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Author Topic: Cleveland: Demolition Watch  (Read 7820 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1590 on: December 20, 2012, 01:55:50 PM »
Interesting that Richard Flordia retweeted this.......

Patrick Staunton ‏@312Patrick
@Richard_Florida CLE casino bought 50% of historic building, blocked all efforts of renovation. Got the city to condemn it, for parking

https://twitter.com/Richard_Florida
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1591 on: December 20, 2012, 02:11:12 PM »
Interesting that Richard Flordia retweeted this.......

Patrick Staunton ‏@312Patrick
@Richard_Florida CLE casino bought 50% of historic building, blocked all efforts of renovation. Got the city to condemn it, for parking

https://twitter.com/Richard_Florida

Simple. That's pretty much how I see it.

Offline freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1592 on: December 21, 2012, 02:04:08 PM »
Boy that Richard Florida is everywhere.  But I would like to ask him what renovation he is referring to. Is he speaking of a current viable renovation plan that we don't know about? Or is he talking about the plan that the owners drag out every time they need to so they can lead people into believing they have only the best intentions. Because you really must be sincere about something you have owned since 1967.  Or much like the cold storage building has this building just stood to generate enough revenue for you as a billboard for long-term advertising and as a business loss, while never investing a dime in it? I find it curious that these same owners tried to hold up the gateway complex 20 years ago with their proposed renovation of their World Auto Parts property that stood within the gateway project. I am indifferent as to whether this building stays or goes, but I think it's clear as to the owners true intentions with this property. But it will be nice to see that Barbara Anne Bridal sign gone. I would have settled for just that.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1593 on: December 21, 2012, 02:47:35 PM »
Several people have approached the owners about buying and renovating the building for restaurants, apartments, etc.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1594 on: December 21, 2012, 06:19:02 PM »
Contractor fails in last-minute attempt to save Stanley Block building in downtown Cleveland
By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer
on December 21, 2012 at 6:09 PM, updated December 21, 2012 at 6:52 PM
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/12/contractor_fails_in_last-minut.html#incart_river_default



"The preservation of the historic Stanley Block building is an unusual circumstance that might favor intervention if it were accompanied by a credible plan to restore the building," Pianka wrote. "But it is too late to re-open this case without proof that the building's owner has the will to save it.

"With regret for the loss of the historic Stanley Block building, this court must deny the requested motion to intervene."

Built in the 1870s, the Stanley Block is a rare stone-faced structure at the edge of the city's Gateway district. Neglected for years, the building became the subject of a nasty ownership dispute when casino developer Rock Ohio Caesars LLC bought up surrounding real estate for a parking garage. The casino group also acquired half the shares in Macron Investment Co., which owns the Stanley Block.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 06:19:29 PM by CleveChiNola »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1595 on: December 22, 2012, 07:05:26 PM »
I'm sorry to be the one to share this picture. There was also a guy down there video-taping the demolition. The northbound lanes of Ontario were closed today for this travesty....

"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline New World Techno Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1596 on: December 22, 2012, 08:12:55 PM »
I watched the demo for a few hours today.  It was fascinating and sickening all at once.  Watching the ornate stone facade fall and be crushed, watching the exceptionally strong wooden floors and roof challenge the modern hydraulic tools, watching the riveted iron beams that looked just like the beams in the NYC subway being crunched, watching the insanely massive wooden roof supports, likely made of old growth timber being crushed and pulverized by the tractors of the machines...yeah it was pretty sickening.  Why couldn't anything be saved?  The bricks?  The historic timbers?   I have a lot of video and photos, but I can't even watch them at this point.  Watching this demo was extremely disturbing and made me wonder a lot about all of the historic structures that have been demo'd before this one...  large swath's of the warehouse district, the original Union Terminal project, the flats, the group plan, East 9th street, yeesh... I'm left with the overwhelming feeling that we've destroyed everything that matters and replaced it with nothing that matters......

Offline TBideon

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1597 on: December 23, 2012, 11:54:41 AM »
Good lord you guys are being overly dramatic

Offline stpats44113

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1598 on: December 23, 2012, 01:29:36 PM »
Hahahahaha!!! I agree. It's not like the building was in pristine condition.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1599 on: December 23, 2012, 06:01:20 PM »
Good lord you guys are being overly dramatic

Borrow someone's soul for a few minutes and maybe you'll understand what history, architecture and craftmanship can mean to others in a city. Maybe then you'll see and feel the difference in your body that tells you there's a difference between places like Streetsboro and Chagrin Falls....

EDIT: what building that was constructed in the 1870s is in pristine condition? The older the buildings get, the rougher around the edges they become. They also become better story tellers. In Europe, you can always tell the oldest buildings because of how imperfect and full of stories they are and that, like humans, makes them all the more lovable and worthy of preservation.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 10:32:25 PM by KJP »
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1600 on: December 23, 2012, 07:19:55 PM »
Cleveland has lost too many buildings for parking.


http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/cleavelands-warehouse-district-1960s-vs-t
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 07:51:54 PM by CleveChiNola »

Offline ink

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1601 on: December 23, 2012, 08:37:17 PM »
It is too bad this outcome could not have been predicted/assumed when the Columbia decision was made. Perhaps Columbia (which is much less cut off from a similar context) could have been kept if Stanley were out of the picture from the start.

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1602 on: December 24, 2012, 07:43:18 AM »
Cleveland has lost too many buildings for parking.


http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/cleavelands-warehouse-district-1960s-vs-t

But we gained the Pinnacle!  Whohoo!!

If the Columbia could have been saved instead of the Stanley, I'm sure there wouldn't be too many folks complaining.  The Columbia was the real loss with the new casino opening, IMO.  Again, how many preservationsts were screaming for a plan for the Stanley before the casino opened?  How many years went by while we watched the building decay?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1603 on: December 24, 2012, 09:41:53 AM »

But we gained the Pinnacle!  Whohoo!!

Except that Pinnacle was built atop a parking deck.

Quote

If the Columbia could have been saved instead of the Stanley, I'm sure there wouldn't be too many folks complaining.  The Columbia was the real loss with the new casino opening, IMO.  Again, how many preservationsts were screaming for a plan for the Stanley before the casino opened?  How many years went by while we watched the building decay?

Some of us did, but since preservationists in Cleveland don't have the numbers, aren't organized enough and lack funding. So there will be more of these losses, especially in the middle ranges of "sacred." Buildings like the Broadway Mills and Independent Towel Supply Co. (both lost to the Inner Belt in 2010) seem to fall into the low range of sacred. But there are some sacred cows in Cleveland that could be untouchable, like the May Company or the Old Stone Church are among them. It seems the Columbia and Stanley buildings fell into the middle range. I think we need tougher laws and people willing to enforce them before we start winning those battles. But this city is too hungry right now to do anything out of fear it will scare off employers and jobs.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline Whipjacka

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1604 on: December 24, 2012, 09:56:14 AM »
When deciding who to blame, my first question is: had the building actually decayed beyond reasonable repair?  If it had, then the recent politics with gilbert don't really matter.  The demo guy said it was unstable and about to fall, the gateway guy said he couldn't find anyone to occupy the space.  Granted these people are coming from places where you would expect these answers, but I don't disregard them completely.

I think the root of the issue is these slum lords who allow the buildings to get this way.  There needs to be more pressure on these types of property owners.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1605 on: December 24, 2012, 10:17:13 AM »
I think the root of the issue is these slum lords who allow the buildings to get this way.  There needs to be more pressure on these types of property owners.

That's certainly the root of the issue. There ought to be a "landmarks caretaker" law. If a building is declared a landmark or is in an historic district and is considered by the building department to be in a state of disrepair, then a city property tax kicks in because this is the first indication the building will become a source of added expense to the city in terms of blight, crime, safety, code enforcement and a potential demolition expense to the city. The property owner can appeal and have X days, weeks or months to bring the building up to code. If the owner does not, then the added tax kicks in. If the owner fails to pay the tax, then the city becomes the lien-holder of first priority and can then take legal action to seize the property from the owner. If the owner still does not bring the property up to code, then the city takes the property and adds it to the land bank for sale.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline Paul in Cleveland

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1606 on: December 27, 2012, 08:59:50 AM »
And it's gone!

« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 09:01:13 AM by Paul in Cleveland »

Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1607 on: December 27, 2012, 07:54:52 PM »
I think the root of the issue is these slum lords who allow the buildings to get this way.  There needs to be more pressure on these types of property owners.

That's certainly the root of the issue. There ought to be a "landmarks caretaker" law. If a building is declared a landmark or is in an historic district and is considered by the building department to be in a state of disrepair, then a city property tax kicks in because this is the first indication the building will become a source of added expense to the city in terms of blight, crime, safety, code enforcement and a potential demolition expense to the city. The property owner can appeal and have X days, weeks or months to bring the building up to code. If the owner does not, then the added tax kicks in. If the owner fails to pay the tax, then the city becomes the lien-holder of first priority and can then take legal action to seize the property from the owner. If the owner still does not bring the property up to code, then the city takes the property and adds it to the land bank for sale.

Well said and i completely second that.

Offline New World Techno Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1608 on: December 27, 2012, 08:31:23 PM »
Until I saw the hidden infrastructure of this building (Stanley Block), I didn't realize how special it was.  I spent a long time watching the demo and it is etched in my mind pretty firmly.  What I was watching was the complete and utter destruction one of the last remnants of old Cleveland.  This area was chock full of buildings like this 100 years ago.  Buildings that were built by craftsmen and each component was crafted by an artisan, from the bricks, to timbers, to the iron work.  This was the last of them...

I found myself driving around downtown Cleveland and scouring google maps for something similar.  This was it folks, nothing else left of the hundreds of buildings from this era that was in this shape.  Yes, we still have the Hilliard Building and the Central Exchange from the 1850's, but they have been completely and utterly stripped and re manufactured.  The Stanley Block was frozen in time 50 years ago and made a very interesting specimen to me...

Well, all of my friends say, it should have been demo'd. I disagree.  It was rock solid and should have been preserved.

Offline TheCOV

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1609 on: December 27, 2012, 09:06:47 PM »
Until I saw the hidden infrastructure of this building (Stanley Block), I didn't realize how special it was.  I spent a long time watching the demo and it is etched in my mind pretty firmly.  What I was watching was the complete and utter destruction one of the last remnants of old Cleveland.  This area was chock full of buildings like this 100 years ago.  Buildings that were built by craftsmen and each component was crafted by an artisan, from the bricks, to timbers, to the iron work.  This was the last of them...

I found myself driving around downtown Cleveland and scouring google maps for something similar.  This was it folks, nothing else left of the hundreds of buildings from this era that was in this shape.  Yes, we still have the Hilliard Building and the Central Exchange from the 1850's, but they have been completely and utterly stripped and re manufactured.  The Stanley Block was frozen in time 50 years ago and made a very interesting specimen to me...

Well, all of my friends say, it should have been demo'd. I disagree.  It was rock solid and should have been preserved.



What he said!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 09:09:37 PM by TheCOV »

Offline seicer

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1610 on: January 02, 2013, 09:08:00 AM »
How many historic buildings in Detroit have been razed by Gilbert companies?

Actually, he's one of the biggest property owners in Detroit and has saved a considerable number of buildings from demolition. Historic properties, at that. It's very well documented.

More photos of the demolition: http://photos.cleveland.com/plain-dealer/2012/12/demolition_starts_at_the_stanl_1.html

Offline New World Techno Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1611 on: January 04, 2013, 08:54:47 PM »
One of the things that struck me most about the former Stanley block was how thick and strong the exterior brick walls were... As I watched this amazing block being destroyed, it seemed that the walls were very similar to ancient ruins I've seen in European cities...Decide for your self after looking at these photos...

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1612 on: January 05, 2013, 02:40:52 AM »
Just kills me

Offline natininja

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1613 on: January 05, 2013, 04:06:22 AM »
Is this for casino parking?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1614 on: January 05, 2013, 09:45:53 AM »
Sometimes I really hate this country. Who do we think we are to declare that a pre-fab, erector-set parking garage is more important than a building that pre-dates many nations?

After my parents are gone, I'll have much less reason to stay in this nation that claims to love itself yet loves to erase its identity. Whether I'll have the balls to move remains to be seen.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1615 on: January 06, 2013, 11:42:55 AM »
Is this for casino parking?

Sort of, but it's a lot more complicated.  The building was neglected for decades, and in recent years any decisions about redevelopment or normal demo were paralyzed by a dispute between ownership groups (one of which was controlled by the casino).  It's actually the city demoing the property now because of its condition (ostensibly), bot the owners.

I know this seemed like a minor building to a lot of folks, but it was actually a pretty significant specimen of stone-fronted 19th century commercial architecture for Cleveland.  Much more refined, IMHO, than the brick Victorian stuff that survives.  I'm extremely bummed to see it come down.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1616 on: January 06, 2013, 05:50:18 PM »
If Cleveland did not learn the lesson that it should not tear down buildings for parking from its decades of decline, and rebirths of threatened areas like Playhouse Square, did the city learn anything?

Offline New World Techno Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1617 on: January 06, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »
(re: Stanley Block) Ok, one more comment and then I'm letting this one go.  I had to stop by one more time early this Sunday morning.  The crushed building has been scooped away, exposing the basement, which to me, is always one of the most interesting parts of an old house/building.  The sight reminded me so much of some old photos I'd seen of when the old Forest City house was demo'd for the Cleveland Union Terminal project.  I presume they'll leave the old sandstone and brick basement walls in place and just fill in the basement with fill dirt.  That will make for an interesting archeological dig at some point in the future...

The smell of pine that is always so strong at Cleveland demo sites, was very strong this morning - there was still some leftover timbers crushed in the wet snow.  I grabbed some pictures.  Then I made sure the cops on the corner were not watching me and I jumped the barricades and grabbed an in tact brick to add to my collection of bricks from recently demo's Cleveland landmarks.  Of all the bricks I've collected, this one is the heaviest and most solid. RIP Stanley Block.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1618 on: January 09, 2013, 02:41:00 PM »
Interesting back wall on the right side of the basement. Its imperfections (none of the blocks line up in any kind of order) compared to the rest of the foundation tells me this may have been part of an even older and smaller structure that occupied this site. I wonder if that was the case, and if so, what was that building?
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Demolition Watch
« Reply #1619 on: February 14, 2013, 03:15:12 PM »
Very sad and disappointing

Historic Euclid Avenue church will be razed, after vote by Cleveland Landmarks Commission

Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer
on February 14, 2013 at 4:10 PM, updated February 14, 2013 at 4:55 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A historic church at the edge of the Cleveland Clinic's main campus will be razed, after a Thursday vote by the Cleveland Landmarks Commission paved the way for demolition.

The commission's decision ends a two-year quest by the Euclid Avenue Church of God to knock down its former home, which sits empty at 8601 Euclid Ave.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/02/historic_euclid_avenue_church.html#incart_river_default