Author Topic: Charter school scams  (Read 2388 times)

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Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2018, 10:34:09 AM »
Are you more upset with Deters or more disappointed in the priest for not being who everyone thought him to be.

I'm upset that the Catholic school culture in Cincinnati has so much momentum that nobody who was part of it can step back and look at it with any objectivity.  Unfortunately the products of this city's "best" schools are often its biggest snakes.  They get away with stuff because they're "from good families" and used to be an altar boy at St. Williams, or wherever.  Even Chris Smitherman has re-written his upbringing and now claims that he was raised Catholic and was an altar boy.  And all the old Catholics are sending him money.  I see his campaign literature all over the place at the old people's home. 

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2018, 02:52:17 PM »
Jake - Do you regret your St. James and St. X educations, or is it animosity toward growing up Catholic? I don't think they make that stuff up about their upbringings. Cranley for example uses that as a source of his pride and who he is. He is more proud about winning the 8th grade CYO basketball championship than about graduating from Harvard Law. When he talks about St. William, he is being authentic. Shouldn't we hope for more authentic moments like that.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2018, 02:53:36 PM »
It was not a state decision but a court decision that allowed this. It does not foster income inequality in fact helps to cure it. As pointed out earlier, you will never be able to desegregate schools in a way that creates equality when families can create geographic districts that fit their socio economic status. The Catholic and other private schools are more urban and can level this gap by providing choice and opportunity to students without taxing existing transportation systems.

So we've identified another hard barrier which, so long as it exists, will preclude equality of opportunity in this country.

So what's your proposal?  One statewide school district (unionized, of course), outlaw private schools, and all children assigned by lottery among all schools within a given driving distance of their home?

Of course all those proposals would be non-starters anyway as the US Supreme Court has ruled on many of those very issues already.

Offline Robuu

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2018, 03:48:33 PM »
I don't have all the answers, and any attempt at a solution would take decades to tweak out unintended consequences (as those who have supported school vouchers are finding out). For the geographic/socioeconomic segregation issue: I think there is a lot to the Mount Laurel decisions, and what was found in the NJ state constitution should also be seen in the federal constitution by anyone who sees within it a mandate for equality (of opportunity or condition). A bonafide remedy there would most likely be some strong form of inclusive zoning, mandated on a federal level.

For the school districts, I'm not sure. At a minimum, there couldn't be district boundaries, as they inherently create an uneven playing field. If they didn't have that effect, few would feel strongly about their removal.

My real recommendation, and the point I was alluding to, isn't about policy but about the mental disposition we should have when thinking about these and other issues: that the premise of equality of opportunity is invalid. It doesn't exist, people would fight against implementing it as aggressively as they would fight for anything, and any time it's implicitly or explicitly used as a premise to justify a policy, that policy should be looked upon with great suspicion. Additionally, when someone espouses the belief that equality of opportunity should exist, questions about school districts and inclusive zoning (or other issues related to geographic/socioeconomic segregation) may be good litmus tests to gauge how serious they are -- how open are they to eliminating these barriers, or are they even willing to admit they function as barriers. (Again, my contention is they both preclude EoO.) People have a lot of emotions surrounding their schools and neighborhoods, so it's an area ripe for cognitive bias, which also makes it a good area for self-reflection.

Offline Foraker

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2018, 04:04:03 PM »
^ It doesn't. It is just a lie perpetuated by the teachers unions to get more funding for public schools and away from private schools. As Courts have ruled for many years now in Ohio, school funding goes with the student and not the district and is allocated on a per student basis set by the state. This is why my kid gets to ride the school bus to his Catholic school as part of our tax dollars. This is very fair and reasonable and makes sense.

For those who argue otherwise, keep in mind that after 12 years when my kid is out of the system, we are still paying taxes in to the school system, and the public schools are the beneficiary of that.

There are a lot of problems with the current funding system.  One is that it's not just state dollars that follow a student from public school to a charter school.  My local district loses a few thousand dollars per kid living in the district that goes to a charter because the amount that the state requires the district to pay out is less than what the state provides the district in the first place.

Another problem is that losing one or two kids per grade often is not enough to reduce the number of teachers that the public school has to provide.  So the public school district is losing income while being forced to maintain expenses.  Let's also remember that private schools can dismiss a kid for behavior problems at any time and the public schools have an obligation to continue to try to educate that child.  So public schools have more kids with learning disabilities and behavior problems and these things cost more to deal with.

And every citizen, whether you have children or not, benefits from having quality public schools.  Many learning disabilities can be overcome, with the right help, so that the students become productive (taxpaying) members of society. Kids whose behavioral problems are addressed early are less likely to be a problem for society later on.  Quality schools mean a quality labor pool for businesses to draw from.  Or to start new businesses!

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2018, 04:17:55 PM »
^ The public school is not losing out on any money. They get the money based on the number of children they educate. I hate that argument because it really shows what public schools and school districts think about their students. It shows that they are not individuals but they are merely tax money for the schools.  It was never about educating them, as that argument demonstrates (and it is one that is spouted by the teachers unions and their cronies all the time) it is solely about getting more money in their district at the expense of opportunities for children.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2018, 04:22:52 PM »
Robuu: Sure.  The whole equality-of-opportunity vs. equality-of-outcome distinction was always somewhat porous.  And by definition, government-enforced "equality of opportunity" would involve taking opportunities away from my children, because they have opportunities by virtue of their birth that simply cannot be replicated by any level of government expenditure or regulation.  A stable, nuclear family with five degrees between the two parents.  Reading almost every night before bed.  Heck, genetic advantages simply by having no major health issues.

I'm all for giving children good school buildings.  But urban public school districts often have amazing facilities, physically, and it doesn't really help their rankings all that much.  (Columbus East High School may be one of the poster children for that in this state right now.)

I'm all for giving children good teachers.  But credentialing standards are the same in Columbus Public and in Bexley.  Salaries are sometimes actually higher in urban districts in order to attract teachers to unpopular posts.

I'm all for giving children good libraries.  Heck, I'm all for giving adults good libraries, even in the age of Google and Wikipedia.  With certain caveats, I'm all for giving children good technology in the classroom.  (To the extent I'm against it, I'm actually against it for all children.  And so are some of the tech heavyweights in Silicon Valley that actually produce that technology.  You'd be surprised at how intentionally low-tech some Silicon Valley multimillionaires want their children's education to be.)

But there are limits to how much "opportunity" can be made equal when that's such an expansive term.  Peer groups represent a source of opportunity but you will face ferocious resistance at forcibly reengineering peer groups via busing or any other coercive means.  Stable families, of course, are a major source of opportunity (a middle class child from a stable household will very open outperform divorced parents even when both divorced parents are making outstanding incomes); there is no way to "redistribute" that.  With a theoretically infinite budget, you could hire private tutors for every single child in the country, but when I teach my son letters and words and numbers, I have the advantage in keeping his attention that I'm his dad.  So on and so forth.  Trying to compensate for social capital with economic capital is very frequently a wasted effort--and yet disparities of social capital necessarily mean disparities of opportunity.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 04:25:31 PM by Gramarye »

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2018, 04:44:11 PM »
This is what the whole white/male/wealthy/etc privilege garbage arguments are all about. It focuses on trying to level the playing field by taking away advantages that others have in order to "level" the playing field from the beginning. 1) that is asinine and it sets everyone back when you do that and 2) there is never going to be a way to level the playing field. Everyone is an individual and has a different perspective and outlook and thoughts from the next person.  I look to my own family. My oldest child has certain advantages that my youngest will not have or middle because of his birth order. My youngest will have certain advantages that my oldest will not have because of her birth order, and the middle child benefits from his birth order in ways the other children cannot. They each bring different perspectives and viewpoints into life because of this and that affects how they will end up as adults.

Take this small sample and now extrapolate it out over the entire economy, now you add into the fact people come from different regions and have different experiences growing up. Someone who grows up with parents who are trained in classical piano are more likely to have the opportunity to do the same in their lifetime than my kids who are not as exposed to that.  You cannot create the equality people are searching for when you have individuals who come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2018, 05:01:42 PM »
Jake - Do you regret your St. James and St. X educations, or is it animosity toward growing up Catholic? I don't think they make that stuff up about their upbringings. Cranley for example uses that as a source of his pride and who he is. He is more proud about winning the 8th grade CYO basketball championship than about graduating from Harvard Law. When he talks about St. William, he is being authentic. Shouldn't we hope for more authentic moments like that.

Are you baiting me or what?  Cranley is a fake Catholic and a fake west sider.  He was a conman from a tender age. 

The best teacher at my Catholic grade school was the gifted & talented teacher.  Per Ohio law, the class had to be held in a building near the school that wasn't owned by the school.  She played Frank Zappa records to a dozen 5th graders.  Do I really need to say anything beyond that?   

You'd leave that peak into that broader world and upon reentering the school you'd be back to sports, jocks, sports, jocks.  Anti-intellectualism.  Pep talks.  Shibboleths.  Family rivalries. 


Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2018, 05:08:17 PM »
^ Not trying to bait you, just trying to understand your experience better. I was not aware that St. X was primarily about jocks, sports and anti-intellectualism. I know there is that everywhere but a school of 1600 kids is bound to have some of everything.

Is there a network in town that St X alums are well connected with, sure. But I think that some of this stuff about Deters in Cranley's pocket or not charging the priest because he was a St. X alum does not add up. I am sure that if you broke the law, Deters is not going easy on you because you went to his high school :)

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2018, 05:25:21 PM »
^ Not trying to bait you, just trying to understand your experience better. I was not aware that St. X was primarily about jocks, sports and anti-intellectualism. I know there is that everywhere but a school of 1600 kids is bound to have some of everything.

I was talking about my grade school, which was stunningly provincial.  But maybe if it had been a for-profit enterprise our test scores would have been higher. 

 


Is there a network in town that St X alums are well connected with, sure. But I think that some of this stuff about Deters in Cranley's pocket or not charging the priest because he was a St. X alum does not add up. I am sure that if you broke the law, Deters is not going easy on you because you went to his high school :)

I have never met Joe Deters but one of my relatives works in his office and another has golfed with him for 30 years.  So I have a better chance of getting charges dropped/reduced than the average schmuck.  But Joe isn't running for re-election so I need to execute my crime spree soon. 

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Charter school scams
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2018, 05:41:20 PM »
Sometimes I do wish I stayed at the souped-up "brain school" I attended from 2nd-4th grades all the way through high school so that as the grades progressed the attention wouldn't have been all on the jocks and trailer park kids like it was at the public school. But we moved too far away from the intellectual center of gravity of Columbus which is located in the Cool Crescent. Finally I relented and joined the tennis team in 11th grade due to incessant howling from male teachers and administrators that I didn't play a sport. One buddy held out all the way to the end despite relentless hammering from the school and ended up spending his free time learning how to build his own house instead. He sold that house for $275,000.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 05:46:54 PM by GCrites80s »

Offline jmecklenborg

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