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Author Topic: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion  (Read 7554 times)

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Offline clvlndr

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Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« on: May 05, 2005, 01:58:50 PM »
I'm just wondering what happens to the Interstate 90 designation if, in fact, Mayor Jane is successful in converting our hallowed lakefront freeway into local boulevard with at-grade street (& pedestrian) crossings, traffic lights and the like.  Wouldn’t I-90 have to be re-routed?  (like say, following 271 (south) to 480 to 77 to 490 (then home again)?  How does that work?  Would there be any adverse affects to our region in terms of, say, Fed maintenance and expansion money (not that we NEED any more freeways around Cleveland, but you get the point)?.  Are Federally designated interstates like, say, FAA designated airports (s'pose all of those are such otherwise they can't possibly be allowed to operate), in the sense that, a city/region/state needs strict permission from the Feds to downgrade an interstate since it (probably) is designated as a major interstate (duh! -- hence its name) carrier of freight and even military equipment?

And while you're on it, please feel free to opine on Jane's grandiose lakefront plan.  Is it smart or a waste of time?  Is it doable?  And will it really have the positive impact on Cleveland's lakeshore she claims?

Anybody?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 10:21:23 PM by ColDayMan »

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2005, 02:14:04 PM »
Well, isn't it just the shoreway that will be downgraded?  Once the westside shoreway links up with I-90, the boulevard will hug 90 until it reaches Gordon Park.  Am I wrong?  I don't think that 90 will be touched by this plan.

Offline smackem81

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2005, 02:21:31 PM »
Dead mans curve is where I-90 curves away,and the shorway continues west. I also dont belive route 2(the shoreway) is a federaly designated highway as it turns into a regular roadway as it reaches perry in the east and in toledo in the west

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2005, 02:33:17 PM »
i believe rta and ciperman have vague plans to expand the ecp bus thingy out there when that project happens. not sure, i think i read that.

i say run the wfl rapid track west down the middle of the new calmed boulevard and continue it down clifton to w117th. train to the beach! train to the beach!

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2005, 02:46:01 PM »
Could the present waterfront line go from Muni lot to Tower city, then go to the W. 25th stop via the red line bridge and then (somehow) link to the lakefront blvd?

Offline Equillibrius

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2005, 07:16:15 PM »
Quote
i believe rta and ciperman have vague plans to expand the ecp bus thingy out there when that project happens. not sure, i think i read that.

i say run the wfl rapid track west down the middle of the new calmed boulevard and continue it down clifton to w117th. train to the beach! train to the beach!

RTA once talked about running BRT down Clifton a few years ago.  I think KJP or someone else mentioned this.  And I agree with expanding the Waterfront Line. The west side needs its own light rail route, dagnabbit!

Quote
Could the present waterfront line go from Muni lot to Tower city, then go to the W. 25th stop via the red line bridge and then (somehow) link to the lakefront blvd?

The W. 25th rapid station is a little too far away from the Shoreway.  The line would have to make a whole lot of twists and turns to get down to 25th and the back up to the lake.  It would make for an interesting route, though.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2005, 09:23:13 PM »
Well, isn't it just the shoreway that will be downgraded? Once the westside shoreway links up with I-90, the boulevard will hug 90 until it reaches Gordon Park. Am I wrong? I don't think that 90 will be touched by this plan.

I'm not really sure either, but I kinda thought the prop'd Boulevard would replace I-90 from Dead Man's Curve/the Inner Belt to around Gordon Park, where the Shoreway jogs inward from the Lake (at ritzy Bratenhal) and technically turns into the Lakeland Freeway. I didn't get the impression that the Blvd and 90 would coexist.  Again, I could be wrong.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2005, 09:45:09 PM »
[RE: waterfront line extension to the West]

Agreed.  I think BRT would be horrible for Clifton Blvd; can you imagine marring that majestic broad blvd of lovely homes and old brownstone apts w/ BRT-type stations?  I know, some will say, hey look at Shaker Blvd and Van Aken and even Fairmount (that one time had streetcars in its blvd).  But it's much different when the trolleys are their 1st (and I emphasize TROLLEYS not diesel/electric buses) and homes follow, not vice versa.  BRT’s a farce and with Rapid rail running near that corridor that could be cheaply  extended – relative to building a whole new right of way, choosing a BRT extension would be a total, el-cheap-o cop out – but don’t put it past Joe C, who’s suddenly become the nation’s biggest BRT champion – figures, huh?  (Joe despises the Waterfront Line, in case you missed it)

I'm not sure, though, whether extending the Waterfront line along the West shoreline is the way to go; maybe.  Yes, I know that empty subway deck of the Veteran’s Memorial Bridge looks too attractive to pass up.  It's just that this western corridor not a particularly wide transit-less area before the lake line slopes inward toward the Red Line stop @ West Blvd/Cudell.  However, I am all for extending Rapid service from their westward through the heart of Lakewood to Rocky River and beyond over the lightly used NS tracks, where service is so light I'm sure RTA could strike a deal to share tracks in a day passenger/night freight deal -- although I suppose sleepless Lakewood residents along that stretch would be none-to-pleased at that set up.  Such a NS Lakewood line would give Lakewood riders a speedy shot directly into Tower City as well as an airport transfer option at W. Blvd.

Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2005, 12:44:10 AM »
what's so bad about BRT if done properly?

lrt has dedicated lanes, defined stations, and overhead catenary (at least cleveland's in this case)
BRT (silver line) has dedicated lanes, defined stations, overhead catenary, signal timing, and damn cheaper

(KJP or anyone feel free to correct me, i'm living up to my title now)

Offline Matches

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2005, 11:36:12 AM »
I believe one argument is that "a bus is still a bus," but I'll let some of the other BRT-doubters explain in more depth if they want.

As for the boulevard and how it relates to I-90..  My initial impression was that the Lakefront Boulevard would basically commence at the shoreway where it splits at Dead Man's curve.  That would allow I-90 to remain I-90 since that's where it turns south.

But I'm looking at a map on the Cleveland Planning Commission site and it appears that they are indeed proposing that the boulevard go all the way out eastward to Gordon Park (sort of branching out at the northen end of MLK.  But the map shows what appears to be the proposed boulevard running alongside the currently existing freeway along the lakefront.  They propose moving the i-90 interchange at E. 55th south towards the railroad tracks (which, incidentally, are denoted as a waterfront line extension east out to Collinwood)..  The interstate then swings back north around Kirtland park before turning south at a more gently-arched innerbelt curve.

This layout confuses me because I don't see how a lakefront boulvevard is going to co-exist situated north of the existing highway since I-90 hugs the shoreline so tightly as it does in a lot of spots.  It seems physically impossible given the current geography unless the interstate gets cut down to 2-3 lanes apiece.  Is the boulevard just a glorified version of that north Marginal road?  Especially just north of that big powerplant where unless they extend the shorelne out a bit there's definitely not enough room for anything that can be called a "boulevard".    And even then I'm not sure how "pedestrian friendly" such a boulevard would be with 4-6 lanes of interstate highway flying by just something like 100 feet south of it. 

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2005, 12:09:19 PM »
The perception is that BRT is a poor-man's light-rail line. And, Pope, your use of the word "cheaper" than light rail transit is correct in one way -- it's usually a cheap imitiation of rail. And, depending on how either is designed, the net fiscal impact of a BRT line may not be better than an LRT. Too often, transit agencies give too much weight to the capital and operating cost side, and not enough to the operating revenues and economic impact.

Back to issue of the Lakefront Boulevard... Technically, the Shoreway ends at I-90's soon-to-be-eased "Dead Man's Curve." There, it will have a new interchange with the Lakefront Boulevard, which will continue east to the Gordon Park area (even underway the Lakefront Parkway option).

All questions can be answered by looking at the city's maps or PowerPoint presentation at:

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/lakefront/cpc.html

KJP
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Offline Matches

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2005, 01:32:20 PM »
KJP the question is, how is the Lakefront Boulevard going to extend east to Gordon Park if the highway is sitting right there.

The maps show both roadways running what I will call "ridiculously close" to one another and often in places where it does not appear geographically possible.  There are a couple spots between dead man's curve and Gordon Park where the highway runs as little as 20-40 feet from the shore:



As far as I can tell from the maps on the planning commission's website, the power plant site just south of the highway in that photo will not be touched, so where is there room for a boulevard, is the question.  Is the shoreline going to be extended out somehow to make room, or is the highway going to shrink?  I kind of sense that this portion of the boulevard, with so little room for development since it's right up against the lake, would be more for purposes of access for near east siders coming by car to the alleged development that would happen west of the airport.

Offline smackem81

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2005, 02:05:27 PM »
"The shoreway" aka route 2 aka lakeland parkway, is combined with interstate 90, from the 90/2 interchange on the border of euclid and wickliff, they seperate at dead mans curve. The proposed shoreway changes occur at dead mans curve and to the west, i dont think it is phsyicaly possible to change anything from dead mans curve and to the east, nor do i think there are any plans for that part.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2005, 08:14:08 PM »
Preach, KJP!!  BRT as alternative for rail BECAUSE it's cheap is a farce auto interests and conservatives (one in the same?) are shoving down our throats. Boston's a perfect example of over planning.  This city rates as my #2 transit system in the country, after NYC, but they've been marching in reverse in recent years – and let’s not even discuss that ghastly “Big Dig.”  Boston was so anxious to tear down the old Orange Line el over Washington Street, they didn't stop and think how damaging to ridership relocating that line to a railroad ROW at the edge of its original corridor, they were forced to develop the "Silver Line" BRT along Washington St.

Well, guess what?  Savvy "T" riders shun BRT buses as if they virus quarantines and Orange Line totals have been hammered.  So no, Pope, I don't see BRT as a viable alternative to rail in any context.  And if the goal is to save money, why bother in the 1st place?  -- and BRT ain't cheap either; not for meager "benefits" it reaps for cities.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2005, 08:23:45 PM »
As for the updated (Nov 04) lakefront slideshow, I'm sorry, call me Mr. Wet Blanket.  Is it just me, but don't those "goals" seem very amorphous and intangible, and isn’t it rather late in the process for us to still be at this point with nothing of substance really happening yet?  I mean, this has been Jane Campbell’s centerpiece program since early on in her administration  Also, didn't too many of those artist renderings have a bunch of cars in them?  And wasn’t there a good deal of emphasis on auto access – again, maybe it’s just paranoid me… There were none w/ Waterfront line trains in any artist rendering even though the plan gives some vague lip service to expanding the line eastward.  Did you notice that?

And what about the most vexing problems that must be addressed and solved before anything can really get going, like relocating the Port Authority (what's the latest since Jane's big blowup w/ the County Commissioners?).  What about the cleanup of the brownfields -- mentioned as a program.  The question is -- who pays?  I don't know much about Superfund, even if it's still a viable program, so maybe someone can enlighten me.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2005, 06:28:44 AM »
Does anyone know when construction is supposed to start?  Also, I yet to truly understand the location of the new boulevard.  As I drive down the shoreway, I see a bluff, trees and railroad tracks.  Where will the boulevard be located in reference to those items? 

The list of projects in the print edition looks promising.  They are quite vague in their descriptions.  I think the Westinghouse electric area has the greatest potential


Developers bet Shoreway rehab will bring boom
Monday, August 01, 2005
Tom Breckenridge
Plain Dealer Reporter
Veteran architect Robert Maschke has an eye for art and for the next big thing in the Detroit-Shoreway neighborhood.

He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars converting a greasy spoon into an art gallery and offices at West 64th Street and Detroit Avenue, anticipating the ripple effects of a transformed West Shoreway.

By 2010, the three-mile stretch of 50-mph high way, rued by West Siders as a concrete hurdle to the lake shore, should debut as a friendly, 35-mph boulevard, featuring multiple intersections and a parallel bike path to the north.
   
For the first time in 50-plus years, West Side neighborhoods will have direct access to Lake Erie by foot, car and bike.

"It's the reason I bought this building," Maschke said last week. "Cleveland can reclaim a lakefront it's turned its back on.

"I think it's going to have a real accelerating effect on the neighborhood."

That's what city officials count on. The West Shoreway project stands as the first, big-ticket investment in Mayor Jane Campbell's 50-year plan to redevelop eight miles of forbidding shoreline...



To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

tbreckenridge@plaind.com, 216-999-4695
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 09:53:53 AM by McCleveland »

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2005, 07:23:43 AM »
^I agree - imagine having a loft-style condo in the Westinghouse building and having access to a rooftop deck there. Unimpeded views of both the lake and downtown that currently only exist in the Gold Coast.

I think in some cases they may extend some of the streets northward to create the intersections. If they didn't they'd have to mow down places like Tillman Park, etc. and I doubt that's the plan.
 

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2005, 08:58:50 AM »


heres a good diagram of what this article is talking about

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2005, 09:11:15 AM »
If you want to see a detailed vision of the Lakefront Boulevard and proposed development sites, check out the Cleveland City Planning Commission's website at http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/lakefront/cpc.html and click on "transportation" projects.

KJP
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Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2005, 09:34:47 AM »
thanks KJP,

still, it seems hard to determine how the lakefront will be connected when there are still the tracks and the bluff.  They need to start working on this now so that I have a better idea of what it will look like. :)

Offline conovercourt

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2005, 09:41:24 AM »
Fantastic!


With the Rapid , and the I-90 freeway, West Side residents are well connected to Downtown. The Shoreway is redundant.  Maybe Cleveland can atone for some of its sins from the destruction of West Blvd. , Lorain and other streets for I-90.


Now, let's see some highrise residence towers to expand the Cleveland skyline beyond Downtown!



...dreaming in Dixie ...

Offline conovercourt

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2005, 09:42:52 AM »
PS
Wimwar,

Won't the new boulevard replace the current roadway?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2005, 10:07:39 AM »
Yes, but is it going to be exactly in the same location?  In some places, for example, it could hug the bluff and create more space for Edgewater park.

Offline urbanlife

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2005, 10:09:50 AM »
Are there any plans to incorporate a future extension of blue or green line to serve this area? 

It seems with all of the proposed development from the PD map, that this would be a good opportunity to try and get a line over the river with stops that roughly approximate with Detroit/Superior possible underground station at w.25 (or above ground at w28) and then above ground out to 45th, 54th, 65th/Edgewater, and 76th. 

Even if the right of ways were built into the middle of the new blvd that would be a start.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2005, 06:48:41 PM »
The Lakefront Boulevard is probably going to be in the same location. Look at the development sites that open up between the boulevard and the tracks. And, for access to the south side of the tracks, I would think the extension of West 65th Street northward will be quite beneficial.

There are no plans for incorporating a rail transit line into the new boulevard. Plans are tol add transit stops for existing buses. Transitioning one lane in each direction as bus-only lanes shouldn't be too difficult, creating a defacto BRT.

KJP
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2005, 07:05:05 PM »
KJP,

Do you know when construction is supposed to start?

Offline A 2 da K

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2005, 12:09:17 AM »
City Says Boulevard To Be Created By 2010

CLEVELAND -- The redevelopment of the west Shoreway into a pedestrian-friendly boulevard may soon be a reality. The plan will make access to the waterfront easier for residents of the Detroit Shoreway neighborhood.

Right now, Lake Erie and Edgewater Park are blocked by speeding cars and barbed wire fencing.

But the city says that by 2010, the plan is to create a boulevard with traffic slowing to 35 mph, pedestrian crosswalks to the lake, a bike path, street lights and new proposed housing.

The new elements will mix with what is already there, places like the Tillman Park condos and restaurants like The Harp.

Planners say the Detroit Shoreway project will also make the city a major player for future development, with big projects planned for Whiskey Island while working alongside the Cleveland Metroparks System.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2005, 05:53:55 PM »
Great to hear that they are going to move fairly quickly on this.  2010 isn't that far off, really.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2005, 06:01:21 PM »
Will they start or finish in 2010?  How long would construction take?

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Shoreway Boulevard Conversion
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2005, 09:17:49 PM »
I think that no "improved" rail options along the roadway is wrong.

Rapid Rail could be marketed as a quick way to get downtown, now that the "shoreway" will become a "boulevard".

Improved bus service (dedicted lane) on this roadway doesn't make those that use it now for a quick trip down town happy.

Connecting our neighborhoods and making transportation a FIRST CHOICE EVERYDAY PART OF LIFE instead of an ALTERNATIVE is smart and will increase development.