Author Topic: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad  (Read 10942 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #360 on: September 15, 2018, 04:52:45 PM »
Very cool. That would be such a great thing to have that railway reach Downtown CLE.

More info to come?

If something happens, yes.

I think you are correct. Scroll to page 152 of this book (https://books.google.com/books?id=IT1NVT1vEwUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false) and you will find the following. Start at the third paragraph.




The West Bank was owned by private developers as part of independent Ohio City. When the City leased the canal bed to the B&O, the B&O must have separately purchased this land... and built their bridges to connect it with the rest of the right-of-way.

And based on the above information as well as our discussion in the Cleveland Random Questions and Nautica threads, a 2.25-mile city-owned right of way starting at the original mouth of the Ohio & Erie Canal would approximately comprise the following....

B&O-cityowned-row by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Although I'm pretty sure that the CSX-owned tracks just north of its movable bridge below I-490 are still used by either CSX or CROW to shuttle cars between the Cleveland Works on the East Bank and CSX's West 3rd Street Yard on the West Bank, it is possible to build a passenger-only track for CVSR across the unused track space across the movable bridge to avoid these freight moves. Furthermore, CSX left an unused track between its West 3rd Yard and Steelyard Commons for CVSR to use someday. That track still remains as of July 2017 GoogleEarth images. The rails may still be OK to use, everything below them probably need to be replaced. CSX still uses the track along the river south of West 3rd Yard and the Jennings Crossing of NS, to a wye-track called Willow. Just south of this wye is where National Park Service ownership begins. A little more than a mile south of that is where CVSR operations begin.
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Online audidave

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #361 on: September 15, 2018, 07:29:05 PM »
Perhaps a train connection between the zoo and downtown with a stop at steelyard commons?  Or do you fee this might be viable doing the whole shebang and connecting it all up to the CVSR?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #362 on: September 15, 2018, 10:04:41 PM »
Difficult to serve the zoo directly because the NS and CSX rail lines past the zoo are both much more active (3-10 trains per day) than the rail line along the Cuyahoga River (a train or two per week). In past plans for a Cleveland extension, a zoo station stop would have been served by a shuttle bus/zoo tram on the long-discussed Lower Big Creek Greenway. I liked a stop near old Harvard Road but First Interstate was willing to pay for a station at the north end of Steelyard Commons, also close to Tremont.

Past plans had two different operating scenarios -- extend the existing trains (3 trains a day each way Wednesday-Sunday May-October, weekends only November-May) to downtown; or run self-propelled rail cars hourly each day as a shuttle service between downtown and Rockside Road.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 12:39:37 PM by KJP »
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #363 on: September 16, 2018, 12:52:22 PM »
Some maps I made a couple of years ago, showing what MIGHT be needed to get CVSR downtown. This includes coming up with automatic train stop signal system at Jennings Crossing and finding someone willing to staff the CSX movable bridge below I-490. Perhaps the CROW would be willing to staff it........

Cleveland-extension-text1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Cleveland-extension-text2 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Jennings Crossing-text by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr
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Offline carnevalem

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #364 on: September 16, 2018, 02:07:48 PM »
Exciting. What do you think travel times and project cost would look like?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #365 on: September 16, 2018, 04:51:39 PM »
Travel times would be slow since it's a recreational train. The current service averages 20 mph. It may take 25-30 minutes between downtown and Rockside Road. Nearly 20 years ago, the capital cost estimate for the Cleveland extension was $20 million with an annual operating subsidy of $1 million.

The chances of transportation projects happening in the USA aren't very good. When they do happen, the average time from idea to ribbon-cutting is 10 years. They're even more difficult to achieve in no-growth metro areas like ours.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Offline X

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #366 on: September 16, 2018, 06:11:32 PM »
I don't see this as primarily "transportation" as much as being about economic development/recreation.  Connecting Downtown to the CVNP would make Cleveland into that much more viable a destination spot for tourists, and a major amenity for residents who could then get to the park easier.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #367 on: September 16, 2018, 06:46:11 PM »
Except the regulations and project development process it has to follow are proscribed for transportation projects. So it doesn't matter what funding sources are tapped for it. It matters what those dollars are spent for.  So even if economic development dollars are tapped, it's still a railroad project and thus the project development process for a railroad construction project must be followed according to federal and state laws.
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Offline carnevalem

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #368 on: September 16, 2018, 11:23:17 PM »
Travel times would be slow since it's a recreational train. The current service averages 20 mph. It may take 25-30 minutes between downtown and Rockside Road. Nearly 20 years ago, the capital cost estimate for the Cleveland extension was $20 million with an annual operating subsidy of $1 million.

Hmm, I guess I misunderstood this project. I thought a commuter/regional rail line to Akron was being proposed.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #369 on: September 17, 2018, 01:02:01 AM »
No, that would probably require either a tax increase, a massive TIF with lots of station-area developments and/or a major reform of transit agencies in Cleveland and Akron. Besides, past studies have shown the most promising commuter rail route in NE Ohio would link Lorain-Aurora via downtown Cleveland.
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Offline CbusTransit

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #370 on: September 17, 2018, 09:23:16 AM »
Is there an existing study on that kjp? Id love to read it

Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #371 on: September 17, 2018, 09:53:58 AM »
Is there an existing study on that kjp? Id love to read it

On what? I've thrown a lot out there in the past few days. The financing options?
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Offline CbusTransit

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #372 on: September 17, 2018, 09:56:45 AM »
sorry, yea. The one showing Lorain to Aurora being the most promising commuter rail route

Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #373 on: September 17, 2018, 10:11:29 AM »
The summary of the 2002 study is at:
http://freepdfhosting.com/9207e94716.pdf

Other reports and studies of Ohio transit are at:
http://allaboardohio.org/transportation-planning-library/localregional-transit-planning-documents/

While Lorain-Cleveland and Aurora-Cleveland, at most Levels of Service, had lower ridership projections as separate routes than Cleveland-Akron, a combined Lorain-Aurora route was higher and had a greater chance of winning federal funds.
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Offline YABO713

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #374 on: September 17, 2018, 10:13:46 AM »
How does this relate to CVNP and its rail line

Offline KJP

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Re: Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad
« Reply #375 on: September 17, 2018, 10:29:38 AM »
It doesn't. The CVNP route was rejected in the NEOrail studies as a viable commuter rail route. It's only benefit as a commuter rail route is that it has no freight traffic (except for the Jennings Crossing) and has seen tens of millions of dollars worth of track, bridge and station upgrading by the NPS for CVSR since 2002. There's little or no online population however.
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.