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Author Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown: 84.51°  (Read 5353 times)

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Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #540 on: February 12, 2012, 09:03:00 AM »
The reason why I don't buy this whole large floor plates business is because elevator shafts and utilities must be in the center of the space somewhere, unless they push all that against the back wall, which would be pretty unusual (The Carew Tower, oddly enough, has this situation).  So if there is a residential tower, it will have its own elevator shafts that take up space in the middle of these large floor plates, aside from the elevators necessary for the office space.

I worked in a huge suburban office building that was longer than this one, and the elevator shafts and bathrooms had the effect of totally blocking the opposite side of the floor.  I didn't know the names of anyone over there, or if they even had names.  That's why I'm not buying this open floors talk, unless they are in fact planning to push all utilities against the west wall. 

Then there is the whole matter of pillars.  Again, it seems cost prohibitive to create floors of office space measuring 200x400 feet without rows of pillars.  Has Dunhumby determined the pillar ratio at which creativity becomes stifled?

Offline Cincy1

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #541 on: February 13, 2012, 05:44:34 PM »
I must say that I feel better about this since they are adding a residential component....would still like to see more height, but I understand they are looking for specific design elements.  Hopefully Kasich does not try to weasel in on this expansion....
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 05:45:26 PM by Cincy1 »

Offline Civvik

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #542 on: February 13, 2012, 11:19:44 PM »
Every time I think of massive floorplate new construction I think of this BOFA campus in uptown Charlotte. That's at least a 40,000 SF floorplate in that big piece, and probably a lot more. How do I know? Look at the big square parking garage on the east end, it's about 360x360, or over 100,000 SF. And the big office building is about half that.

Also notice that the big parking garage is lined with about 40' deep of condos on the south side. So, in many respects, these are the kinds of dimensions and "feel" that the 5th and Race site could provide.

Charlotte:

Cincinnati:

Offline jmblec2

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #543 on: February 14, 2012, 06:32:56 AM »
I must say that I feel better about this since they are adding a residential component....would still like to see more height, but I understand they are looking for specific design elements.  Hopefully Kasich does not try to weasel in on this expansion....

What makes you so sure there is a residential componet?

Online ColDayMan

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #544 on: February 17, 2012, 10:00:45 AM »
Documents reveal dunnhumby mid-rise, possible downtown Kroger



DOWNTOWN — The city of Cincinnati has opened its books on a pending deal that’s likely to bring 1,000 dunnhumbyUSA workers, 40,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space and up to 1,000 parking spaces to the long-anticipated Fifth and Race development.

It could also bring the central business district its first Kroger grocery store and up to 130 residential units.

City documents provided to the Enquirer reveal a plan for a mid-rise building for the consumer insights firm at Fifth and Race, and at Sixth and Race, residential units atop an above-ground parking garage. The two buildings would sit above underground parking and be connected by street-level retail. And one document shows a potential smaller-format test grocery store for Kroger.

More below:
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120217/BIZ/302180006/Documents-reveal-dunnhumby-mid-rise-possible-downtown-Kroger?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
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Offline atlas

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #545 on: February 17, 2012, 10:09:13 AM »
oh maaaannnn. 

Offline willalbro

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #546 on: February 17, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
Thanks for the link, I missed this when browsing news this morning.

Quote
Kroger spokesman Keith Dailey said discussions with developer Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) are preliminary and no determinations have been made. But in past years, the national grocer has quashed any talk of opening a downtown store. Not enough shoppers and no proper real estate, the company has said.

I wonder if this speaks favorably of the changing demographics downtown?

Personally I think it says that Kroger is willing to consider where in past years they weren't even gonna talk about the notion.

Offline PhattyNati

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #547 on: February 17, 2012, 10:18:01 AM »
They'd better find their "residential developer" asap!  Im going to be extremely disappointed if they dont pull it off.   

Online Jimmy_James

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #548 on: February 17, 2012, 10:28:34 AM »
Thanks for the link, I missed this when browsing news this morning.

Quote
Kroger spokesman Keith Dailey said discussions with developer Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) are preliminary and no determinations have been made. But in past years, the national grocer has quashed any talk of opening a downtown store. Not enough shoppers and no proper real estate, the company has said.

I wonder if this speaks favorably of the changing demographics downtown?

Personally I think it says that Kroger is willing to consider where in past years they weren't even gonna talk about the notion.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this is something dunnhumby was pushing for.  Kroger is a part owner and important client, and the two companies have incredibly close ties.  I know absolutely nothing beyond that, but if dunnhumby thinks they can attract better talent by having residential and a grocery, along with a vibrant street space, I could see Kroger being willing to accomodate that.

Offline TheHemroid

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #549 on: February 17, 2012, 10:55:38 AM »
There's still going to be a highrise above it correct?

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #550 on: February 17, 2012, 11:02:32 AM »
They'd better find their "residential developer" asap!  Im going to be extremely disappointed if they dont pull it off.   

Yep! The relevant part of the article:
Quote
The residential component would only happen if a developer is identified soon, Leeper said. He doesn’t want construction still under way once dunnhumbyUSA moves in, which is scheduled for 2014.

“Everyone would like to do residential development there, but ideally, we construct simultaneously,” Leeper said. “I don’t want to do residential at the expense of dunnhumbyUSA.”

Offline jmblec2

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #551 on: February 17, 2012, 11:30:23 AM »
There's still going to be a highrise above it correct?

It almost sounds like the plan is to have two buildings on top of the parking garage surrounded by retail. but I could be wrong, the article is confusing in that aspect. Edit: Not sure how tall they would be as "mid rise"

"City documents provided to the Enquirer reveal a plan for a mid-rise building for the consumer insights firm at Fifth and Race, and at Sixth and Race, residential units atop an above-ground parking garage. The two buildings would sit above underground parking and be connected by street-level retail."
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:32:13 AM by jmblec2 »

Offline seicer

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #552 on: February 17, 2012, 11:36:42 AM »
Exciting times. The addition of a Kroger will signify that downtown is a work-play-live destination. These decisions are not easy - Dayton once had a downtown Kroger, and Columbus has two urban Krogers, so the idea of an urban Kroger isn't exactly new. But with the addition of The Banks, the new apartments coming online along 4th, and the revitalization of OTR, a central Kroger that offers a variety of products will be great. It appears that it will be a scaled down version of a typical store, which is great - no one needs a Marketplace down there, but one that sells the basics, with fresh foods and "take home" meals, will be good.

Offline The_Cincinnati_Kid

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #553 on: February 17, 2012, 11:46:05 AM »
I wouldn't put too much stock in residential not happening if it doesn't happen before 2014.  It would be incredibly short sighted not to at least build the platform for future residential development after Dunnhumby is moved in and settled, and 3CDC seems to be a smart group.  In a perfect world, yes it would be best for all the construction to take place simultaneously, but it is certainly not a must in my opinion.

Offline BlackBengal

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #554 on: February 17, 2012, 11:49:59 AM »
What would prevent 3CDC from being the developer on the residential portion of the project? 

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #555 on: February 17, 2012, 11:51:14 AM »
It's a really great location for a downtown Kroger, too. A block from Fountain Square, easy walk from many offices, etc. (As opposed to somewhere like the Banks.)

Its proximity to offices guarantees its success. I think the variable will be its hours (especially on weekends).

Online ColDayMan

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #556 on: February 17, 2012, 11:51:29 AM »
And that downtown Dayton Kroger had NO ONE living around it and it STILL worked.  Dayton back in the early 90's didn't have much of an actual residential population but it worked because:

A). It served "greater downtown."
B). It had a 5-story parking garage on top with large elevators for shopping carts
C). Across from the bus hub
D). Attached to the (now defunct) Dayton Arcade
E). Obviously many more office workers vs. today

And again, it had barely any residential population (certainly none within 5 blocks) and it was quite successful.  The problem is that when it became popular for shoplifting, Kroger pulled out and it became a Schear's Market (former local grocery market).  Then it just became a Kinko's when all the Schear's Markets went bankrupt.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:52:40 AM by The ColDayMan »
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Offline Rabbit Hash

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #557 on: February 17, 2012, 12:11:18 PM »
I can't go back and re-read it now but IIRC, it said 130 residential units.  10/floor = 13 stories on top of retail and grarage.  Just a thought.

Offline seanian513

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #558 on: February 17, 2012, 02:55:30 PM »
So far it doesn't sound very impressive, at this point it sounds as if it is just going to blend in.  I know it is still in the early stages and can turn out different than what information we are given at this time.  It was always said that a building that had a signature, or was more impressive for that site was going to come about.

Online taestell

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #559 on: February 17, 2012, 03:00:52 PM »
I don't think we need another skyscraper at this point in time. A floor of retail w/ a grocery store, a few floors of office space, and a few floors of residential would be perfect.

Offline morganjr

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #560 on: February 17, 2012, 03:14:46 PM »
I am honestly just happy that this site is finally getting developed. I do wish though, like previously stated, this building would have more of an impact on the skyline. I heard today that a 20 plus story building is being proposed for covington that will include residential. One would think if covington can land a high-rise residential building, that this site could as well(or at least be able to have the current proposed element of residential in place in time for construction)

Offline atlas

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #561 on: February 17, 2012, 03:15:12 PM »
I'll be happy as long as the building brings a strong presence.  A 4-5 floor building wouldn't suffice.  Something 15-20 and up would. 

Offline OTR

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #562 on: February 17, 2012, 04:50:16 PM »
I'll be happy as long as the building brings a strong presence.  A 4-5 floor building wouldn't suffice.  Something 15-20 and up would.

Same. Anything under 10 would be underwhelming.

Offline MissinOhio

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #563 on: February 17, 2012, 10:16:58 PM »
I am honestly just happy that this site is finally getting developed. I do wish though, like previously stated, this building would have more of an impact on the skyline. I heard today that a 20 plus story building is being proposed for covington that will include residential. One would think if covington can land a high-rise residential building, that this site could as well(or at least be able to have the current proposed element of residential in place in time for construction)

Isn't most of Covington's skyline going to be vacant anyway?  Cincinnati already has a great skyline.  Skyscrapers do not make a city, street level activity adds to everything.  So while Cincinnati builds its streetcar and connects all of its major development happening around the streetcar, Covington can build its 20 story tower while most of its downtown sits empty.

Offline jdm00

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #564 on: February 18, 2012, 08:24:07 AM »
Yeah, I haven't heard about this proposed 20-story tower in Covington.  Isn't that what was already proposed years ago with the Ovation project that is still not started?

Offline jdm00

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #565 on: February 18, 2012, 08:27:04 AM »
My bad, I saw the link in the other thread to what you were talking about--three responses to a RFP by the City of Covington. 

Offline KyleCincy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #566 on: February 18, 2012, 01:31:38 PM »
This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.
  • 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
  • Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
  • NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
  • 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
  • Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
  • OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
  • The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.
So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

There are still plenty of vacant parcels that could support high-rise residential:

- St. Xavier Park area (Sycamore both north and south of Seventh and extending north of Seventh all the way to Main)
- NE corner of Seventh and Vine and half of the entire block east of Vine
- NW corner of Sixth and Sycamore (both the vacant lot and the lot that is currently wasted on the single-story Red Fox diner)
- mid-block east side of Main between Sixth and Seventh (infill could be larger part of massive vacant lot next to St. X)
- SW corner of Ninth and Sycamore directly north of the Power Building (though this would be across the intersection from the jail)
- SE corner of Walnut and Eighth
- the vacant land on Eighth St. that the old Blue Wisp was on
- NW corner of Race and Garfield Place
- mass vacant land between One Lytle Place and the PP bridge on both sides of the street (originally slated for condo high-rises but scuttled due to the economy)
- perhaps even some decent-sized infill on the SW corner of Fifth and Broadway

Not to mention the mass amounts of vacant space at and near the Court/Elm/Central area. And I wouldn't count out residential being at least part of this Fifth & Race development either.

And why can't the lots near the courthouse and especially City Hall ever be high-rise residential? What's the roadblock?

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two.

Ahhhhh has no one read anything????  They physically can't fit at the Banks site.  It is a MAXIMUM 250,000 square foot building over 15 floors (revisions in construction limited the buildings size from the original plan).  That is about 16,000 square feet per floor.  They want 250,000 square feet TODAY and to own the building.  That means, if 5 years from now they hit their 1000 staff goal (currently 515 employees) they might need to move again.  And who would buy a building only to have to move 5 or so years later since it has no room for growth.

Dunnhumby has now on several occasions very clearly said they want large open floors, hence they are going with 40,000 square foot floors instead of the 16,000 square foot floors they would have been limited to at the Banks.

It's lovely to fantasize about what's best for downtown.  But we have to face reality and Dunnhumby was not going to move to the Banks site.  Period.

Finally- this is not the end of the world.  The old enquirer building, Barlett co. building, etc. are all empty.  Updating beautiful old office buildings to residential is all the market is interested in.  No one is taking old c-class office space from 120 year old empty buildings and making into new apartments. 

Finally, if anyone watches citicable religiously, yes, guiltily pleasure, the City manager said residential is still part of the plan.

Excellent post FWIW. There are still tons of old Class C buildings that be converted in Residential. Fifth & Race has the footprint Dunnhumby requires.

Offline seanian513

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #567 on: February 18, 2012, 10:58:29 PM »
I am honestly just happy that this site is finally getting developed. I do wish though, like previously stated, this building would have more of an impact on the skyline. I heard today that a 20 plus story building is being proposed for covington that will include residential. One would think if covington can land a high-rise residential building, that this site could as well(or at least be able to have the current proposed element of residential in place in time for construction)

If this is the one you are referring to regarding a new tower in Covington, I have two quotes from news articles, 1st Quote: "A distinctive glass 28-story tower with hotel rooms, luxury apartments and two restaurants – one on its rooftop, one at its base." 2nd Quote:  "A proposal from the Boca Hotel Group called "The Sail Project" would include a 28-story mixed use building that would include 128 hotel rooms, 136 luxury apartments and two unique restaurant concepts. The Sail Project is proposed to be situated over the Overlook at the north end of Madison Avenue. The total cost of the development is $49.5 million. Boca proposes a construction start date of early 2013 and an opening at the end of 2014."

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #568 on: February 18, 2012, 11:56:48 PM »
NKY needs to work on making the trip over the bridges more pleasant for people not in cars. They really don't need to be building towers right now. Especially no more towers with no ground-floor retail and big lawns.

Gotta say, I don't hear people talking about NKY anymore in terms of being a model for getting things done. I think the faultiness of that is finally starting to sink in.

Offline seanian513

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown - Fifth & Race Redevelopment
« Reply #569 on: February 19, 2012, 10:58:40 AM »
I don't understand where you say Covington doesn't need to put that in.  It's actually a very good thing for Covington to put this 28 story tower in.  It's always good to see more residential going into the downtown areas of both Covington and Cincinnati.  Both sides of the river should thrive to keep a vibrant area as a whole.  This is why it's important that the residential portion slated for the 5th & Race site have as much residential as possible; the more the better for a healthy downtown.  It makes for a thriving area when you make sure you have more residential added to the mix.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 11:03:59 AM by seanian513 »