Author Topic: Elon Musk  (Read 9155 times)

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Online mu2010

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2018, 10:11:53 AM »
^^ From a libertarian point of view I don't buy the "cars-as-freedom" argument. There's nothing inherently freer or more independent about driving a car on a publicly funded road vs. riding around on a publicly funded subway... any feeling of greater freedom brought by cars is an illusion. You can only drive where the road takes you. The only thing that makes our current road system feel freer than current public transit is that more government money goes into the roads so they are more flexible at the moment.

Turn the whole thing on its head, imagine we are in a libertarian society and all transportation is private. There's nothing freer about paying a toll and driving on a toll road than paying a fare and riding around on a private railroad.

Cars do liberate you from is a train schedule, that part is true. But I don't think that represents negative liberty that's central to libertarianism. You don't have any kind of right to not be bound to the schedule of a train. Saying you have a right to not be bound to a train schedule is akin to saying you should have a right to health care. Not very libertarian.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 10:16:30 AM by mu2010 »

Offline surfohio

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2018, 10:34:30 AM »
I think the use of the term "libertarian" in the article is a red herring. The government is going to have the technology to track citizens whether they're in a private car, train, smart car or zeppelin. There's no reason imho to take an alarmist position on these kinds of futurist issues. It's more interesting to consider how consumers will respond to these advances in technology. I personally don't believe that smart cars are going to prevent anyone from taking any route they choose to take because the buying public will rebel. If you have to pay extra to take the longer, zig-zag, or scenic route then so be it.

Offline 327

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2018, 12:21:51 PM »
There will always be a need for private vehicles.  There will also be a need for mass transit.  Neither is going to eliminate the other any time soon.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2018, 12:29:13 PM »
Fear pieces like that attend the arrival of every transformational technology before it actually arrives.  The advent of digital music was going to expose your entire collection to being wiped by a server error or hard drive crash, or hackers.  CDs were here to stay because you owned them.

Consider the scenario in that piece: the government monitors when you go to the liquor store.  Oh, the horror!  Well, they might use that information to pass off to secret agents to embarrass you with your temperance-movement employer out of pure autocratic spite.  Less sarcastically, perhaps your soon-to-be-ex in ongoing divorce proceedings will be able to more easily show that you went to the liquor store and spent $400 when you claim to have no extra money--of course, she could do that now, so the real possible libertarian complaint here is that it will make it harder to evade legitimate discovery requests.

More mundanely, the most probable use of that monitoring would not be about you at all--it would be about the liquor store.  If it turns out that everyone from Highland Square drives to West Hill for the liquor store, and that West Hill residents don't even use it all that much, then maybe the place would be better off if it moved to Highland Square.

As to the notion that there will be all these autocratic controls, the market has a way of sorting this out as long as the government just stays out of the way.  The government might not need to ban human driving if the relative safety of autonomous vehicles makes them cheaper to insure and they ultimately come down in price once they reach the point that no equipment for a human driver is needed at all (e.g., they're 100% passenger cabin and luggage compartment, like the inside of a small passenger train car, no driver's seat).

Offline taestell

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2018, 02:31:26 PM »
Interesting that you bring up digital music. What's interesting about that transition is that the era of the MP3 only existed for a very short time, maybe 10 years at the very most. Almost as soon as digital music became available, people realized that it didn't really make sense to buy and manage your own digital music, it makes more sense to subscribe to a service like Spotify that allows you to listen to any music you want, any time you want to. I think the same thing will happen with self-driving cars.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2018, 03:23:48 PM »
Almost certainly.  The "freedom" Cooke describes in that NR article from having the car you own sitting there waiting for you whenever you need it is also an economic inefficiency.  The market will be able to deliver on-demand access to vehicles even in a non-ownership structure, simply by having an adequately sized shared vehicle fleet.  Paid prioritization will almost certainly also be an option when you need to be absolutely sure you have on-demand access the instant you want it, which will still likely be cheaper than maintaining a vehicle (or a second vehicle).

If driving your own car is such a wonderful source of freedom, then why do so many of the world's richest people have their own personal drivers?  Autopilot is essentially a robotic chauffeur.  The time you reclaim by having someone (or something) else drive is worth far more than the illusory experience of "freedom" of being behind the wheel.

Also, my father is pushing 70 and has limited mobility.  He certainly can't drive at night anymore.  Even when he drives from Licking County to see me and his grandchildren here in Akron, he arrives tired and grumpy from the road.  He lives 2 hours away in a rural area, well beyond the radius of any public transport.  I can't afford to send a personal driver to pick him up.  But a car with autopilot might just allow him to get here having taken a nap on the way.  Tell me how that compromises his freedom--or mine.

Also, my son is 2 years old.  He won't be able to get a driver's license for another 14 years.  But I could easily see myself in five years putting my seven-year-old second-grader in an autopiloted car and saying "Alexa, drop my son off at school."  (At least until he learns to hack the damn thing to take him to Swenson's instead.)

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2018, 05:40:19 PM »
Interesting that you bring up digital music. What's interesting about that transition is that the era of the MP3 only existed for a very short time, maybe 10 years at the very most. Almost as soon as digital music became available, people realized that it didn't really make sense to buy and manage your own digital music, it makes more sense to subscribe to a service like Spotify that allows you to listen to any music you want, any time you want to. I think the same thing will happen with self-driving cars.

I'm not so sure that's the case.  iTunes still seems to do well.

Offline taestell

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2018, 08:46:21 PM »
I'm sure iTunes still brings in a lot of revenue, but Apple has been trying to turn it into a streaming service for years. Then two years ago they introduced Apple Music, going all in on streaming, essentially leaving iTunes behind for the small percentage of people that still care about owning their music and managing their own music library.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2018, 09:30:58 PM »
I think people are underestimating how frightening it will be to ride in a vehicle with no steering wheel or pedals. 

Offline X

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2018, 10:29:13 PM »
It will be less terrifying than riding with most of my friends, to be sure.  I agree with the central concern of the article, though.  It won't take long after autonomous vehicles are better than human drivers for a fight over whether or not humans should be allowed to drive at all to begin.  And there are privacy and freedom concerns that will go along with that.

At any rate, I saw the article as being at least partly satirical, not straight up serious.

Offline taestell

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2018, 10:29:36 PM »
During the CES convention next week in Vegas, Lyft will be unveiling "driverless" service, although there will still be a "host" sitting in the driver's seat in case anything goes wrong. Vegas also launched a driverless shuttle on Fremont Street earlier this year, using those off People Mover looking vehicles which do not have a steering wheel, but it does have a person who will hit a big red button to stop it if something goes wrong (it was already involved in one fender bender).

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2018, 10:40:35 PM »
It won't take long after autonomous vehicles are better than human drivers for a fight over whether or not humans should be allowed to drive at all to begin

We're more than 10 years into this.  We've still got drivers in every "driverless" car. 

When is that coast-to-coast driverless demonstration Musk promised going to happen?  2017's over. 

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2018, 07:38:44 AM »
It will be less terrifying than riding with most of my friends, to be sure.  I agree with the central concern of the article, though.  It won't take long after autonomous vehicles are better than human drivers for a fight over whether or not humans should be allowed to drive at all to begin.  And there are privacy and freedom concerns that will go along with that.

At any rate, I saw the article as being at least partly satirical, not straight up serious.

To some degree it was "illustrating absurdity by being absurd".  But I do admit to some "don't give them ideas" thoughts while reading.  Poe's Law may apply.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 01:07:31 PM by E Rocc »

Offline David

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2018, 12:39:57 PM »
It will be less terrifying than riding with most of my friends, to be sure.  I agree with the central concern of the article, though.  It won't take long after autonomous vehicles are better than human drivers for a fight over whether or not humans should be allowed to drive at all to begin.  And there are privacy and freedom concerns that will go along with that.

At any rate, I saw the article as being at least partly satirical, not straight up serious.

I'd trust my friends over remote hackers.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2018, 01:58:41 PM »
I wonder if they will kick cars more than 5 years old or whatever off the road for having too old of firmware that can't be updated.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2018, 04:22:17 PM »
I wonder if they will kick cars more than 5 years old or whatever off the road for having too old of firmware that can't be updated.

They should do that with drivers above a certain age, too.

Offline David

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2018, 12:08:16 PM »
Did anyone buy Elon Musk's Flame Thrower? He did $5M in sales so far for pre-orders and it just went on sale. People can expect to get it this spring. The people who bought it are probably the same people who bought his air freshener called, "Elon's Musk."

California is trying to get The Boring Co.'s Flame Thrower banned. They're legal to have in every state as long as the flame is less than 10 feet.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 12:40:53 PM by David »

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2018, 12:16:45 PM »
You can make your own pretty easily.  One of my brother's friends built his own and brought it to his wedding. 

Offline David

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2018, 12:17:07 PM »
It reminds me of a Nintendo Zapper






You can make your own pretty easily.  One of my brother's friends built his own and brought it to his wedding. 

LOL.

I just want one that I can pull out and shoot when I'm walking down the street and some smoker asks me if I have a lighter they can borrow.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 12:31:43 PM by David »

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2018, 11:50:17 PM »
Slightly -- but only slightly -- off topic. 

In typical Musk fashion, Musk was out there exaggerating the size of the Falcon rocket.  It's NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE BIGGEST ROCKET EVER.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V

SO SICK OF THIS GUY!!!

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2018, 07:47:11 AM »
Slightly -- but only slightly -- off topic. 

In typical Musk fashion, Musk was out there exaggerating the size of the Falcon rocket.  It's NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE BIGGEST ROCKET EVER.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V

SO SICK OF THIS GUY!!!

This is not a movie, and that makes up for a lot:

https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/06/spacex-landed-two-of-its-three-falcon-heavy-first-stage-boosters/

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2018, 10:30:22 AM »

Offline MikeInCanton

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2018, 09:39:54 PM »
It seems part of Musk's goal is to make suburban life carbon neutral, thereby eradicating the primary contemporary argument against it: the eco argument that cities are superior because they are more resource efficient.

For me, the argument of city vs. suburb is one of temperament. Some people are just uncomfortable around large numbers of people, no matter who they are, and so prefer to have their space.  I think these people deserve to have their desired built environment as much as people who prefer to be able to walk to work or who hate driving.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 08:25:38 PM by MikeInCanton »

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2018, 09:58:35 PM »
I own stores and work in them a lot. They're in malls and they get a ton of looky-loos and window shoppers. It's a Poisson occupation for sure, and I'm essentially in public all the time. Then I have to go to other stores to get errands done and eat in public often. I do tire of constantly arriving at doors, counters and displays at the exact same time as other people. In the past, I've spent a lot of time and lived in busy parts of town and that didn't get to me. But I actually think that the sporadic amount of people that you see in more suburban areas annoys you when you say, go through a door, and there's always someone else there! There are no other people around outside! In a city, your mind says "This is a city. There are going to be other people around. Lots of them." I think after a while it's just too much Poisson for some people. I don't think I'd feel this way if I say, worked in an office with the same people all the time instead of having a Poisson occupation. When I did have office work (which I would LOVE to go back to) I always worked in busy areas such as universities and downtowns.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2018, 10:51:46 PM »
^ funny I was envisioning your routine and suddenly realized I havenít been inside a mall in several years.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2018, 11:06:10 PM »
Mall product lines really have changed. Used to be they had everything; now it's mostly apparel, jewelry, accessories, housewares and video games/nerd stuff.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2018, 08:20:23 PM »
Mall product lines really have changed. Used to be they had everything; now it's mostly apparel, jewelry, accessories, housewares and video games/nerd stuff.

I made a somewhat controversial comment here a few years back about Beachwood Place having little to nothing of interest to me anymore.   Great Lakes is a little better but I think I have been there four times in six years I have worked in the vicinity, one of those being taking Holly to shop while I distracted Ardyn.

Offline MikeInCanton

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2018, 08:29:33 PM »
I own stores and work in them a lot. They're in malls and they get a ton of looky-loos and window shoppers. It's a Poisson occupation for sure, and I'm essentially in public all the time. Then I have to go to other stores to get errands done and eat in public often. I do tire of constantly arriving at doors, counters and displays at the exact same time as other people. In the past, I've spent a lot of time and lived in busy parts of town and that didn't get to me. But I actually think that the sporadic amount of people that you see in more suburban areas annoys you when you say, go through a door, and there's always someone else there! There are no other people around outside! In a city, your mind says "This is a city. There are going to be other people around. Lots of them." I think after a while it's just too much Poisson for some people. I don't think I'd feel this way if I say, worked in an office with the same people all the time instead of having a Poisson occupation. When I did have office work (which I would LOVE to go back to) I always worked in busy areas such as universities and downtowns.

This is a fishy response ;D

There is probably something to that but I would also say the people who are temperamentally anti- or pro-large groups of people are going to have similar feelings whether they are in the city or at the mall. In either case, in their mind they know there are going to be a lot of people around.  There is also the annoyance of driving in an area shared by a lot of people to consider. That alone puts people in a bad mood even if they do not necessarily mind being around people.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 08:35:06 PM by MikeInCanton »

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2018, 10:13:38 PM »
Mall product lines really have changed. Used to be they had everything; now it's mostly apparel, jewelry, accessories, housewares and video games/nerd stuff.

I made a somewhat controversial comment here a few years back about Beachwood Place having little to nothing of interest to me anymore.   Great Lakes is a little better but I think I have been there four times in six years I have worked in the vicinity, one of those being taking Holly to shop while I distracted Ardyn.

haven't you heard? Great Lakes Mall is now an "Entertainment District." It's going to be a one-stop destination for pure, unadulterated fun!

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/12/great_lakes_mall_now_a_communu.html

Offline carnevalem

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Re: Elon Musk
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2018, 03:48:33 PM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972233079342297088

Quote
@elonmusk

Adjusting The Boring Company plan: all tunnels & Hyperloop will prioritize pedestrians & cyclists over cars

Will still transport cars, but only after all personalized mass transit needs are met. Itís a matter of courtesy & fairness. If someone canít afford a car, they should go first.

Boring Co urban loop system would have 1000ís of small stations the size of a single parking space that take you very close to your destination & blend seamlessly into the fabric of a city, rather than a small number of big stations like a subway

Better video coming soon, but it would look a bit like this:

Video available at:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972245615735222273