurs renovation of May Co and Huntington.  With a near 95% or so occupancy rate downtown, those projects can't seem to get off the ground without major historic tax credits or other public funding.  I don't see how a new mega tower, which inevitably will reduce the occupancy rate in existing buildings, helps lenders feel more comfortable about those projects.  Of course, this is all speculation since the Stark project is far from being realized in its current form, or any form for that matter. 

But that was then and this is now.  The tax credit contingency was pre nuCLEus.  Now that a developer is obtaining financing for new construction this makes lending on the rehabs less risky and the those developers will be able to obtain better rates making the tax credit less necessary.   Plus, how does this reduce occupancy at existing buildings?  You are assuming a zero sum game where every new unit occupied deceases the occupancy of existing units.  As it is forecast that an additional 7-10 thousand people will move downtown by then end of the decade the new construction isn't even keeping up with demand.  Add Huntington and May Company and you are still lagging demand.  A similar construction on Public Square probably wouldn't even satisfy the projected demand.  The office portion of the Project is only 200,000sqft which is not much.  That's approximately the amount that one decent sized law firm would occupy.  I don't know about the hotel though.  I've said on many threads that CLE needs an additional Hilton sized hotel to really compete for the big convention events on a regular basis. 

It's definitely not a zero-sum game; but nor is it the case where nuCLEus doesn't poach any existing DT residents.  Under your paradigm, the fact that the E&Y tower filled up with office tenants should mean that the demand for new office space is in crazy demand, but it's not.  Maybe it'll be different for residential, but that assumes existing occupancy and demand rates remain in place over the next 3-5 years, with no intervening economic downturn.  It also assumes that Stark is actually getting financing for the project in its current form, which is far from the case.

Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled that this project is on the table.  But I'm also being realistic.  A project this size, if built, is not necessarily going to spur development of all the other residential conversion projects in the pipeline. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on January 11, 2015, 09:54:38 AM
I disagree that this tower is isolated. It's only 50% more isolated by area from TT/200PS than the big 3 are to each other. You can go and look back at everyone's massing projections on pages 10 and 11 and see that there is not a single shot that resembles that shot of Charlotte, because it always gets caught up in either the big 3, the E9th & Euclid cluster, or caught up with ATT-Huron Road and the Stokes Courthouse. Even when viewed as a person on the street this tower would not look out of place like that Charlotte tower, because Gateway's 7-9 story buildings neighbor 7-9 story buildings and not parking lots.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on January 11, 2015, 11:01:00 AM
Hold up, are people ACTUALLY complaining about a 647' 54 story modern building that will be built on a parking lot and employ an extremely urban ground level?

Think about what you're doing. Think about what we've all been wanting for Cleveland for awhile. Think about how many of those gaps in our renaissance this building is filling.

I love it. I'm cautiously optimistic but feel good about this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: heightsfan on January 11, 2015, 11:29:45 AM
Hold up, are people ACTUALLY complaining about a 647' 54 story modern building that will be built on a parking lot and employ an extremely urban ground level?

Think about what you're doing. Think about what we've all been wanting for Cleveland for awhile. Think about how many of those gaps in our renaissance this building is filling.

I love it. I'm cautiously optimistic but feel good about this.

No one's complaining; there are just people on this board that want the project to be executed in the best way possible for the city.  Just because it's Cleveland, doesn't mean we should expect anything less than residents in NYC, Chicago, and other markets demand when it comes to major development projects.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on January 11, 2015, 11:41:41 AM
Okay, and where are any of us seeing something that ISN'T up to those cities' standards? This design is modern, well thought out, has a great street presence, height, a unique design, etc. etc. It's not like this is some simple box and I'm saying, "oh well it's better than nothing." This is a design that people from around the country are jealous of. Go to the boards on Skyscraperpage and there are many people from many cities commenting on how impressive it is.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: heightsfan on January 11, 2015, 01:41:30 PM
Okay, and where are any of us seeing something that ISN'T up to those cities' standards? This design is modern, well thought out, has a great street presence, height, a unique design, etc. etc. It's not like this is some simple box and I'm saying, "oh well it's better than nothing." This is a design that people from around the country are jealous of. Go to the boards on Skyscraperpage and there are many people from many cities commenting on how impressive it is.

Well, I think others can and do disagree.  But that's just one local denizen's opinion.  I recognize, and respect that others may disagree. I also recognize that it's more than likely that the current design is going to evolve over time.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jeremyck01 on January 11, 2015, 02:19:51 PM

No one's complaining; there are just people on this board that want the project to be executed in the best way possible for the city.  Just because it's Cleveland, doesn't mean we should expect anything less than residents in NYC, Chicago, and other markets demand when it comes to major development projects.

I don't think anyone on this board said this design isn't up to other cities standards "just because it's Cleveland" or that the project isn't going to be well executed "just because it's Cleveland". Perhaps it's just you with the "just because it's Cleveland " insecurity.  Others have come to expect good projects and design for Cleveland because that has been what's happening over the last few years: Mariner's Watch, MOCA, CMA, the new Hilton, and Uptown, just to name a few. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fmp in nyc on January 11, 2015, 02:31:18 PM
Truthfully, I think that's what makes Cleveland look interesting is there are a few buildings built from each period of architectural style.  We have the solid linestone buildings from the early part of the 20th century when Cleveland WAS American industrial muscle, the 60s era buildings (ie The Federal building which looks like a giant ice cube) the BP building is 80s postmodern, the Key Tower screams 90s, etc.  I think a 2010s era skyscraper will fit the skyline well.   :shoot: :whip: :drunk:
-another thing I really like about the design is Cleveland has a beautify horizontal "skyline".  When you come over the I-90 bridge, you see all of the bridges crossing the flats, and the white stone buildings facing the river kinda makes it look like a fortress city.  I'm glad our friends at NBBJ noticed this as well.  (I am a HUGE fan of the bridge design).  However, I don't like the void it creates in the tower.  I'd like to see how the top of the tower would look shifted off-axis. :clap:


PS: Cleveland should only refer to itself as a Great Lakes City, putting ourselves in the company of Chicago and Toronto and leave the Midwest moniker for Topeka Kansas or Iowa.  Dig?  It's more geographically accurate. (-this rant inspired by people on message boards talking about the Midwest.  The Midwest thing is a term coastal snobs use because they are geographically ignorant)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 8Titles on January 11, 2015, 09:04:55 PM
Agree on scrapping the Midwest moniker in favor of Great Lakes for Cleveland.  Mideast would also make sense if there was such an animal.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 12, 2015, 09:42:59 AM
Hold up, are people ACTUALLY complaining about a 647' 54 story modern building that will be built on a parking lot and employ an extremely urban ground level?

Nobody is complaining about the ground level effect or the fact that it will fill a parking lot.  Some, including myself, don't care for the design of the tower.  It's a subjective opinion.  The height of the building, or the fact that the design is 'modern', does not insulate it from criticism, right?  I have followed this board for well over 5 years and every design gets its fair share of critics on here, and I'm usually the one defending the design.  But, for whatever reason, if it is tall enough, then we fall all over ourselves and can't say a negative word about it.  To me, it should be the other way around.... the more the building is going to stand out for its aesthetic purposes, the more its design should be put under a microscope.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on January 12, 2015, 10:37:40 AM
But people aren't saying that it's not to their taste, they're saying it's not good enough for Cleveland, or not up to proper standards of urbanism, etc. etc. Those things aren't really all that subjective. I don't care if people don't like it stylistically because that's not important. What is important is how it fits into the street grid, how it fills the first floor, how its massing fits into the overall skyline, how its massing completes a disjointed streetwall, etc. etc. Those things are all being handled quite well in these renderings. That's where my confusion stems from.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 12, 2015, 10:52:37 AM
Who said it was not up to the proper standards of urbanism or not good enough for Cleveland?  Maybe some isolated comment, but I think the majority of any negative comments have been limited to the design of the tower...... not from a functionality standpoint.  I love the plans for how it will interact with the street.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: heightsfan on January 12, 2015, 10:59:34 AM
Who said it was not up to the proper standards of urbanism or not good enough for Cleveland?  Maybe some isolated comment, but I think the majority of any negative comments have been limited to the design of the tower...... not from a functionality standpoint.  I love the plans for how it will interact with the street.

I suspect jmichi is referring to me.  Of course, I never said the building wasn't good enough for Cleveland.  What I said was that people in Cleveland should demand that the design gets scrutinized, and not just blindly accepted by the City because it's a super-tall building and/or because we don't tend to see development on this scale, so therefore it should get a pass.     
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: heightsfan on January 12, 2015, 11:00:52 AM
Who said it was not up to the proper standards of urbanism or not good enough for Cleveland?  Maybe some isolated comment, but I think the majority of any negative comments have been limited to the design of the tower...... not from a functionality standpoint.  I love the plans for how it will interact with the street.

I suspect jmichi is referring to me.  Of course, I never said the building wasn't good enough for Cleveland.  What I said was that people in Cleveland should demand that the design gets scrutinized, and not just blindly accepted by the City because it's a super-tall building and/or because we don't tend to see development on this scale, so therefore it should get a pass.   There are some on this board that don't read all that carefully though, and just decide to jump all over someone the moment they express any kind of opinion that doesn't match their own. 
=
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on January 12, 2015, 11:16:31 AM
I'm not upset or disappointed that this tower doesn't "pay homage" to terminal tower by blending in with it. I'm impressed with the architecture and innovation in the Terminal Tower design but I feel Cleveland residents try to hold on to tradition too much. I feel like that has help our skyline back from a design stand point. It is 2015 I don't want to see another tan and beige colored building because that would help it blend in with terminal tower. I want to see a striking design that catches my eye and brings Cleveland's skyline into the 21st century and this is it (along with the Hilton hotel). If this was built in Chicago it would be praised, but because it is in traditionalist Cleveland it is to striking of a design. Tradition is not bad but some things can be changed over time. This building is what Cleveland needs as far as design, street presence and height. Also I don't mind this building being tall on prospect just because all the other buildings are short. There was a time when buildings on superior weren't very tall as well as public square but things slowly changed and began to blend well together. Overall I love the design and boldness of this project.

I don't care so much about homage to the TT.  Any sense of homage the City owed to its iconic tower was pretty much thrown out the window with 200 PS and Key Tower IMO.  I do feel that, at least on here, the design is getting a pass due to the proposed height of the tower.  This board tends to trend toward being collectively critical of about every rendering/design put out there..... harsh and nitpicky to an extreme IMO sometimes.  But if a supertall is proposed, then we get all googly eyed.

In a cluster of residential towers, I'd think this would be an appealing design.  As a stand alone, somewhat separated element of the skyline, I don't like it.  Charlotte has something similar and it stands out in a bad way IMO.

(http://chrisaustin.net/wp-content/themes/striking/cache/images/IMG_2078a-459x247.jpg)

There was never "homage" involved but a certain degree of compliment between the three towers.  The jagged and uneven design doesn't fit at all.   We're not Brasilia, Dubai, or even Phoenix.  We are who we are and while it's not my money and I certainly like the development in principle, we're at heart a traditional town.  I know I sound like the bad guys in The Fountainhead, but IMO this will end up being an eyesore and joke, as designed now, and it's too prominent in the skyline.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: seicer on January 12, 2015, 11:20:05 AM
Hello there. Museum Plaza called.

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSd8nlDrHqiDmdCuhHtwZD0j1A-Ri6qOOObjA4PqqhnLMhPu8K-)

--

I actually like Nucleus better, though :)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on January 12, 2015, 11:27:30 AM
I'm not upset or disappointed that this tower doesn't "pay homage" to terminal tower by blending in with it. I'm impressed with the architecture and innovation in the Terminal Tower design but I feel Cleveland residents try to hold on to tradition too much. I feel like that has help our skyline back from a design stand point. It is 2015 I don't want to see another tan and beige colored building because that would help it blend in with terminal tower. I want to see a striking design that catches my eye and brings Cleveland's skyline into the 21st century and this is it (along with the Hilton hotel). If this was built in Chicago it would be praised, but because it is in traditionalist Cleveland it is to striking of a design. Tradition is not bad but some things can be changed over time. This building is what Cleveland needs as far as design, street presence and height. Also I don't mind this building being tall on prospect just because all the other buildings are short. There was a time when buildings on superior weren't very tall as well as public square but things slowly changed and began to blend well together. Overall I love the design and boldness of this project.

I don't care so much about homage to the TT.  Any sense of homage the City owed to its iconic tower was pretty much thrown out the window with 200 PS and Key Tower IMO.  I do feel that, at least on here, the design is getting a pass due to the proposed height of the tower.  This board tends to trend toward being collectively critical of about every rendering/design put out there..... harsh and nitpicky to an extreme IMO sometimes.  But if a supertall is proposed, then we get all googly eyed.

In a cluster of residential towers, I'd think this would be an appealing design.  As a stand alone, somewhat separated element of the skyline, I don't like it.  Charlotte has something similar and it stands out in a bad way IMO.

(http://chrisaustin.net/wp-content/themes/striking/cache/images/IMG_2078a-459x247.jpg)

There was never "homage" involved but a certain degree of compliment between the three towers.  The jagged and uneven design doesn't fit at all.   We're not Brasilia, Dubai, or even Phoenix.  We are who we are and while it's not my money and I certainly like the development in principle, we're at heart a traditional town.  I know I sound like the bad guys in The Fountainhead, but IMO this will end up being an eyesore and joke, as designed now, and it's too prominent in the skyline.
My thing is this though, change has to start somewhere, just because it doesn't fit now doesn't mean it won't fit in the future. Superior avenue has buildings built in the 50-70s with glass facade that didn't originally mesh with their 20s counterparts but more were built over time to make the street blend well. I go back to Chicago as reference because they have a diverse range of building designs, some look like the designs of terminal tower, and some resemble the look of this proposed tower. I bet people had the same traditional sentiments as some people on here when designs began to change. You look at the Chicago skyline now though and it has world renowned building designs and some people travel there just to marvel at them. The skyline is also considered one of the best in the country some would say the world, all because they allowed change to occur and more modern buildings being built caused the "eye sores" to blend it together.

My point is things evolve over time, and as time progresses building designs that once stuck out begin to blend in. This comes from designers of future buildings wanting to top what was already built or come close to it. If we continue with the tan and beige pencil designs, which are bland that is what we will continue to get.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mu2010 on January 12, 2015, 12:19:57 PM
Am I the only one that has never been that smitten with the Terminal Tower? I have very little technical knowledge of architecture but I find the LeVeque Tower, of a similar date, style, and place, to be more aesthetically pleasing. Something about the TT, it just seems too skinny and too brown, and the top looks too much like a castle at Disneyland.

I was born in 1988 so I have no memory of Cleveland sans Key Tower and BP Tower, therefore I don't have the intense devotion/nostalgia for TT that older Clevelanders seem to have. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a time-honored symbol of our city, and very significant for its day... I just feel that planning future buildings around it is absolutely ridiculous and a surefire way to always be stuck in the past. I think the Terminal Tower would be just lovely 50 years from now as a historical treasure in a bustling city, surrounded by many taller buildings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on January 12, 2015, 12:22:26 PM
^ Blasphemy
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 12, 2015, 12:29:42 PM
Am I the only one that has never been that smitten with the Terminal Tower? I have very little technical knowledge of architecture but I find the LeVeque Tower, of a similar date, style, and place, to be more aesthetically pleasing. Something about the TT, it just seems too skinny and too brown, and the top looks too much like a castle at Disneyland.

(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz254/dapowell/1253744387522.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on January 12, 2015, 01:26:27 PM
There was never "homage" involved but a certain degree of compliment between the three towers.  The jagged and uneven design doesn't fit at all.   We're not Brasilia, Dubai, or even Phoenix.  We are who we are and while it's not my money and I certainly like the development in principle, we're at heart a traditional town.  I know I sound like the bad guys in The Fountainhead, but IMO this will end up being an eyesore and joke, as designed now, and it's too prominent in the skyline.

So is this project not tan or beige enough?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 12, 2015, 01:33:44 PM
If only architects around the world could come up with something other than the two options of (1) this and (2) tan and beige...... but then what would we have to debate on here.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on January 12, 2015, 01:38:15 PM
If only architects around the world could come up with something other than the two options of (1) this and (2) tan and beige...... but then what would we have to debate on here.

We can still debate street-level design functionality I suppose.

Luckily it appears by all accounts that Stark "get's it," thank goodness.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sooner on January 12, 2015, 01:53:37 PM
"By all accounts Stark 'gets it'.  I wish 'it' was financing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 12, 2015, 02:21:56 PM
I haven't seen this angle posted yet which shows greater detail of the horizontal structure along with a rooftop restaurant.....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B68OIf4CQAItzqw.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on January 12, 2015, 02:36:28 PM
DISCLAIMER: I have no idea what I just posted... :)

Life Inside a nuCLEus Architectural Rendering
Posted By Eric Sandy on Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at  2:17 PM

The snow is falling. I try to kid myself into believing something will be different when I wake up each morning – perhaps just a cold rain? – but the snow never stops. It's been years since we last saw the sun.

 Before I return to the mines for the day, nuCLEus Bot 2021 has ordered me to retrieve a satchel of goods from across the river. There was a time when I might have argued, but the bots' heat-seeking laser vision is unbearable when discharged. We know all too well the fury of our nuCLEus masters. Even frozen skin feels pain if it's sharp enough, I guess.

 I've pretty much acclimated myself to the routine by now. Upon leaving our cell blocks, Class 2020 nuCLEus Bots will strip and flay our bodies, further instilling the Tower's rigorous political dynamics. We will be ushered to the ground floor, where the Shift Supervisor will inspect our data chips and update our internal tracking algorithms. A temporary Shadow Bot will be assigned to accompany us on our excursion outside the nuCLEus. If all goes well, we'll make it back to the Tower with only mild delirium and but a few broken bones.

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2015/01/12/life-inside-the-nucleus-architectural-rendering
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on January 12, 2015, 02:50:33 PM
^ So, was that some kind of long-winded satirical way of saying that the NuCLEus tower looks like some kind of futuristic citadel in an authoritarian dystopian society?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 12, 2015, 02:58:49 PM
Sounds like Eric Sandy, my former co-worker at Sun, needs a vacation....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: yanni_gogolak on January 12, 2015, 03:32:19 PM
^ So, was that some kind of long-winded satirical way of saying that the NuCLEus tower looks like some kind of futuristic citadel in an authoritarian dystopian society?

Sounds like he got snowed in with no TV and only a VHS copy of Gattaca.

(http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab62/ygogolak/2-Gattaca-quotes_zpsonq9eeis.gif)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: LovesIt on January 13, 2015, 12:29:50 AM
Does anyone remember if there was this kind of criticism of the BP Building when it was proposed? Because I think that building has aged worse than the nuCLEus tower will.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ClevelandBrowns on January 13, 2015, 01:34:29 AM
Good Lord is this discussion boring!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on January 13, 2015, 06:47:52 AM
Thankfully you've come along to share some enlightenment with us? ;-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on January 13, 2015, 08:51:05 AM
Does anyone remember if there was this kind of criticism of the BP Building when it was proposed? Because I think that building has aged worse than the nuCLEus tower will.
One thing I've heard is they wanted it to be shorter that terminal tower, the original design had it being taller.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 13, 2015, 09:35:37 AM
I think there was also some angst about how 200 PS blocked the view of the Terminal Tower on the inbound east shoreway.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on January 13, 2015, 09:36:25 AM
^A valid discussion but not necessarily for this thread.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 13, 2015, 09:51:54 AM
Sherman posted the Museum Plaza rendering back a page, and I remember when that came out, how much I hated the "Jenga" nature of it.  Something about nuCLEus has me excited however.  I will say, there is no way you can't make this a focal point of the skyline in it's current design.  The bridge connecting the buildings is so intrusive on the ovreall development, and the skyline.  If you remove that, and have three seperate buildings, there may be more cohesion between nuCLEus and the rest of the skyline, and it may work better. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 13, 2015, 06:09:41 PM
Does anyone remember if there was this kind of criticism of the BP Building when it was proposed? Because I think that building has aged worse than the nuCLEus tower will.
One thing I've heard is they wanted it to be shorter that terminal tower, the original design had it being taller.

Not true. Check out:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,16802.msg740304.html#msg740304
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 14, 2015, 01:31:43 AM
No graphics posted on this yet.....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2015/01162015/DRC2015_1_15.pdf

Downtown/Flats
Design Review Agenda
Thursday January 15th, 2015
Cleveland City Hall
Room 514

*Schematic Design Approval
3. Project: DF2014-110 nuCLEus
Project Address: 320-630 Prospect Avenue
Project Representative: Steven H. Coven, Stark Enterprises, Inc.;
*Denotes agenda item will also appear before the Cleveland City Planning Commission the
following day, Friday, January 16th, 2015.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on January 14, 2015, 05:58:35 PM
Innovative NBBJ design for hotel in bridge over street in Stark's nuCLEus project raises intriguing questions for city (analysis)

"City officials will confront an unusual and fascinating question over land use and zoning Thursday and Friday as they consider "schematic" design approval for developer Robert Stark's architecturally innovative nuCLEus development downtown. The question is whether to allow Stark to build a five-level hotel in a bridge structure that would span East Sixth Street between Prospect Avenue and Huron Road at a height of 18 stories, or 234 feet over the pavement below. In addition, the proposal also calls for at least one and possibly two bridges that would span East Sixth Street to carry cars between garage levels on either side."

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/01/innovative_nbbj_design_for_hot.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on January 14, 2015, 06:23:44 PM
I really hope that the hotel bridge ends up as part of the project.   This is my favorite part of the design and is very innovative and unique. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 14, 2015, 07:33:34 PM
^Ditto.  It absolutely adds the WOW factor.  Plus, I think the tower, and the rest of the complex, is aesthetically pleasing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on January 14, 2015, 07:36:59 PM
Hmm according to the article, the design also calls for one (or maybe two) smaller "bridges" to connect the parking garages. I am a big fan of the hotel bridge. Not such a big fan of the car bridges...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 14, 2015, 07:56:41 PM
Litt states in the article that this is the first skyscraper to be built in Cleveland in a quarter century.  How tall does a building have to be to be considered a skyscraper?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 14, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Litt states in the article that this is the first skyscraper to be built in Cleveland in a quarter century.  How tall does a building have to be to be considered a skyscraper?

A 'skyscraper' is typically defined as 500 feet and higher
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on January 14, 2015, 09:32:47 PM
How can E6th really be considered a street? 
Not just in reference to this project but the zoning process in this City is totally ridiculous.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on January 14, 2015, 10:03:59 PM
OK, so it's no longer a street. Now it's just a public right of way. You're welcome.   :wink:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on January 14, 2015, 11:15:19 PM
How can E6th really be considered a street? 
Not just in reference to this project but the zoning process in this City is totally ridiculous.
That was my thought as I read it and I believe my comments alluded to that as well. I don't have a problem necessarily, but we haven't seen any E6 renders from street level.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on January 15, 2015, 08:08:53 AM
Litt states in the article that this is the first skyscraper to be built in Cleveland in a quarter century.  How tall does a building have to be to be considered a skyscraper?

A 'skyscraper' is typically defined as 500 feet and higher

The Council of Tall Buildings and Urban Habitats defines skyscrapers as anything above 12 floors/35 meters/115 feet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mov2Ohio on January 15, 2015, 09:06:13 AM
^Ive heard 20 stories or more.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 15, 2015, 09:16:04 AM
Litt states in the article that this is the first skyscraper to be built in Cleveland in a quarter century.  How tall does a building have to be to be considered a skyscraper?

A 'skyscraper' is typically defined as 500 feet and higher

The Council of Tall Buildings and Urban Habitats defines skyscrapers as anything above 12 floors/35 meters/115 feet.

I had hoped May Day would have weighed in...in any event I personally consider the Federal Courthouse and E and W to be skyscrapers which means Litt is kinda blowing smoke.

Actually I think his whole article was a bit "dramatic" given the issue he was discussing.  Things must be slow.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on January 15, 2015, 09:28:10 AM
What do I know about skyscrapers ;-) Yes, the general standard is the CTBUH measurement.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on January 15, 2015, 09:53:37 AM
Here's the document being submitted to the city review committee today. 


www.documentcloud.org/documents/1502590-20150113-city-stark-comments.html#document/p1
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: uastudent12 on January 15, 2015, 10:34:15 AM
Thank god for the new rebranding....The original logo looked so tacky.

Looks like a solid plan. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on January 15, 2015, 10:52:55 AM
Page 50 is disconcerting as it relates to the "laneway" concept just don't know what is going on there. Page 38 has the locations of the parking garage bridges, but nothing definitive that I caught to tell what they'll look like. Pages 43 and 49 would indicate that there will be no parking garage street access ramps in the A building which is swell.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on January 15, 2015, 10:55:29 AM
The number of residential units has also jumped from 500 to 570. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Enginerd on January 15, 2015, 11:30:06 AM
38% of the space is parking...holy moley!  Can't say I like that, but if that's what it takes to make the project feasible to build so be it. Probably a sure fire money maker (sadly).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on January 15, 2015, 11:56:45 AM
38% of the space is parking...holy moley!  Can't say I like that, but if that's what it takes to make the project feasible to build so be it. Probably a sure fire money maker (sadly).

Welcome Enginerd!  Great name.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 15, 2015, 12:06:07 PM
I go back and forth by the minute on this design.  the more I look at it, it is perfectly square, and not one bit "Jenga-ish".  The play they put on it with some rooms having balconies, and others not, give the building a more dramatic, un-linear look.  If the natural lighting off the buidling does not work as depicted in the renderrings with the shadowing, the building may just look like a perfect tall rectangle. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Enginerd on January 15, 2015, 12:25:38 PM
Thanks MuRrAy HiLL! There was a comic in my University's newspaper titled 'Enginerds.' Who doesn't love a little self-depreciating humor? :)

It seems like the 'Jenga' effect would very much hinge on the type of glass they use on the exterior of the tower.  You can see in the hotel bridge section they show the use of different glass to mimic the effect of the tower.  It looks like the designers intent to me...although in practice I don't know how well it works!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Confiteordeo on January 15, 2015, 01:15:54 PM
I'm really, really curious to see what retail tenants Stark is pursuing.  They seem to show a lot of non-restaurant storefronts in the presentation
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: cle on January 15, 2015, 04:45:53 PM
Side note: Anyone else notice that the 1951 photo on page 6 is an image taken from the opening credits of "A Christmas Story"?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 15, 2015, 05:08:13 PM
Great presentation! Did you also notice he plans to narrow Prospect to two lanes with no on-street parking? The lanes would be replaced with wider sidewalks on both sides of the street.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on January 15, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
yeah now that is a sharp plan that is going to work.

i love it, if stark can't get cooperation on the damn warehouse lots, he just bumps over a couple blocks and goes for it. bravo.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on January 15, 2015, 06:24:38 PM
I'm glad they are wrapping the garage on Prospect and part of East 4th with the apartments.  I wish they would continue that all the way down East 4th.  And I wonder how they think East 6th is going to be "romantic" when it is wedged between two massive parking garages.  It's going to sound like you're inside a parking garage, with horns, engines and doors slamming constantly.  They should wrap those facades, too, if they're serious about making that a destination street.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 15, 2015, 08:57:34 PM
^Good points X.

Glad to see the project was received with positive fan fare this afternoon.  I can really respect the comments that came from the one lady who said that this building gives the sense of an infill structure in an area with similar sized buildings in cities such as NYC or Chicago.  I think that has been my feelings all along, but just haven't been able to figure it out in my own mind.  Being that this will be Clevelands 4th tallest (almost third) I think it may need to be more sleek, and glamorous versus linear and "boxy".  It's essentially 3 boxes arranged in ddifferent patterns. f this was NYC or Chigago's 4th tallest rising, I think it would be much smoother, gentle and subtle.  It';s already tall, everryone will see it, so make it sexy!

From a skyline perspective, it may have a Ren Cen effect in that it stands out alone while the rest of the skyline hides behind it or to the side.  Your eyes may brush over the rest of the skyline, as it almost does with Detroit, and focus directly on this.  I think Ren Cen stole Detroit's beautiful skyline, and I think this may also have a similar effect. 

I love thee project, and I'm sure I will still enjoy it if it gets built as such.  But I really do not want to miss the boat on this one, and have it possibly stain and forever dramatically change the way we view our skyline.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 15, 2015, 09:00:48 PM
I am personally more interested in the projects street interaction than its effect on the skyline, especially in that neighborhood.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on January 15, 2015, 09:05:42 PM
X, if they wraped the whole thing, I wouldn't imagine there being much room left for the parking.

This is different than Detroit.  Ren Cen is the tallest building by a hundred feet and is a huge complex.  Also, it is much further removed from the heart of downtown than nucleus will be.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on January 15, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
X, if they wraped the whole thing, I wouldn't imagine there being much room left for the parking.

This is different than Detroit.  Ren Cen is the tallest building by a hundred feet and is a huge complex.  Also, it is much further removed from the heart of downtown than nucleus will be.

Agreed that Detroit is not a good comparison.   It is set quite a bit apart and dwarfs the closest building.   At least Cleveland will have 4 of similar height arranged in a reasonably close proximity.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on January 16, 2015, 06:37:02 AM
X, if they wraped the whole thing, I wouldn't imagine there being much room left for the parking.

This is different than Detroit.  Ren Cen is the tallest building by a hundred feet and is a huge complex.  Also, it is much further removed from the heart of downtown than nucleus will be.

Unless things have changed during the last decade or so, it's a fortress.  At the SAE show we used to talk about people staying at "Fort Westin".
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 16, 2015, 07:59:32 AM
I'm not saying that this is going to be fortress"like" as the Ren Cen is.   I'm just saying from a skyline perspective, it may have a similar influence.  Despite it not being out tallest, it will overshadow anything else in the city.  Protecting the skyline is also important, and something design review has in mind.  I agree, I am 100% excited about the street level interaction, and the expansion of the city's 24/7 life to the south. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on January 16, 2015, 08:16:28 AM
I'm not saying that this is going to be fortress"like" as the Ren Cen is.   I'm just saying from a skyline perspective, it may have a similar influence.  Despite it not being out tallest, it will overshadow anything else in the city.  Protecting the skyline is also important, and something design review has in mind.  I agree, I am 100% excited about the street level interaction, and the expansion of the city's 24/7 life to the south. 

To some degree this is my own personal bias, I prefer skyscrapers that embrace their height, and this does not.  It would be a perfectly fine and even innovative design for a building half its height.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on January 16, 2015, 08:20:27 AM
There's only been one skyline shot so far and I don't see this building overtaking anything. The skyline is going to continue to grow hopefully. We have many surface lots left.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on January 16, 2015, 08:24:21 AM
The renderings I, and others, did a few pages ago show that this won't dominate the skyline. Nor will it feel separated from the main cluster. This won't feel like the Ren Center.

I also don't think this building would work if it was shorter. Its main massing comes in the form of two long bars stacked, one horizontally, one vertically. If the vertical one was chopped in half it would look really disproportional and squat. Not something it currently feels.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on January 16, 2015, 10:06:23 AM
There's only been one skyline shot so far and I don't see this building overtaking anything. The skyline is going to continue to grow hopefully. We have many surface lots left.

... most notably Public Square, of course.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 16, 2015, 10:09:47 AM
@mjarboe  live tweeting from CPC on nuCLEus:

#CLE Planning Commission discussing proposed nuCLEus project in @GatewayCLE. Up for schematic design OK. Developers seeking demo of 2 bldgs.

#CLE Planning Commission member @cityprowl_jen says we need to do a skyscraper impact study. Look at where new buildings will/should be.

Proposed nuCLEus tower in downtown #CLE would house mix of one- and two-bedroom units, with possible condos - six to a floor - at very top.

Demo of garage, small retail building on nuCLEus site in downtown #CLE could occur in spring. Developers aim to close financing May/June.

Stark Enterprises aims to hand over first retail spaces at nuCLEus to tenants in fall 2016. Openings possible in spring 2017. #CLE

#CLE City Planning Commission gives unanimous schematic design approval to nuCLEus project in @GatewayCLE. Developer obviously will be back.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on January 16, 2015, 10:27:43 AM
I feel like a bit of an outlier here, but I really don't understand this angst about the skyline. Not even a little bit. I often agree with Jennifer Coleman's comments about individual building issues, but she's totally losing me here.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on January 16, 2015, 10:31:21 AM
I don't get worrying about the skyline either. I think people along the line got it in their head that skylines should be really well organized and thought out and that idea is just confusing to me. If you look at some of the most famous skylines around the focal points usually stood out at some point like a sore thumb until the city filled in around them. Look at Chicago when the Sears Tower was first completed. NOTHING around that building was anywhere near that scale. It was basically a handful of buildings no more than 1/3-1/2 the height of the Sears Tower and then BAM, Sears Tower and Hancock Tower anchoring the edges of the skyline. Now things are filled in and the skyline feels well balanced.

Same thing with NYC. Empire State Building was obnoxiously overscaled for its location when it was built, but that was fine because Midtown grew up around it.

This is how skylines grow and change and trying to regulate their growth just leads to less innovation, excitement, and just stunts growth.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: bjk on January 16, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
From the Shoreway east or west I don't this has any impact, nor from out on the lake or the shot everyone uses down by the Center Street swing bridge.

About the only places this would have an overwhelming impact on the skyline would be coming up 77 or from Progressive Field.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BelievelandD1 on January 16, 2015, 11:13:13 AM
From the Shoreway east or west I don't this has any impact, nor from out on the lake or the shot everyone uses down by the Center Street swing bridge.

About the only places this would have an overwhelming impact on the skyline would be coming up 77 or from Progressive Field.


i cant say i agree with that.  Its the 4th tallest building in the city, it will have impact from all angles.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 16, 2015, 11:16:40 AM
I don't get worrying about the skyline either. I think people along the line got it in their head that skylines should be really well organized and thought out and that idea is just confusing to me. If you look at some of the most famous skylines around the focal points usually stood out at some point like a sore thumb until the city filled in around them. Look at Chicago when the Sears Tower was first completed. NOTHING around that building was anywhere near that scale. It was basically a handful of buildings no more than 1/3-1/2 the height of the Sears Tower and then BAM, Sears Tower and Hancock Tower anchoring the edges of the skyline. Now things are filled in and the skyline feels well balanced.

Same thing with NYC. Empire State Building was obnoxiously overscaled for its location when it was built, but that was fine because Midtown grew up around it.

This is how skylines grow and change and trying to regulate their growth just leads to less innovation, excitement, and just stunts growth.
It's not the scale, but rather the design.  And before I go further, I'm just hung up on how I feel.  I need to see the renderrings refined a bit more.  But essentially, you're taking a 20 story building, flipping it horizontally,hoisting it 250 feet in the air,  and anchoring it on two other buildings.  Thrown in the center of Midtown Manhattan, or the Loop in Chicago, it may blend in, and not be quite as noticeable.  At this location, it will most certainly be an extreme eye catcher.  Must be done right.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MissinOhio on January 16, 2015, 11:26:16 AM
From the Shoreway east or west I don't this has any impact, nor from out on the lake or the shot everyone uses down by the Center Street swing bridge.

About the only places this would have an overwhelming impact on the skyline would be coming up 77 or from Progressive Field.


i cant say i agree with that.  Its the 4th tallest building in the city, it will have impact from all angles.

Maybe not so much from northward if you're out on the lake or taking in views from Voinovich Park, but definitely from Edgewater, I-77 northbound, and eastside locations (Garfield Monument especially).  I wonder what it would look like from the Shoreway westbound...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on January 16, 2015, 11:27:04 AM
The general shape and height needs stays the same. I'd like to echo what other posters are saying and that is to see more refinement of the design. I don't under-Stand what the fuss is about in regards to the height of the building in relation to the surrounding buildings. It's supposed to make a statement. As we all know, this is not the final rendering and I am sure the final rendering will be even better.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 16, 2015, 11:34:15 AM
It's next to the AT&T building (aka Daily Planet) which is 27 stories and close to The 9. I do think that if this gets built and fills up pretty fast, the former Hippodrome site between Prospect/Euclid at East 8th alley will see interest as might the site for the Ferrari Building, to say nothing of other, more distant sites (Jacobs lot on Public Square). And I have no doubts if Stark builds this, it will fill up before it opens if not shortly thereafter. I believe the speed at which The 9 filled up (at its higher rents for this market) made nuCLEus realistic.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on January 16, 2015, 12:26:20 PM
I, too, do not understand what all of the fuss is about concerning the skyline.  This is a prime area for future development and there will be future skyscrapers built in this part of town.

I do agree with the comments about this building being infill in Chicago and New York.  I think the building should be more iconic in its design since it will stand out on the skyline and will be one of the first buildings that visitors will notice will coming into town.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on January 16, 2015, 12:40:53 PM
Oh no, not another tall building in my city!
(http://i.imgur.com/CxCOFAL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/iEoZQTA.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/vOROJa5.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/r36gA4n.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 16, 2015, 12:50:51 PM
There's so much to think about here other than height.  Design, functionality, and sustainability all come to mind.  Sustainability is the next thing that floats around in my mind.  Is the city ready for retailers at this point?  Will they be successful?  I think we will find out with Heinen's, which will open before anything here does.  If retailers are not successful here, Cleveland takes a step back with respect to it's comback status.  I tend to believe that we are ready for specific retailers, just not all.  Also, can Cleveland sustain this many more additional units?  At what point do downtown residents give up their older units to move into something new, leaving those vacant.  Similar to what we are seeing with the office market.

These are all just talking points, and thoughts I have had.  This is such a huge project that all of these things must be vetted.  I know we can't tell Stark to "go small or go home", but a part of me almost wishes we could.  I know he's going to do what the market demands at the present, but will we pay for it in to not so distant future (ex. commercial building spree of the 80's and 90's). 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 16, 2015, 01:03:59 PM
Interesting to compare KJP and Gotribe posts.  One is overly optimistic and the other is overly pestimistic.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 16, 2015, 01:11:51 PM
Interesting to compare KJP and Gotribe posts.  One is overly optimistic and the other is overly pestimistic.

How do you know?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on January 16, 2015, 01:29:53 PM
Is the city ready for retailers at this point?  Will they be successful?  I think we will find out with Heinen's, which will open before anything here does.  If retailers are not successful here, Cleveland takes a step back with respect to it's comback status.  I tend to believe that we are ready for specific retailers, just not all.  Also, can Cleveland sustain this many more additional units?  At what point do downtown residents give up their older units to move into something new, leaving those vacant.  Similar to what we are seeing with the office market.
 
Using super conservative numbers, 20,000 downtown residents by 2020 and an average of 2 people per apartment (which is high) we would need an additional 3,750 units to satisfy that need. With education levels growing and average salaries growing for downtown residents, we would need four of these buildings and then some to get to the number of units that are needed. That's not even taking into account if more growth occurs do to the excitement. With all of that will come retail as more people live and play downtown. I agree that a lot of retail is a little scary but this is a developer who does this for a living with a lot of smart analysts.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 16, 2015, 01:39:52 PM
Critique:  I don't like the design because (insert anything other than the height)

Response:  Why do you hate tall buildings so much?!?! 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on January 16, 2015, 01:44:51 PM
Interesting to compare KJP and Gotribe posts.  One is overly optimistic and the other is overly pestimistic.
I'm not overly anything.  It's just not love or hate at first sight for me. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on January 16, 2015, 02:26:44 PM
City review panels unanimously approve Stark and J-Dek nuCLEus development concept

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Amid warm praise and a few caveats and suggestions for improvement, the city's Downtown/Flats Design Review Committee and Planning Commission unanimously approved plans for the massive nuCLEus development for downtown in meetings Thursday and Friday.

"This kind of density is really important to our city," Anthony Coyne, chairman of the Planning Commission, said just before Friday's vote, which the development team of Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon needed for a building permit.

"Great start, guys," said David Bowen, another member of the commission.

The development, for which the developers have not yet said they've completed financing, would include the city's fourth-tallest skyscraper and could have a transformative effect on downtown.

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/01/city_review_panels_unanimously.html#incart_river
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on January 16, 2015, 07:57:05 PM
^ i have to admit i was a little worried they would want to butt in on this project too much, but that outcome was the absolute best case scenario and obviously the most sensible and supportive. it will definately encourage other developers to consider creative projects!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PoshSteve on January 16, 2015, 08:13:19 PM
After alot of thinking over this, I certainly love the height, I love the impact it will have on the skyline, I love the street interaction and retail, and I love the uniqueness. What I dont love is just how the residential tower abruptly ends. Id like to see some setbacks that slim it down at the top some. Not as bulky or as abrupt as the BP building, but something that helps draw the eye in and towards the top. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of the Aura in Toronto.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on January 16, 2015, 08:23:22 PM
^I felt that way at first. Like if the "jenga-esque" nature of the balconies continued into a fragmented crown that felt as if the building was pixelating away at the top. But then I really thought about it and decided that would go against the "stacked-boxes" concept since the tower portion would lose its shape a bit and feel too much like an independent tower rather than another abstract box turned up vertically. I think I'm fine with the flat top even though I'm usually a fan of SOMETHING happening at the top of skyscrapers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on January 16, 2015, 08:32:00 PM
^I very much agree.  With all that is going on with the lower levels I believe some sort of "statement" at the top might be too much.  I would like to see some ideas, but I am liking the box.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on January 17, 2015, 11:59:43 AM
^ flat top = roof access, for the residents if not the public. that could be another possible selling point.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PoshSteve on January 17, 2015, 12:21:10 PM
The roof doesnt need to taper to a fine point or spire, and indeed I personally wouldnt like having another large tower in the skyline like that. I just feel like there could be a happy medium with a few setbacks closer to the top, instead of just an abrupt termination
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on January 17, 2015, 01:01:47 PM
Does anyone know if the hotel will have views of the lake?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on January 17, 2015, 01:09:05 PM
Yes it will, it looks over the relatively low-rise Gateway and Mall areas.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on January 17, 2015, 01:19:50 PM
The plan does not necessitate setbacks, a spire or pointed top.  So why should they be there?  Just to cater to people who think that's the only way to terminate or sculpt a building?  Actually, keeping it a flat roof defers to the Terminal Tower and Key, allowing them to maintain their unique forms in the skyline profile.  What, should we slope the roof so it looks like the Hilton?  No.  The more diversity in our buildings the better.  Other than getting something besides parking to flank the lane way above ground level, I say move forward as is Stark.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ExPatClevGuy on January 17, 2015, 02:00:41 PM
^ @ W28th
I'm all for skyline diversity, but a flat top tower hardly adds that to Cleveland.  I'd suggest most of the towers downtown are flat topped.  Only those with more interesting treatments are able to stand out in a meaningful way.  Even with a flat top though, the height of this tower & the unique surface treatments will make it distinctive anyway.

I think this project is great.  I'm curious what they come up with for the final version.  I'm still holding out hope for something more distinctive for the upper part of the tower. As it is, there's nothing particularly memorable or unique about it.  The tower portion is just ordinary and OK, but if it goes on to gets built as is, it'll hardly be an embarrassment to the city.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Matches on January 17, 2015, 02:13:48 PM
Does anyone know if the hotel will have views of the lake?
Pages 17 and 18 of the presentation indicate views of the lake from as low as 200 feet.   http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1502590-20150113-city-stark-comments.html#document/p18 (http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1502590-20150113-city-stark-comments.html#document/p18)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on January 17, 2015, 07:30:58 PM
Not sure if this one from Litt was posted yet. Nothing really new except this image of a massing study, kind of cool.
http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/01/nbbjs_design_for_robert_starks.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: andrew0816 on January 18, 2015, 11:26:02 AM
^The developer and the designer talked about that in the presentation to the CPC. It was interesting to hear about their process, most of which was a combination of space and natural light needs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: yanni_gogolak on January 19, 2015, 12:44:48 PM
^ @ W28th
I'm all for skyline diversity, but a flat top tower hardly adds that to Cleveland.  I'd suggest most of the towers downtown are flat topped.  Only those with more interesting treatments are able to stand out in a meaningful way.  Even with a flat top though, the height of this tower & the unique surface treatments will make it distinctive anyway.

I think this project is great.  I'm curious what they come up with for the final version.  I'm still holding out hope for something more distinctive for the upper part of the tower. As it is, there's nothing particularly memorable or unique about it.  The tower portion is just ordinary and OK, but if it goes on to gets built as is, it'll hardly be an embarrassment to the city.

The building facade itself is more interesting than pretty much any mid to high rise in Cleveland, let alone Ohio.
How often would you see the top of the builidng? You're using a 5,000 ft. approach to design which should be the last consideration. Even the rendering they have proposed for the skyline is an airplane view.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Summit Street on January 19, 2015, 01:42:59 PM
Does anyone know if the hotel will have views of the lake?

The hotel is about 200 feet up, right?
From Google Earth, this might be the northern view out of the hotel-
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on January 19, 2015, 03:13:17 PM
Just trying to give a little more perspective here.  I think the only place it will really stick out is from Progressive field.  It is really going to block views of 200 PS and Key.

(http://i.imgur.com/HveW9WW.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jQ0LUP5.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/n9Q4H1O.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EUriwrL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/CVlGs4u.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/SEr9eo6.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on January 19, 2015, 03:40:33 PM
^ I feel like i'm having 60's era heavy drug flashbacks looking at those.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on January 19, 2015, 05:12:23 PM
Really like the view from east ninth and prospect.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: musky on January 20, 2015, 09:54:13 AM
@sizzlinbeef - Where did you get that nuCLEus model for Google Earth. I've been hoping one would be available to download
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 20, 2015, 10:08:04 AM
Really like the view from east ninth and prospect.

I agree. I was at this intersection yesterday and thought to myself how it would be nice to have another tower in view from that perspective. Now you can only see the Terminal Tower as the other buildings on Public Square are not in sight.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 20, 2015, 10:12:11 AM
Throw a Ferrari Tower-scale building on that grassy strip in front of the Gateway garage, and a big building where the LeBron banner hangs and that area will be a new skyscraper district.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on January 20, 2015, 10:43:37 AM
@sizzlinbeef - Where did you get that nuCLEus model for Google Earth. I've been hoping one would be available to download

I threw it together in Sketchup and previewed it in Google Earth.  I could send you the kmz if you PM me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 20, 2015, 10:56:58 AM
Time for another one of those models I used to stare at endlessly at Tower City when the mall first opened.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 20, 2015, 11:19:20 AM
Time for another one of those models I used to stare at endlessly at Tower City when the mall first opened.

MayDay posted this a while back at SSP......

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4173086&postcount=34
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 20, 2015, 11:43:51 AM
I had almost forgot about the building which appeared to mimic the Guardians
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clevecane on January 20, 2015, 10:40:41 PM
I had almost forgot about the building which appeared to mimic the Guardians

Oh! I kept thinking "looks like the Comerica Building" in Dallas. But Guardians makes more sense! I think it would be great if we had the Ferrari Building and then have Gilbert add a mixed-used tower on the Phase II land reminiscent of the "2000" plan. Let's hope nuCLEus works and sets the stage for more! Here's to making Cleveland not the "unhappiest place to work!"
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on January 21, 2015, 06:29:05 AM
The thing is, that model you all are using has clean edges, and the renderings do not.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on January 21, 2015, 09:10:22 AM
slizzlin good work - let the massing wars begin! love it
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on January 21, 2015, 10:34:03 AM
The thing is, that model you all are using has clean edges, and the renderings do not.

It does.  It is just the randomness of the balconies which distorts the edges
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on January 21, 2015, 11:52:32 AM
The thing is, that model you all are using has clean edges, and the renderings do not.
Fair enough.
(http://i.imgur.com/g1ZiXt1.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MidwestChamp on January 21, 2015, 01:24:38 PM
Hmmm...so which is better, the city view with the lake in the background or the side where you can sit on your balcony and watch the game, fireworks and everything.  Either way should be pretty sweet!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on January 21, 2015, 01:37:38 PM
Making choices is silly. Head down to the Stark offices and hand over your deposit for a full floor penthouse. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on January 21, 2015, 02:09:03 PM
The thing is, that model you all are using has clean edges, and the renderings do not.
Fair enough.
(http://i.imgur.com/g1ZiXt1.jpg)

But it's not the same color as the renderings!

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/SLIM216/mj.gif) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/SLIM216/media/mj.gif.html)

I kid, I kid.  Thank you for your work giving us some different views on what we can expect from the project!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on January 24, 2015, 04:16:03 PM
There's now a thread to discuss architectural lighting in Project & Construction. Back to nuCLEus :-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mildtraumatic on January 24, 2015, 04:43:56 PM
I love the design. Only thing I worry about is the bridge and interfering with the height. IS this going to happen?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: dave68 on January 26, 2015, 11:37:12 PM
I was reminded at renderings for the proposed Courthouse Plaza of 2008 and striking similarities of design aspects to NuCLEus.  Wish this project was to have been built and I look forward to NuCLEus.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 27, 2015, 12:48:16 AM
I love the design. Only thing I worry about is the bridge and interfering with the height. IS this going to happen?

I just got back from the future in my 1981 DeLorean with the flux capacitor upgrade package and I can tell you without a doubt that this in fact is going to happen.

Seriously though, I forgot all about that Courthouse Plaza proposal. I remember the earlier one, which I think is posted in abandoned projects.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on February 06, 2015, 10:25:40 AM
A couple of pictures of the site shot from Vincenza's Pizza prior to last night's Cavs blowout of the Clippers...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9H1Z-9IQAA-O4U.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9H14IFIIAAg32y.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on February 09, 2015, 08:35:18 PM
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/uoaxe.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: dave68 on February 17, 2015, 07:53:51 AM
I played around with the renderings and added a condo lobby to the tall tower.  I felt breaking up the detail gives another opportunity for programming. I would love to see a restaurant  such as Top of The Town which would interact nicely with Progressive Field.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on February 17, 2015, 06:43:11 PM
I like it. In a way it tones down the "Jenga" look of the tower.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on February 17, 2015, 07:05:53 PM
I really like the aggressiveness of this design, especially the bridge section... I must say that even though I know it's psychedelic effect, the uneven stacked design makes it seem like the tower could easily topple, ... even though I know it won't.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on February 18, 2015, 08:36:22 AM
I really like the aggressiveness of this design, especially the bridge section... I must say that even though I know it's psychedelic effect, the uneven stacked design makes it seem like the tower could easily topple, ... even though I know it won't.

It looks like a mutant breed of glass and steel eating termites attacked.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on February 18, 2015, 10:12:43 PM
I like it. In a way it tones down the "Jenga" look of the tower.

The version done by the professionals is better.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ExPatClevGuy on February 19, 2015, 09:25:17 AM
^ Ouch! 

Short, but with just enough information given so as to be both impolite and disrespectful.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on February 19, 2015, 09:55:22 AM
^ Ouch! 

Short, but with just enough information given so as to be both impolite and disrespectful.

Architects. Put 10 of them in a room together for three hours and none will walk out alive.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on February 19, 2015, 10:34:37 AM
We're not all that bad...maybe some just come out a little beaten up?

Though I do agree that the actual proposal is a better proposal, I see the merit in the study of adding another layer to the tower portion to further extend the idea of visual separation of uses. I'm glad someone took the time to create those mock-ups for discussion as it offers an interesting idea that does work well with the techniques used to create the overall massing of the building(s).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on February 19, 2015, 10:37:46 AM
I like it. In a way it tones down the "Jenga" look of the tower.

The version done by the professionals is better.

So says the guy who harshly criticizes every rendering ever released ;)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on February 19, 2015, 11:29:04 AM
Most renderings are crap, and this is a really nice job of editing the original renderings, but the original is more proportionally appropriate.  Just thought the dissenting view needed to be heard.   :-D

Also please note that that is the first ever face that I've inserted into a post as I'm not trying to be Mr. Negative. :lol:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CLEbertarian on March 04, 2015, 01:22:04 PM
Fun Random Thought Of The Day

Within the next five years we may have two new hotels opening near musically significant buildings. How cool would it be if the hotel flags were appropriate to both settings? I therefore humbly propose that it should of course be a Hard Rock Hotel opening on the lakefront near the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame. But what to brand the hotel within nuCLEus? Given that it will neighbor the Harold and Record Rendezvous buildings on Prospect, it can't be anything other than a Virgin Hotel! It’d only be fitting that a hotel owned by one of the most historically significant record store companies of all time setup shop next door to what used to be one of the most historically significant record stores of all time.

Note I'm just spitballing this... I'm not demanding it or expecting it. And I certainly don't have the resources or networking connections to make either one a reality. It was just a fun random thought that popped into my head that I figured I'd share.  :-D

http://www.hardrockhotels.com/ (http://www.hardrockhotels.com/)
http://virginhotels.com/ (http://virginhotels.com/)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on March 04, 2015, 01:24:01 PM
Hard Rock's considering building a hotel in Northfield.  I doubt they build two.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CLEbertarian on March 04, 2015, 01:35:55 PM
Understood. As mentioned, I'm not holding my breath. It just seems that between those two possible sites, one would be a cool location that's "in the heart of it all" and makes sense for the entire region while the other is... Northfield. Regardless, it was actually the Virgin Hotel at nuCLEus idea that just popped into my head today.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on March 04, 2015, 04:18:33 PM
Whats going on with this project? I haven't seen much update about it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on March 04, 2015, 05:33:20 PM
^ The financing isn't all there yet, so we won't be hearing much until it's there. From what little I hear, insiders are optimistic that the financing will come together.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: flee2thecleve14 on March 04, 2015, 07:22:48 PM
My source (leader of a prominent Cleveland construction firm) told me in December that this project will definitely happen, but it may not occur as quickly as the developer has publicly stated. He implied that it probably will be built in phases (first being parking garage + retail), which is consistent with what has been reported. We will be at the same event in March, so I will see what he's willing to divulge!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on March 04, 2015, 07:30:48 PM
My source (leader of a prominent Cleveland construction firm) told me in December that this project will definitely happen, but it may not occur as quickly as the developer has publicly stated. He implied that it probably will be built in phases (first being parking garage + retail), which is consistent with what has been reported. We will be at the same event in March, so I will see what he's willing to divulge!

The skeptical Clevelander in me fears this.  One little financial crisis and we're left with just another parking structure....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on March 04, 2015, 07:43:08 PM
^well currently on the site there is a surface lot and a "parking structure" which is falling down, has no retail and is not capable of eventually supporting a larger building on top of it so your worse case scenario is better than what we have now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on March 05, 2015, 11:01:04 AM
^well currently on the site there is a surface lot and a "parking structure" which is falling down, has no retail and is not capable of eventually supporting a larger building on top of it so your worse case scenario is better than what we have now.

Touche....and I agree that this would be better.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on March 05, 2015, 11:56:49 AM
I remember Stark indicating he thought financing would be wrapped up by June. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on March 06, 2015, 10:32:22 AM
^ just what i was wondering -- thanks!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 10, 2015, 05:12:34 PM
david jurca ‏@davidjurca  10m10 minutes ago
Will the Midwest's new crop of skyscrapers embrace cities at the human scale? http://archpaper.com/news/articles.asp?id=7899#.VP9alYb3arV … Via @archpaper

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_w75iqVAAERWsX.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 12, 2015, 01:05:28 AM
And so begins the formal approvals process (ie: not conceptual presentations)....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2015/crr03-30-2015.pdf

Board of Zoning Appeals

MONDAY MARCH 30, 2015

9:30
Calendar No. 15-33: 420 through 630 Prospect
& 601 through 611 Huron Ave.
Ward 3
Joe Cimperman
14 Notices
Gateway Huron, LLC., owner, proposes to construct an approximately 650 foot tall, 54 story building
with 885,749 square foot residential/hotel floor area, 119,332 square foot retail area and 492,684
square foot parking area; connected to a second proposed 25 story building up to 350 feet tall with
approximately 244,000 square feet of office area, 16,853 square foot retail area, and 257,600 square
feet of parking area, both on a 130,075 square foot lot in an E5 General Retail Business District and
Semi-Industry District. The owner appeals for relief from the following sections of the Cleveland
Codified Ordinances:
1. Section 355.04(b) which states that in an “E” Area District, the maximum gross floor area of a
residential building cannot exceed one and one-half times the lot area. A maximum gross floor
area of 195,112.5 square feet is permitted: a gross floor of approximately 2 million square feet
is proposed.
2. Section 353.01 which states that in a “5” Height District, maximum height of the building
cannot exceed 250 feet.
3. Section 357.09(b)(2)(C) which states that the interior side yard in the amount of one-fourth
the height of the main building is required.
4. Section 357.08(b)(2) which states that the rear yard in the amount of one-half the height of
the building is required. (Filed February 10, 2015)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on March 14, 2015, 08:12:35 PM
On Friday (3/13/15), Nucleus Jdek LLC filed an amended form D.  The document says that have sold $9.5 million in equity up to this point.  Progress is being made folks.

http://www.secinfo.com/d1hTqh.me.htm
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on March 14, 2015, 08:26:38 PM
Two questions (if any one can answer)

Is the 9.5 at this time inclusive or exclusive of the equity contribution of Stark Enterprises?

What is the standard debt to equity ratio in a development project of this size?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on March 17, 2015, 09:10:19 AM
Looking at the massing, if we could bookend E4th with nuCLEus (can't believe I actually used that term) and 515 tower, downtown CLE would be in real good shape.

Walking by 515 Euclid today, I noticed a Stark Enterprises sign hanging from the top of one of the windows on the ground floor stating 'Now Leasing'.  Did the 515 garage change hands (I may have missed this)?  Or would there be other situations where Stark could lease space there?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on March 17, 2015, 09:26:43 AM

What is the standard debt to equity ratio in a development project of this size?


 70-80%



Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 17, 2015, 09:45:02 AM
Walking by 515 Euclid today, I noticed a Stark Enterprises sign hanging from the top of one of the windows on the ground floor stating 'Now Leasing'.  Did the 515 garage change hands (I may have missed this)?  Or would there be other situations where Stark could lease space there?

Interesting. Harbor Group International still owns "Euclid Avenue Garage LLC" which owns 515 Euclid (along with 200 Public Sq):
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=201432300226

But I noticed that the Cuyahoga County property ownership records show it as "Euclid Avenue Garage LLC & Samal Euclid LLC" but that also lists to Harbor Group:
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=201432300227

So I dunno.....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on March 17, 2015, 10:11:27 AM
That could be a leasing office for nuCLEus
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on March 20, 2015, 11:26:55 AM
Take this for what it's worth, but I've heard rumors from a reliable source that the hotel at Nucleus may be a W. It's still early and nothing is certain, but hey, it's pretty cool that it's even being considered.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on March 20, 2015, 11:55:09 AM
Take this for what it's worth, but I've heard rumors from a reliable that the hotel at Nucleus may be a W. It's still early and nothing is certain, but hey, it's pretty cool that it's even being considered.
That would be awesome!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on March 20, 2015, 12:35:27 PM
Walking by 515 Euclid today, I noticed a Stark Enterprises sign hanging from the top of one of the windows on the ground floor stating 'Now Leasing'.  Did the 515 garage change hands (I may have missed this)?  Or would there be other situations where Stark could lease space there?

Interesting. Harbor Group International still owns "Euclid Avenue Garage LLC" which owns 515 Euclid (along with 200 Public Sq):
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=201432300226

But I noticed that the Cuyahoga County property ownership records show it as "Euclid Avenue Garage LLC & Samal Euclid LLC" but that also lists to Harbor Group:
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=201432300227

So I dunno.....

What about this one?  Stark 515:
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=201431800350
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on March 20, 2015, 01:13:30 PM
I had a meeting with a few folks that are working with Stark on 515 plans.  I think there is more to that sign in the window.  The intent of the meeting was not to discuss the 515 deal, nor was I in the place to ask specifics.  If I learn more, I will pass it along.  All they said was they are working on this which invloves adding multiple stories to the garage. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on March 20, 2015, 01:23:25 PM
^ Hopefully that's not multiple stories of more garage...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on March 20, 2015, 01:32:55 PM
I guess I am confused by a number of the above posts.  Does this mean Stark does have an ownership interest in 515?

And if they do I sure hope we don't get into a biting off more than they can chew scenario.  I'd rather see them focus on Nucleus and get it done right.  Hell right now I would settle for the rehab of the smaller buildings they bought on Prospect that were involved in all that litigation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: goozer on March 20, 2015, 01:46:32 PM
Now that I think about all of the above, I remember seeing a massing proposal for NuCLEus that looked to the north and it showed 515 expanded/topped off.  That kind of stuck out like a sore thumb and looked odd, but maybe not a coincidence afterall?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on March 20, 2015, 01:57:42 PM
Now that I think about all of the above, I remember seeing a massing proposal for NuCLEus that looked to the north and it showed 515 expanded/topped off.  That kind of stuck out like a sore thumb and looked odd, but maybe not a coincidence afterall?
Right, that was shown multiple times.  Part of me feels that Stark will be quiet on the 515 residential.  I think he dosen't want to steal from himself, and fill up 515 with folks that were waiting for NuCLEus to come on online, and see what kind of "walk in" business he can do at 515.  With simply just a sign, and magazine postings.  Just a thought. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 20, 2015, 02:28:05 PM
Jeffrey Wild is an attorney at Benesch, Friedlander, Coplan & Aronoff LLP, one of the state's largest law firms, located in 200 Public Square (former BP Building). He is the incorporator and statutory agent of multiple companies that are or may be associated with Stark....

NUCLEUS DEVELOPMENT, LLC
HEROLD BUILDING, LLC
GATEWAY HURON JOINT VENTURE, LLC
STARK 515, LLC
515 DEVELOPMENT, LLC
STARK MANAGER GATEWAY HURON, LLC

And another company incorporated in the past year (as were the others listed above) but I don't know if it's related to Stark et al:
SEFU, LLC

SOURCE: http://www.bizapedia.com/people/JEFFREY-WILD.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 20, 2015, 02:40:17 PM
From Page 3 of this thread.....

Appears the Stark folks just added the below nuCLEus brochure (dated 9/2014) onto their site. It adds some additional details - including the "laneways" concept - into the mix. Interesting..

Find the brochure download on the left side of this page: http://starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

"nuCLEus will introduce laneways to downtown Cleveland, a unique form of urban place making originating in Melbourne, Australia. The laneway at nuCLEus will be a tight intimate space that offers al fresco eateries, one-off shops and cozy little bars, all nestled side-by-side in a unique alley setting with its own individual character and charm."

Am I seeing things, or does page 9 of the brochure show a tower on 515 Euclid?
I'm seeing the same thing

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7599/16252735264_623cef1097_o.jpg)

And for those who don't remember the renderings of 515 Euclid when the garage was built in 2005 (and later sold during the Great Recession for a fraction of its construction costs):

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7591/16255086213_8565a84b7b_o.jpg)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7603/16255086243_0797e8b776_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on March 20, 2015, 02:51:58 PM
^ I really hope that happens. And I hope the new designs incorporate some small splashes of red, like what is on the garage. With the addition of Nucleus, 515, Leader Building apartments, and Garfield Building Apartments (and most likely eventually the May Co. apartments), I think there could be enough of a population there to revive the retail spaces in the Arcade.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on March 20, 2015, 03:00:36 PM
I had a meeting with a few folks that are working with Stark on 515 plans.  I think there is more to that sign in the window.  The intent of the meeting was not to discuss the 515 deal, nor was I in the place to ask specifics.  If I learn more, I will pass it along.  All they said was they are working on this which invloves adding multiple stories to the garage.

Awesome.  Are we talking architects? Engineers? Financiers?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 20, 2015, 06:56:10 PM
I love how UrbanOhio has totally scooped all other media in Cleveland on this pretty important angle.

Adding a building to the top of the 515 Euclid garage means adding only those incremental costs that are incurred by and financed by adding the residential component. All of the legal, environmental, site prep, utilities and foundation infrastructure are already paid for. It's a bargain way for Stark to enter the market with a high-rise residential tower. 515 Euclid is what Stark plans to build on Prospect, except here, the pedestal is already done. Best of all, it's paid for by the prior owner taking a huge loss and written it off. As far as I know, it's free and clear after it was sold to Harbor Group who got 515 Euclid for a steal.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on March 20, 2015, 07:38:27 PM
Can additional stories of parking be added to the structure?  I'd presume so.  I'm curious if more stories would be tacked on before the residential component.  Also, I'm curious if it is somehow tied to having some portion ready in time for the RNC.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 22, 2015, 04:25:47 PM
Some background on Harbor Group's purchase of 515 Euclid in 2011...

http://www.cpexecutive.com/cities/cleveland/harbor-group-lists-former-bp-tower-invests-in-cleveland-real-estate/1004053473.html

If Stark has a deal with Harbor Group to add a roughly 14-story residential tower above the garage, I doubt Stark would agree to numbers for which he couldn't get financing.

EDIT: the article says: Hilco Real Estate of Northbrook, Ill., was advertising the property with air rights to build a 14-story tower, originally envisioned as a condominium building, on top of the garage.

Hilco Real Estate's website no longer has 515 Euclid's air rights listed on its website.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 24, 2015, 01:32:34 PM
Reminder that Stark goes before BZA this Monday for variance(s) to build nuCLEus between Prospect and Huron
http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2015/crr03-30-2015.pdf

I wonder if Stark needs anything other than a building permit to put a residential tower atop 515 Euclid? I would think all of the city design approvals were secured a decade ago for 515 Euclid, including for the tower. I can't prove that as I can't find any records to verify that. But if I was the parking garage developer and I wanted the tower as a Phase Two or to market the air rights, I would have taken care of the approvals for the tower at the same time as the garage.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CLE618 on March 24, 2015, 01:47:10 PM
Reminder that Stark goes before BZA this Monday for variance(s) to build nuCLEus between Prospect and Huron
http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2015/crr03-30-2015.pdf

I wonder if Stark needs anything other than a building permit to put a residential tower atop 515 Euclid? I would think all of the city design approvals were secured a decade ago for 515 Euclid, including for the tower. I can't prove that as I can't find any records to verify that. But if I was the parking garage developer and I wanted the tower as a Phase Two or to market the air rights, I would have taken care of the approvals for the tower at the same time as the garage.

::drools::  :-)
Please keep this good news coming.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: musky on March 24, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
Some cities have provisions in their code giving expiration dates for permits issued - typically one year. However, variance, conditional uses and what not from P&Z tend to stick with the land indefinitely. So, this should not be a problem as long as the approved use was being pursued on any upcoming project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: NCJ on March 24, 2015, 03:38:20 PM
This has probably been talked about before, but I'm pretty new to this forum, so please don't chew me out if I'm wrong or this has been discussed. Has anyone looked at this picture of all the places Stark plans on turning into parking? It appears as if he's wanting to turn the back half of the May Company building into a garage along with several other buildings, including one on the end of E. 4th... On the pic, the building on E. 4th just says valet parking; no mention of a garage. Could we lose this building to another empty parking lot? Also, how would he be able to get away with turning the May Company building into a parking garage? Doesn't that building have some type of historic status?

I think nuCLEus is a fantastic idea, but is it going to end up with nothing but parking lots and garages surrounding it?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 24, 2015, 03:59:20 PM
Hi NCJ and welcome to the forum!

I think what Stark is saying is that parking exists, or is planned to exist at the above-identified locations.

You will find that recent proposals to renovate the May Company include adding parking even as the rest of the huge building would be residential:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,16941.0.html

Also, that location on East Fourth Street does have valet parking. There is a valet parking station behind Flannery's and the cars are parked inside a mid-block building next to May Co.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on March 24, 2015, 05:53:02 PM
Zoning variances, at least for residential, expire after 6 months if they are not acted upon with a building permit.  6 month extensions to the original 6 months can be granted administratively, but I'm not sure if they can be extended past that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 24, 2015, 10:14:47 PM
Zoning variances, at least for residential, expire after 6 months if they are not acted upon with a building permit.  6 month extensions to the original 6 months can be granted administratively, but I'm not sure if they can be extended past that.

Do you think a zoning variance was even necessary for the original design of the garage + tower? I would think a general building plan for garage + tower was approved by CPC a decade ago and should still be in force. If a variance is needed to add the tower, how difficult would that be for Stark to get one? And even if nothing more than a building permit was needed to add the tower, I suspect Stark & Co. would want to make a presentation to the CPC as a courtesy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 26, 2015, 05:57:09 PM
FYI...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBDaEJaXEAAF6hZ.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: musky on March 26, 2015, 06:07:56 PM
First I was like
(http://i.giphy.com/wAjfQ9MLUfFjq.gif)



And then I was like
(http://i.giphy.com/ygvLVHi6UeN7W.gif)


And now I'm like
(http://i.giphy.com/9TVFhxEHLkzRK.gif)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 26, 2015, 06:12:33 PM
Why, because the pedestrian in my photo was walking in downtown Cleveland without wearing a coat?? ;)

Considering how many wet their pants when this garage was being built, I figured a tower being added to it would generate at least as much buzz.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on March 26, 2015, 06:25:39 PM
^Yes, I'm excited and, no, unlike like the bad old days when the City tore down whole blocks of buildings with plans to build that never materialized (Public Square, the hole), Cleveland's obviously on a "can do" roll... Still I'd like to see a little more than just a Stark sign and a desire to move forward before I go all in with the 515 residential tower ... hey wait a minute, this is the nuCLEus thread.     :-o
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 26, 2015, 08:59:22 PM
Stark is pursuing the tower addition as part of nuCLEus. He doesn't think so much in terms as addresses for his developments. He thinks in terms of a multi-block vision even if the development components don't physically touch each other. But they benefit each other nonetheless.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on March 26, 2015, 09:12:17 PM
Makes me wonder if the 515 tower will therefore have a similar design as the other NuCLEus buildings, or follow the design of the parking garage.

With that in mind, how tall of a tower could the parking garage theoretically support? Or is it limited to around 20 stories as the massings suggest?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Paul in Cleveland on March 27, 2015, 10:36:03 AM
Maybe I'm alone in this, but the 515 stuff makes me nervous. I think that old original rendering of the tower is ugly, and my worst fears (born and raised in CLE, what can I say) are that that thing gets built and nuCLEus gets scrapped down the road. It's be great if he builds both (and has a newer, better vision for the 515 tower), but personally, I'd like for the full focus to be on nuCLEus, which would be such a game changer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on March 27, 2015, 10:40:15 AM
Maybe I'm alone in this, but the 515 stuff makes me nervous. I think that old original rendering of the tower is ugly, and my worst fears (born and raised in CLE, what can I say) are that that thing gets built and nuCLEus gets scrapped down the road. It's be great if he builds both (and has a newer, better vision for the 515 tower), but personally, I'd like for the full focus to be on nuCLEus, which would be such a game changer.

I doubt Bobby Stark is going to dust off the architectural plans from 2005 for whatever he does there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Confiteordeo on March 27, 2015, 10:52:19 AM
Maybe I'm alone in this, but the 515 stuff makes me nervous. I think that old original rendering of the tower is ugly, and my worst fears (born and raised in CLE, what can I say) are that that thing gets built and nuCLEus gets scrapped down the road. It's be great if he builds both (and has a newer, better vision for the 515 tower), but personally, I'd like for the full focus to be on nuCLEus, which would be such a game changer.


I understand the fears, but even if that happens, I still think it would be a net plus for the city.  The parking lots remain a blank canvas for future development, and we still get a tower on 515 with hundreds of new residents.

That said, I of course hope that we get both ;-)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Loretto on March 27, 2015, 10:57:52 AM
If NuCLEus fails to materialize I don't believe it will be the result of a lack of residential demand. It will be because they cannot get the deals they want from retailers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 27, 2015, 11:13:17 AM
What Stark is trying to do between Prospect and Huron hasn't been done downtown since before the recession -- construct a new-build mostly residential tower. The Avenue District was the most recent example. And the scale of this project is far larger than the Avenue District.

So I would expect lenders to be cautious. How do you address lender concerns? By developing the project incrementally and starting with the lowest-hanging fruit. Stark can renovate the Herold Building with residential, but that doesn't really prove anything nor does it push the envelope. A new-build, low-risk residential tower would push the envelope and prove whether downtown can support it. How do you reduce the risk? By building the tower in a location that already has most of the site prep work already completed and waiting to be finished.

That's 515 Euclid. Not only is it the only place where a residential tower can be built so inexpensively downtown, but it is a block away from nuCLEus' bullseye. BTW, Pinnacle condos on Lakeside is a comparable precedent, as it was built on top of a warehouse-turned-parking structure. But that in a different era of residential financing, and it was a condo development where pre-sales could demonstrate to lenders that the project would succeed. I have to think Stark is going after rental apartments, but I could be wrong. Either way, I expect him to make an announcement soon of his intentions with this building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sky on March 27, 2015, 12:58:11 PM
Pietro lied.  They set the price high to make as much money as possible.  This LA company does not care about anything else.  But I am super excited to see what Bob Stark can do here!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on March 27, 2015, 01:19:58 PM
What Stark is trying to do between Prospect and Huron hasn't been done downtown since before the recession -- construct a new-build mostly residential tower. The Avenue District was the most recent example. And the scale of this project is far larger than the Avenue District.

So I would expect lenders to be cautious. How do you address lender concerns? By developing the project incrementally and starting with the lowest-hanging fruit. Stark can renovate the Herold Building with residential, but that doesn't really prove anything nor does it push the envelope. A new-build, low-risk residential tower would push the envelope and prove whether downtown can support it. How do you reduce the risk? By building the tower in a location that already has most of the site prep work already completed and waiting to be finished.

That's 515 Euclid. Not only is it the only place where a residential tower can be built so inexpensively downtown, but it is a block away from nuCLEus' bullseye. BTW, Pinnacle condos on Lakeside is a comparable precedent, as it was built on top of a warehouse-turned-parking structure. But that in a different era of residential financing, and it was a condo development where pre-sales could demonstrate to lenders that the project would succeed. I have to think Stark is going after rental apartments, but I could be wrong. Either way, I expect him to make an announcement soon of his intentions with this building.
I was about to ask do you think stark would be willing to include some condo's, maybe on the top floor? This way he could have those pre-sales to maybe entice lenders...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on March 27, 2015, 01:54:53 PM
What Stark is trying to do between Prospect and Huron hasn't been done downtown since before the recession -- construct a new-build mostly residential tower. The Avenue District was the most recent example. And the scale of this project is far larger than the Avenue District.

So I would expect lenders to be cautious. How do you address lender concerns? By developing the project incrementally and starting with the lowest-hanging fruit. Stark can renovate the Herold Building with residential, but that doesn't really prove anything nor does it push the envelope. A new-build, low-risk residential tower would push the envelope and prove whether downtown can support it. How do you reduce the risk? By building the tower in a location that already has most of the site prep work already completed and waiting to be finished.

That's 515 Euclid. Not only is it the only place where a residential tower can be built so inexpensively downtown, but it is a block away from nuCLEus' bullseye. BTW, Pinnacle condos on Lakeside is a comparable precedent, as it was built on top of a warehouse-turned-parking structure. But that in a different era of residential financing, and it was a condo development where pre-sales could demonstrate to lenders that the project would succeed. I have to think Stark is going after rental apartments, but I could be wrong. Either way, I expect him to make an announcement soon of his intentions with this building.
I was about to ask do you think stark would be willing to include some condo's, maybe on the top floor? This way he could have those pre-sales to maybe entice lenders...
I'd be curious to see how condos would do now. I keep reading articles about how the downtown area doesn't have condos like the inner ring suburbs do for the empty-nesters. It's like someone just needs to take the first plunge and prove if it's feasible or not, but nobody wants to stick their neck out.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on March 27, 2015, 02:10:57 PM
What Stark is trying to do between Prospect and Huron hasn't been done downtown since before the recession -- construct a new-build mostly residential tower. The Avenue District was the most recent example. And the scale of this project is far larger than the Avenue District.

So I would expect lenders to be cautious. How do you address lender concerns? By developing the project incrementally and starting with the lowest-hanging fruit. Stark can renovate the Herold Building with residential, but that doesn't really prove anything nor does it push the envelope. A new-build, low-risk residential tower would push the envelope and prove whether downtown can support it. How do you reduce the risk? By building the tower in a location that already has most of the site prep work already completed and waiting to be finished.

That's 515 Euclid. Not only is it the only place where a residential tower can be built so inexpensively downtown, but it is a block away from nuCLEus' bullseye. BTW, Pinnacle condos on Lakeside is a comparable precedent, as it was built on top of a warehouse-turned-parking structure. But that in a different era of residential financing, and it was a condo development where pre-sales could demonstrate to lenders that the project would succeed. I have to think Stark is going after rental apartments, but I could be wrong. Either way, I expect him to make an announcement soon of his intentions with this building.
I was about to ask do you think stark would be willing to include some condo's, maybe on the top floor? This way he could have those pre-sales to maybe entice lenders...
I'd be curious to see how condos would do now. I keep reading articles about how the downtown area doesn't have condos like the inner ring suburbs do for the empty-nesters. It's like someone just needs to take the first plunge and prove if it's feasible or not, but nobody wants to stick their neck out.
Sure, you are right, but at the same time, I don't think anyone is going to push 100+ units right out of the gate.

As I have said before, I really don't think Stark is going to be too vocal about 515 as an effort to keep the folks that are wating for Nucleus to come online to keep waiting for that.  I dont think he wants to rob from himself.  I do agree with KJP in that 515 is a test run for lenders.  He is going to show them successful preleasing for a development that can go much sooner then Nucleus, without much advertising. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on March 27, 2015, 05:07:23 PM
515 is about as close to a 'lock' as you could get for new residential construction success downtown. it would be kinda like a nouveau reserve square. maybe it could be mixed condo and rental. regardless, it's good idea to develop it as far as demonstrating the feasibility of nucleus and other new build stuff for sure. i never thought of the develoment of 515 as taking away from nucleus, feb or anything else, not sure with it being the same developer though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on March 27, 2015, 05:24:20 PM
It's like someone just needs to take the first plunge and prove if it's feasible or not, but nobody wants to stick their neck out.

Sadly, it's more like someone (Zaremba at Avenue District) did take the firs plunge, and lost his shirt. And his building. I'm hopeful the condo market will come back, but I'm guessing we're going to see some more conversions or low rise/townhouse projects work before anyone is able to take the plunge on high rise condos again.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on March 27, 2015, 05:38:30 PM
oh yeah i forgot about the avenue struggles. that was a different era and the area is not nearly as as ideal as 515. i dont think anyone ever expected that the avenue would be a great success, or go under. it was definately a grand, overreaching experiment and ahead of its time. in the here and now 515 is much more likely to be successful no matter who finally develops it. the only way to know for sure is take it on and put the feelers out for a few floors of condo presales. so we'll see.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TMH on March 27, 2015, 05:59:13 PM
Don't forget there is the Grand Arcade (with 100+ units), Pinnacle (New construction), the Coat Factory, Water Street, and several condos on West 9th, all in the Warehouse District. The Point in Gateway and The Park on Public Square are also condos. There is a demand.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: eurokie on March 28, 2015, 10:00:42 AM
First of all, I will say that I am a big believer in Stark and think that him being the developer lends an incredible amount of not only credibility but also respect to the project. I know he'll do it right, and get the right players involved and rowing in the same direction.

That said, just to recap since there seems to have been a lot of news... Stark has only raised $9.5MM in equity according to a recent SEC filing, when he will need an amount around 20% of the project's entire cost. He can also count the TIF and tax abatement directly into his pro forma... I am going to guess that the SEC filing does not include Stark's own equity contribution, and also that J-Dek wouldn't really be in on this deal unless they had money or knew of money.

All that said, we are now talking about adding a residential tower at 515 Euclid, while nothing on the Prospect-Huron site has been reduced in scope. So the project has grown?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 28, 2015, 11:47:37 AM
First of all, I will say that I am a big believer in Stark and think that him being the developer lends an incredible amount of not only credibility but also respect to the project. I know he'll do it right, and get the right players involved and rowing in the same direction.

That said, just to recap since there seems to have been a lot of news... Stark has only raised $9.5MM in equity according to a recent SEC filing, when he will need an amount around 20% of the project's entire cost. He can also count the TIF and tax abatement directly into his pro forma... I am going to guess that the SEC filing does not include Stark's own equity contribution, and also that J-Dek wouldn't really be in on this deal unless they had money or knew of money.

All that said, we are now talking about adding a residential tower at 515 Euclid, while nothing on the Prospect-Huron site has been reduced in scope. So the project has grown?

The project hasn't grown as the 515 tower appeared in at least one of his early massings and the two corporations he formed relating to 515 Euclid were incorporated at about the same time as the corporations relating to the site at/near/between Huron, Prospect and East 4th.

However, we were all drawn to the latter address by the sheer scale of that component, sort of a magician's misdirection -- be it intended or not.

My guess is that Stark's first phase (or perhaps phases 1a and 1b) of nuCLEus will consist of the following:

> Demolition of the parking deck on Huron and the "Mr. Albert's building" on Prospect
> Renovation of the Herold Building on Prospect and development of the vacant lot at Prospect/East 4th
> Laneway conversion of East 4th between Huron & Prospect, plus additional streetscaping
> Construction of the multi-level parking pad, laneways and ground-floor retail between Prospect and Huron
> Construction of a residential tower atop 515 Euclid

Needless to say, that's still a significant addition to Cleveland and would change downtown quite dramatically. What I know of Stark, he will not talk about these as phases or sequences. He thinks holistically so when someone suggests phasing to respond to market conditions and lender interest, he almost takes that as a personal offense. But few things get built when you want them to, and Stark is well aware of that.

Stark has invested $26 million to buy the property for this site (and the Warehouse District lot too, BTW!) but let's assume Stark has only 20 percent equity in that. He also has $3 million from the county in the form of a loan, which I seem to recall is being financed by casino revenues. And eurokie noted the TIF and residential tax abatement, which could comprise a significant portion of the financing. But the $9.5 million, a 20 percent debt-to-equity ratio, means the base amount of what they could develop right now would have a value of about $47 million. That actual amount is much more with the TIF and tax abatement, so we're likely looking at all of the above elements, less the tower atop 515 Euclid, as what Stark can afford. And if he's putting his own personal equity into 515 Euclid, then that can be part of this initial phase as well.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: eurokie on March 28, 2015, 12:44:26 PM
First of all, I will say that I am a big believer in Stark and think that him being the developer lends an incredible amount of not only credibility but also respect to the project. I know he'll do it right, and get the right players involved and rowing in the same direction.

That said, just to recap since there seems to have been a lot of news... Stark has only raised $9.5MM in equity according to a recent SEC filing, when he will need an amount around 20% of the project's entire cost. He can also count the TIF and tax abatement directly into his pro forma... I am going to guess that the SEC filing does not include Stark's own equity contribution, and also that J-Dek wouldn't really be in on this deal unless they had money or knew of money.

All that said, we are now talking about adding a residential tower at 515 Euclid, while nothing on the Prospect-Huron site has been reduced in scope. So the project has grown?

The project hasn't grown as the 515 tower appeared in at least one of his early massings and the two corporations he formed relating to 515 Euclid were incorporated at about the same time as the corporations relating to the site at/near/between Huron, Prospect and East 4th.

However, we were all drawn to the latter address by the sheer scale of that component, sort of a magician's misdirection -- be it intended or not.

My guess is that Stark's first phase (or perhaps phases 1a and 1b) of nuCLEus will consist of the following:

> Demolition of the parking deck on Huron and the "Mr. Albert's building" on Prospect
> Renovation of the Herold Building on Prospect and development of the vacant lot at Prospect/East 4th
> Laneway conversion of East 4th between Huron & Prospect, plus additional streetscaping
> Construction of the multi-level parking pad, laneways and ground-floor retail between Prospect and Huron
> Construction of a residential tower atop 515 Euclid

Needless to say, that's still a significant addition to Cleveland and would change downtown quite dramatically. What I know of Stark, he will not talk about these as phases or sequences. He thinks holistically so when someone suggests phasing to respond to market conditions and lender interest, he almost takes that as a personal offense. But few things get built when you want them to, and Stark is well aware of that.

Stark has invested $26 million to buy the property for this site (and the Warehouse District lot too, BTW!) but let's assume Stark has only 20 percent equity in that. He also has $3 million from the county in the form of a loan, which I seem to recall is being financed by casino revenues. And eurokie noted the TIF and residential tax abatement, which could comprise a significant portion of the financing. But the $9.5 million, a 20 percent debt-to-equity ratio, means the base amount of what they could develop right now would have a value of about $47 million. That actual amount is much more with the TIF and tax abatement, so we're likely looking at all of the above elements, less the tower atop 515 Euclid, as what Stark can afford. And if he's putting his own personal equity into 515 Euclid, then that can be part of this initial phase as well.

Great update/summary of where this project stands now.

I suppose it's really just semantics as to whether the scope has increased, or gets decreased in the future, and how the tower really relates. I am sure if all is built as planned, the narrative will be that East 4th was the first phase of his & Maron's nuCLEus project, for a little revisionist bravado.

I doubt he's finished raising raising equity for the first phase, but the DTE ratio simulation is helpful. On top of having raised the ballpark of $47 million so far, he has A) a very high market value which will enable him to get more financing; and B) generous subsidy from the city that can close the gap that will remain. I'd imagine that the tax abatement could be worth $10-20 million, and the TIF is supposed to bring around $60 million.

For a $350M development, he will need $70 million of equity when finished. However, if he takes $80 million off the top from the subsidy, he then only needs around $55 million in equity.

I am pretty sure that TIF, depending on how it is structured, can count as an equity contribution.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on March 28, 2015, 02:21:21 PM
Unfortunately, this is still being marketed with that awful rendering developed by the previous property owner....
http://crsc.reapplications.com/asp/user/website/PropertyProfile.asp?TransID=29514&ParentID=32584

And if the closest comparison to putting a residential tower atop 515 Euclid is Pinnacle (80 residential units, 50 for-sale/30 rental, in a 14-story building atop a 3-story parking garage in 2005), then we can guesstimate what a 515 Euclid tower might be like. I seem to recall Pinnacle cost about $30 million to build a decade ago (or $36 million today), which is dirt cheap for a 14-story tower. The reason why it was so cheap was because it was built atop an existing structure, which is what the 10-story 515 Euclid offers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Barneyboy on March 28, 2015, 04:10:35 PM
When considering the old block of buildings on Prospect, I'd like to see what I've seen done  in other cities as in an historic facade re-creation. Considering the fortuitous fact that this historic block still stands and is significant in the history of rock and roll as explained by Tom Yablonsky, executive director of History Gateway Neighborhood Development Corp. and vice president of the Downtown Cleveland Alliance nonprofit, the building is architecturally and socially significant, because 300 Prospect was an early home of famed music store owner Leo Mintz's Record Rendezvous.

According to “The Encyclopedia of Cleveland History,” the store was a sponsor of the late radio disc jockey Alan Freed, who is credited with coining the phrase “rock and roll” for the music genre that emerged from the rhythm and blues popular in the black community.

Look at Detroit's Motown or Beale Street in Memphis and you'll see that city's earnest attempt at capitalizing on its musical heritage, which in Cleveland's case is very limited. To not faithfully acknowledge this location would be a missed opportunity. Not to mention that this could be a bright, snazzy look for the street, and IMHO rather cool.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MuRrAy HiLL on March 28, 2015, 07:42:23 PM
^ fantastic idea!  Possibly even some type of collaboration as a RRHOF annex/branch.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on March 29, 2015, 10:16:17 PM
^ oh great idea - here it is:

(http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o725/NYCnMore/random2/F51D230F-2177-401C-8B04-33F17DC24F81_zpswecdxewg.png) (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/NYCnMore/media/random2/F51D230F-2177-401C-8B04-33F17DC24F81_zpswecdxewg.png.html)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 02, 2015, 01:08:57 AM
The design work for the tower was more detailed than I had imagined -- which I had incorrectly assumed was only a conceptual plan:


515 Garage

515 Garage represents six years of continuous design and evaluation.  The primary goal was to provide new retail and parking facilities on Euclid Avenue, with an opportunity to build luxury apartments above.

It was determined that concrete would be used for retail floors and steel frame incorporated for residential units. Soil analysis dictated the maximum of 24 stories using a concrete mat foundation.

During the four year period an unbelievable amount of studies were prepared looking at parking, housing and retail development.  Although the apartments were not built plans for every level and unit were developed.

SOURCE: http://www.studiorfa.com/#/515garage/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on April 02, 2015, 06:40:13 AM
Meanwhile, Stark has secured a tenant for a portion of the office component:


nuCLEus project nabs Benesch law firm as first tenant

By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer
on April 02, 2015 at 5:00 AM, updated April 02, 2015 at 6:26 AM


"CLEVELAND, Ohio - A 77-year-old law firm expects to move its offices to the proposed nuCLEus project, in a sign of early leasing momentum for the high-profile, high-reaching development.

Leaders at the Benesch firm have reached an agreement with developer Stark Enterprises to occupy roughly 66,500 square feet at a new office building planned north of Quicken Loans Arena. Those offices will be part of a $430 million development that could include a 54-story tower, largely filled with apartments; a bridge-like hotel; stores; restaurants; parking garages; and outdoor spaces.
"

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/04/nucleus_project_nabs_benesch_l.html#incart_river (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/04/nucleus_project_nabs_benesch_l.html#incart_river)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 02, 2015, 09:19:55 AM
Ironically, that's the firm Stark hired to represent it in delivering nuCLEus.

EDIT: Interesting side comments MJM included in her article about the office market.... I'll post those paragraphs in the Cleveland office news thread.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BelievelandD1 on April 02, 2015, 09:25:57 AM
LOL, I love the updated renderings with the half full baseball stadium.  Hilarious. 

I like the signage Benesch has on that building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: flee2thecleve14 on April 02, 2015, 09:28:12 AM
Many interesting tidbits in the article, and I'm always impressed by how Michelle gets the scoop on these stories before others.

Hopefully, the new construction or backfill of 200 PS space can secure new tenants from outside the CBD. While Benesch is downsizing space by 50 percent, 120k sf seems like a lot of space for a law firm with just 220 people. Perhaps they used to be larger?

Also interesting how this project beat Flats East Bank's second proposed office tower to gaining tenants. NuCLEus seems like a far more desirable and central location, and Benesch agreed according to the article.

Does anyone think or speculate that this project could seek to have some of the retail/parking garage portion open by the 2016 RNC with the rest of the site under construction for a 2018 completion date?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BelievelandD1 on April 02, 2015, 09:35:00 AM
Many interesting tidbits in the article, and I'm always impressed by how Michelle gets the scoop on these stories before others.

Hopefully, the new construction or backfill of 200 PS space can secure new tenants from outside the CBD. While Benesch is downsizing space by 50 percent, 120k sf seems like a lot of space for a law firm with just 220 people. Perhaps they used to be larger?

Also interesting how this project beat Flats East Bank's second proposed office tower to gaining tenants. NuCLEus seems like a far more desirable and central location, and Benesch agreed according to the article.

Does anyone think or speculate that this project could seek to have some of the retail/parking garage portion open by the 2016 RNC with the rest of the site under construction for a 2018 completion date?

I doubt Benesech downsized?? they are a giant.  However, seeing the trends in office space, it seems companies are trying to be more efficient with space and there are new models for office space design being implemented across the country.  I know my company has changed their office space in two of our offices to a more space efficient design

Looking at the renderings, it seem Benesch shoots two bird with one stone.  Office space and marketing.  They essentially have a billboard at Progressive field without having to pay the indians
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Confiteordeo on April 02, 2015, 09:38:16 AM
Does anyone think or speculate that this project could seek to have some of the retail/parking garage portion open by the 2016 RNC with the rest of the site under construction for a 2018 completion date?

I think this has actually been explicitly stated in a couple of articles (at least the first part.)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 3231 on April 02, 2015, 09:53:00 AM
So if they stay at 200,000 sf, the office portion of the project is now 33% leased. That's a nice start.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 02, 2015, 09:58:03 AM
So if they stay at 200,000 sf, the office portion of the project is now 33% leased. That's a nice start.

And it sounds like they're getting enough interest to increase the office component by 100,000 sf. If they nail down another tenant soon, especially from outside the CBD, that will make easier for them to start to get some retail tenants signed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MidwestChamp on April 02, 2015, 10:06:16 AM
I love the pace at which this seems to all be coming together.  So often in the past it seems like a project this size takes a decade before anything substantial happens.  Loving this momentum!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on April 02, 2015, 10:07:43 AM
If the hotel portion raises up to adjust for 100,000 square feet more office space, does this mean the rest of the tower above does as well?

I want more height. I'm greedy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jborger on April 02, 2015, 10:24:59 AM
From the article: "Stark might expand the project, now 200,000 square feet on eight floors above a parking garage, by another 100,000 square feet, based on interest from potential tenants. If that happens, a skywalk-like hotel designed to rest atop the office building and to bisect the apartment tower would climb higher into the air."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on April 02, 2015, 10:48:48 AM
 Other rumored office projects also were too geographically distant, or too nebulous, or aimed at larger companies.


Could one of those rumored office projects be Jacob's PS property?  Hmmmmm.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 02, 2015, 10:58:19 AM
Other rumored office projects also were too geographically distant, or too nebulous, or aimed at larger companies.


Could one of those rumored office projects be Jacob's PS property?  Hmmmmm.

Any reads my wistful posts about the Jacobs lot knows that was where my head went when reading that! And while I'm sure the Jacobs Group may be aiming that site at larger companies, it doesn't say they've got any nibbles on the line.

Still, it's good to see nuCLEus has a major anchor tenant already in pocket. That will win him a lot of credibility with lenders.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: tradition7 on April 02, 2015, 01:19:46 PM
If the hotel portion raises up to adjust for 100,000 square feet more office space, does this mean the rest of the tower above does as well?

I want more height. I'm greedy.

I also enjoy height but I'd prefer they stay at the current height so there is more demand sooner for another tower on a surface lot. I too am greedy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on April 02, 2015, 01:25:59 PM
Hmm interesting retort. Because I want that too.

How about we just build multiple massive towers?

I'm curious if a design for 515 would be structurally the same as the finished design yet with cosmetic changes, even further reducing the development costs of that project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on April 03, 2015, 12:02:07 AM
I'd like to say that I never would have expected to hear this type of stuff happening in Cleveland, a city that hadn't had a skyscraper in 14-15 years all of a sudden has one that may need to become larger because of interest from tenants? YES PLEASE!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 04, 2015, 01:45:13 AM
First of all, I will say that I am a big believer in Stark and think that him being the developer lends an incredible amount of not only credibility but also respect to the project. I know he'll do it right, and get the right players involved and rowing in the same direction.

That said, just to recap since there seems to have been a lot of news... Stark has only raised $9.5MM in equity according to a recent SEC filing, when he will need an amount around 20% of the project's entire cost. He can also count the TIF and tax abatement directly into his pro forma... I am going to guess that the SEC filing does not include Stark's own equity contribution, and also that J-Dek wouldn't really be in on this deal unless they had money or knew of money.

All that said, we are now talking about adding a residential tower at 515 Euclid, while nothing on the Prospect-Huron site has been reduced in scope. So the project has grown?

The project hasn't grown as the 515 tower appeared in at least one of his early massings and the two corporations he formed relating to 515 Euclid were incorporated at about the same time as the corporations relating to the site at/near/between Huron, Prospect and East 4th.

However, we were all drawn to the latter address by the sheer scale of that component, sort of a magician's misdirection -- be it intended or not.

My guess is that Stark's first phase (or perhaps phases 1a and 1b) of nuCLEus will consist of the following:

> Demolition of the parking deck on Huron and the "Mr. Albert's building" on Prospect
> Renovation of the Herold Building on Prospect and development of the vacant lot at Prospect/East 4th
> Laneway conversion of East 4th between Huron & Prospect, plus additional streetscaping
> Construction of the multi-level parking pad, laneways and ground-floor retail between Prospect and Huron
> Construction of a residential tower atop 515 Euclid

Needless to say, that's still a significant addition to Cleveland and would change downtown quite dramatically. What I know of Stark, he will not talk about these as phases or sequences. He thinks holistically so when someone suggests phasing to respond to market conditions and lender interest, he almost takes that as a personal offense. But few things get built when you want them to, and Stark is well aware of that.

Stark has invested $26 million to buy the property for this site (and the Warehouse District lot too, BTW!) but let's assume Stark has only 20 percent equity in that. He also has $3 million from the county in the form of a loan, which I seem to recall is being financed by casino revenues. And eurokie noted the TIF and residential tax abatement, which could comprise a significant portion of the financing. But the $9.5 million, a 20 percent debt-to-equity ratio, means the base amount of what they could develop right now would have a value of about $47 million. That actual amount is much more with the TIF and tax abatement, so we're likely looking at all of the above elements, less the tower atop 515 Euclid, as what Stark can afford. And if he's putting his own personal equity into 515 Euclid, then that can be part of this initial phase as well.

Great update/summary of where this project stands now.

I suppose it's really just semantics as to whether the scope has increased, or gets decreased in the future, and how the tower really relates. I am sure if all is built as planned, the narrative will be that East 4th was the first phase of his & Maron's nuCLEus project, for a little revisionist bravado.

I doubt he's finished raising raising equity for the first phase, but the DTE ratio simulation is helpful. On top of having raised the ballpark of $47 million so far, he has A) a very high market value which will enable him to get more financing; and B) generous subsidy from the city that can close the gap that will remain. I'd imagine that the tax abatement could be worth $10-20 million, and the TIF is supposed to bring around $60 million.

For a $350M development, he will need $70 million of equity when finished. However, if he takes $80 million off the top from the subsidy, he then only needs around $55 million in equity.

I am pretty sure that TIF, depending on how it is structured, can count as an equity contribution.

For comparison, here's some debt-to-equity ratios and how subsidies/infrastructure funding have rounded out the financing for a couple of recent projects in the news....

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/03/detroit_shoreway_apartments_in.html

INTESA:
The port will issue up to $60 million in bonds for construction. Related Fund Management LLC, a new player in Northeast Ohio commercial real estate, is in line to buy the bonds. The company is part of New York-based Related Cos., founded by Stephen Ross, a longtime real estate investor and the owner of the Miami Dolphins.

Other Intesa financing includes an estimated $5.5 million in public infrastructure funding and $8.4 million in equity from the developers and their partners, according to documents distributed at the port board meeting.
____________

BREAKWATER BLUFFS:
The port will issue up to $40 million in taxable bonds for the project. KeyBank expects to buy most of the bonds. Other project financing includes $5.4 million in developer equity and a $12 million loan arranged by the Cleveland International Fund, which amasses money from foreign investors seeking U.S. residency through an increasingly popular federal visa program.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: eurokie on April 05, 2015, 02:14:07 PM
I'd like to say that I never would have expected to hear this type of stuff happening in Cleveland, a city that hadn't had a skyscraper in 14-15 years all of a sudden has one that may need to become larger because of interest from tenants? YES PLEASE!

EY and the Hilton definitely count, but they just aren't architectural marvels like this. Cleveland has such a huge stock of 300-400 footers that you don't even notice all of the new ones going up. One of the many ways that our beloved Land is far more urban than even we realize...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on April 15, 2015, 12:59:38 PM
^ oh great idea - here it is:

(http://i1340.photobucket.com/albums/o725/NYCnMore/random2/F51D230F-2177-401C-8B04-33F17DC24F81_zpswecdxewg.png) (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/NYCnMore/media/random2/F51D230F-2177-401C-8B04-33F17DC24F81_zpswecdxewg.png.html)

It's empty now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mu2010 on April 15, 2015, 01:57:12 PM
I'd like to say that I never would have expected to hear this type of stuff happening in Cleveland, a city that hadn't had a skyscraper in 14-15 years all of a sudden has one that may need to become larger because of interest from tenants? YES PLEASE!

EY and the Hilton definitely count, but they just aren't architectural marvels like this. Cleveland has such a huge stock of 300-400 footers that you don't even notice all of the new ones going up. One of the many ways that our beloved Land is far more urban than even we realize...

I'm a little skeptical of big skyscrapers at this stage in the game, after all the construction of the overly-subsidized Key and BP Towers screwed up the downtown office market for a long time. I'd rather have 10 shorter buildings with street level retail than one giant self-contained colossus with an attached parking deck. Plus I think shorter, denser skylines beat a few tall buildings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on April 15, 2015, 02:19:46 PM
^I think the mixed use nature of this building/development being hotel, office and residents along with restaurants and retail make this much different than BP or Key.  They were simply large office structures, at a time when strictly modern office space was needed, to cram companies into.  This is redevelopment, not simply building an office building.  But yes, your point is valid in that we crammed 9-5 activity around PS versus 24/7 activity.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 15, 2015, 08:14:30 PM

I'm a little skeptical of big skyscrapers at this stage in the game, after all the construction of the overly-subsidized Key and BP Towers screwed up the downtown office market for a long time. I'd rather have 10 shorter buildings with street level retail than one giant self-contained colossus with an attached parking deck. Plus I think shorter, denser skylines beat a few tall buildings.

Stark paid a lot of money for those parking lots, thus it will take a lot of revenue from whatever is developed there to earn a reasonable return on that investment. Since Cleveland doesn't have high rents, he's going to have to generate that revenue from putting more revenue sources on that land. And that means going vertical.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on April 16, 2015, 12:09:04 AM
Stark paid a lot of money for those parking lots, thus it will take a lot of revenue from whatever is developed there to earn a reasonable return on that investment. Since Cleveland doesn't have high rents, he's going to have to generate that revenue from putting more revenue sources on that land. And that means going vertical.

Or it means relying more heavily on parking. For example, designating 1/3 of the square footage of the site plan to parking.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 16, 2015, 11:55:11 AM
Stark paid a lot of money for those parking lots, thus it will take a lot of revenue from whatever is developed there to earn a reasonable return on that investment. Since Cleveland doesn't have high rents, he's going to have to generate that revenue from putting more revenue sources on that land. And that means going vertical.

Or it means relying more heavily on parking. For example, designating 1/3 of the square footage of the site plan to parking.

That's because the transit service to/from the suburbs is so low-capacity and limited that it doesn't soak up the parking demand. One bus carries only 40 people. One suburban commuter train carries 400 people. One parking space is 300 square feet. So one bus eats up 12,000 sf of parking demand. A typical GCRTA service to a suburban park-n-ride offers 10 buses per direction. GCRTA has five park-n-ride routes which soak up about or 600,000 sf of parking demand. Sounds impressive, but's not that big. Consider that 60-80 percent of the roughly 100,000 downtown commuters drive to work/school. At 60 percent, that's 18 million square feet. At 80 percent, it's 24 million square feet.

If you instead run five commuter trains per direction per route, and five routes had been proposed in the past, it soaks up 3 million sf of parking demand vs only 600,000 sf for GCRTA's existing park-n-ride buses. Clearly it's an oversimplified example, but I do believe this range of data is correct.

If that was done, the downtown parking lots are worth a lot less as parking, and developers' need for and cost of providing parking is a lot less.

Until that is done, parking in a car-dependent city like Cleveland will always be valuable and place financial burdens on developers and opportunity costs for the city because land used for parking produces less tax revenue and more service costs on cities. So Stark had to pay through the nose for the parking lots. And he has to pay through the nose to provide many levels of structured parking for the huge buildings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on April 16, 2015, 12:15:52 PM
Regardless of anyone's feelings about parking, it's parking that makes this project viable.  It will be a HUGE revenue source for the project.

Also it's location may pull business away from surface lots, making them less valuable to keep the land operating in that manner
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 16, 2015, 12:20:49 PM
Regardless of anyone's feelings about parking, it's parking that makes this project viable.  It will be a HUGE revenue source for the project.

Also it's location may pull business away from surface lots, making them less valuable to keep the land operating in that manner

So providing more parking supply devalues remaining parking, and increased car traffic downtown makes alternatives to driving more desirable and hopefully more plentiful. So Punch is right. The parking is a necessary component even if we don't like its volume of supply. How it is supplied (ie: design) is another matter.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on April 17, 2015, 08:39:26 AM
Regardless of anyone's feelings about parking, it's parking that makes this project viable.  It will be a HUGE revenue source for the project.

Also it's location may pull business away from surface lots, making them less valuable to keep the land operating in that manner

Keep in mind that the current lot operators have a lot of clout and they will oppose both transit expansion and parking expansion.

Supposedly, they are the ones that shot down Progressive's plan to have integral parking in their tower, causing Peter Lewis to walk away from the whole deal.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 17, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Except that Stark now owns the two largest swaths of surfacing parking downtown. Weston, another major developer, owns much of the rest. Sure, they contract out the parking operation. But they are the landlords.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fmp in nyc on April 22, 2015, 08:21:15 PM
What if the design for the building is pre-fabricated parts, and after the foundation is set, the structure goes up in a month?  Is that possible with a building that high?  (I heard the tallest is around 30 floors [there's a you-tube video where a building in China goes up in 15 days are unfamiliar])
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on April 22, 2015, 08:38:09 PM
Possible? Yes. Likely? No. This building's structure will vary too much from section to section to really be a good contender for modular construction. Aspects could be but it wouldn't be worth it.

One benefit that company in China has is that they have MASSIVE factories churning out their pieces and parts that they've perfected over the last decade or so. We don't have anyone doing that here which would mean you'd need to find somewhere else in order to produce the pieces and ship them. At that point it really becomes cost prohibitive and logistics prohibitive.

I'm still waiting on that worlds'-tallest-building-in-90-days plan that company still talks about.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on April 28, 2015, 11:56:33 AM
(http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.com/uoaxe.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MikeyB440 on May 29, 2015, 03:08:04 PM
Has anyone heard any rumblings about this project lately? I have a feeling that the parking garage will not be completed by the RNC like previously proposed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 3231 on May 29, 2015, 03:52:21 PM
But Stark never over-promises and under-delivers..
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on May 29, 2015, 11:37:26 PM
^dont be sassy ;)



Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on May 31, 2015, 09:44:42 PM
I notice some more detail in his Nucleus brochure:
http://www.starkenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/OH_Cleveland_nuCLEus_iPad.pdf

However I still don't see any mention on his site to 515 Euclid, which is a bit surprising for someone allegedly trying to market it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on June 06, 2015, 01:07:22 PM
i wonder if he got any bites at the retail convention in las vegas for this? or a hotel commitment? it would sure help him secure financing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fmp in nyc on July 25, 2015, 12:22:02 PM
I thought he wanted to have a parking garage built in time for the convention... any reports of ground being broken?  Anything?  They better hurry up!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on July 25, 2015, 07:55:08 PM
Why yes, the former garage was demolished, the site has been fully excavated, foundations have been poured and we should be seeing structural steel going up this week #nothowitworks
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PoshSteve on July 26, 2015, 08:27:15 AM
I don't think we'll be seeing a new garage/retail in time for the convention. If anything we might have an expanded and freshly paved surface lot there. They would probably make more money selling parking in the old garage for it though, since we're supposed to have "no orange barrels" and what-have-you doing that time...  :roll:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ArtMasterCLE on July 27, 2015, 06:32:00 AM
Is anyone at all concerned that this great project may be dying quietly? Given the urgency Stark showed in the early stages of development, I would have expected to see more news--certainly updated designs by now to keep his marketing momentum going at full speed. Has anyone heard or seen anything?
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on July 27, 2015, 06:37:04 AM
All I can say I know is that an RFP went out early summer for a CM. They chose a CM a few weeks ago and are currently in preconstructuon. The project is still alive... I just don't think you'll see anything before the convention. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on July 27, 2015, 07:12:46 AM
^Thanks for the info
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ArtMasterCLE on July 27, 2015, 07:12:58 AM
Thank you Klingaling87. Selelection for a CM does show positive movement. But if it were me, I would want to keep the spotlight on the project with exciting updated designs, taking advantage of the inevitable attention on the city due to the approaching RNC. This could assist in his efforts to land national retail tenants and prelease his office space--ultimately securing any financing he needs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on July 27, 2015, 07:16:19 AM
Is anyone at all concerned that this great project may be dying quietly? Given the urgency Stark showed in the early stages of development, I would have expected to see more news--certainly updated designs by now to keep his marketing momentum going at full speed. Has anyone heard or seen anything?
Any thoughts?
 

Really did anybody believe the time line that was being suggested when this project was first announced.  It really did not seem realistic...just Stark being Stark
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ArtMasterCLE on July 27, 2015, 07:49:53 AM
Agreed. I didn't believe Starks construction and completion projections for a second. But I did expect that once he engaged NBBJ as his design architect he would take advantage of the visual momentum created by the design process for marketing purposes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: yanni_gogolak on July 28, 2015, 01:33:33 PM
Agreed. I didn't believe Starks construction and completion projections for a second. But I did expect that once he engaged NBBJ as his design architect he would take advantage of the visual momentum created by the design process for marketing purposes.

It takes more than a few days to design a project of this magnitude.

Thank you Klingaling87. Selelection for a CM does show positive movement. But if it were me, I would want to keep the spotlight on the project with exciting updated designs, taking advantage of the inevitable attention on the city due to the approaching RNC. This could assist in his efforts to land national retail tenants and prelease his office space--ultimately securing any financing he needs.

You don't get national tenants by flashing a couple of fancy renderings on the news and in the newspaper. They are a large corporation who knows how to get national anchors. I'm sure they are in talks with a lot of potentials.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on July 28, 2015, 01:50:58 PM
Along with being a member, I subscribe to ICSC (International Council of Shopping Centers) magazine.  I will say Stark advertises heavily in the magazine and has been doing so for the past several months. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on July 28, 2015, 06:32:10 PM
Also, according to a friend involved with the project, NBBJ is progressing with the project as if it is happening.  Nobody likes paying architects for a project that isn't happening.  Just because nothing is visibly happening in the public realm doesn't mean a project is dead.  Half of this page is dedicated to trying to manifest nervousness on uninformed speculation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on July 28, 2015, 06:43:50 PM
I'm sure Stark is just waiting until there are enough solid tenants signed on before making any more major public announcements. And if anyone has the connections to do that in downtown Cleveland, it's Stark. I am pretty confident that this project will happen. I guess it's just a matter of "when." Obviously, we'd all like to see work starting tomorrow, but that's just not how these projects work.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BelievelandD1 on July 28, 2015, 07:02:40 PM
In the meantime he just keeps stockpiling at Crocker park. Wonder if he can guide future interest to downtown
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on July 28, 2015, 07:35:07 PM
^^There's more than just lining up the tenants. Also need to line up the massive public subsidies.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on July 28, 2015, 08:17:27 PM
Stark once told me that retail tenants won't sign up unless a complementary tenant is there, and that complementary tenant won't sign up if their complements haven't signed yet. And those complements won't sign unless there's the right anchor or two. And one anchor won't sign unless the right mix of retailers are interested. It's like putting together a puzzle without being able to see the pieces. But if you get the right tenant interested, everything suddenly falls into place after many months of trying.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on July 28, 2015, 08:22:46 PM
I imagine I can pretty much guess the answer to this but is the city putting any pressure on him to at least start work on those condemned Prospect buildings that really kicked this whole thing off.  Is that little parking lot still roped off or is the city now letting them use it since that evil LA group is out of the picture.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ArtMasterCLE on July 29, 2015, 08:39:01 AM
Thank you all for your feedback and insights. I asked the question because I'd heard nothing since the Benesch lease was announced. I know Mr. Stark envisions nuCLEus as catalytic and critical to the next level of downtown's emergence as a great place to live and work--and I agree. I can think of only two previous occasions that a project has had this kind of potential to so profoundly elevate downtown Cleveland, and for various reasons, neither came to fruition. Those projects were the Progressive Headquarters tower on the lakefront and the Ameritrust Center on Public Square. The nuCLEus development might convince other developers that a mixed use investment of this quality and scale can be done in Cleveland. Selfishly speaking, I also think it will shut up the naysayers. I am convinced Mr. Stark will pull this off in grand fashion.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on August 05, 2015, 12:45:37 PM
Not sure if this will affect nucleus in any way but still interesting.

Stark Enterprises Announces New Capital Markets Division

August 04, 2015 03:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time
CLEVELAND--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Stark Enterprises, owner and operator of more than seven million square feet of Class A commercial real estate in Ohio, is announcing the addition of Stark Capital Group (SCG).
As a new division of Stark Enterprises, SCG will provide comprehensive real estate capital markets solutions with an emphasis on equity and debt placements, principal acquisitions and asset management.
“As a rapidly growing company with more than $1 billion in our development pipeline, we are confident the time is right to launch this type of endeavor,” said Ezra Stark, chief operating officer, Stark Enterprises. “SCG has the unique ability to structure complex transactions, and is consistently able to secure the most favorable terms available through a variety of institutional and private capital sources, which is crucial for Stark Enterprises as we aggressively expand our portfolio. SCG partners include private equity investors, insurance companies, pension and opportunity funds, family offices and high net worth individuals.”

Nico Bolzan will serve as Executive Director of SCG. With more than 20 years of senior leadership in business development, capital markets, asset management and structured finance for real property markets across a national platform, Bolzan will lead efforts to raise both equity and debt financing through a variety of private and institutional capital sources on a national level.

Bolzan has identified three types of opportunities in the marketplace for Stark Enterprises. These include ground-up development and redevelopment, recapitalization of existing assets and the acquisition of income- producing properties that have a value add component. In terms of its acquisition profile, Bolzan says the company is seeking Class B or higher quality income producing commercial real estate assets valued anywhere from $5-50 million. “This investing style is low-risk, value-added and will focus on income-producing assets across the Midwest and East Coast,” said Bolzan. “We want to aggressively acquire real estate assets that combine a healthy income return for our partners along with a solid appreciation that comes from Stark’s ability to operate the real estate and add value through our management and leasing expertise.”

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on August 05, 2015, 02:44:48 PM
I can think of only two previous occasions that a project has had this kind of potential to so profoundly elevate downtown Cleveland, and for various reasons, neither came to fruition. Those projects were the Progressive Headquarters tower on the lakefront and the Ameritrust Center on Public Square.

Ever hear of Pescht?  That was a project which had more potential for Downtown, IMO, than either of the two skyscraper projects you mention.  It was proposed by Stark and never went anywhere, partly because of the recession.  But it is the main reason so many of us are skeptical of Stark's chest-pounding.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on August 05, 2015, 02:58:19 PM
I think the parking structure and ground level retail - extention of E.4th is a sure thing
The skyscrapers is a hopeful thing
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on August 05, 2015, 03:08:48 PM
I think the parking structure and ground level retail - extention of E.4th is a sure thing
The skyscrapers is a hopeful thing
I'm quite the opposite, I think financing looks more favorably on residential and office suites in a tower, and the market at this point demands it more so.  I think the pieces/parts of the retail component are the rubiks cube in the whole equation.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on August 05, 2015, 03:30:48 PM
I have always been more cautious  than many on this board ever since this project was announced, especially when it comes to the suggested time line.  Stark has an ego and likes to puff.  He has fulfilled some of his dreams, but slowly and in the wealthier suburbs where the task is a bit easier.  So at least he has some what of a track record, but again nothing big in an urban environment that I am aware of.

Still, the thing that gives me hope is that he spent a hell of a lot of money for two surface parking lots, a parking garage that is basically falling down and some condemned buildings on Prospect that the city is pushing for renovation.  Hard to compare this to Pesht because that was always really a fantasy from day one, recession or not.  He owned hardly any of the property (I think just that small parcel on west third) and the scope was immense.  At this point he does have a lot invested in this project...not only the property purchase but I would imagine significant arch and engineering fees to date.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on August 05, 2015, 03:37:11 PM

Dont know how significant this is
these "Talmer" signs recently went up around the property. very recently.

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/pwmcleveland/ebf/IMG_3808_zpsymnrctp4.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on August 05, 2015, 05:03:12 PM
Well I just spent the last 30 min trying to find a connection between Talmer and nucleus...I got nothing...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on August 05, 2015, 05:36:42 PM

Well here's a better connection from above   :wink:

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/pwmcleveland/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmehqbvtc.jpg)


edit for the emoticon because that is how my statement shold be interpreted. Thanks for looking for a connection
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on August 05, 2015, 07:09:33 PM
^Oh, no worries. Besides, @KJP has probably already made a dozen phone calls, went over his notes on the soil analysis, did a couple sessions on the dark web, called in some favors, made a site visit..etc.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on August 05, 2015, 10:00:42 PM
Well I just spent the last 30 min trying to find a connection between Talmer and nucleus...I got nothing...

Solon?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 05, 2015, 11:53:50 PM
^Oh, no worries. Besides, @KJP has probably already made a dozen phone calls, went over his notes on the soil analysis, did a couple sessions on the dark web, called in some favors, made a site visit..etc.

Those days, sadly, are behind me. :(
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: AJ93 on August 06, 2015, 07:26:29 AM
Talmer is a privately held bank, out of Michigan. A couple years ago they bought the assets of First Place Bank which was in distress. They have been very aggressive in the commercial lending market, so I'm not surprised to see their signs all over. Very small branch presence, however, particularly in Cuyahoga.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on August 06, 2015, 08:48:23 AM
Talmer is a privately held bank, out of Michigan. A couple years ago they bought the assets of First Place Bank which was in distress. They have been very aggressive in the commercial lending market, so I'm not surprised to see their signs all over. Very small branch presence, however, particularly in Cuyahoga.

My second mortgage is through Talmer....I'm still waiting for the day they become technologically advanced where I can make a payment online.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on August 06, 2015, 09:10:13 AM

Talmer is a privately held bank, out of Michigan. A couple years ago they bought the assets of First Place Bank which was in distress. They have been very aggressive in the commercial lending market, so I'm not surprised to see their signs all over. Very small branch presence, however, particularly in Cuyahoga.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 06, 2015, 09:13:02 AM
Wonder how this corporate development might relate to nuCLEus?

Stark Enterprises forms capital markets division
August 05, 2015 UPDATED 10 HOURS AGO
By CRAIN'S CLEVELAND BUSINESS

Real estate developer Stark Enterprises of Cleveland is expanding its horizons.

The company, which owns and operates more than 7 million square feet of Class A commercial real estate in Ohio, said it has formed a capital markets division called Stark Capital Group.

Stark Enterprises said in a news release that Stark Capital “will provide comprehensive real estate capital markets solutions with an emphasis on equity and debt placements, principal acquisitions and asset management.”

Ezra Stark, chief operating officer of Stark Enterprises, said in the release that Stark Capital “has the unique ability to structure complex transactions, and is consistently able to secure the most favorable terms available through a variety of institutional and private capital sources, which is crucial for Stark Enterprises as we aggressively expand our portfolio.”

MORE:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20150805/NEWS/150809925/stark-enterprises-forms-capital-markets-division#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccl-dailynews&utm_campaign=ccl-dailynews-20150805
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 06, 2015, 09:15:28 AM
So the Talmer signs say that Stark got financing for this project. But did he get all of the financing he needs?? If not, for what part(s) did he get financing?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JG on August 08, 2015, 04:39:13 PM
There is netting on the cornice of the "Goldfish" building.  I'm really hoping that these  three buildings can be saved.  Maybe the facade on the far left building will be removed and we will see another amazing restoration like the Schofield!

(http://i.imgur.com/KD04EIU.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on August 09, 2015, 08:34:47 AM

there's a netting that makes sense. THat cornice is very delicate , looks just like  the one on the City Club building, and the building is uninhabited.
Letting buildings fall into dangerous disrepair hopefully is becoming a thing of the past, (inspections?  especialy after what happened at Garfield, soon Corning Pl. , and one of JHB's facades). Perpetual nets probably wont go away.
I believe  this is actually known as the Kendal Building. If accurately restored (?when accurately restored) it would look fantastic. No matter what, it is in my top ten favorite dt buildings (*low-rise Belle Epoch commercial building - a rarity in dt Cle).
For this cluster to be demolished would be a terrible thing.

Btw as i understand it, the far left building's c.1930s "modernization" will not be removed b/c it is historic in and of itself.


I wonder where all of this stands now (quoted from the G'Way thread):

Just so everyone is abreast of the latest goings on:

The Goldfish Supply building at 210 Prospect Ave (PPN:101-28-004) AND the building next to it (PPN: 101-28-004) are at the very tail end of a tax foreclosure case -
CV-13-805115 WOODS COVE II, LLC vs. PROSPECT AVENUE PROPERTIES, LLC
http://cpdocket.cp.cuyahogacounty.us/CV_CaseInformation_Docket.aspx?q=RY7R9ii7HV8jkGmVFcOcbg2

On 7/09/2014: Woods Cove II, LLC (Plaintiff) was granted summary judgment and issued a decree of foreclosure.  The case, however, appears to be dragging on because Woods Cove II, LLC is claiming they are owed attorney's fees by the Defendant.  A hearing on the issue is set for 9/10/2014.

Unless the owner comes up with some serious cash, these parcels will end up at sheriff's sale in the near future.  Will be interesting to see how this plays.  Remember that Weston bought the building in the middle of the block (PPN: 101-28-005) in 2012.  L&R is set to transfer the easternmost building (101-28-006) and the adjacent parking lot (101-28-007) to Bob Stark if all goes according to plan (praying it does).

This entire block could potentially be in the hands of entities capable and willing to actually do something with it.  Fingers crossed.




*edit


Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on August 10, 2015, 06:37:45 AM
Crap, isn't that middle building the location of Leo Mintz's Record Rendevous?  If so, it's one of the most historically relevant locations in the city.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on August 17, 2015, 01:46:35 PM
Separately, Stark issued a news release last Friday, Aug. 14, saying that it had retained the Cleveland unit of the Chicago-based The Walsh Group to provide preconstruction services for nuCLEus.

Ted Kramer, vice president of construction at Stark’s Arbor Construction unit, said in the release that Walsh’s experience in high-rise multifamily and high-rise mixed-use construction will be “invaluable” as Arbor plans for nuCLEus.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20150817/BLOGS14/150819832

Here's the release:

http://www.starkenterprises.com/the-walsh-group-named-preconstruction-manager-for-nucleus-project/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on August 17, 2015, 02:56:35 PM
Walsh did a lot of the work in Chicago's south loop
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ragarcia on August 17, 2015, 07:20:22 PM
http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/devnews/officeboom081715.aspx

"The law firm Benesch opting into the ambitious and yet-to-be realized nuCLEus project in the Gateway District with a lease agreement on 66,500 square feet."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on August 17, 2015, 07:31:34 PM

fyi the signage (nucleus logos on the signage, etc etc) has changed at the property. no huge deal but is different
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on August 17, 2015, 07:53:50 PM

fyi the signage (nucleus logos on the signage, etc etc) has changed at the property. no huge deal but is different

(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Dg-ao3bbaLI/VdJ1weUAQYI/AAAAAAAAGTA/NwkEkWkXvyU/s1024-no/IMG_1533.JPG)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on August 18, 2015, 10:39:49 AM

^thanks , and they've added the refrence to the Hotel
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clueless,Ohio on August 18, 2015, 05:13:49 PM

recent observation at 618 Prospect:
There's a sign in the window.... "Construction Event Storewide sale / everything half off / our loss- your gain"
there's also a (generic) illustration of a bulldozer on this sign.
So i spoke w someone assoc w Mr Albert's Mens world and asked : Will you be moving to a new location? and do you know when demoiltion of this building will take place? "I don't know" was the answer to both questions

i guess theres the possibility that the "Storewide sale" may just be because of Prospect's pavement re-surfacing?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: flee2thecleve14 on August 24, 2015, 04:42:09 PM
http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/515-euclid-complex/ (http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/515-euclid-complex/)

Just was searching Nucleus for any recent news and found this page on Stark's website about adding 200 apartments on top of the 515 Euclid parking garage. Is there another thread for that garage?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fishface on August 24, 2015, 04:59:11 PM
http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/515-euclid-complex/ (http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/515-euclid-complex/)

Just was searching Nucleus for any recent news and found this page on Stark's website about adding 200 apartments on top of the 515 Euclid parking garage. Is there another thread for that garage?

It's in the Completed Project section here:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3198.0.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 24, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/515-euclid-complex/ (http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/515-euclid-complex/)

Just was searching Nucleus for any recent news and found this page on Stark's website about adding 200 apartments on top of the 515 Euclid parking garage. Is there another thread for that garage?

Great find! That's the confirmation of what's been rumored. THAT'S HUGE!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on August 24, 2015, 07:53:10 PM
Im not sure, I'll wait until they give a year when construction will start. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on August 26, 2015, 12:45:49 PM
A commercial building permit has been issued for the parking lot at 320 Prospect ave. under an LLC associated with Stark Enterprises. Really don't know much more, the permit indicates it is for 'site development' and that a city planning date is 'pending'. Idk, it could just mean a fancier parking lot.

https://ca.permitcleveland.org/Public/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=BuildingHousing&TabName=BuildingHousing&capID1=15BHO&capID2=00000&capID3=12022&agencyCode=COC&IsToShowInspection=
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 26, 2015, 01:45:26 PM
Good question! That's the corner that L&R (prior owner) wanted to build the ugly thing shown here....

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18594981/310-320-Prospect-Ave-Cleveland-OH/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on August 26, 2015, 02:19:18 PM
Good question! That's the corner that L&R (prior owner) wanted to build the ugly thing shown here....

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18594981/310-320-Prospect-Ave-Cleveland-OH/

That building screamed "CASH FOR GOLD!!!"
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jfristik on August 26, 2015, 08:39:14 PM
I gotta be honest, I'd take it over the current eyesore that that stretch is... Something is better than nothing. I'm embarrassed anytime someone from out of town goes through that...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 26, 2015, 10:22:25 PM
It certainly would have been colorful, but let's see what Stark has in mind. This corner and the buildings west of it, 515 Euclid and the parking core of nuCLEus appear to be the low-hanging fruit here.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on August 27, 2015, 08:16:29 AM
why would that thing still be on loopnet (says record updated 8 days ago)? Is it still possible to happen? I thought the city squashed it like the bug it is!

Quote from:  jfristik
I gotta be honest, I'd take it over the current eyesore that that stretch is... Something is better than nothing.

its not better than nothing if it prevents a better and multi-story building from being constructed there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on August 27, 2015, 09:50:05 AM
http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18594981/310-320-Prospect-Ave-Cleveland-OH/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3PIrY0TBU0
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Equillibrius on August 27, 2015, 11:16:34 AM
It looks like it would be more at home on the North Olmsted Auto Mile. Just replace all the corporate logos with one big logo of a car manufacturer and it will look like your typical suburban auto dealer showroom.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on August 27, 2015, 11:56:39 AM
Good question! That's the corner that L&R (prior owner) wanted to build the ugly thing shown here....

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18594981/310-320-Prospect-Ave-Cleveland-OH/

Similar to other sites: do we know if anyone really wanted to build this? Or was it just the requirement to show some disingenuous anything redevelopment "plan" to get a demo permit.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 27, 2015, 02:45:30 PM
Thankfully we'll never know.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: lafont on August 29, 2015, 07:56:43 AM
Two comments about previous posts:  Doesn't Albert's always have "For Sale" signs on display in the windows?
As for the building with the black glass, maybe it could be restored to its original exterior materials, if there's really enough there, but this is a case, imho, that the glossy facade is really striking, very '30s and '40s, and I'd like to see it stay - all cleaned and restored to its original appearance, of course.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on September 17, 2015, 06:33:24 PM
Any news on Nucleus? It's been strangely quiet. Too quiet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on September 17, 2015, 06:43:04 PM
They are probably trying to secure more leases, which will in tern make financing easier.  So, a bit of downtime is to be expected. 

But, phase 1 on the other hand, should have already kicked off if it were to make the 2016 RNC cut off
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on September 23, 2015, 11:14:58 PM
So  I think this means 320 Prospect is going to stay a parking lot for awhile.
https://ca.permitcleveland.org/Public/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=BuildingHousing&TabName=BuildingHousing&capID1=15BCO&capID2=00000&capID3=00769&agencyCode=COC&IsToShowInspection=

Applicant:
1350 W.3RD ST
CLEVELAND, OH, 44113

Project Description:
320 Prospect Ave - Parking Lot
ESTABLISH USE OF 13 SPACE PARKING LOT PER APPROVED PLANS. SPECIAL CONDITIONS APPY BASED ON THE APPROVAL OF THE STRUCTURE AT 310 PROSPECT. THE TEMPORARY STABILIZATION OF 310 PROSPECT MUST BE MAINTAINED. ALL CORRECTIONS REQ'D BY 05/31/17 FOR CONTINUED OCCUPANCY OF THE PARKING LOT AT 320 PROSPECT.

Owner:GATEWAY HURON LLC C/O HEROLD BLDG. LLC
1350 W.3RD ST
CLEVELAND OH 44113
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on September 24, 2015, 09:07:55 AM
Not to sound too pessimistic, but I suggest folks (especially younger folks) take a look at the time stamp on the first posts of other big, new-build projects in Cleveland, like Uptown and Flats East Bank, for a sense how long these things can take in our market. Given the huge public subsidies that go into them, all the commercial pre-leasing needed to get the private part of the financing, and the risk of unanticipated market changes in the meantime, it's a long timeline. Not saying NuCLEus will take 11 years or whatever it took for the residential portion of FEB, but I doubt groundbreaking will happen anytime in the next year or two. Except maybe a new parking garage, I guess.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on September 24, 2015, 10:56:19 AM
^ I don't think that's pessimistic. That's just a realistic view of development. It's very rare that a development will be like The 9, where it's brought from conception to completion in a little over a year. However, I doubt this will take as long as Flats East Bank or Uptown. The market is in much better shape now. There should be no worries about attracting enough apartment tenants, they already have that law firm signed on for the office space, and I think they have a hotel tenant in the works as well. I think the only thing really holding this up is the commercial/retail component, and this is probably because (as mentioned previously), certain tenants won't sign until other certain tenants of another type sign. So, I think eventually it will all just fall into place.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on September 24, 2015, 11:01:59 AM
As long as we don't have another financial crisis like the one in 2008-2010! And as you say, the urban residential market (rents, inventory, occupancy, experience) is much more advanced now. I think a project like 515 Euclid could happen relatively quickly (within two years?), as might some of the building rehabs and low-level new construction on the SE corner of East 4th and Prospect. I will be shocked if the 54-story happens as designed within 5-7 years. Perhaps its parking deck could happen sooner.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on October 30, 2015, 09:29:06 AM
Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on October 30, 2015, 09:42:09 AM
And it is who.....?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YO to the CLE on October 30, 2015, 09:45:21 AM
Yeah that's not even cool on a Friday. You gotta give some details!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: flee2thecleve14 on October 30, 2015, 09:48:06 AM
Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting.

I arrived later at the Q3 market update meeting, so I may have missed the nuCLEus tip. Did they mention if it was an office or retail/restaurant tenant?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on October 30, 2015, 09:51:02 AM
Sorry, but that's all they told us...This news did come directly from Tracey Nichols.  I'm sure we'll be hearing more details very soon!

Tracey sounded optimistic this would help move financing forward. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on October 30, 2015, 09:51:29 AM
Yeah that's not even cool on a Friday. You gotta give some details!
Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting.

I arrived later at the Q3 market update meeting, so I may have missed the nuCLEus tip. Did they mention if it was an office or retail/restaurant tenant?

Nope.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on October 30, 2015, 10:31:36 AM
I would think that "anchor" tenant for this project would have to be for office space.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on October 30, 2015, 10:35:05 AM
Or the hotel. Nothing has been announced in that regard yet, right?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on October 30, 2015, 01:01:32 PM
Couldn't it also be a retail tenant? It seems like the retail component might actually be the most difficult part of this project. Often with retail, certain tenants will only sign on if another type of tenant is signed on. And that tenant will only sign if there's yet another type of tenant signed on (etc.). So sometimes it just takes one major retail tenant to create a ripple effect and give the project serious momentum.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on October 30, 2015, 04:22:10 PM
Although I love the NuCLEus development, I am losing interest in the tall 50+ story model office building. I believe our skyline is too vertical with no balance, the buildings seem to drop off to much and has too many gaps depending on the angle in which you view it. I'd much rather have two 25-30 story office buildings with retail at the bottom, maybe with the hotel mixed with them. I know it may not be a popular view but our skyline imo is too vertical and skinny and lacks great density. This would be the perfect step towards changing that.

EDIT: I believe another reason I feel like the height is too tall is due to its location. The buildings on prospect are lower rise compared to other streets. Starting at the aforementioned height would allow the skyline to have more density, while allowing future projects to be taller without new/old buildings looking out of place. Just a personal opinion.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on October 30, 2015, 05:03:53 PM
^ Really? Our skyline is not that vertical, compared to many other cities. I think a tall modern building is really what we need to show that Cleveland is a modern city.

I also don't think skylines are that important, tbh. I pay attention to the individual architecture of buildings. If the architecture is good, usually a good skyline just kinda happens naturally.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on October 30, 2015, 05:05:33 PM
^the only way you'll get the density of high rises is to have a bunch of them. so this would be our 4th...and eventually we'll see a 5th, 6th, 7th, etc.  But we won't if we instead push for your wish:

Quote from: McLovin
I'd much rather have two 25-30 story office buildings

We need more--not less--tall bldgs....if anything even one more would balance out the other three.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on October 30, 2015, 05:52:26 PM
That's been Cleveland's calling card since 1930, a very unbalanced skyline.  The gaps are more pronounced because our tallest buildings are surrounded by so much open space.  Some of that effect is intentional, like it or not.  A completed west end would take care of the unintentional part. 

I do like the positioning of this new tower because it keeps most of the height close to the river and the square, adding to the existing crescendo effect and emphasizing that this is the city's true core.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on October 30, 2015, 06:01:23 PM
^the only way you'll get the density of high rises is to have a bunch of them. so this would be our 4th...and eventually we'll see a 5th, 6th, 7th, etc.  But we won't if we instead push for your wish:

Quote from: McLovin
I'd much rather have two 25-30 story office buildings

We need more--not less--tall bldgs....if anything even one more would balance out the other three.
I believe that is a great height to create a nice dense downtown, look at Cincinnati they don't try to get super talls and they have a great dense skyline, probably the most dense in Ohio. Great architecture is very important, which this project has. I feel like even though this would be our fourth skyscraper, we are not New York or Chicago so skyscrapers don't come along often and we would be waiting years for our 5th, 6th, 7th etc. I believe 30 story buildings would be easier to come by (at least more so than a skyscraper) and fill in our downtown nicely (if done correctly). I don't want to take this off topic (I'm not sure if I am) so I will just leave it here to prevent a tangent.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 30, 2015, 06:37:47 PM
I'll take a downtown with a couple dozen 20-something-story buildings than one with four 50-something-story buildings + only a dozen 20-something-story buildings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: pgn711 on October 30, 2015, 07:07:18 PM
Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting.

Will you please post a link to the Q3 update when it's available? I don't see it on the DCA's website yet...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on October 30, 2015, 07:45:42 PM
We already have 33 buildings downtown that are over 250 feet and most of these are over 20 stories.  This is a good foundation for a great skyline.

Cleveland needs several buildings over 500 feet to be a great skyline.  Nucleus is a great start and would balance out the skyline with a tall building south of Euclid and Public Square.  The AT&T and the 9 buildings are nearby that are fairly tall buildings.  So, I don't think it would be out of place by any stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on October 31, 2015, 09:12:30 AM
The best parts of downtown at street level are those gaps you see in the skyline from a distance
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: fmp in nyc on November 05, 2015, 08:53:50 PM
More 20-30 floor buildings? NO WAY!!  That new Hilton is 30-32 short floors and it isn't very visible from a distance.  Cleveland needs more 500 ft + buildings.  By some standards, Columbus is ranked ahead of Cleveland because of the # of 500+ plus buildings (5 vs 4).  That's not cool.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 05, 2015, 08:59:33 PM
More 20-30 floor buildings? NO WAY!!  That new Hilton is 30-32 short floors and it isn't very visible from a distance.  Cleveland needs more 500 ft + buildings.  By some standards, Columbus is ranked ahead of Cleveland because of the # of 500+ plus buildings (5 vs 4).  That's not cool.

We need more 500 feet+ buildings? Maybe when all of our empty lots are filled up and real estate becomes so expensive and in such high demand that we need to build vertical. I love tall buildings as much as the next guy, but it really doesn't make much sense for us to be building those right now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on November 05, 2015, 09:04:49 PM
"We" shouldn't decide how tall buildings should or shouldn't be.  The landowner/developer is the one who makes that decision.  If Bobby Stark wants to build 50+ stories into the sky, then god bless him.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 05, 2015, 09:13:29 PM
^ Well, obviously. I'm still not convinced that we're going to see a 500'+ tower at nuCLEus, but if the market is there, then go for it. I'm just pushing back against the mindset that tall buildings are needed just because we want an impressive skyline.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on November 05, 2015, 10:37:12 PM
^No one is saying that in exchange for tall buildings we'll take vacant lots in between. We're only saying we should want 50+ story bldgs and should not compromise for a short, squat city of 20-30 story bldgs.

Of course--IN ADDITION to having 500'+ bldgs, we want a constant street wall of bldgs and activity and not isolated towers separated by nothingness. If the space between the tall skyscrapers are filled with 20-30 story bldgs, that's great. But a city with three towers and the remainder as Justice Center-height bldgs is not a goal we should be shooting for to be a grand city.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 05, 2015, 11:05:05 PM
It's possible that Stark is seeking such a large building to generate enough revenue from our downtown's low rents to finance the high price he had to pay for the parking lots. Sadly, our parking lots are so valuable because the metro area is so sprawled out there's few residential concentrations for transit to tap into and make those parking lots less important.

Seeking a 500-footer for the sake of having one in a downtown littered with so many surface parking lots is the equivalent of driving a monster truck to compensate for a small weenie. Such a big building doesn't make your anemic downtown any healthier. In fact, if more small buildings are sacrificed for more surface parking lots or an attached parking garage is built so that office workers never step out on to the sidewalk, it makes your downtown less of a walker's paradise and a less appealing place to be.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on November 05, 2015, 11:17:53 PM
I wish they put Nucleus on Public Square on that empty lot, then build outward from the location. I agree with earlier posters. We need taller buildings more like Erieview tower height to even out the skyline. We also need to fill in those parking lots/ gaps in the skyline...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 05, 2015, 11:32:45 PM
I wish they put Nucleus on Public Square on that empty lot, then build outward from the location. I agree with earlier posters. We need taller buildings more like Erieview tower height to even out the skyline. We also need to fill in those parking lots/ gaps in the skyline...

As excited as I was when I first saw plans for nuCLEus, I also lamented the fact that Stark had seemingly abandoned plans for developing the Warehouse District. Those parking lots do more to destroy the urban fabric downtown than the parking lot next to the Q.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on November 06, 2015, 08:24:47 AM
If surface parking is an undesirable land use, it could be taxed more.  That might solve multiple problems at once.  The problem is that it's viewed as a desirable land use.  There's actually a lot of support for it.  Business owners along West 6th have openly opposed any development of the lots there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 06, 2015, 09:49:00 AM
If surface parking is an undesirable land use, it could be taxed more.  That might solve multiple problems at once.  The problem is that it's viewed as a desirable land use.  There's actually a lot of support for it.  Business owners along West 6th have openly opposed any development of the lots there.

Taxes cannot be applied punitively. Now if the sewer district wants to add an impervious surfaces tax to address the costs of stormwater runoff, or similar cost of so much pavement, etc. that might be legal.

But we're getting off subject here.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on November 06, 2015, 10:29:29 AM
Who said anything about punitive?  There's already a tax.  Anyway, point is I'd bet that Stark met a lot less resistance to building this project on this lot, as compared to his earlier WHD plan.  A taller tower with a smaller footprint has less impact on surface parking.  We here aren't fans of that, but there is a fan base, and suburban commuters are only one portion of it.  All in all, this project is a huge victory so I'm not worrying about what could have been.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on November 06, 2015, 10:51:36 AM
These conversations about demanding 500'+ buildings to balance out the skyline is baffling.
I always thought it would be interesting to tax vacant (surface lot considered vacant) parcels in the central business district at the full height and square footage that zoning allows.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 06, 2015, 10:55:18 AM
Who said anything about punitive?  There's already a tax.  Anyway, point is I'd bet that Stark met a lot less resistance to building this project on this lot, as compared to his earlier WHD plan.  A taller tower with a smaller footprint has less impact on surface parking.  We here aren't fans of that, but there is a fan base, and suburban commuters are only one portion of it.  All in all, this project is a huge victory so I'm not worrying about what could have been.

You said "undesirable."
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sky on November 06, 2015, 11:07:06 AM
There is not "resistance" to developing on West 6th.  My sources say this will happen long before Stark builds any new office or residential building for nucleus.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 06, 2015, 12:34:43 PM
These conversations about demanding 500'+ buildings to balance out the skyline is baffling.
I always thought it would be interesting to tax vacant (surface lot considered vacant) parcels in the central business district at the full height and square footage that zoning allows.
If the city adopted form based code, it may be possible. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on November 06, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
I just want to say how annoying it is to type nuCLEus.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Whipjacka on November 06, 2015, 06:03:42 PM
but the pun wouldn't be apparent without the caps
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CbusTransit on November 06, 2015, 06:40:45 PM
you could also tax land value higher than building value...therefore making it more expensive to own a parking lot than to build a building on it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 06, 2015, 10:01:45 PM
you could also tax land value higher than building value...therefore making it more expensive to own a parking lot than to build a building on it.

Responding here:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,29155.msg778412.html#msg778412
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CbusTransit on November 07, 2015, 07:04:18 AM
In actual nucleus news, i think this is a new brochure with some new renderings. I hadn't seen the laneway rendering shown in here before:
http://www.starkenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/OH_Cleveland_nuCLEus_iPad.pdf
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 07, 2015, 09:04:07 AM
They do look new.  I like this project, a lot.  Only thing I am a bit skeptical on is closing this section of 4th to vehicular traffic.  It remove a bit of the urban fabric, and only keeps the option of 9th and Ontario as a cut through. From Euclid down to Huron, this would leave 9th and Ontario as the only north south route.  It also doesn't seem inviting to cyclists imho.  I an imagine during evening hours especially, bikes are not very welcome along 4th unless they're being walked.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 07, 2015, 12:09:20 PM
^ I don't mind it not being friendly to cyclists if it's because that the road is overly friendly to pedestrians.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on November 07, 2015, 01:37:16 PM
I think they're insane if they think that "Laneway" is going to be a pleasant place to be.  It will be like dining inside a parking garage.  If they were smart, they would do more "liner residential" along that laneway and along all of East 4th St., if not along Huron, too.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CbusTransit on November 07, 2015, 02:45:46 PM
That's a really interesting point. That laneway would have honking, screeching, motors, etc noises not only happening but reverberating throughout the alley. I hope they have a plan for all that noise...

And then you have the exhaust. hmmm
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 07, 2015, 03:56:20 PM
My brother's company was selected to install all the appliances in Crocker Park's new residential buildings and was just selected to install all the appliances in nuCLEus as well. If they're at the point where they're selecting people to do installation of things like appliances then that's a good sign that this won't sit on the drawing boards forever then just wither away.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on November 07, 2015, 05:02:41 PM
My brother's company was selected to install all the appliances in Crocker Park's new residential buildings and was just selected to install all the appliances in nuCLEus as well. If they're at the point where they're selecting people to do installation of things like appliances then that's a good sign that this won't sit on the drawing boards forever then just wither away.
Sounds like some inside pics too :D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 09, 2015, 08:11:25 PM
These were Stark's inspiration for nuCLEus's laneways...

“If you can design a good street, you have a good city.” #Melbourne's lanes. https://t.co/NXQE0iIZv8 v/@UrbanistOrg https://t.co/tRFggwDj0o
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 10, 2015, 10:05:53 AM
Stark Enterprises apparently doesn't have enough on its plate...

Cleveland-based developer has new plan for Purple Hotel site
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lincolnwood/news/ct-lwr-purple-hotel-tl-1112-20151109-story.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jfristik on November 20, 2015, 07:13:22 AM
Is there growing concern that this project is not going to make it past concept art, or am I just impatient?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on November 20, 2015, 07:56:31 AM
Be patient, these things take years.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 20, 2015, 08:00:26 AM
You're being impatient, yes. Especially since they've already selected suppliers for various aspects of the residential tower which is not something a project that would only make it to the schematic phase would have happening.

skyscrapers are giant projects. We have no idea how far along they were when they released those renderings. It's likely it was early in the schematic phase so you still had the entire design process still to go through which, for a building that size, can take a team well over a year alone. Then permitting, financing (which we've heard on several occasions is coming along), contract signing with suppliers, contractors, sub contractors, etc. This isn't a fast process for any building let alone one this scale.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on November 20, 2015, 08:26:52 AM
^agreed. I think it will go in some capacity, though I don't believe it will be built as originally designed. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 20, 2015, 08:31:44 AM
Not from what I'm hearing. The tower and hotel bridge were the selling point and is absolutely the goal of the project.

I stated upthread that my brother's company was selected to install appliances in the apartments. The information they were given is for the tower as shown previously. They're definitely moving forward with that design.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on November 20, 2015, 08:53:14 AM
I wish they put Nucleus on Public Square on that empty lot, then build outward from the location. I agree with earlier posters. We need taller buildings more like Erieview tower height to even out the skyline. We also need to fill in those parking lots/ gaps in the skyline...

welp -- at long last it looks like mission accomplished on the majority of the parking lots front. i am still kind of stunned to read about that this morning. and it didnt take moving nucleus to do it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on November 20, 2015, 09:35:47 AM
You're being impatient, yes. Especially since they've already selected suppliers for various aspects of the residential tower which is not something a project that would only make it to the schematic phase would have happening.

skyscrapers are giant projects. We have no idea how far along they were when they released those renderings. It's likely it was early in the schematic phase so you still had the entire design process still to go through which, for a building that size, can take a team well over a year alone. Then permitting, financing (which we've heard on several occasions is coming along), contract signing with suppliers, contractors, sub contractors, etc. This isn't a fast process for any building let alone one this scale.

It probably also helps them that they won't be breaking ground before the RNC, giving them a built in buffer time to work things out....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on November 20, 2015, 10:23:21 AM
Not from what I'm hearing. The tower and hotel bridge were the selling point and is absolutely the goal of the project.

I stated upthread that my brother's company was selected to install appliances in the apartments. The information they were given is for the tower as shown previously. They're definitely moving forward with that design.

I have my doubts based on information that I can't really expose on here. But nonetheless, if they move forward with the way it's currently designed then great.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 29, 2015, 07:12:22 PM
Stark has said Melbourne's lanes are his inspiration for nuCLEus. Just saw this on Twitter. Now Melbourne wants to have green lanes. via @MishoBaranovic: http://participate.melbourne.vic.gov.au/greenlaneways

This is the proposed green lanes in Melbourne:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTjorp3UAAEXyFq.jpg:large)

This is Melbourne's existing lane ways. Think this (or a green lane, above) will work in nuCLEus?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CL-yfP_UEAAoU31.jpg:large)

BTW, while cruising the streets of Melbourne on Streetviews, I spotted a new building (built since 2009) that looks like it may have also inspired Stark. It's a jenga-style condo building: http://empiremelbourne.com.au/
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/652/23408914505_88d7556584_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BEyNJe)nucleus melbourne inspiration (https://flic.kr/p/BEyNJe) by Ken Prendergast (https://www.flickr.com/photos/95438020@N07/), on Flickr

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5701/22780667144_bdfaea03ef_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AH3SFb)nucleus melbourne inspiration2 (https://flic.kr/p/AH3SFb) by Ken Prendergast (https://www.flickr.com/photos/95438020@N07/), on Flickr
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5773/22781863953_6ac4864255_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AHa1rP)nucleus melbourne inspiration3 (https://flic.kr/p/AHa1rP) by Ken Prendergast (https://www.flickr.com/photos/95438020@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ChiCleveKid on November 30, 2015, 02:01:50 PM
Wow that does look like NuCLEus...
Nice find.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sooner on December 26, 2015, 02:55:20 PM
For what it's worth....was at party Thurs. evening talking with a construction guy from a large local company.  They had been  in some talks with Stark about Nucleus.  Although they will not be involved, this person told me that Stark really has this project set to go.  All the prep work is done, etc.  My friend told me he would bet his last dollar that Nucleus happens and  pretty much as currently scaled.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on December 26, 2015, 03:38:15 PM
^That's great to hear. I hope its true and not scaled back in any way. we need the height, density, and variety of uses!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on December 26, 2015, 05:41:56 PM
For what it's worth....was at party Thurs. evening talking with a construction guy from a large local company.  They had been  in some talks with Stark about Nucleus.  Although they will not be involved, this person told me that Stark really has this project set to go.  All the prep work is done, etc.  My friend told me he would bet his last dollar that Nucleus happens and  pretty much as currently scaled.

Great to hear. I am very much looking forward to seeing something so different, architecturally.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: roman totale XVII on December 26, 2015, 07:28:24 PM
Also firmly in the FWIW category; I met someone at a xmas party who is involved in other developments downtown and they said that NuCLEus was a go as is. FEB phase 3 is also definite, but I'm not sure that's new news.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: plinth857 on December 26, 2015, 10:30:39 PM
Also firmly in the FWIW category; I met someone at a xmas party who is involved in other developments downtown and they said that NuCLEus was a go as is. FEB phase 3 is also definite, but I'm not sure that's new news.

Someone I know does accounting work for a contractor who is under contract for concrete work for nuCLEus, and also does accounting work for an HVAC contractor who did a lot of work for FEB phase 2... the HVAC contractor is under contract for the Weston Citymark development, and was given some firm timetables.  It certainly appears that all 3 of these projects are going to be worked on to some degree in 2016.  My hopes are high!

On another note, there is a nice surge of Cleveland pride as I attend gatherings.  It's nice to see.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on December 26, 2015, 10:32:32 PM
Thanks to all you with your insider/Xmas party knowledge. It's great stuff to hear!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 27, 2015, 10:09:44 AM
Thanks to all you with your insider/Xmas party knowledge. It's great stuff to hear!

Ditto. I can't wait for the New Year's parties!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: plinth857 on December 27, 2015, 12:04:29 PM
Thanks to all you with your insider/Xmas party knowledge. It's great stuff to hear!

Ditto. I can't wait for the New Year's parties!!

I have to get all my information by Christmas... New Year's is pretty uneventful for us.  Dinner and a movie is our usual thing, unless I'm playing keyboards somewhere for $$$.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: simplythis on December 27, 2015, 02:26:45 PM
So when does everyone expect grounbreaking on this project? Will it be before or after RNC. They have to demo the parking garage first.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: plinth857 on December 27, 2015, 03:54:01 PM
So when does everyone expect grounbreaking on this project? Will it be before or after RNC. They have to demo the parking garage first.

I'm expecting groundbreaking on this project in August - after the RNC.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 06, 2016, 09:25:35 AM
Here's a blurb about nuCLEus from today's article on 515 Euclid:


"Ezra Stark said that plans for the 515 high-rise aren't an indication that Stark has lost interest in nuCLEus. "They're completely different flavors," he said, adding that apartments on Euclid Avenue will be less costly to rent than those near The Q. "So it's going to attract a very different person."

Stark still is assembling financing for nuCLEus and hopes to start construction on the property – now a parking lot, a dingy garage and a small retail building – after the GOP convention leaves town. Demolition of the existing structures isn't likely to happen before the convention. Construction would take at least two years.

"We have tens of millions invested in nuCLEus, and we are for sure doing it," Ezra Stark said, adding that the project team is negotiating with the city over public financing. "It's a much harder lift. It's a much more complex project."

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2016/01/stark_enterprises_enters_joint.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on January 15, 2016, 09:03:17 PM
I know these bid sites aren't very reliable but I haven't seen 'it' on any one before.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on January 16, 2016, 07:02:14 PM
I wish the lane ways were actually additional arcades, maybe retractable roof arcade? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on January 17, 2016, 12:06:59 AM
^no mention of hotel in that CMD list of uses. hopefully just an oversight by that source.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on January 24, 2016, 10:44:58 AM
I am sure these numbers will continue to change but Stark has an ad in the January SCT that differ from the numbers on the projects website. Website has
150k / Retail - 200k / Office - 1500 / Parking.  SCT ad has 125k / Retail  -  230k / Office  -  2100 / Parking  -  120 room / Hotel.  500 apartments remain the same on both.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CleveFan on January 25, 2016, 05:23:01 PM
First timer here - not an architect, just a "fan" - always great stuff from the regulars here!
Question - Cleveland Planning/Design Commission said they wanted some changes to the look of
Nucleus - that the design was more suitable to a city with many skyscrapers like NY/Chi - it
seems they were concerned about the dramatic contrast between the big 3 and Nucleus.
I'm wondering if/when we'll see the revised design.  Also, I wonder if any of you has any ideas
for how to "tweak" the design, if that is actually happening. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on January 25, 2016, 05:40:28 PM
First I've heard of that.  Did the commission make any suggestions of its own? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: lockdog on January 25, 2016, 06:45:35 PM
I hope that is not true...  I was downtown the other day and marveled at how sleek and modern the hilton looked....  we need more of that....!!!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on January 25, 2016, 07:04:56 PM
Welcome CleveFan!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CleveFan on January 25, 2016, 09:52:50 PM
Thanks Punch - I agree with Lockdog that the Hilton looks amazing (and it looks like we have more of that coming with the Warehouse District Project) - reason for my question:
 the January 16, 2015 article by Steven Litt (I believe) quoting Jennifer Coleman on Nucleus design:  "Coleman said in Thursday's and Friday's meetings that she was concerned about what she viewed as the abrupt termination of the tall apartment tower with a flat roof.

She said she wanted the designers to consider modifying the design to create more of a visual dialogue with the tops of the city's three existing skyscrapers – the 1931 Terminal Tower, the 1985 BP Tower and the 1991 Key Tower, the tallest U.S. building between Philadelphia and Chicago.

"It was one of the first things I thought" about the design, review committee member Thom Geist said at Thursday's meeting. "The top is flat and it just stops. Otherwise, I love it." 

So that's why I wondered if there was any word about possible "tweaks" to the design ...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on January 26, 2016, 09:49:24 AM
She's not wrong, pointy looks better than flat and the theme is worth continuing.  Aside from that I like the design we've seen so far.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Floods7 on January 26, 2016, 11:53:15 AM
Just don't get it. A private developer is putting up a skyscraper, he should be able to design it as he and his money sees fit. Not to mention in a city that should be begging him to go forward with it. Not my favorite design either but im not building it.

---that is all assuming that someone at the planning commission really is having him take a look at changing the design.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on January 26, 2016, 01:57:29 PM
Just don't get it. A private developer is putting up a skyscraper, he should be able to design it as he and his money sees fit. Not to mention in a city that should be begging him to go forward with it. Not my favorite design either but im not building it.

---that is all assuming that someone at the planning commission really is having him take a look at changing the design.

Almost any building built in any city in America is subject to review for the developer to receive it's permits.   Just imagine if Stark wanted to make a 55 story copy of Rhodes Tower or the Justice Center.    Would you let him do that without review?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on January 26, 2016, 02:00:03 PM
^Floods7 is specifically referring to design review, and on that basis, Cleveland is actually pretty extreme. Most NYC sky scrapers, for instance, are built without any discretionary review of any kind.

[edited for typo]
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 26, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
^Floods7 is specifically referring to design review, and on the basis, Cleveland is actually pretty extreme. Most NYC sky scrapers, for instance, are built without any discretionary review of any kind.

And that has been quite an issue for many people in New York in recent years. I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland were on the more extreme end in terms of design review. We are insular by nature, but have been quite conservative in terms of architecture throughout our entire history.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ExPatClevGuy on January 26, 2016, 02:34:25 PM
Conservative is what that flat roof is, shockingly so.  It's a cheap ugly finish to an otherwise fantastic scheme.
Nothing flamboyant about the "flat look" if you ask me.  In fact I'd call it uninspired, even retrograde.     
It's fine to re-hash the Erieview Tower, The 9, PNC Center, IMG, East Ohio Gas, or the Celebrezze Tower, but I hardly think NuCLEus is supposed to be an homage to the 60s-80s.

The sculpted-top skyscrapers on the Cleveland skyline each show evidence of their respective design eras, but they have a timeless quality that the main NuCLEus tower just doesn't present.

I don't think they should just give it a party hat, but that would be a start to designing a fresh look for the punctuation mark of that roof.   

To Strap and TPH2,  NYC has 161 buildings over 400' tall either standing or under construction. If, like Cleveland, NYC only had four skyscrapers of scale on their skyline, they might be a bit more concerned about the aesthetic influence of adding just one more. 
To compare our own design requirements to those of the largest city in the United States seems somewhat inappropriate, wouldn't you say?   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 26, 2016, 04:55:00 PM
Just because someone is willing to invest a substantial amount of money in your community doesn't give them immunity from scrutiny. In some respects, it demands more scrutiny because a greater investment can have a greater impact, both good and bad, on the community.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: deanhorn on January 26, 2016, 06:56:48 PM
I am sure these numbers will continue to change but Stark has an ad in the January SCT that differ from the numbers on the projects website. Website has
150k / Retail - 200k / Office - 1500 / Parking.  SCT ad has 125k / Retail  -  230k / Office  -  2100 / Parking  -  120 room / Hotel.  500 apartments remain the same on both.

Given the changes in the space numbers, there must be a revision to the design.  I would love to see new renderings of the project.

The office portion is going up by 30K which is roughly equivalent to one more floor although the footprint of the building could have changed too.

I also would like to see some kind of crown on top of the building.  And this would almost certainly push it higher than 200 Public Square which is only 11 feet taller than the flat roof design.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: brtshrcegr on January 26, 2016, 08:10:05 PM
Here's the Stark ad in SCT for those that are interested. Note too what does (and doesn't) get top billing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on January 26, 2016, 08:24:05 PM
Here's the Stark ad in SCT for those that are interested. Note too what does (and doesn't) get top billing.
Isn't NuCLEus the only project of those not under construction or mostly completed though? That's what I read out of that ad.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CbusTransit on January 26, 2016, 09:18:06 PM
It is also the largest picture...

I think we might be reading too much into an advertisement...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on January 26, 2016, 09:19:36 PM
If you look at it upside down you'll see satanic messages.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: roman totale XVII on January 26, 2016, 09:26:55 PM
Bottom of page = not built yet
Biggest picture = most interesting looking, plus need to build interest

BTW - I like the flat roof. Given all the 90 degree angles everywhere else in the design, some kind of crown would look very odd IMO
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on January 26, 2016, 09:53:48 PM
I agree that a crown might look odd. I think the best solution would be to have it taper on the top few floors.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: drewbvargo on January 26, 2016, 10:26:51 PM
Going back to the increase of office space, I do remember seeing an article saying that the planning commission approved a variance to the design that raised the office portion, thus raising the hotel/bridge. The reason for this was Stark wanted more space in case of high demand.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on January 27, 2016, 05:41:49 AM
Bottom of page = not built yet
Biggest picture = most interesting looking, plus need to build interest

BTW - I like the flat roof. Given all the 90 degree angles everywhere else in the design, some kind of crown would look very odd IMO

So do I.  This is one instance where a flat roof works given the design of the building.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on January 27, 2016, 07:25:06 AM
I would love to see some condos as part of the high rise, even if just a few.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on January 27, 2016, 07:27:47 AM
^i think that's the plan on the upper floors
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on January 27, 2016, 07:31:33 AM
^i think that's the plan on the upper floors
If it's changed, that would be awesome. The last I remember hearing is 500 apartments on the upper levels.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on January 27, 2016, 08:57:28 AM
Condos were always a part of the project at least as shown in the site plan.
Also regarding the top of the building , I usually like to stay with the architects original vision. If the NBBJ team can see it differently then I would like to see what they propose.  What I would like to see proposed is would be some kind of 'spire' that would reach maybe 150 ft with some kind of design element. This 'spire' would be substantial enough to be considered a part of the buildings overall height. It could also have a lighting component, think One World Trade Center.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: flee2thecleve14 on January 27, 2016, 09:55:59 AM
http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/cleveland/big-boom-for-downtown-cleveland-development/23531320 (http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/cleveland/big-boom-for-downtown-cleveland-development/23531320)

“As you wipe out the office space and convert it into apartments, you then all of a sudden tighten up the office market, which allows people to build new buildings," [Terry] Coyne [the Newmark Grubb Knight Frank vice chairman] adds.

Coyne says we see this happening in the Flats, and the stabilized market sparked the nuCLEus project. That is the proposed 50 plus story building, which will become the future home of apartments, condominiums, hotel rooms, offices, parking garage, restaurants and stores.

“NuCLEus already has some very well-known retail tenants that they have not announced yet."
Title: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on January 27, 2016, 10:00:25 AM
More interesting to me was the quote that they have well known retailers lined up already but not announced
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on January 27, 2016, 10:11:46 AM
I definitely won't take one of the apartments, but I WILL try to get one of the condos if it 3br or more. For-sale space, especially other than 0-1-2 bedrooms, is sorely lacking in the downtown market.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: roman totale XVII on January 27, 2016, 10:17:52 AM
Same here. I'll shortly be in the market for a 1 or 2 bedroom and Gateway/ PHS is my desired location.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: yanni_gogolak on January 27, 2016, 12:50:42 PM
Just because someone is willing to invest a substantial amount of money in your community doesn't give them immunity from scrutiny. In some respects, it demands more scrutiny because a greater investment can have a greater impact, both good and bad, on the community.

Telling a developer that is investing a substantial amount of money in the future of downtown that they need to add what is basically amounting to no return on investment "ornament" shows a lack of respect, IMO.
This design is very contemporary. Globally this typology gets away from anything ornamental that does not serve a purpose.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on January 27, 2016, 12:54:59 PM
Just because someone is willing to invest a substantial amount of money in your community doesn't give them immunity from scrutiny. In some respects, it demands more scrutiny because a greater investment can have a greater impact, both good and bad, on the community.

Telling a developer that is investing a substantial amount of money in the future of downtown that they need to add what is basically amounting to no return on investment "ornament" shows a lack of respect, IMO.
This design is very contemporary. Globally this typology gets away from anything ornamental that does not serve a purpose.

So essentially developers that invest substantial amounts of money are immune from design reviews?  IMO...not a sign of disrespect.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on January 27, 2016, 01:01:51 PM
So essentially developers that invest substantial amounts of money are immune from design reviews?  IMO...not a sign of disrespect.

I think there is some reluctance to accept the idea that government based design reviews are somehow downloaded with knowledge of "correct" architectural decisions.

These were buildings built by public entities:
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/Randigo/images-1_zpssvnbymuv.jpg) (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/Randigo/media/images-1_zpssvnbymuv.jpg.html)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/Randigo/images_zpspqyzjheq.jpg) (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/Randigo/media/images_zpspqyzjheq.jpg.html)


Some prefer a system where many different private actors make architectural decisions - that will lead to true diversity.  Because it is ultimately the private actor who is exposed to the risk or reward of the project, they will be motivated to present the most competitive design.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on January 27, 2016, 01:09:43 PM
Globally there aren't a lot of flat topped skyscrapers going up these days.  Just one recent example, the Great American tower in Cincinnati.  Pretty heavy on the ornamentation up top.

I like the current Nucleus design well enough, the irregular windows are cool, but the overall rectangular shape creates a very 60s-70s feel.  I don't think our skyline needs any more of that.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on January 27, 2016, 01:11:15 PM
^^Hey, I like Boston City Hall!  But I agree with the overall point. I'm fine with some objective ex ante standards regarding building bulk, massing, street edge, curb cuts, even materials in some cases, but I'm not a fan of giving city hall or some commission substantive input on pure aesthetics or other discretionary power without any standards. Literal design by committee.

To be honest, though, I don't know how much practical authority Cleveland's design review really has. I doubt we ever get to the point where they squelch a viable project. Either they give way due to political pressure from city hall or a developer just says "thanks for the input!" and ignores them. I'm not convinced a design review veto would survive court challenge.

EDITED to add:

Globally there aren't a lot of flat topped skyscrapers going up these days.  Just one recent example, the Great American tower in Cincinnati.  Pretty heavy on the ornamentation up top.

This is simply untrue. Just look around Curbed. Here are the skyscrapers currently underway in Chicago: http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2016/01/27/chicago-highrise-construction-january-2016.php
In Boston, these are the tallest buildings currently under construction or in the planning stage: http://boston.curbed.com/archives/2015/12/winthrop-square-boston.php

[these aren't cherry picked; just the two quickest examples I could find showing multiple ongoing projects]

There are certainly lots of new buildings with fancy crowns, but clean, modern boxes are still extremely common.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on January 27, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
I'm not convinced a design review veto would survive court challenge.

I'm pretty sure it would.  This is an everyday practice in most US communities.  Regulations are broadly legal unless they violate civil rights.  And cities aren't prone to holding regular open meetings of illegal commissions. 

Edited to add:

For what it's worth, here's a link to diagrams of planned or existing tall buildings where a rectangle doesn't appear till page 2.  While straight-up boxes do still get built, they're a lot less common than they used to be, and I don't believe they represent the future.

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=207
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on January 27, 2016, 01:24:39 PM
^Continued in the Cleveland zoning thread, as we (including me) drift further off topic: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25222.70.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 27, 2016, 01:28:15 PM
Telling a developer that is investing a substantial amount of money in the future of downtown that they need to add what is basically amounting to no return on investment "ornament" shows a lack of respect, IMO.
This design is very contemporary. Globally this typology gets away from anything ornamental that does not serve a purpose.

You're assuming I support an ornament on this building. I do not.

My comment wasn't even directed at this building, specifically. Rather it was in response to a comment posted in this thread that a city should have no say in how a developer, any developer, should spend their money. I disagree with that general premise.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: E Rocc on January 27, 2016, 02:43:21 PM
Telling a developer that is investing a substantial amount of money in the future of downtown that they need to add what is basically amounting to no return on investment "ornament" shows a lack of respect, IMO.
This design is very contemporary. Globally this typology gets away from anything ornamental that does not serve a purpose.

You're assuming I support an ornament on this building. I do not.

My comment wasn't even directed at this building, specifically. Rather it was in response to a comment posted in this thread that a city should have no say in how a developer, any developer, should spend their money. I disagree with that general premise.

I didn't say it, so I can't say if it was meant exactly this way.  But in principle, I would agree.

On the other hand, zoning gets a bad rap when it gets too restrictive, for good reason.  Those from the suburbs may think of it like a case where old Herb Klosteryob has been on the zoning committe of Etalement Heights for forty some years.  He personally doesn't like bright colored trim, and his son in law has an aluminum siding business, so vinyl siding and red awnings are banned.

Government "can" do a lot of things but that doesn't mean it should.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CleveFan on January 27, 2016, 07:11:17 PM
Way cool that my first post (about Jennifer Coleman's comments about Nucleus design "on top") prompted some insights from you heavy hitters in this forum.
I see that some of you like the flat roof of Nucleus - and others definitely don't like it.  What I've been noticing looking at those now-familiar sketches of Nucleus, released last January - is that in the sketches showing the complex from the ground up, without other higher buildings in it, the project seems totally modern, edgy and self-contained - it just seems to work so successfully on its own.  However, in the sketches that show Nucleus in the Cleveland skyline, from a bit more of a distance, there is a real contrast between it and the "elegance" of our skyline, particularly from the Terminal and Key Towers.  The Design Commission said they were concerned about "the dialogue between the towers" and I happen to think that's a great point.  I happen to love the modern architecture of Nucleus and I'm all in for it - but I do think the overall shape of the main tower of Nucleus has a stark (sorry) rectangular shape that feels "heavy" on top.  In its dimensions "above the bridge" its not dissimilar from the often-hated Justice Center, though it is a bit less bulky.  And I'm not saying that "a crown" is the answer - but I do wonder if the Nucleus tower was just a little less bulky (and I'd love to see that square footage transferred into some even higher floors) would the flat roof be any kind of concern?   I know it's a bit of an extreme comparison, but 432 Park Avenue, now the tallest building in Manhattan, has a flat roof and its dimensions are certainly dramatic and elegant.  In NY, Nucleus would "fit right in" because of the sheer number of buildings over 600 feet - in Cleveland, with only three towers over 600 (at present) the impact and aesthetic of the new tower will be monumental, for decades.  Of course, this is a great "problem" for us to have opinions about - the final design of a new skyscraper!  I do wonder if the Commission's recommendations mean that Stark has to come up with any revision - or if, in the end, they just get to have their opinion...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on January 27, 2016, 07:17:09 PM
^ Couldn't have said it better myself
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on January 27, 2016, 07:19:28 PM
Agreed, except for the example of 432 Park Ave. Looks like the non-working end of a chopstick.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: yanni_gogolak on January 28, 2016, 09:27:10 AM
Just because someone is willing to invest a substantial amount of money in your community doesn't give them immunity from scrutiny. In some respects, it demands more scrutiny because a greater investment can have a greater impact, both good and bad, on the community.

Telling a developer that is investing a substantial amount of money in the future of downtown that they need to add what is basically amounting to no return on investment "ornament" shows a lack of respect, IMO.
This design is very contemporary. Globally this typology gets away from anything ornamental that does not serve a purpose.

So essentially developers that invest substantial amounts of money are immune from design reviews?  IMO...not a sign of disrespect.

Surprised to hear this from you who I would assume understands the process.
Aesthetics is a personal opinion and cannot be subjected to right/wrong. "Design" review should be limited to the health, safety and welfare issues, while aesthetics should be opinions.

I really like the conculsion from this document in the Fordham Law Review by Kenneth Regan
You Can’t Build That Here: The Constitutionality of Aesthetic Zoning and Architectural Review

CONCLUSION

Although  a state's  police power must  admittedly encroach on  the rights of property ownership, that encroachment should be limited. Po­ lice power should not be extended beyond health, safety, moral, or gen­ eral welfare purposes to encompass solely aesthetic regulation. Aesthetics are inherently subjective and attempts  to legislate them infringe upon individual creative freedom.
Aesthetic regulation acquires more draconian overtones in the case of architectural  review, when boards can  withhold building permits for "improper" designs. Difficulty in formulating proper architectural stan­ dards only compounds the problem, because abuse of discretion is more likely with open-ended standards.  Such broad discretion provides the breeding ground for corruption.
Although some states have authorized zoning solely on aesthetic con­ siderations, this view is not wise. Freedom of choice and protection of property rights were among the values upon which this country was founded. These individual rights should not be sacrificed in the name of beauty. A more equitable alternative to aesthetic zoning is the imple­ mentation of covenants to address aesthetic concerns. Private, voluntary restrictions of property rights are preferable to excessive government reg­ ulation. Covenants adequately balance a property owner's interest with the aesthetic interests of the surrounding neighborhood, and should re­ place zoning based on aesthetics alone.


http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2882&context=flr
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on January 28, 2016, 10:43:02 AM
I don't have a picture handy, but do we remember what the BP building was supposed to look like, before they were asked to taper the top?  I for one am very glad the design was changed.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: roman totale XVII on January 28, 2016, 10:55:48 AM
Does anyone remember if there was this kind of criticism of the BP Building when it was proposed? Because I think that building has aged worse than the nuCLEus tower will.
One thing I've heard is they wanted it to be shorter that terminal tower, the original design had it being taller.

Not true. First, it was built as the headquarters of Standard Oil of Ohio (Sohio). Second, the design of the Sohio Building was changed after criticism that it was too massive and dominated Terminal Tower. That's not the same as tall. Instead, the upper corners of the Sohio Building were tapered without changing the height of the skyscraper. That would make it less dominant next to Terminal Tower, the CPC reasoned. I clipped this from the PD in 1982:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8675/16274909815_92db3d69c3_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Cleburger on January 28, 2016, 10:57:54 AM
I don't have a picture handy, but do we remember what the BP building was supposed to look like, before they were asked to taper the top?  I for one am very glad the design was changed.

I remembered this from a KJP post in the Cleveland Development thread a while back:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8675/16274909815_92db3d69c3_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Urbanophile on January 28, 2016, 11:00:22 AM
^ Wow, I had never seen that before. Thank god for design review!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ink on January 28, 2016, 11:02:13 AM
^^Regardless of Terminal Tower, I think the tapered design of Sohio is so much better than the original proposal. The change gives the building much more definition.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on January 28, 2016, 12:01:26 PM
Let's get back on topic, folks!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on February 08, 2016, 08:08:48 PM
Well in the Feb SCT magazine Stark has a full page ad for Nucleus. Last months ad also included his suburban projects. With RECON Vegas coming up in May let's hope Stark and some other developers that have things in the works are very busy.  The rumor dept. has Stark doing well in attracting retail tenants for Nucleus. We may not be very far away from learning about those.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on February 08, 2016, 08:51:32 PM
I read somewhere that as soon as the retail conference is over the names can be announced. Supposedly he already has some national tenants lined up
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on February 08, 2016, 09:21:26 PM
^that's a good ad. I hope comes to be!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on February 08, 2016, 09:43:31 PM
i heard it's not going to happen, at least not this year.  The hotel market is already getting soft in Cleveland after the flurry of hotels that were added recently and the office component is extremely aggressive.  Flats East Bank will be adding a 3rd phase sooner than Nucleus will be ready and Pinecrest will be ready as well - 2 nice new office developments competing for tenants. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: down4cle on February 08, 2016, 09:54:11 PM
The only way that it might happen is if NuCleus can land the Med Mutual consolidation.  But I agree that it probably doesn't break ground this year.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on February 08, 2016, 11:11:09 PM
The concept plan for nuCLEus has 500 residences, 200,000 square feet of offices and 150,000 square feet of retail. I don't know about you, but none of that seems too large to fill. Of the original concept, the hotel seemed the softest market for Stark to tackle and is probably the easiest to replace -- with residential, and residential would benefit his local/regional retail component more than any other use. The residential should be doable depending on the rent. The retail? Stark's expertise is in retail. EDIT: In fact, his original retail goal was 140,000 sq ft which he has since increased, perhaps due to his rumored success in signing national retailers.

Benesch will take about 66,500 sq ft of office space, and will be the anchor office tenant including building naming rights. The rest shouldn't be difficult to fill. The office component would have to be dramatically increased to accommodate Medical Mutual, which might have to play second fiddle to Benesch. I don't see that happening especially considering MM's desire for a high-profile presence. I also don't see MM playing second fiddle if MM occupies up to 10 times the office space as Benesch.

And is there even room for MM? If the five-story, horizontal hotel were dumped for office instead, that's still way too small of opened hole to accommodate MM. Stark would have to dramatically redesign the residential component of the project too, resulting in a potentially major change in projected purchasing power that Stark used in his marketing pitches to lure retail tenants. Building a retail mix is like building a brick wall. Take out a few bricks near the foundation and the rest falls and has to rebuilt all over again. Stark isn't likely to do that.

Losing the hotel probably isn't a big loss for Stark's prospective  retailer mix (unless he's got a destination retailer or two in mind). He could probably make that up with residential that would actually boost his retail. But if a Stark has a deal in place with a unique hotelier and his projected residential rents aren't much higher than what's being offered at The 9, any lender familiar with the Cleveland market and its trendlines would sign off on the financing for this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ClevelandBrowns on February 09, 2016, 01:39:59 AM
i heard it's not going to happen, at least not this year.  The hotel market is already getting soft in Cleveland after the flurry of hotels that were added recently and the office component is extremely aggressive.  Flats East Bank will be adding a 3rd phase sooner than Nucleus will be ready and Pinecrest will be ready as well - 2 nice new office developments competing for tenants.
So what are your sources to back up your comments that this project is not happening? I mean you come across as very high school by not being specific. Also your other comments are very generalized, yeah so what other projects are coming on line, so what? Can you point to actual facts that make this project not feasible? I mean no large scale project is easy but you make it seem like you have inside information so give it up or say it's just your opinion.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on February 09, 2016, 04:48:54 AM
^ I think speaking generally for those of us that are able to provide feedback based on sources... It's not like we can come on here and spill every aching detail about a project or what we hear. There are confidentiality agreements and so on and so forth. Calling someone "high schoolish" because they will not say their sources or divulge a ton of detail is short sighted and selfish... The general perception in the market is that this project still has a long ways to go before they break ground, if it happens as designed. We've discussed that at length on here, at least what we can say publicaly. I think we all hope that this project is built, but there are rumblings in the market about the viability based on whatever - cost, feasibility, financing, etc...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MD88PILOT on February 09, 2016, 05:52:16 AM
Actually, when it comes to rumors and sources, it's quite often that everyone is right to a certain degree.  My brother is a managing director at an investment bank in NYC.  He has helped structure some interesting projects around the world.  Projects such as Nucleus go through many phases and financing options, all of which can appear to kill it or save it any one time.  Remember FEB 10 years ago?  There are so many moving parts in these deals each of which can be an wrench in the works.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: GOLF38 on February 09, 2016, 06:57:12 AM
I thought the law firm was to be moving in 2018, if they do not start till after r.n.c. I do not know how they are going to do site work and build 19 story building with a 4 or 5
 story hotel on top in a little more than 2 years. Thou I really hope this project goes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on February 09, 2016, 07:56:19 AM
Even though Gottaplan and I frequently disagree on politics, he has good sources in the real estate development industry and I respect his information.

Because of the proposed location of the office component of this development, I can see that portion completed first while the interior work is being done on hotel and the steel is still being raised for the 54-story tower.

EDIT: as for timing, environmental abatement prior to demolition of the old county administration building for the Hilton hotel tower began in January 2014. Stark said he will start demolitions for nuCLEus after the RNC. So it's plausible that the smaller office portion could be completed by mid- to late-2018.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on February 09, 2016, 08:16:48 AM
^ I think speaking generally for those of us that are able to provide feedback based on sources... It's not like we can come on here and spill every aching detail about a project or what we hear. There are confidentiality agreements and so on and so forth. Calling someone "high schoolish" because they will not say their sources or divulge a ton of detail is short sighted and selfish... The general perception in the market is that this project still has a long ways to go before they break ground, if it happens as designed. We've discussed that at length on here, at least what we can say publicaly. I think we all hope that this project is built, but there are rumblings in the market about the viability based on whatever - cost, feasibility, financing, etc...

My sources are chief brokers in commercial real estate downtown and executives at Walsh construction. 

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on February 09, 2016, 08:25:57 AM
Does the delay affect the entire development or the vertical, non-retail/parking portion?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on February 09, 2016, 11:05:40 AM
Just as an interesting note from the SCT ad, this is the first time the ad has ever indicated a groundbreaking date- "Construction Starting 2016". So that's something. I know Stark likes the big announcements and talks about his love for downtown but up to this point has proven nothing but being a suburban developer. And he worries me because he would think nothing of going after Medical Mutual as a fit for Crocker Park.  But I think it's his son that is driving Nucleus .
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: smith on February 09, 2016, 11:12:01 AM
What is SCT?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on February 09, 2016, 11:19:06 AM
^ Industry mag -  Shopping Center Today.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on February 09, 2016, 02:27:32 PM
Not to be a Debbie downer but there was a sign up at Flats East Bank back in 2008... Coming in 2009.   Also, how many of you remember the failed Marous Development "District Park" on West 9th in early 2000's...   They had a website, leasig office, taking deposits, etc
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MayDay on February 09, 2016, 03:00:40 PM
... and the model showing all three phases, which probably cost a pretty penny. Not speaking on behalf of everyone but plenty of forumers have been following development in Cleveland for a long time; I think it's premature to be either boosterish *or* a downer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: math on February 09, 2016, 03:40:06 PM
That model is nicer than my apartment.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on February 09, 2016, 03:48:20 PM
^i wish those would come back. I'm in the market for a new apartment or condo 😁 But I digress...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on February 09, 2016, 04:31:36 PM
District Park was built, It just moved. Its now called Battery Park. Marous Brothers/Vintage Development...same thing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on February 09, 2016, 04:37:29 PM
^i wish those would come back. I'm in the market for a new apartment or condo 😁 But I digress...

And the parking lot it was slated to be built on has been for sale for YEARS. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: down4cle on February 09, 2016, 04:47:49 PM
Isn't that parking lot basically the foundation of a building too?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: brtshrcegr on February 09, 2016, 05:18:03 PM
District Park was built, It just moved. Its now called Battery Park. Marous Brothers/Vintage Development...same thing.

And if I recall correctly, the ultimate reason given for the suspension of development was a large increase in the price of structural steel from when the project was first proposed. Seems that with steel currently being relatively weak, and the downtown market being that much more robust than in the mid- to late 2000, District Park could be viable again for Marous, or another developer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on February 09, 2016, 05:47:59 PM
^yes and ^^yes but that's a topic for the warehouse thread
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: JohnSummit on February 10, 2016, 07:30:34 PM
Back to the comments regarding the timing of construction start, I seem to remember in the initial flurry of stories about Nucleus where Stark said something to the effect that the aggressive timeline was one of the underpinnings of the rationale for this project.  Didn't they even say some of it, perhaps the parking and retail, could be open in time for the RNC?  This tells me at the very least, things are taking longer than first envisioned.  At worst, it was a lot of hype designed to build momentum for an overly ambitious project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ytown2ctown on February 12, 2016, 07:01:10 PM
Talked to some friends with inside knowledge today, and they say that this is a no go :(
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on February 12, 2016, 07:09:10 PM
Talked to some friends with inside knowledge today, and they say that this is a no go :(

This, if true, is the buzz kill of the decade.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on February 12, 2016, 07:09:53 PM
How the heck does this go from "he has national retailers already committed" to this is a no go so quickly. More clarity please
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YO to the CLE on February 12, 2016, 07:33:22 PM
Yeah seriously!? Do they maybe mean that it's not a no-go this year perhaps? Does anyone have any clue what stark has going on?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on February 12, 2016, 08:10:32 PM
I'd put about zero faith in anything not directly from Stark. People "in the know" quite often claim things are going downhill because it's a fantastic talking point.

None of us know. Not even our sources, no matter how close to the project they are. The only people who know are Stark and the people he's asking for money from. Everything else is just hearsay and filtered through people's perspectives and biases.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on February 12, 2016, 08:23:59 PM
How the heck does this go from "he has national retailers already committed" to this is a no go so quickly. More clarity please

Commitments from national retailers doesn't mean a thing.  Probably a non binding letter of intent.  Plenty of "outs" for both parties
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on February 12, 2016, 08:28:05 PM
I'd put about zero faith in anything not directly from Stark. People "in the know" quite often claim things are going downhill because it's a fantastic talking point.

None of us know. Not even our sources, no matter how close to the project they are. The only people who know are Stark and the people he's asking for money from. Everything else is just hearsay and filtered through people's perspectives and biases.

Not sure I'd put any faith in something directly from Stark either.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on February 12, 2016, 08:29:20 PM
I'd put about zero faith in anything not directly from Stark. People "in the know" quite often claim things are going downhill because it's a fantastic talking point.

None of us know. Not even our sources, no matter how close to the project they are. The only people who know are Stark and the people he's asking for money from. Everything else is just hearsay and filtered through people's perspectives and biases.

Not sure I'd put any faith in something directly from Stark either.

Haha, true. But still, the point is that unless it's coming from someone official it's more or less useless information as much as we all love to speculate and analyze our sources' information, myself included.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on February 12, 2016, 08:51:43 PM
Gottaplan's comments concern me more. He has more experience in local development circles. But it's best to wait for something official.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: GOLF38 on February 12, 2016, 10:19:52 PM
I believe nothing going to be built, in November 2014 Stark said this is going to be fast track jan. or feb of 2015 we will start demo of site and have parking garage done for r.n.c, than I heard aug of 2015 for site work nothing now it feb 2016 still nothing, I e-mailed someone involved with law firm taking 66,500 sq ft  of the office tower and they said
 they are still in but not sure about stark, if I was a builder and there was a 1,800 waiting list for apartments plus I had a tenant that was taking 4 or 5 floors of my building, I would not be waiting for the r.n.c I be building, same goes for 515 Euclid why wait. To tell you the truth I believe most of what we here is to be built downtown will never happen,
 that just the way Cleveland rolls, everytime something good is talked about that's all it is is talk. It's great that they fixed up all the old building"s but a game changer like nucleus never.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on February 12, 2016, 10:32:48 PM
I understand it's hard to shake old perceptions, but much of what has been proposed since the recession has been built or is under construction in Cleveland. Perhaps being a pessimist serves as a shield from revisiting deep disappointments experienced in the past. Maybe it's best not to get emotionally invested in things over which you have no control.

Stark has talked a good game downtown before and after the recession but has yet to produce. But consider this... Stark has invested 10s of millions of dollars downtown this time, so I think he has a strong motivation to produce something tangible even if it isn't the rendering that currently appears in his marketing materials. So don't head for the I-480 bridge yet (or at all). We're in a very different time in the history of U.S. cities in general and Cleveland in particular.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on February 12, 2016, 10:35:21 PM
Unless someone has some real solid first hand knowledge can we stop with the speculation and rumors?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MikeyB440 on March 24, 2016, 08:02:06 AM
Did anyone else notice that in the State of Downtown report that DCA put out doesn't reference hotel rooms for nuCLEus? They talk about planned projects on page 8 and mention 279 hotel rooms in the former Huntington building (925 Euclid) but don't mention any for nuCLEus...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: punch on March 24, 2016, 10:25:01 AM
The project can roughly be divided into two phases, 1, parking structure with groud floor retail, and the second being the tower with hotel and everything else.

Just my personal opinion, if they did the first phase and delayed the second, I would still be delighted with the project. 

We all know there is going to be competition for tenents in a new office building.  There is a market for at least one new tower, but that does not mean that Stark's plan will be the winning one. (for now)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MikeyB440 on March 24, 2016, 10:59:53 AM
They reference 500 apartments though which I would assume they're taking the tower into account.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on April 04, 2016, 01:06:56 PM
Talmer Bank and Trust which according to the sign on the Stark property as providing financing for the Nucleus project is merging with Chemical Bank.  Wonder if this is having any effect as Stark continues to seek financing. The Chemical Bank board will now call the shots. Could be good could be bad.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/michigan/2016/01/26/talmer-bank-chemical-bank/79340328/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on April 06, 2016, 11:51:05 AM
Noticed this on Eventbrite. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160406/211aa136e89772e93b78cb6df13f070e.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160406/04e0e3e015a133301be4b90143533498.jpg)
Happening tomorrow at Red
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on April 06, 2016, 11:54:37 AM
^Good grab... interesting.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MikeyB440 on April 06, 2016, 11:59:26 AM
^^Now the apartments went down by 50 and again no mention of the hotel? Interesting...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: smith on April 06, 2016, 12:08:47 PM
I'll be there too.  Should be an interesting presentation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on April 06, 2016, 12:17:51 PM
^^Now the apartments went down by 50 and again no mention of the hotel? Interesting...

From January 2015: "The entire nuCLEus project could include 500 residences, 1,600 parking spaces, 200,000 square feet of offices and 140,000 square feet of retail, plus the hotel"

Doesn't sound too much different to me?  Just no mention of the Hotel.

I won't be able to attend, hopefully someone you can fill us in!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MikeyB440 on April 06, 2016, 12:48:29 PM
^^Now the apartments went down by 50 and again no mention of the hotel? Interesting...

From January 2015: "The entire nuCLEus project could include 500 residences, 1,600 parking spaces, 200,000 square feet of offices and 140,000 square feet of retail, plus the hotel"

Doesn't sound too much different to me?  Just no mention of the Hotel.

I won't be able to attend, hopefully someone you can fill us in!

A subtraction of 75 apartments and 70,000 SF of office space as well as eliminating the hotel seems like a pretty big reduction to me. They did add 10,000 SF of retail and some parking spots but it’s still a net loss of space. Seems like maybe the scale of the building is going to decrease. Just speculation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on April 06, 2016, 12:54:13 PM
A loss of 75 apartments could mean nothing more than them finalizing the mix of unit sizes and finding larger units would be more profitable long-term over a higher unit count. For all we know those 425 units represent an increase in residential area over their original estimate of 500 units.

It could also mean that that prediction was optimistic and when design actually was worked through thoroughly they found they really only had room for 425 units in their design.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on April 06, 2016, 01:28:37 PM
Also some of the apts were to be for sale (condos). I hope that that is still in the mix. I would readily buy a place downtown at $2k/month, but will definitely not pay that in rent. buyers are investing in the longer term to the downtown neighborhood than are renters.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PoshSteve on April 06, 2016, 05:37:25 PM
Hopefully the reduction in number of units means adding in some extra 3 bedroom units. Even though I personally don't need that many bedrooms, I see the lack of them downtown driving out a whole segment of current and potential residents.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CleveFan on April 06, 2016, 06:56:23 PM
Big picture - relief!  There was some speculation in this forum that the project might not happen at all - that rumor seems now to be
 put to rest - As were some others, I'm also wondering about the reduction by 70,000 SF of office space.  The Stark Enterprise website still had
the old numbers (200,000sq office space) up as of today, April 6.  I would think the CoreNet presentation is the updated, correct number.
And if a hotel is no longer part of it- seems it would be a significant downsizing in the height and mass of Nucleus.  Very curious to see
if a new design is revealed at the presentation.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on April 06, 2016, 11:15:42 PM
Based on a reliable source I heard from today, the hotel is still part of the project (despite it not being in the Corenet description above).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on April 07, 2016, 07:55:13 AM
I thought we were holding off posting any rumors in this thread...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on April 07, 2016, 08:26:24 AM
Really? then what makes this board more insightful than reading a press release or a news story?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: plinth857 on April 07, 2016, 08:47:46 AM
Really? then what makes this board more insightful than reading a press release or a news story?

Agreed... not to mention interesting as well.  Once you start hearing news/plans from contractors, then real things are getting planned.  I know an HVAC contractor has already been contacted about this project and Weston Citymark.  The HVAC guy seems to think that Citymark will start first, though he believes both projects are a definite.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MikeyB440 on April 08, 2016, 10:01:38 AM
Any updates from the meeting last night?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: smith on April 08, 2016, 11:27:28 AM
I'm not fully aware of everything that has been announced, but I don't think anything new was unveiled.  That said, here are my notes.  I don't recall the name of the presenter, but it was a guy I'd say in his mid 30s, so obviously not Bob Stark.  He did a good job.  This is all to the best of my recollection / note taking, so please forgive me if I got anything wrong.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ChiCleveKid on April 08, 2016, 11:32:28 AM
Nice work on the notes!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MikeyB440 on April 08, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
Thanks for the updates!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on April 08, 2016, 11:55:56 AM
Sweet.  Would be a huge bummer to lose the balconies though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hootenany on April 08, 2016, 12:10:30 PM
I've always found that I'm, personally, just as happy with a large french balcony setup.  I hope they consider something like this as an alternative.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on April 08, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
It sounds like the scale/design of the building is obviously still being developed, but isn't a huge change from what has been presented before. Which is great.

Still holding off full excitement, but this is sounding more and more like it will quickly become reality.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on April 08, 2016, 01:40:09 PM
^Unfortunately, I feel like I've been conditioned by a couple decades of fizzled plans to hold off on excitement till I see shovels in the ground.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on April 08, 2016, 01:45:11 PM
Which is always a good plan. Things can change in a heartbeat. Even having shovels in the ground isn't a sure bet. Just ask Chicago how they feel about major projects seeming like sure bets at the beginning of 2008.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on April 08, 2016, 01:50:56 PM
April 6:
Quote from: pugu
Based on a reliable source I heard from today, the hotel is still part of the project (despite it not being in the Corenet description above).


April 8:
Quote from: smith
Residential - said the top 5 (I think) floors are being underwritten as apartments, but they'd like to sell as condos if market will bear....Hotel operator is Olympia out of Portland ME

Good to hear! We need more for-sale housing Downtown. Thanks for the summary. And it looks like we got confirmation on the hotel aspect.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: smith on April 08, 2016, 01:59:36 PM
I'd say it really does seem like this will become a reality. 
Sweet.  Would be a huge bummer to lose the balconies though.

As to the residential finishes and balcony issue - he said the top floors if they are condos the buyers would essentially be given an allowance for their improvements and they could obviously go beyond that if they want to pay more.  He said if those condos didn't have balconies and a buyer wanted one, they would let them "move back" the exterior wall to create outdoor space - i.e. give up inside space for outside space. 

As to the apartments, they haven't designed the finishes on them yet.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PHS14 on April 08, 2016, 02:20:58 PM
April 6:
Quote from: pugu
Based on a reliable source I heard from today, the hotel is still part of the project (despite it not being in the Corenet description above).


April 8:
Quote from: smith
Residential - said the top 5 (I think) floors are being underwritten as apartments, but they'd like to sell as condos if market will bear....Hotel operator is Olympia out of Portland ME

Good to hear! We need more for-sale housing Downtown. Thanks for the summary. And it looks like we got confirmation on the hotel aspect.

Wonder why no ''pre-construction'' sales for these condos.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on April 08, 2016, 02:29:53 PM
^Unfortunately, I feel like I've been conditioned by a couple decades of fizzled plans to hold off on excitement till I see shovels in the ground.

Yep. While I enjoy seeing/reading plans, I withhold a greater excitement until I see shovels in the ground. But it's still fun debating the plans and I don't get too disappointed when they don't pan out. It's not my money! :)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on April 08, 2016, 03:03:54 PM
Where there any updated pictures of the Nucleus project plans at the meeting?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: smith on April 08, 2016, 03:56:00 PM
^Unfortunately, I feel like I've been conditioned by a couple decades of fizzled plans to hold off on excitement till I see shovels in the ground.

Yep. While I enjoy seeing/reading plans, I withhold a greater excitement until I see shovels in the ground. But it's still fun debating the plans and I don't get too disappointed when they don't pan out. It's not my money! :)

They've certainly spent A LOT of money so far!

Where there any updated pictures of the Nucleus project plans at the meeting?

Not sure as I don't know that I've seen everything.  He had a PowerPoint that he went through pretty quickly - I think the stacking plan may have been dated late 2015.  They did have a nice rendering or two of the outdoor space, particularly for the residents who will have their own pool and dedicated green space, I think above the garage.  Not sure if that has been shown or not.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clevecane on April 08, 2016, 06:24:47 PM
I've never heard of ABS Parking, could it be ABM?

Interesting about the hotel operator. Their website has the following brands:

LVX Hotels sounds awesome  :-D
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: msa1092 on April 09, 2016, 09:22:27 AM
A bit disappointed that the retail has been a tough sell, but not entirely surprised. Does national restaurant mean chain restaurant?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: plinth857 on April 09, 2016, 10:43:16 AM
A bit disappointed that the retail has been a tough sell, but not entirely surprised. Does national restaurant mean chain restaurant?

Possibly, but I would put my money on something "different."  I heard that they are thinking of putting in a Pappadeaux's in there, which is a chain, but definitely not something around here (closest one is in Cincinnati). 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: 327 on April 09, 2016, 10:46:06 AM
"Tough sell" could mean no demand, or it could mean wrong price point, the latter being less absolute and more likely.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jborger on April 11, 2016, 11:39:44 AM
I can understand how national restaurants are needed for national retailers to be interest. It just gives them more of an apples to apples comparison. "Well, we have a store next to National Restaurant in Pittsburgh and National Restaurant is opening in Cleveland, so perhaps we should open there as well." No one wants to be the guinea pig.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: smith on April 11, 2016, 11:55:42 AM
I can understand how national restaurants are needed for national retailers to be interest. It just gives them more of an apples to apples comparison. "Well, we have a store next to National Restaurant in Pittsburgh and National Restaurant is opening in Cleveland, so perhaps we should open there as well." No one wants to be the guinea pig.

Exactly - the guy from Stark talked about how a retailer can look at an national restaurant like Yardhouse (pretty sure he said Yardhouse isn't a tenant) and say "ok, we know that Yardhouse does $X million a year typically in sales, so that means we can look at this location" where they can't look to say E 4th and know what volume the local restaurants do.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on May 15, 2016, 08:25:26 AM
Cleveland apartments rising at 'insane' rate

• nuCLEus, a mixed-use tower now planned for 48 stories instead of 51, proposed by Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments of Solon, will begin by year-end and is forecast for completion by 2018.

It includes 500 apartments and six floors of build-to-suit condos. Look for suites to hit the market in 2018.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160515/NEWS/160519863/cleveland-apartments-rising-at-insane-rate


Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mov2Ohio on May 15, 2016, 09:41:27 AM
I had heard that they are very close to completing all of their financing for this project, which shocked me.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sky on May 15, 2016, 12:25:57 PM
That shocks me too.  I was expecting a massive scaling back and no groundbreaking for years.  Is your source credible?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on May 15, 2016, 12:42:00 PM
The Crains article indicated breaking ground by end of year and the only scale back mentioned was 49 floors instead of whatever it had been. 52?


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Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PoshSteve on May 15, 2016, 01:03:58 PM
I'm very happy to see the article still confirming there are plans to have for sale units. I would expect those units to be some of the priciest in the city, if not the region.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CleveFan on May 15, 2016, 08:40:00 PM
Interesting that news of a possible design change for Nucleus comes out, sort of happenstance, in the Crains article - the original plan for Nucleus was actually 54 stories and 647 feet tall (not 52) and if its true that the new design is 48 stories, it could mean a change in height of about 72 feet, based on the number of floors and height originally proposed.  Great to read that there will be residential units for sale. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ArtMasterCLE on May 15, 2016, 10:11:41 PM
I agree that the possible design change is an interesting revelation, CleveFan. But, because of the other possible errors in the article (previous height of 52 stories), I will withhold any reaction until Stark releases an official statement outlining the project in its current form. Taking the aforementioned errors into account, there is also the possibility that the reporter was told that there will be 48 floors containing apartments topped by an additional 6 floors of build-to-order condos, which would total 54 stories as originally presented.

Just something to consider.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on May 29, 2016, 09:56:53 AM
No news. Just a pic I found of the nuCLEus display at @recon16
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on May 29, 2016, 11:22:29 AM
I was about to say that the "bridge building" is no longer in the plan, but you can see it if you look hard enough.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jbee1982 on May 29, 2016, 11:40:11 AM
Yes, I missed the bridge. It's in the same spot, just not highlighted in blue light. The previous poster is right. It IS hard to see.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: McLovin on May 29, 2016, 03:12:07 PM
From that angle it seems the same height as 200 P.S

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Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jeremyck01 on May 29, 2016, 04:56:58 PM
I was about to say that the "bridge building" is no longer in the plan, but you can see it if you look hard enough.

I thought the bridge part is where the hotel was going to be.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on May 29, 2016, 05:12:56 PM
I was about to say that the "bridge building" is no longer in the plan, but you can see it if you look hard enough.

I thought the bridge part is where the hotel was going to be.

Probably. But in a redesign, it could be relocated anywhere.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on June 15, 2016, 09:18:45 AM
Stark Enterprises explores auction of downtown Cleveland headquarters building (photos)

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Stark Enterprises, a downtown developer with high-rise projects in the hopper, is trying to sell its more modest headquarters office building through an online auction.

The Ten-X Commercial website is offering up the property, at 1350 W. Third St., with an undisclosed minimum dollar amount in mind. Bidding will start at $850,000 on July 11, and the auction is scheduled to end July 13.

Stark doesn't have to sell - and won't, necessarily, if the price isn't right. But the company, with 60 downtown workers and twice that number in other locations, has outgrown its Warehouse District digs and has decided to test the market.


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2016/06/stark_enterprises_explores_auc.html
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on June 15, 2016, 09:31:42 AM
It seems odd that Weston wouldn't just buy this and tear it down so their project can go to the sidewalk.  Its such a small footprint...  We will see!  I think this is a good sign for NuCleus... with all the doubt surrounding that project hopefully we see something soon as well as on the Weston project.

Side note... I know this doesn't belong here but I was looking at the street view on this... does anyone know if there is ANY plan to fix up the hideous 55 Public Sq. garage right across from Stark's building?  That along with the fact that theres a surface lot wedged right into the corner AND the prison on the other corner makes this intersection pretty awful.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on June 15, 2016, 10:01:53 AM
It seems odd that Weston wouldn't just buy this and tear it down so their project can go to the sidewalk.  Its such a small footprint...  We will see!

Aw, I think this little building has a lot of character! I'd like to see them build around it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on June 15, 2016, 11:07:08 AM
nuCLEus is perpetually 6 months away from groundbreaking.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: seicer on June 15, 2016, 11:24:43 AM
I think it had a lot of character. I asked this on Cleveland.com but I'm wondering how much of the facade is intact from its original construction.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jam40jeff on June 15, 2016, 11:47:06 AM
nuCLEus is perpetually 6 months away from groundbreaking.

Pesht II?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ASPhotoman on June 20, 2016, 03:45:48 PM
New branding?

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: tj111 on June 20, 2016, 04:04:21 PM
New branding?

Would seem to indicate that whatever changes they've made to the building design they at least kept the bridge concept in there, which is awesome.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: CleveFan on June 25, 2016, 02:12:05 PM
I'm feeling optimistic - we won the NBA Championship - anything is possible! - even that Nucleus becomes reality!  And whatever downsizing may be occurring, from the bits and pieces we're hearing,  it might be the best thing that could happen.  I'd love to see the essence of the Nucleus design maintained with a less bulk-like rectangular box dominating the skyline.  A thinner tower with the same basic design (and height) would solve the problem - with or without the flat roof aesthetic discussed some months earlier in this forum.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on June 25, 2016, 02:23:20 PM
If only championships and real estate development were connected -- Cleveland would surely benefit. But the Cavs (or Monsters) winning won't translate into new construction for Stark. It won't even impact Gilbert who owns both championship teams. He's smart enough to know you keep emotions out of business decisions. You don't become a billionaire by reacting.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Enginerd on June 25, 2016, 02:45:52 PM
(http://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1408377530i/10842791._SX540_.gif)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: inlovewithCLE on June 25, 2016, 09:31:40 PM
If only championships and real estate development were connected -- Cleveland would surely benefit. But the Cavs (or Monsters) winning won't translate into new construction for Stark. It won't even impact Gilbert who owns both championship teams. He's smart enough to know you keep emotions out of business decisions. You don't become a billionaire by reacting.

There's always one. Lol. Sheesh. Bah humbug I guess
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on June 26, 2016, 02:00:36 PM
Ground breaking is on track for November.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: PHS14 on June 26, 2016, 02:22:19 PM
Ground breaking is on track for November.

Hope so.  This project needs to get going ASAP.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on June 26, 2016, 02:35:54 PM
@gottaplan  If I recall you have been one of the least confident this project would ever move forward.  So coming from you this is a good sign. Can you share what you learned?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on June 26, 2016, 04:35:28 PM
There's always one. Lol. Sheesh. Bah humbug I guess

OK, I'm sorry. Gilbert will abandon his business sense and ignore market fundamentals and instead dance through the city throwing C-notes wildly into the air at any developer who utters "Cavs championship" to him.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on June 26, 2016, 08:24:56 PM
@gottaplan  If I recall you have been one of the least confident this project would ever move forward.  So coming from you this is a good sign. Can you share what you learned?

Speaking with the construction folks from Walsh that are building the tower.  They are moving full speed ahead.   I still think the Stark team will have a major uphill battle to find office tenants, deal with a softening hotel market and lease apartments at a rate even higher than FEB or the Nine...   Certainly not rooting against it though, it's very exciting
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on June 26, 2016, 10:34:14 PM
OK  thanks. The Nov start date seems to coincide with what @smith reported in April.
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,29504.msg798347.html#msg798347

From that post it seems that they are prepared for a 2 year absorption rate, that certainly sounds doable.  As for the retail they probably will be competing with Bedrock/Tower City.  I believe the market is there for the residential, office component.  The hotel operator is the same operator as for Crocker Park,  I don't think we will see anything that upscale.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on June 27, 2016, 08:14:44 AM
I actually think the office component is the weakest demand.  Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf.  Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc.  And look at the vacancies they all still have.  Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf.  There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents.  Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason.  Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants...   where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from?  A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many.  It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Enginerd on June 27, 2016, 08:27:39 AM
I actually think the office component is the weakest demand.  Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf.  Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc.  And look at the vacancies they all still have.  Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf.  There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents.  Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason.  Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants...   where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from?  A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many.  It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking....

I'm not sure if this was mentioned in the lakefront thread, but Dick Pace said that he has one tenant relocating from another location Downtown, and is actively recruiting companies from out of state. He has one HQ that is close to being secured...but I can't remember if that is the company already in downtown or not.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on June 27, 2016, 08:44:15 AM
I actually think the office component is the weakest demand.  Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf.  Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc.  And look at the vacancies they all still have.  Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf.  There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents.  Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason.  Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants...   where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from?  A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many.  It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking....

Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on June 27, 2016, 09:06:56 AM
I actually think the office component is the weakest demand.  Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf.  Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc.  And look at the vacancies they all still have.  Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf.  There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents.  Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason.  Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants...   where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from?  A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many.  It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking....

Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already? 

Not sure what the total sf of these two groups would be or how much total sf they are trying to fill.  Keep in mind, most firms are consolidating/reducing sf by about 30% when they make a move like this...   more open work stations, fewer private offices, more huddle rooms...  more technology, less file storage....
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Clefan98 on June 27, 2016, 09:21:31 AM
I actually think the office component is the weakest demand.  Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf.  Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc.  And look at the vacancies they all still have.  Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf.  There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents.  Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason.  Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants...   where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from?  A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many.  It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking....

Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already? 

Not sure what the total sf of these two groups would be or how much total sf they are trying to fill.  Keep in mind, most firms are consolidating/reducing sf by about 30% when they make a move like this...   more open work stations, fewer private offices, more huddle rooms...  more technology, less file storage....
From what I've read, it looks like there's only 200k of total office space available at nuCLEus.  Stark is going to lease 25k and Benesch has committed to around 70k.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: inlovewithCLE on June 27, 2016, 11:01:11 AM
There's always one. Lol. Sheesh. Bah humbug I guess

OK, I'm sorry. Gilbert will abandon his business sense and ignore market fundamentals and instead dance through the city throwing C-notes wildly into the air at any developer who utters "Cavs championship" to him.

Don't be that guy.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on June 27, 2016, 11:13:25 AM

Don't be that guy.

Want me to lie to you instead, by telling you that Cleveland's office market is dynamic? Or that a sports team's performance actually has some impact on the office market? Sorry, it doesn't. They're unrelated.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on June 27, 2016, 11:53:21 AM
Stop.  Both of you.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: math on June 27, 2016, 12:51:13 PM
I'm hearing rumblings that if the Indians make the post-season construction will start on the Public Square parking lot. Let's go Tribe!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on June 27, 2016, 12:59:41 PM
I actually think the office component is the weakest demand.  Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf.  Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc.  And look at the vacancies they all still have.  Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf.  There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents.  Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason.  Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants...   where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from?  A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many.  It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking....

Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already? 

Not sure what the total sf of these two groups would be or how much total sf they are trying to fill.  Keep in mind, most firms are consolidating/reducing sf by about 30% when they make a move like this...   more open work stations, fewer private offices, more huddle rooms...  more technology, less file storage....
From what I've read, it looks like there's only 200k of total office space available at nuCLEus.  Stark is going to lease 25k and Benesch has committed to around 70k.   

Is anyone on this board connected at the building department?  It would be interesting to see when the first set of plans are submitted for plan review, shell package, demo/site work, etc.  That would give a pretty good indication of how real it is.  And it should probably happen by end of the summer.  That parking garage will close and get torn down as will Mr. Alberts building at 618 Prospect.  Start looking for "going out of business" or moving signs there by end of summer
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on June 27, 2016, 01:06:16 PM
Is anyone on this board connected at the building department?  It would be interesting to see when the first set of plans are submitted for plan review, shell package, demo/site work, etc.  That would give a pretty good indication of how real it is.  And it should probably happen by end of the summer.  That parking garage will close and get torn down as will Mr. Alberts building at 618 Prospect.  Start looking for "going out of business" or moving signs there by end of summer
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sizzlinbeef on June 27, 2016, 02:03:29 PM
Mr. Alberts building at 618 Prospect.  Start looking for "going out of business" or moving signs there by end of summer

I think the lack of a going out of business sign in Mr. Alberts would be more indicative of a change.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: brtshrcegr on July 07, 2016, 03:53:42 PM
If only championships and real estate development were connected -- Cleveland would surely benefit. But the Cavs (or Monsters) winning won't translate into new construction for Stark. It won't even impact Gilbert who owns both championship teams. He's smart enough to know you keep emotions out of business decisions. You don't become a billionaire by reacting.

Perhaps that's not such a crazy idea as one might think? I leave this, without comment  :wink:

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1822095651950218499 (https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1822095651950218499)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: lafont on July 10, 2016, 01:27:09 PM
That's almost a joke, regarding Mr. Albert's....  That joint has had "going out of business" sales signs in its windows on and off for years!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on July 22, 2016, 08:16:52 PM
The RNC is over now. When is ground breaking of this project? Ugh I cannot wait
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on July 22, 2016, 09:01:41 PM
Obviously Stark can't break ground for nucleus if he hasn't been through the approvals process yet. And I couldn't remember what if any elements he has submitted for approval this far. So I looked back through this thread and found the following....

No graphics posted on this yet.....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2015/01162015/DRC2015_1_15.pdf

Downtown/Flats
Design Review Agenda
Thursday January 15th, 2015
Cleveland City Hall
Room 514

*Schematic Design Approval
3. Project: DF2014-110 nuCLEus
Project Address: 320-630 Prospect Avenue
Project Representative: Steven H. Coven, Stark Enterprises, Inc.;
*Denotes agenda item will also appear before the Cleveland City Planning Commission the
following day, Friday, January 16th, 2015.

Here's the document being submitted to the city review committee today. 


www.documentcloud.org/documents/1502590-20150113-city-stark-comments.html#document/p1

And so begins the formal approvals process (ie: not conceptual presentations)....

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2015/crr03-30-2015.pdf

Board of Zoning Appeals

MONDAY MARCH 30, 2015

9:30
Calendar No. 15-33: 420 through 630 Prospect
& 601 through 611 Huron Ave.
Ward 3
Joe Cimperman
14 Notices
Gateway Huron, LLC., owner, proposes to construct an approximately 650 foot tall, 54 story building
with 885,749 square foot residential/hotel floor area, 119,332 square foot retail area and 492,684
square foot parking area; connected to a second proposed 25 story building up to 350 feet tall with
approximately 244,000 square feet of office area, 16,853 square foot retail area, and 257,600 square
feet of parking area, both on a 130,075 square foot lot in an E5 General Retail Business District and
Semi-Industry District. The owner appeals for relief from the following sections of the Cleveland
Codified Ordinances:
1. Section 355.04(b) which states that in an “E” Area District, the maximum gross floor area of a
residential building cannot exceed one and one-half times the lot area. A maximum gross floor
area of 195,112.5 square feet is permitted: a gross floor of approximately 2 million square feet
is proposed.
2. Section 353.01 which states that in a “5” Height District, maximum height of the building
cannot exceed 250 feet.
3. Section 357.09(b)(2)(C) which states that the interior side yard in the amount of one-fourth
the height of the main building is required.
4. Section 357.08(b)(2) which states that the rear yard in the amount of one-half the height of
the building is required. (Filed February 10, 2015)

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on July 28, 2016, 09:03:22 AM
Very excited about this project but they haven't released any new information yet. :-( I really hope it happens
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on July 28, 2016, 10:07:29 AM
Very excited about this project but they haven't released any new information yet. :-( I really hope it happens

It may be awhile.  Stark & Co. are ramping up to begin construction on The Beacon, the 28-story apt tower at 515 Euclid where, originally I'd read they would begin work after the RNC, but in a later article, Michelle Jarboe indicated a fall or winter start IIRC.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: BCCLE1 on July 28, 2016, 10:47:48 AM
Very excited about this project but they haven't released any new information yet. :-( I really hope it happens

It may be awhile.  Stark & Co. are ramping up to begin construction on The Beacon, the 28-story apt tower at 515 Euclid where, originally I'd read they would begin work after the RNC, but in a later article, Michelle Jarboe indicated a fall or winter start IIRC.

What? Stark can't work on two projects at the same time? According to the Stark Enterprises web site, Stark has "in development" six projects. Two of which are 515 Euclid (The Beacon), and Nucleus.

Considering the Downtown Cleveland Alliance has said the waiting list for downtown living is around 2000 people on waiting list, I see no reason why both Stark's Cleveland projects can't be going up at the same time. It would be nice to see multiple construction cranes in Cleveland's skyline. It has been a long time since that has happened.

515 Euclid (The Beacon) is to be approx. 200 residential units, and Nucleus is to be approx. 450-500 units, so even if the Super Block project phase I were to start construction while either of Stark's projects were going up, and we include all the other residential projects (new construction, or redo's of older buildings), I still do not see why both Stark projects could not be going up at the same time. There is more than enough demand for downtown living.

And if one of the things holding up Stark's Nucleus project is the office component, I do not think this should hold up the apt component of the project. Stark can do the whole project in phases, just like many other projects are done. The question to a phased project though is the hotel portion since the hotel is both a part of the residential tower and the office tower.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Dougal on July 28, 2016, 10:58:06 AM
And if one of the things holding up Stark's Nucleus project is the office component, I do not think this should hold up the apt component of the project. Stark can do the whole project in phases, just like many other projects are done. The question to a phased project though is the hotel portion since the hotel is both a part of the residential tower and the office tower.

If he delays too much longer, won't he risk losing Benesch, which is looking for a 2018 occupancy? Still, I guess Benesch could get an extension of their current lease.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on July 28, 2016, 12:45:24 PM
I know that for many of you, most of your development experience with Stark is Pesht. But if you didn't see the entire Crocker Park project from the first twinkle in Stark's eye to where it is now, you're really not giving Stark much credit. The huge scale of the Crocker Park project and the amount of opposition he had to overcome showed me -- as a reporter who followed that project intimately -- what he is capable of. He can certainly do The Beacon and nuCLEus at the same time.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jam40jeff on July 28, 2016, 02:49:25 PM
I know that for many of you, most of your development experience with Stark is Pesht. But if you didn't see the entire Crocker Park project from the first twinkle in Stark's eye to where it is now, you're really not giving Stark much credit. The huge scale of the Crocker Park project and the amount of opposition he had to overcome showed me -- as a reporter who followed that project intimately -- what he is capable of. He can certainly do The Beacon and nuCLEus at the same time.

Yeah, Stark has done a good job in Westlake and Woodmere, but our experience with him in Cleveland is all talk and no show.  Only he can change that perception, and he hasn't done much yet to do so.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on July 28, 2016, 03:33:23 PM
It's not a matter of whether Stark can do both projects in the abstract. But we all know there are tons of hurdles to clear for any significant new residential construction in Cleveland, especially high rise construction and even more especially in downtown where a the last such project was Park Center, now Reserve Square, ... 44 years ago!  Financing is the usual devil in the details. If it were so easy, the Beacon would have risen more close in time to when its parking base was built over a decade ago...

And given the ginormous scale and daring architecture of nuCLEus it's not surprising these projects, largely by one company, being staggered, with the "smaller" Beacon going up first.... I know Cleveland is white hot right now, but even in a place like, say Chicago, such projects don't shoot up in the space of a year or so.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: pgn711 on July 29, 2016, 08:58:33 AM
I know that for many of you, most of your development experience with Stark is Pesht. But if you didn't see the entire Crocker Park project from the first twinkle in Stark's eye to where it is now, you're really not giving Stark much credit. The huge scale of the Crocker Park project and the amount of opposition he had to overcome showed me -- as a reporter who followed that project intimately -- what he is capable of. He can certainly do The Beacon and nuCLEus at the same time.

Yeah, Stark has done a good job in Westlake and Woodmere, but our experience with him in Cleveland is all talk and no show.  Only he can change that perception, and he hasn't done much yet to do so.

What was stark responsible for in Woodmere? Eton or something completely different?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on July 29, 2016, 09:20:12 AM
What was stark responsible for in Woodmere? Eton or something completely different?

Eton. But it's a very small development compared to Crocker Park, which is probably approaching $1 billion in total investment.

515 Euclid/Beacon is only a $50 million project with the hardest part (digging into downtown dirt and building a foundation) already done.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Firenze98 on July 29, 2016, 12:57:55 PM
Hanna Commercial newsletter promoting downtown retail with nuCLEus featured as well. Although they made a mistake on page 3 by noting nuCLEus will have 5,000 apartments  :-o  That would have to rival Burj Khalifa to fit that many units.

http://hhhc.reapplications.com/filecabinet/Contact/000062/HannaCRE-Newsletter-3rdQ-2016%281%29.pdf
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on July 29, 2016, 01:33:11 PM
And if one of the things holding up Stark's Nucleus project is the office component, I do not think this should hold up the apt component of the project. Stark can do the whole project in phases, just like many other projects are done. The question to a phased project though is the hotel portion since the hotel is both a part of the residential tower and the office tower.
If he delays too much longer, won't he risk losing Benesch, which is looking for a 2018 occupancy? Still, I guess Benesch could get an extension of their current lease.
Per the newsletter that Firenze just posted, they are looking to occupy and move in 2019 (although with the 5,000 apartment units in the same paragraph, I have to wonder about the fact checking).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on August 10, 2016, 10:08:25 AM
I'm losing faith that this project will happen. I haven't seen any updates on this project. 🙁🙁🙁
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hts121 on August 10, 2016, 10:27:41 AM
I eagerly opened this thread thinking there would be one when I saw there was a new post  :whip:
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on August 10, 2016, 10:32:24 AM
I think we're just in a frustrating time. We've had so many proposals and such and now zilch on all of them basically. I am still hopeful that we will be getting more news on many of them over the next few weeks. This proposal has so many pieces and parts and crazy financing requirements. It's not a surprise that it's taking a while.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: plinth857 on August 10, 2016, 10:36:14 AM
I'm losing faith that this project will happen. I haven't seen any updates on this project. 🙁🙁🙁

I wouldn't worry; just because updates haven't been forthcoming doesn't mean the project is dead or even stalled.  There are a lot of pieces that have to come together!  One item that makes me feel it is promising is that Stark has made their building over by the Warehouse district available for sale.  Also, there are contractors (at least one that I know of) that have been contacted about doing construction/installation work and to have bids/timeframes prepared for this and the Weston/Citymark project.

I still believe!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: osu4brutus03 on August 10, 2016, 10:48:56 AM
It's just this type of project is what we really need to happen. It'll make a huge impact within our skyline. I feel a heart beat again. ❤️ Thank You
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Floods7 on August 10, 2016, 12:13:53 PM
I spoke with someone recently that works for Stark. My company was liking for retail space downtown and we were interested in some of Starks properties. When I asked about some of their listings she also mentioned the upcoming Nucleus project, talking about it in a way that it was OBVIOUSLY going to be finished and retail space would be available to our company. I would assume they are instructed to sell the upcoming space as if it's already finished and furnished to get a potential tenant interested.

$60/sqft -- I'm out
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jeremyck01 on August 10, 2016, 12:50:32 PM
I'm losing faith that this project will happen. I haven't seen any updates on this project. 🙁🙁🙁

How about this: stop posting in a thread because you haven't heard anything. This goes for all project threads. I'm so tired of clicking on threads expecting to see news and it just someone going "what's happening with this project?"  It's a waste of time and space. When news come out about this or any other project, it will be posted here first. Relax.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on August 10, 2016, 01:02:40 PM
^ i know, but floods7 just gave us sort of an update -- i'll take that -- it was interesting.

nucleus office rentals are too much $ for his business, but if i am reading this right it doesn't look too out of line, so regarding pricing that is good news:

http://www.loopnet.com/Cleveland_Ohio_Market-Trends
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on August 10, 2016, 01:20:14 PM
^Isn't the data you are referencing relates to sale price?  I think Flood7 meant he was quoted $60 square foot for retail lease which I believe is pretty high for Cuyahoga County
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: sky on August 10, 2016, 02:41:41 PM
This is not Beverly Hills ... retail tenants won't rent at $60 pdf.  Max would be $38. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Hootenany on August 10, 2016, 02:43:10 PM
$60/sqft -- I'm out

If that's a true office rental rate that's pretty insane.  Isn't Key Tower close to $30/sqft?  Does Stark really think he can get double what Key Tower is getting?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on August 10, 2016, 03:00:08 PM
^retail, not office.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on August 10, 2016, 08:02:12 PM
I've heard from some folks I trust that things are progressing as they should with this. That is all...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on August 10, 2016, 09:21:27 PM
^Isn't the data you are referencing relates to sale price?  I think Flood7 meant he was quoted $60 square foot for retail lease which I believe is pretty high for Cuyahoga County

oh yeah its sale not rentals, his company wants to rent
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Floods7 on August 11, 2016, 02:33:30 PM
Correct, the $60/sqft is for streel level retail.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Dougal on August 29, 2016, 09:15:51 AM
The Hopcat Brewpub lease in NuCLEus is encouraging.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160829/NEWS/160829857/hopcat-brewpub-could-open-in-proposed-nucleus-project

I lately spent some time browsing architectural magazines and have decided that the design of NuCLEus is ok for Cleveland because there will be nothing else like it. OTOH, in bigger cities where eccentrically stacked box designs aren't rarities, the look gets old fast.  Oh well, maybe this is just a sign of my advancing age.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on August 29, 2016, 09:32:23 AM
Interesting tidbit from the article...

"Asked where launching nuCLEus stands, Stark said the company wants to close financing as soon as the city of Cleveland completes incentives requested for the project. He declined to go into more detail. A Jackson administration spokesman was not able to respond to questions by 4 p.m. on Friday, Aug. 26."

Actual news!!  Thanks for posting this update.

I wonder what would be the hold-up of incentives from the city if Council actually knew that financing for the project is hinged on the city moving first... I don't know if the city would drag it's feet on this.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on August 29, 2016, 09:48:32 AM
^I'm not sure how newsy that really is. It's been clear (explicit even) from the beginning this thing was going to require massive public hand-outs, and I wouldn't put much stock in the developer's comments about how far they are with private financing. I certainly hope it's true, though, and that what the developer is asking from city isn't too absurd.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on August 29, 2016, 11:01:17 AM
I hear what you're saying... On the one hand, I applaud planners and the CPC for thinking out of the box with aggressive and different architectural schemes, like nuCLEus and the new Hilton... On the other, the fact this muscular, stacked complex will dominate our skyline gives me pause, plus the design just seems so provocatively unbalanced I sometimes wonder about it's structural integrity... I'm sure they know what they're doing, however, and I do love the planned function of this massive project even if I'm not in love with its form.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on August 29, 2016, 01:28:40 PM
^I'm not sure how newsy that really is. It's been clear (explicit even) from the beginning this thing was going to require massive public hand-outs, and I wouldn't put much stock in the developer's comments about how far they are with private financing. I certainly hope it's true, though, and that what the developer is asking from city isn't too absurd.

How large are the public handouts? Tens of millions?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on August 29, 2016, 01:48:03 PM
^Who knows the exact number for this project, but as a point of reference, $35.5M of the $149 total financing package for Flats East Bank Phase II came form public sources (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/04/flats_east_bank_developers_wra.html). That's not really the value of the subsidies, but gives you an idea how big and complicated the ask probably is.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on August 31, 2016, 09:28:06 AM
Probably for nuCLEus. I recall that the current zoning didn't allow for a 50-story building in some/all of that triangular-shaped block...

ZONING MAP AMENDMENTS
Ordinance No. 730-16(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Changing the Use, [H]eight, and Area Districts of the parcels bounded by Prospect Avenue, Ontario [Street], and Huron [Road].

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2016/09022016/index.php
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ASPhotoman on October 06, 2016, 01:20:19 AM
Not sure if this has been shared on here yet. I was up late and was curious if anything would show up on Google if I searched Nucleus.

http://www.beneschlaw.com/files/uploads/Documents/Benesch_Cleveland%20Moving.pdf (http://www.beneschlaw.com/files/uploads/Documents/Benesch_Cleveland%20Moving.pdf)

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 06, 2016, 07:17:52 AM
Good find! I have not seen that. Every few days I randomly search topics such as "Cleveland office" or "Cleveland apartment" or "Cleveland construction" but I see that I also need to search the names of some specific developments. I've sometimes searched on the names of developers or architectural firms, but not too often.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on October 06, 2016, 09:33:07 AM
The Millennia Company has had been courted hard for the office space at NuCLEus. They have stated in the past a move to downtown is in the future and is looking for about 30k sq ft.  Originally wanting  to own a current building as part of a mixed use plan, that type of building is going away fast.  And the same type of connection that was there for AG with its move to Crocker is there between Millennia and Stark.

Edit: this was the case earlier in the summer.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ink on October 06, 2016, 09:36:53 AM
^I thought Millennia was moving to Key Tower.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Mendo on October 06, 2016, 10:00:51 AM
^ Milennia Companies is buying (bought?) the Key Tower and will be moving their headquarters there.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on October 06, 2016, 10:05:19 AM
Your both right, I didn't think that was a done deal.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ASPhotoman on October 06, 2016, 11:32:10 AM
Good find! I have not seen that. Every few days I randomly search topics such as "Cleveland office" or "Cleveland apartment" or "Cleveland construction" but I see that I also need to search the names of some specific developments. I've sometimes searched on the names of developers or architectural firms, but not too often.

It took me going through 5 pages on Google before I found it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 06, 2016, 12:18:10 PM
It took me going through 5 pages on Google before I found it.

That's what it takes. I usually go through 10 pages on each search term before I move on to the next one.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrnyc on October 06, 2016, 12:41:41 PM
so it seems like approx 1/5 of this is being pitched to be or could be financed via public subsidies? does anyone have a guess just what types of subsidies might those be? what all exactly can the city reasonably do for stark to help get this built?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 31, 2016, 03:16:35 PM
i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.
Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.
I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on October 31, 2016, 03:24:31 PM
i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.
Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.
I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 31, 2016, 03:32:15 PM
Nature of the beast. Check out the Flats East Bank thread.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jjames0408 on October 31, 2016, 04:13:55 PM
Nature of the beast. Check out the Flats East Bank thread.
And this is FEB X 1000.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on October 31, 2016, 05:06:28 PM
Nature of the beast. Check out the Flats East Bank thread.
And this is FEB X 1000.

Yes, but weren't a lot of the financing issues dealt with AFTER groundbreaking in that instance
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on October 31, 2016, 05:22:56 PM
Yes, but weren't a lot of the financing issues dealt with AFTER groundbreaking in that instance

I dont remember. Maybe for the infrastructure but not the buildings.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MissinOhio on November 01, 2016, 01:11:51 PM
i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.
Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.
I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.

515 Euclid is far off too.  Cleveland will not be seeing any new highrises downtown for a while.  These are all just plans.  It's nice to get excited about, but it's Cleveland, let's not hold our breath.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: w28th on November 01, 2016, 02:38:56 PM
i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.
Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.
I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.

515 Euclid is far off too.  Cleveland will not be seeing any new highrises downtown for a while.  These are all just plans.  It's nice to get excited about, but it's Cleveland, let's not hold our breath.

Ease up there chief.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on November 01, 2016, 03:04:18 PM
i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.
Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.
I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.

515 Euclid is far off too.  Cleveland will not be seeing any new highrises downtown for a while.  These are all just plans.  It's nice to get excited about, but it's Cleveland, let's not hold our breath.

Sources? Bc I've heard otherwise.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 01, 2016, 03:26:31 PM
I like how this person is saying we won't be seeing any new highrises in Cleveland anytime soon as if our market can't handle them, completely disregarding the Hilton, the E+Y Building, One University Circle, etc.

And the fact that those who are actually in the industry who have real ties to these projects saying the complete opposite. The only things I've heard so far from those with real connections are that both 515 and nuCLEus are moving forward at a really quick rate.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on November 01, 2016, 03:34:37 PM
A quick rate? It's slower than what Stark planned initially.

From the late 2014 PD article that started this thread:

Construction might begin in March (2015). Stark acknowledged that there will be a stretch, ideally as little as six months, when parking options in the Gateway District will be reduced by several hundred spaces. But the first phase of the project will more than replace that lost parking, he said.

"Our intention is to open up a portion of this development, probably most of the parking part of it, before the Republican National Convention," Stark said, "and then open the rest of it up in late 2016 or the spring of 2017."

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 01, 2016, 03:50:14 PM
Let me rephrase.

A good rate that isn't wildly unrealistic. Those timeframes were impossible. They were impossible in the best of markets. I'm not sure what Stark was thinking making those statements publicly, but there wasn't a chance in hell of achieving those timeframes.

For a project of this magnitude it is moving forward quickly when compared to other projects of a similar scale in other cities.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on November 01, 2016, 04:04:07 PM
Stark always is ambitious and talks a good game. Let's hope he can deliver. There should be no problem with people having doubts on here. Be great if he could get something built that wasn't in an exurb.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on November 01, 2016, 04:18:10 PM
UO Forumer Smith attended a nuCLEus presentation last spring with an updated timeframe. Again looks like this isn't going to happen either unless there's some quick action soon. Wonder what the new timeframe is? Anyone know?

I'm not fully aware of everything that has been announced, but I don't think anything new was unveiled.  That said, here are my notes.  I don't recall the name of the presenter, but it was a guy I'd say in his mid 30s, so obviously not Bob Stark.  He did a good job.  This is all to the best of my recollection / note taking, so please forgive me if I got anything wrong.
  • They expect to break ground middle of this fall.  Delivery will be late 2018 / early 2019 and they are expecting a two year absorption from there
  • Financing - the equity is committed and the financing is just about done, but there are a lot of components to it.  The presenter talked about getting it all wrapped up soon so they could break ground mid fall.  He referenced that maybe he was being a bit aggressive on getting everything tied up quickly on the financing to be ready for a mid fall ground breaking and one of their attorneys in the audience nodded in agreement
  • Office  - I think he said they are 65% preleased with Benesch taking 90k and they have another 60k committed
  • Residential - said the top 5 (I think) floors are being underwritten as apartments, but they'd like to sell as condos if market will bear.  Residential unit numbers and size are not finalized, but the apartments right now would be around 1,000 sf and those upper 5 floors would be 2,000 sf.  Said they are going back and forth on whether there will be balconies.  Also waiting on wind studies that could impact this.
  • Retail -  I THINK he said they were 65% preleased on this, but I may have misheard so I'm not 100% sure.  He said to expect 3-4 announcements before ICSC convention in May.  They are targeting national tenants and have several national restaurants committed.  They are targeting unique brands that are not in Cle that typically have high volume sales.  Mentioned they are not looking to compete with local chef driven product.  As far as retailers, it has been a tough sell so far.  He said a lot of retailers can look at tenant mix and understand if a national restaurant can make something work, then maybe the retailer can go in too, but it's hard for the retailers to gauge the market based on local restaurants.  He talked about potentially holding back some space to target national retailers to go in after national restaurants 
  • Parking deal is done with operator in place.  I think he said "ABS"??
  • Hotel operator is Olympia out of Portland ME
  • Was asked about LEED/green - he said they have tax abatement for the residential so they must meet city of Cleveland green community standards.
  • Roof - said they were open to feedback but their goal is to make a statement and not duplicate existing buildings. Sounds like they aren't changing it.   
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 01, 2016, 04:52:45 PM
I think we can all agree the timeframes that Cleveland developers announce are essentially meaningless, so we should just ignore them. But that cuts both ways. The fact that a previously announced time frame slips doesn't tell us that a project is in trouble or dead. Many of the large privately developed projects that did eventually break ground--e.g., One University Circle, Flats East Bank (I & II), the Snavely Project at W25th--had at least one false dawn.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jmicha on November 01, 2016, 05:43:46 PM
I think we can all agree the timeframes that ALL developers announce are essentially meaningless, so we should just ignore them.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on November 02, 2016, 11:29:22 AM
Well, just thinking logically here. Benesch has a lease up with 200 Public Square in 2018, I'm assuming both landlord and tenant would not like a one year lease.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on November 02, 2016, 11:56:44 AM
Well, just thinking logically here. Benesch has a lease up with 200 Public Square in 2018, I'm assuming both landlord and tenant would not like a one year lease.

Right. This is what I was thinking too. If developers have no timelines how do retailers and tenants plan for their future?

Why announce any dates then? What's the purpose if they're not real anyway?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on November 02, 2016, 01:26:07 PM
Exactly ^
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: SixthCity on November 02, 2016, 01:43:42 PM
I think you guys are underestimating the incredible complexity and fluidity of these large projects; and not out of whim but of necessity.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: StapHanger on November 02, 2016, 01:47:57 PM
I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

[Edited for typos and clarity]
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on November 02, 2016, 02:07:03 PM
I think you guys are underestimating the incredible complexity and fluidity of these large projects; and not out of whim but of necessity.

I agree but I'm just showing the deadlines Stark set. So actually he is underestimating the incredible complexity and fluidity of this large project.


I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

[Edited for typos and clarity]

If you've run any business you know there's a specific reason for a deadline that goes public. That deadline may not be met but it's not there for filler or to shut a reporter up. It's there to tell someone something and that message may not be for just the general public. So to say that a deadline doesn't matter in the development business would run counter to almost every other industry in the country. I don't buy it. I'll agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on November 02, 2016, 02:09:03 PM
I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

[Edited for typos and clarity]

I hear you, and I applaud Stark's creative ambition. But it's just curious to me that 515 Euclid seems to be full steam ahead with construction beginning in the coming months; Stark has a lot being juggled and, as you said, these projects are extremely complex and demand attention.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: plinth857 on November 02, 2016, 02:13:26 PM
Well, just thinking logically here. Benesch has a lease up with 200 Public Square in 2018, I'm assuming both landlord and tenant would not like a one year lease.

Perhaps so, but in Benesch's own press release, they indicate they aren't moving to the new offices until 2019.  It is possible that it may be ready for occupancy by the end of 2019.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on November 13, 2016, 11:52:44 AM
I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

[Edited for typos and clarity]

I hear you, and I applaud Stark's creative ambition. But it's just curious to me that 515 Euclid seems to be full steam ahead with construction beginning in the coming months; Stark has a lot being juggled and, as you said, these projects are extremely complex and demand attention.

515 Euclid is indeed full steam ahead.  They are selecting a construction manager in the next month and want to get started.

Nucleus continues to slip.  Ground breaking will be March at the earliest now
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 13, 2016, 12:50:06 PM
^Gottaplan, since I am not a construction expert, I wonder if you could expand a little on the 515 time  line.  In my mind, if a construction manager won't be selected until the end of the year it would seem that it will be June at the earliest that construction would begin.  Isn't the CM heavily involved in the bidding process for the various prime contractors?  So that process might not even begin until early next year.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Klingaling87 on November 13, 2016, 01:47:09 PM
^ if a CM is expected in December, work could start as early as February. Just depends on financing, drawings, permitting, etc..
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on November 14, 2016, 12:06:39 PM
^ if a CM is expected in December, work could start as early as February. Just depends on financing, drawings, permitting, etc..

From my limited experience... If the CM is selected in December, I wouldn't expect to see construction until April, especially because you effectively lose a week or so due to the holidays.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: surfohio on November 14, 2016, 12:07:45 PM
Folks I know over at Benesch are still pretty excited over being part of NuCLEus. When they start worrying, I'll let ya know!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: freethink on November 14, 2016, 12:32:39 PM
At one point Stark named The Walsh Group as pre-construction mgr. I wonder if it would just transition to them.
Especially considering that Walsh just finished  the AG headquarters at Crocker. Stark seems to like using the same ppl that he has built relationships with.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on November 14, 2016, 04:18:51 PM
Folks I know over at Benesch are still pretty excited over being part of NuCLEus. When they start worrying, I'll let ya know!

I'm still excited for the Indians to win a World Series. DK if I'll get that wish
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Dougal on November 28, 2016, 10:15:27 AM
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20161128/CUSTOM/311289999/checking-in-clevelands-rising-hotel-scene-ranges-from-chic-boutiques#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccl-morningroundup&utm_campaign=ccl-morningroundup-20161128&email_realestate

This Destination Cleveland created piece now refers to NuCLEus as a "30 story" project.  Diminished expectations?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Pugu on November 28, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
^Hopefully just poor writing. The article also says:

"Four suburban hotels, which opened in 2016, amplify city center options. East of downtown, the $40 million Holiday Inn Cleveland Clinic at University Circle offers 276 rooms and 13,000 square feet of meeting space; nearby Hyatt Place at Legacy Village provides 135 rooms and plenty of meeting space."

though a total of four suburban hotels are mentioned in the paragraph, listing the Cleveland clinic hotel as the first hotel in the paragraph suggests that it is one of the 'suburban' hotels. the average reader will not count the total number of hotels mentioned in the paragraph to later deduce that the CLE clnic hotel is not one of the suburban ones.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: mrclifton88 on November 28, 2016, 10:45:29 AM
I wouldnt put too much into that article, yet... there are a few things in there that aren't totally accurate.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on November 28, 2016, 11:17:06 AM
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20161128/CUSTOM/311289999/checking-in-clevelands-rising-hotel-scene-ranges-from-chic-boutiques#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccl-morningroundup&utm_campaign=ccl-morningroundup-20161128&email_realestate

This Destination Cleveland created piece now refers to NuCLEus as a "30 story" project.  Diminished expectations?

Personally, I think it would be great if it was a 30 story project. From a skyline view I think it would lead to a denser look to the area north of Gateway. And if it takes a smaller main building to get this project off the ground, so be it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on November 28, 2016, 02:28:12 PM
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20161128/CUSTOM/311289999/checking-in-clevelands-rising-hotel-scene-ranges-from-chic-boutiques#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccl-morningroundup&utm_campaign=ccl-morningroundup-20161128&email_realestate

This Destination Cleveland created piece now refers to NuCLEus as a "30 story" project.  Diminished expectations?

Personally, I think it would be great if it was a 30 story project. From a skyline view I think it would lead to a denser look to the area north of Gateway. And if it takes a smaller main building to get this project off the ground, so be it.

I have heard nothing but Stalemate about this project. Though, I still hold onto my CLE optimism.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 28, 2016, 02:34:20 PM
^Why are you picking on this project?  There are many developments which we discuss on this forum which were announced well before nucleus and have not broken ground.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jam40jeff on November 28, 2016, 02:38:07 PM
I'm not sure if you were around this board for the Pesht discussion over 10 years ago, but for some of us, Stark has a lot to prove to make us believers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on November 28, 2016, 02:53:45 PM
I'm not sure if you were around this board for the Pesht discussion over 10 years ago, but for some of us, Stark has a lot to prove to make us believers.

I have been on the forum since 2006 and have been observing pie in the sky development projects announced in Cleveland since the late 60s.  I'm getting good at telling which projects have merit and which do not.  Pesht was a long shot the minute it was announced (starting with the fact that it was so grand and he did not own much of the land) and I use to get a kick out of some of the discussions on this forum concerning it.

Personally I am no fan of Stark (I have had some minor business dealings with him), but I have trouble criticizing this proposal due to the fact that, in the grand scheme, it is not that old and major investments have been made (especially land purchase).
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: jam40jeff on November 28, 2016, 02:58:52 PM
Personally I am no fan of Stark (I have had some minor business dealings with him), but I have trouble criticizing this proposal due to the fact that, in the grand scheme, it is not that old and major investments have been made (especially land purchase).

Sorry, I should clarify...I'm not saying this project is going down like Pesht...I am just saying that some of us are more skeptical of Stark than others because of his long history of over-promising in the city while actually building in the suburbs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YABO713 on November 28, 2016, 04:15:04 PM
Personally I am no fan of Stark (I have had some minor business dealings with him), but I have trouble criticizing this proposal due to the fact that, in the grand scheme, it is not that old and major investments have been made (especially land purchase).

Sorry, I should clarify...I'm not saying this project is going down like Pesht...I am just saying that some of us are more skeptical of Stark than others because of his long history of over-promising in the city while actually building in the suburbs.

Bingo. And believe me, I very badly want to be wrong.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on November 28, 2016, 05:00:03 PM
Because Stark didn't know how to play politics in the city. A decade ago, he expressed frustration to me about how city and county officials didn't understand his need for sales, income and property tax TIFs for infrastructure and a few other requests he had. Instead the city and county officials had their own requests of him, including local hiring and DBE contracting to name just two.

If Stark still isn't sure about how to work magic on city/county leaders, perhaps he should ask Fred Geis for some pointers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gotribe on November 28, 2016, 08:07:53 PM
If all of the retailers that lined up to move in to Crocker Park committed to nucleus then this project would be out of the ground by now. Stark is not selling this project to the city, rather he is floating a beautiful and Grand development to national retailers in hopes to lure them to Cleveland. More specifically to the city. I give Stark a lot of credit for purchasing land, and developing renderings, all something needed to entice a product to the city of Cleveland that hasn't been done in over 30 years. At least he's taking a shot at it.  This isn't an example of Stark trying to put pretty pictures in the plain dealer and sitting on his butt doing nothing. He is truly giving it an honest effort. It's all for him to lose, and I'm sure he doesn't want that to happen. Again, he is trying to sell Cleveland, and the Cleveland demographic to the rest of the business world.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: TPH2 on November 28, 2016, 09:28:21 PM
Tweet from Michelle today when asked if there were any updates on nuCLEus. Not sure if that means anything.

@mjarboe
@leerucker Not yet. Possibly soon.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: LadyCle on December 16, 2016, 01:59:24 PM
^I thought Millennia was moving to Key Tower.

They must still be in their due diligence period because the deal hasn't closed yet. I'm hoping it happens soon!
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: LadyCle on December 16, 2016, 02:01:02 PM
Tweet from Michelle today when asked if there were any updates on nuCLEus. Not sure if that means anything.

@mjarboe
@leerucker Not yet. Possibly soon.

From what I heard they were struggling with their financing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Htsguy on December 16, 2016, 02:05:53 PM
^Every project (especially in Cleveland as we have seen lately) "struggles" with financing.  That statement means nothing to me without specifics.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: LadyCle on December 17, 2016, 09:15:08 AM
^Every project (especially in Cleveland as we have seen lately) "struggles" with financing.  That statement means nothing to me without specifics.

Even though the members on this forum are private, it doesn't mean I'd be willing to share specifics of information. Without secrecy there wouldn't exist competition. We all work in the business from what I gather. That's all I can say for now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: simplythis on December 28, 2016, 07:49:36 PM
I have some chatter info.  I spoke with someone involved in another project. They happened to come across someone involved with the architects involved in the Nucleus project.   
According to that person there is a substantial funding gap. This gap would require Stark to substantially scale back the project. It appears that Stark does not want to scale back
that much. Also, as time goes on Benesch needs to make a decision on their move. The longer this drags on the less chance they will committ because of their lease. This person involved with the architects feels that this project will not happen. This project needs to scale back & start construction soon.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 29, 2016, 08:25:25 AM
Interesting.  I suspect Stark wants to show to lenders the success of The Beacon. If it fills as quickly as The 9 did, lenders may be more generous. Problem is the timing may not work in his favor. Benesch can't wait much longer. I wonder what their drop-dead date is? If Benesch doesn't go into nuCLEus, where would they go? I hope Stark scales back. I'd rather have two 27-story towers, representing phase 1 and phase 2, than one 54-story tower anyway.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: ASPhotoman on December 29, 2016, 09:22:19 AM
Interesting.  I suspect Stark wants to show to lenders the success of The Beacon. If it fills as quickly as The 9 did, lenders may be more generous. Problem is the timing may not work in his favor. Benesch can't wait much longer. I wonder what their drop-dead date is? If Benesch doesn't go into nuCLEus, where would they go? I hope Stark scales back. I'd rather have two 27-story towers, representing phase 1 and phase 2, than one 54-story tower anyway.

Agreed. The feature I'm most excited for with Nucleus is the potential street impact it will have with the alley and retail factors. Although having another 50+ floor tower would be amazing, I would much rather see a focus on getting it done and adding to the vibrancy of the area.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on December 29, 2016, 09:37:16 AM
I know Benesch is the prime target-tenant Stark is negotiating with but, not to put the cart before the horse by presuming any Stark-Benesch is dead because all we have is hearsay at this point, I'm just wondering whether there could/should be other law firms of Benesch's size and prestige that could step into a deal should Benesch feel trapped in limbo viz Stark's financing negotiation/design disagreement.  As we know, Cleveland has been/is home to a variety of law firms including Jones Day, and Squires, which are 2 of the largest and most prestigious in the country -- among many others.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YO to the CLE on December 29, 2016, 10:49:34 AM
We are all quick to jump on developers when a project falls behind schedule, and sometimes, it is a direct result of their ineptitude, but often times, the lenders are just plain stingy. What frustrates me more than anything is that locally, our lenders will finance the construction of $4-$500,000 single family homes on the near westside, but they are scared to death to finance new construction mixed use downtown. And nationally, the lenders who would finance such a project focus mostly the big name cities.

It's like we are trapped in the twilight zone even with proven demand. I mean, how high do our rents have to get before they start handing out money? Just very frustrating.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on December 29, 2016, 12:10:40 PM
^It seems as though banks are leery of downtown in general.  With all of the pent-up demand for housing, you would think banks would jump on new construction.  Multiple new construction projects have been financed in University Circle... nothing downtown.  Even with occupancy at over 90% for a few years now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on December 29, 2016, 12:19:24 PM
You guys tell us not to jump on Stark but then assume it's all about the financing. The lenders may be weary because Stark can't line up any retailers. Or maybe there is an issue how Stark wants the project financed. Or there could be a third party involved that is slowing things down. The one truth about this project is that we don't know why it's not moving forward.

I still believe his aggressive deadline schedule from the beginning was a message for someone. Not quite sure who. That being said people have every right to be skeptical of Stark. He's track record shows he's great at delivering something in Westlake, not so much downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on December 29, 2016, 12:22:22 PM
^I don't like it, but in part, can understand it.  Cleveland has gone from zero-to-60 mph in 5 seconds... Less than a decade ago, when Euclid was torn up for ECP/BRT, downtown was a dead-as-a-doornail ghost town where there was only minimal activity along E. 4th Street where Corner Alley had just gone in... Obviously in the short time since then downtown has done extremely well with office building adaptive reuse conversions -- to the extent there really isn't much left.  We still haven't proven to the banks that we can build/sustain large scale new construction... downtown or elsewhere within city borders.  But we're getting there, esp in University Circle.  Downtown we have FEB, Avenue District (condos that have struggled), and, soon, Beacon.  Obviously Weston and NuCLEus would go a long way, but I understand the caution ... even though I don't necessarily like it.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on December 29, 2016, 12:25:19 PM
You guys tell us not to jump on Stark but then assume it's all about the financing. The lenders may be weary because Stark can't line up any retailers. Or maybe there is an issue how Stark wants the project financed. Or there could be a third party involved that is slowing things down. The one truth about this project is that we don't know why it's not moving forward.

I still believe his aggressive deadline schedule from the beginning was a message for someone. Not quite sure who. That being said people have every right to be skeptical of Stark. He's track record shows he's great at delivering something in Westlake, not so much downtown.

... which is why, at the very least, I want Beacon to get going.  At least this would get Stark off the downtown schnide. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 29, 2016, 12:28:38 PM
The information available is that financiers are leery of investing in new-construction residential in downtown Cleveland. Why is that a surprise? Remember the skepticism that Fred Geis displayed when asked about what he thought of anyone attempting a new-build apartment tower downtown? He's not the only one. How's Forest City's latest new-construction projects in Cleveland progressing? And if we're going to question Stark's inability achieve progress on a 54-story mixed-use tower, shouldn't we also get on Fairmount's back about not being able to start construction of a comparatively diminutive 11-story residential tower atop a retail pad on Flats East Bank?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on December 29, 2016, 12:32:13 PM
^I don't like it, but in part, can understand it.  Cleveland has gone from zero-to-60 mph in 5 seconds... Less than a decade ago, when Euclid was torn up for ECP/BRT, downtown was a dead-as-a-doornail ghost town where there was only minimal activity along E. 4th Street where Corner Alley had just gone in... Obviously in the short time since then downtown has done extremely well with office building adaptive reuse conversions -- to the extent there really isn't much left.  We still haven't proven to the banks that we can build/sustain large scale new construction... downtown or elsewhere within city borders.  But we're getting there, esp in University Circle.  Downtown we have FEB, Avenue District (condos that have struggled), and, soon, Beacon.  Obviously Weston and NuCLEus would go a long way, but I understand the caution ... even though I don't necessarily like it.

Despite all the office adaptive reuse, the office market in Cleveland still remains pretty soft. My (and others) argument for a more vibrant downtown has been an aggressive mechanism to create jobs in the region. When jobs are mentioned we get into the "Cleveland is in transition" argument. It's a fine point but then don't expect something like this project to come on-line quickly or possibly ever. The are plenty of North American markets creating more jobs and office/retail/housing demand than the Cleveland area. One is more likely to invest somewhere where the market is stronger to get a quicker ROI. It is what it is.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on December 29, 2016, 12:34:02 PM
The information available is that financiers are leery of investing in new-construction residential in downtown Cleveland. Why is that a surprise? Remember the skepticism that Fred Geis displayed when asked about what he thought of anyone attempting a new-build apartment tower downtown? He's not the only one. How's Forest City's latest new-construction projects in Cleveland progressing? And if we're going to question Stark's inability achieve progress on a 54-story mixed-use tower, shouldn't we also get on Fairmount's back about not being able to start construction of a comparatively diminutive 11-story residential tower atop a retail pad on Flats East Bank?

What info? A second hand conversation. It could very well be true but no facts have been presented towards why there is a delay.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: MissinOhio on December 29, 2016, 12:45:10 PM
^I don't like it, but in part, can understand it.  Cleveland has gone from zero-to-60 mph in 5 seconds... Less than a decade ago, when Euclid was torn up for ECP/BRT, downtown was a dead-as-a-doornail ghost town where there was only minimal activity along E. 4th Street where Corner Alley had just gone in... Obviously in the short time since then downtown has done extremely well with office building adaptive reuse conversions -- to the extent there really isn't much left.  We still haven't proven to the banks that we can build/sustain large scale new construction... downtown or elsewhere within city borders.  But we're getting there, esp in University Circle.  Downtown we have FEB, Avenue District (condos that have struggled), and, soon, Beacon.  Obviously Weston and NuCLEus would go a long way, but I understand the caution ... even though I don't necessarily like it.

If Cleveland did that in five seconds, most cities (including in the Rust Belt) have done it in half the time.  Don't get me wrong, what has happened in Cleveland in the past few years has been very impressive, but what is happening elsewhere will blow Cleveland away.  2005 was quite a while ago when talking about urban development, and you can point to any number of downtowns/city neighborhoods across the country and say the same thing.  This is one of the many reasons why it is so frustrating to get excited about Cleveland any more in development.  Just got back from another trip to Milwaukee, and to see the amount of cranes across the skyline is amazing.  They have already worked on making the pedestrian activity zones thrive, now they're working on their skyline and the massive residential highrises that go with a growing downtown.  Milwaukee has been building residential highrises for several years now.  Beacon still hasn't started, and that's the smallest of the major projects including Weston and NuCLEus.  I know all about the residential conversions right now in Cleveland, but most cities have already been past that, and are now seeing extremely impressive (new construction) projects.  I just think banks are leery of Cleveland (and the rest of Ohio) when it comes to massive projects because they don't see demand for it, or they have performed well below expectations when it comes to demand.  Honestly, I would love to see them happen, but I highly doubt NuCLEus or Weston ever get built.  The Beacon has the best chance, IMO.  All this talk of big Cleveland companies building new highrises just doesn't seem plausible in today's Cleveland; there needs to be a complete change in mindset in the city.

It's not about being negative, but Cleveland is seriously failing at doing most anything development-wise compared to just about every major city out there.  I see why people try to be big boosters for Cleveland (the city needs it) and I use to be one of them, but if you do any sort of traveling to major cities, you begin to wonder why Cleveland can't seem to get any type of progressive leadership to make the city competitive.  Not to stray away from NuCLEus, but the original plan is not going to happen.  It would just be nice to see one of the many surface parking lots that scar Cleveland go away.

Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 29, 2016, 12:52:03 PM
What info? A second hand conversation. It could very well be true but no facts have been presented towards why there is a delay.

I think you're missing the totality of everything that's being said here in this and other threads. The fact is what MissinOhio just noted -- look at the lack of cranes in our skyline. We're just not building that much in Cleveland compared to other cities. And what we do build here is HEAVILY subsidized if not outright owned by the public-sector.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on December 29, 2016, 12:59:37 PM
What info? A second hand conversation. It could very well be true but no facts have been presented towards why there is a delay.

I think you're missing the totality of everything that's being said here in this and other threads. The fact is what MissinOhio just noted -- look at the lack of cranes in our skyline. We're just not building that much in Cleveland compared to other cities. And what we do build here is HEAVILY subsidized if not outright owned by the public-sector.

Not missing it and even said financing could be the issue. Just like to know the reason from a trusted, fact-verified source. Second hand conversation is great for these threads, no doubt.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: gottaplan on December 29, 2016, 01:50:42 PM
This is a risky project and probably oversold at 50+ stories.  I hate to say it but it will likely be scaled back in size and delayed from the spring ground breaking.  Before anyone asks, I don't "KNOW" this.  But i know people who do know, and they tell me it's not a done deal yet.  So experience tells me it's not breaking ground in the next 3 months.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: clvlndr on December 29, 2016, 02:08:36 PM
^I don't like it, but in part, can understand it.  Cleveland has gone from zero-to-60 mph in 5 seconds... Less than a decade ago, when Euclid was torn up for ECP/BRT, downtown was a dead-as-a-doornail ghost town where there was only minimal activity along E. 4th Street where Corner Alley had just gone in... Obviously in the short time since then downtown has done extremely well with office building adaptive reuse conversions -- to the extent there really isn't much left.  We still haven't proven to the banks that we can build/sustain large scale new construction... downtown or elsewhere within city borders.  But we're getting there, esp in University Circle.  Downtown we have FEB, Avenue District (condos that have struggled), and, soon, Beacon.  Obviously Weston and NuCLEus would go a long way, but I understand the caution ... even though I don't necessarily like it.

If Cleveland did that in five seconds, most cities (including in the Rust Belt) have done it in half the time.  Don't get me wrong, what has happened in Cleveland in the past few years has been very impressive, but what is happening elsewhere will blow Cleveland away.  2005 was quite a while ago when talking about urban development, and you can point to any number of downtowns/city neighborhoods across the country and say the same thing.  This is one of the many reasons why it is so frustrating to get excited about Cleveland any more in development.  Just got back from another trip to Milwaukee, and to see the amount of cranes across the skyline is amazing.  They have already worked on making the pedestrian activity zones thrive, now they're working on their skyline and the massive residential highrises that go with a growing downtown.  Milwaukee has been building residential highrises for several years now.  Beacon still hasn't started, and that's the smallest of the major projects including Weston and NuCLEus.  I know all about the residential conversions right now in Cleveland, but most cities have already been past that, and are now seeing extremely impressive (new construction) projects.  I just think banks are leery of Cleveland (and the rest of Ohio) when it comes to massive projects because they don't see demand for it, or they have performed well below expectations when it comes to demand.  Honestly, I would love to see them happen, but I highly doubt NuCLEus or Weston ever get built.  The Beacon has the best chance, IMO.  All this talk of big Cleveland companies building new highrises just doesn't seem plausible in today's Cleveland; there needs to be a complete change in mindset in the city.

It's not about being negative, but Cleveland is seriously failing at doing most anything development-wise compared to just about every major city out there.  I see why people try to be big boosters for Cleveland (the city needs it) and I use to be one of them, but if you do any sort of traveling to major cities, you begin to wonder why Cleveland can't seem to get any type of progressive leadership to make the city competitive.  Not to stray away from NuCLEus, but the original plan is not going to happen.  It would just be nice to see one of the many surface parking lots that scar Cleveland go away.



But my point is that Cleveland has had to come from much further back than most cities -- including those in the so-called "Rust Belt," so to see what we've done in such short a time is amazing... at least it is, to me.  Milwaukee, which was never the heavy industrial city Cleveland is/was, was never in as bad a shape as Cleveland with our extreme loss of industry and corporate HQ/offices since the 1960s through at least the early 2000s (and still, to some degree, is continuing).  Milwaukee is also in Chicago's massive wake, just 75 miles to the north, and thus it enjoy's many of Chicago's regional privileges...

Minneapolis-St. Paul, again much more white collar/less heavy industry, also has had a far superior launching pad than Cleveland... But places like KC, Indy, and even St. Louis don't impress me as exceeding, or even matching Cleveland, building-wise/development-wise in the last decade or so and, again, none of these had experienced the collapse Cleveland had -- not to mention also being ground-zero for the 2008 foreclosure crisis.  Give me downtown Cleveland over any of those places in terms of excitement, culture, architecture, food, activity, sports, transit, etc... Only Detroit has been/is clearly worse off than Cleveland but, of course, Detroit's a larger city in a much larger metro area than Cleveland, and still has much of the powerful auto industry there ... and Dan Gilbert.

I'm not saying Cleveland's the be-all, end-all in terms of downtown, close-in neighborhood development, but I am extremely impressed with where we've come, especially given the negativity, skepticism, noncooperation and, flat out, incompetency regarding development that, until recently, was Cleveland's mantra.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: KJP on December 29, 2016, 02:30:04 PM
Not missing it and even said financing could be the issue. Just like to know the reason from a trusted, fact-verified source. Second hand conversation is great for these threads, no doubt.

Of course we all do too. But you also know there are reputable sources here on UO and we learn over time who they are. Just I trust in your aviation news insights and you will hopefully trust in my rail/transit insights, there are people on this forum who I trust when it comes to sharing development insights. And when they share them, in less than a week, the PD or Crain's typically has an article confirming it with more details.

So getting back to the point of this thread, I do think Stark's plan is an over-reach. I love his vision, but I'm afraid it's just not realistic at this time. When Geis made his skeptical comment about building high-rise residential downtown, it was actually in reference to Stark's more achievable project -- for The Beacon.  I have to wonder what Geis thinks of Stark's desire to build nuCLEus.... I wish Stark would focus just on The Beacon right now. I think he hurts his credibility in trying to pursue both at the same time. If Beacon succeeds, then I think the next high-rise residential project downtown isn't nuCLEus, but the Playhouse Square tower atop that district's proposed parking garage.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: YO to the CLE on December 29, 2016, 02:47:59 PM
What info? A second hand conversation. It could very well be true but no facts have been presented towards why there is a delay.

I think you're missing the totality of everything that's being said here in this and other threads. The fact is what MissinOhio just noted -- look at the lack of cranes in our skyline. We're just not building that much in Cleveland compared to other cities. And what we do build here is HEAVILY subsidized if not outright owned by the public-sector.

Ehh, I get what you're saying for some cities in the Midwest, but I don't see putting Cleveland at the bottom for development. I travel quite frequently to most Midwest cities for my work, and I can say from experience that outside of Chicago (obvious), Pittsburgh, and Minneapolis, I am not seeing an exorbitant amount of construction like you say. Taking into account development across the whole city, I think we are right up there with Milwaukee, St Louis, Indy, Cincy, Columbus, etc.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus development
Post by: X on December 29, 2016, 03:20:10 PM
Folks, this is a thread for discussion of the nuCLEus development, not for comparisons of Rust Belt city's comebacks.  Please keep it to the topic.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: simplythis on January 22, 2017, 08:51:58 PM
Anyone hear anything new on Nucleus. http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: YABO713 on January 22, 2017, 10:56:41 PM
Anyone hear anything new on Nucleus. http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/nucleus/

Nothing encouraging lately, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Urbanophile on January 23, 2017, 02:59:47 PM
I hope Stark is willing to cut down this project a little bit if he absolutely has to. I'm okay with a shorter tower and no hotel, as long as he's able to still bring some promising retail and new restaurants to this part of downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: stpats44113 on February 05, 2017, 07:43:10 AM
$250 million Stark nuCLEus project is stalled, but 'alive'

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170205/NEWS/170209905/-250-million-stark-nucleus-project-is-stalled-but-alive

More than two years after Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments lofted plans for a 48-floor downtown Cleveland skyscraper, the site remains a sea of parking lots.


Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: PoshSteve on February 05, 2017, 04:32:07 PM
Seems like good news, at least that its still ongoing and not dead, and the mention of leases with specific retailers is a great sign to that.

"The final, missing piece? Stark said the project is in negotiations with the city of Cleveland to put in place the public financing portion of the $250 million project."

I'm taking this as meaning private financing is all in place. If so that's wonderful! Not surprising that the city would be holding things up
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: TBideon on February 05, 2017, 07:04:33 PM
I take Shark's word as far as I would Trump's
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on February 06, 2017, 09:18:25 AM
Anybody in the development field have an idea about the way lenders may view Cleveland if this actually gets off the ground?  Will it be any easier for developers to build new construction housing versus what they're faced with now? 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: simplythis on February 06, 2017, 12:11:08 PM
Anybody have an idea of what Stark is asking for in public financing? Hopefully it is not a Deal Breaker.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Hts121 on February 06, 2017, 12:33:32 PM
Seems like good news, at least that its still ongoing and not dead, and the mention of leases with specific retailers is a great sign to that.

"The final, missing piece? Stark said the project is in negotiations with the city of Cleveland to put in place the public financing portion of the $250 million project."

I'm taking this as meaning private financing is all in place. If so that's wonderful! Not surprising that the city would be holding things up

I'm taking this as meaning he was able to secure SOME private financing and wants the City to step in and fill the financing gap with massive public subsidies..... probably more than what was originally envisioned. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Mov2Ohio on February 06, 2017, 01:00:44 PM
^Exactly. I wouldn't blame the hold up here on anything the city has or hasn't done. Getting $200 million in private financing is a time consuming process.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: 327 on February 06, 2017, 02:10:08 PM
This kind of project should get top financing priority.  I would hate to see it not happen just because the city believes it has better investment ideas.  In general I think we've spent enough on downtown, but the retail component of this project could boost all the city's neighborhoods at once.  And we need all the new-build hi-rise housing units we can get.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: down4cle on February 06, 2017, 02:13:00 PM
You have to remember that the city does not have unlimited resources also.  I know for a fact that the city is doing everything that they can on this project.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: mrnyc on February 06, 2017, 03:46:42 PM
i wonder if the port authority could help with this?
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Oldmanladyluck on February 06, 2017, 04:00:37 PM
^My guess is that the Port is already involved in some fashion... they usually play a part in large projects like this.  Beyond the abatement for the residential structure and the TIF which I'm sure has been requested, I wonder what else Stark is looking for from the City. The article mentions "involving the schools", which could be TIF or some other issue regarding property taxes.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Hts121 on February 06, 2017, 04:06:21 PM
This kind of project should get top financing priority.  I would hate to see it not happen just because the city believes it has better investment ideas.  In general I think we've spent enough on downtown, but the retail component of this project could boost all the city's neighborhoods at once.  And we need all the new-build hi-rise housing units we can get.

Do you know that it is NOT getting 'top financing priority' from the City?  I am not quite sure what that means, but it certainly can't mean that ALL other investment ideas, such as investment in infrastructure and schools, get scrapped until Stark gets whatever he wants from the City.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: 327 on February 06, 2017, 04:22:56 PM
From the article:

Cleveland city councilman Kerry McCormack, whose Ward 3 includes downtown, said negotiations between the developer and city administration have “gotten sensitive around the schools. Normally with tax increment financing plans, they don’t include funds from the schools (just the city). From what I understand, there are some solutions for the schools, and Stark wants to get creative how it does it.”

Based on that, it sounds like the only way to make this particular bond issue work is by diverting future school funding.  That's not something I would rush to approve.  Other forms of funding and support do exist, so one can only assume those have been ruled out.  That's what I was originally getting at.  That, and our city's recent history of official resistance to large-scale development proposals.

We aren't being told much here and what we're hearing raises as many questions as it answers.  Everything is speculative right now.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Hts121 on February 06, 2017, 05:32:14 PM
I think the bigger question is why is this project so desperate for financing that discussion of funding from the schools is even on the table.  This seems like more of the same with Stark and his proposals downtown.  Each and every time, he seems to reach too high and it all falls apart for one reason or another.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: KJP on February 06, 2017, 08:54:48 PM
Stark needs extensive subsidies for constructing a new high-rise downtown. So did the convention center hotel. So did the Ernst & Young Tower at Flats East Bank. Not seeing a big difference here.

Even his Beacon Tower got a huge break, above the usual tax abatement and a tax-increment financing district, from a bankruptcy sale in which Harbor Group purchased the 515 Euclid garage for $8.5 million -- but it cost $25 million to build. The dramatically lower financing costs undoubtedly made it possible for Harbor Group to offer the air rights development at a more reasonable rate that could be supported by a new tower, even at Cleveland's low rents.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: 327 on February 06, 2017, 08:58:13 PM
If you don't reach high you never get anywhere.  Is the Q renovation a reach?  Depends on who you ask, but nobody doubts they'll get what they need.  And we just did the stadium too.  Great gobs of money.  There's always opportunity cost and this city has hardly been austere.  I remember Stark complaining when FEB received the support he wanted for his WHD proposal, he even called FEB the suburbs.  It's nice that he's still trying so hard, isn't it?  He's got gumption. 
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: E Rocc on February 08, 2017, 10:02:52 AM
If you don't reach high you never get anywhere.  Is the Q renovation a reach?  Depends on who you ask, but nobody doubts they'll get what they need.  And we just did the stadium too.  Great gobs of money.  There's always opportunity cost and this city has hardly been austere.  I remember Stark complaining when FEB received the support he wanted for his WHD proposal, he even called FEB the suburbs.  It's nice that he's still trying so hard, isn't it?  He's got gumption. 

Maybe so, but those are the kinds of things con men do.

I hope I’m putting aside how much I hate the Jenga tower design, but this is starting to sound like Stark’s trying to make like Trump, be a big shot with OPM.   In this case, the OP is us, the taxpayers.

I’m normally a big believer that downtown is the public face of a city and how it’s national and even global image is judged, and therefore focusing on it is fine.   But really, I’m beginning to think there are better places to put public funds, if they must be spent.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on February 08, 2017, 10:48:41 AM
Why does Stark need funds from the schools? It's a bit surprising because there's a pretty good possibility most NuCLEus residents with children will likely avoid Cleveland Public Schools anyway. I can understand the city's stance on this one.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: mrnyc on February 08, 2017, 10:48:58 AM
If you don't reach high you never get anywhere.  Is the Q renovation a reach?  Depends on who you ask, but nobody doubts they'll get what they need.  And we just did the stadium too.  Great gobs of money.  There's always opportunity cost and this city has hardly been austere.  I remember Stark complaining when FEB received the support he wanted for his WHD proposal, he even called FEB the suburbs.  It's nice that he's still trying so hard, isn't it?  He's got gumption. 

Maybe so, but those are the kinds of things con men do.

I hope I’m putting aside how much I hate the Jenga tower design, but this is starting to sound like Stark’s trying to make like Trump, be a big shot with OPM.   In this case, the OP is us, the taxpayers.

I’m normally a big believer that downtown is the public face of a city and how it’s national and even global image is judged, and therefore focusing on it is fine.   But really, I’m beginning to think there are better places to put public funds, if they must be spent.


^ yep, so lets see if he can pull off 515 euclid first. that one is a gimme.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: mrclifton88 on February 08, 2017, 11:10:52 AM
More NuCleUs news...

"Cleveland Live! will anchor nuCLEus project retail; Shake Shack, HopCat, Starbucks Reserve sign on"

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/02/cleveland_live_will_anchor_nuc.html#incart_river_home
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: ytown2ctown on February 08, 2017, 11:37:01 AM
can someone explain the timing on this?????
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: YABO713 on February 08, 2017, 11:45:08 AM
"This ambitious project is still years away, if all goes as planned." >>> Cleveland Scene

Benesch might actually still be in play. From the sounds of it, they could sign another five-year lease with 200 Public Square before they can even move.

Do appreciate the optimism offered in the Cleveland.com piece, though.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Old AmrapinVA on February 08, 2017, 11:57:01 AM
More NuCleUs news...

"Cleveland Live! will anchor nuCLEus project retail; Shake Shack, HopCat, Starbucks Reserve sign on"

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/02/cleveland_live_will_anchor_nuc.html#incart_river_home

"If the project starts this year, it might be open by 2019" is akin too "If the Browns find a QB, they might be in the Super Bowl by 2020".

Reads a bit like a real estate fluff piece to me. Surprised it came from Jarboe.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: seicer on February 08, 2017, 12:08:02 PM
Nice. Cordish did a nice job of reviving the old downtown Louisville mall into Louisville Live!

(http://www.kentuckytourism.com/!userfiles/listingImages/4th%20St%20Entrance-Kroger%20Event.jpg)
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: yanni_gogolak on February 08, 2017, 12:32:24 PM
I wonder how much of the footprint these will consume. I was hoping for more retail. That will be the next indicator that Downtown is still progressing.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: punch on February 08, 2017, 12:37:01 PM
If I recall correctly, there is two phases to this project, right? 

First phase is restaurants, retail fronting a large parking structure, phase 2 was an office tower.

Do I have that abaout right? 

Is so, not bad for phase 1
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: willyboy on February 08, 2017, 12:41:27 PM
Why does Stark need funds from the schools? It's a bit surprising because there's a pretty good possibility most NuCLEus residents with children will likely avoid Cleveland Public Schools anyway. I can understand the city's stance on this one.

Its not about funds from the schools as much as it is getting the schools to agree to forgo funds that they would otherwise have coming to them as a result of this project.     
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Pugu on February 08, 2017, 12:43:54 PM
More food and drink....I'd prefer to have a Target (or Target Express), hardware store, office supply store, clothing store, etc... plus, I'd rather have 30 little stores (not that Target is little) than one big place--as that will allow for more stability if that one venue fails...
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: seicer on February 08, 2017, 12:50:55 PM
I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: McLovin on February 08, 2017, 12:57:41 PM
I thought that Fourth Street Live! photo was a render for Cleveland at first lol. I am excited about the Shake Shack though. I always wanted to see what the hype was about but never had the means to travel to one. Exciting! How many Starbucks would this make downtown? Four? I believe three of them are about a 3-5 minute walk from each other. I don't know who has more stores between them and Subway downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: seicer on February 08, 2017, 01:04:16 PM
Starbucks Reserve is a high-end Starbucks with a dedicated tasting room. It'll be nice to have that in downtown.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: Urbanophile on February 08, 2017, 01:50:38 PM
All those tenants sound promising, but I was really hoping to see more retail. That's what downtown really needs more of, and that's what Stark promised with this project. Hopefully with the addition of new downtown residents from the Huntington Building, Cleveland Athletic Club, the Beacon, and NuCLEus, retailers will be more comfortable with opening downtown Cleveland locations in the near future.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: inlovewithCLE on February 08, 2017, 01:52:00 PM
I cannot put into words how happy and excited I am for us to get a Cleveland Live. That type of venue plays into our strengths and it capitalizes on the overflow from major events going on at the Q. It's also an additional venue that will be attractive for major acts when they want to increase potential capacity. And if done properly, it can be a draw in and of itself. Huge deal. Love it, love it, love it
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: mrclifton88 on February 08, 2017, 01:59:46 PM
I thought that Fourth Street Live! photo was a render for Cleveland at first lol. I am excited about the Shake Shack though. I always wanted to see what the hype was about but never had the means to travel to one. Exciting! How many Starbucks would this make downtown? Four? I believe three of them are about a 3-5 minute walk from each other. I don't know who has more stores between them and Subway downtown.

7 Starbucks, actually... but as stated this is a unique brand of Starbucks :) It sounds like NuCleUS is going more for dining and entertainment than apparel/retail.  It will be interesting to see what the ultimate list of tenants is, assuming this is a go, and also bringing in the fact that Gilbert supposedly is creating a plan for Tower City that should center around mid to high end retail.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: LadyCle on February 08, 2017, 02:53:11 PM
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170208/NEWS/170209811/entertainment-concept-shake-shack-set-plate-for-nucleus
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: 327 on February 08, 2017, 02:58:55 PM
I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.

The Galleria was doomed without an anchor.  When Tower City lost its anchor, same problem.  A Target here, like the one Columbus is getting near OSU, could serve as a retail anchor for all of downtown.  If rent subsidies are needed to make it work then they're needed.  Our inner city is not oversaturated with retail, rather it's dying for lack of access to retail.  Doesn't matter how abundant it is at the edges of the county.  A certain scale of it has to be present downtown for the city to meet its residents' needs.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: McLovin on February 08, 2017, 03:35:58 PM
I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.

The Galleria was doomed without an anchor.  When Tower City lost its anchor, same problem.  A Target here, like the one Columbus is getting near OSU, could serve as a retail anchor for all of downtown.  If rent subsidies are needed to make it work then they're needed.  Our inner city is not oversaturated with retail, rather it's dying for lack of access to retail.  Doesn't matter how abundant it is at the edges of the county.  A certain scale of it has to be present downtown for the city to meet its residents' needs.
To me the thing that kills the momentum (as well as need in some eyes) for a Target downtown is having one (a rather large one at that) about 5-10 minutes away in the steelyard. Having a Walmart down there doesn't help the case for one either. IMO.
Title: Re: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus
Post by: YABO713 on February 08, 2017, 04:30:51 PM
Louisville Live has catapulted the city (along with the Bourbon Trail) into a MAJOR destination for bachelor parties from the South and Midwest. Although we all may not think becoming that sort of destination is desirable, ask Nashville, KC, and Louisville how it has benefited their cities.

I cannot put into words how happy and excited I am for us to get a Cleveland Live. That type of venue plays into our strengths and it capitalizes on the overflow from major events going on at the Q. It's also an additional venue that will be attra