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Author Topic: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)  (Read 16052 times)

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Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #210 on: December 04, 2017, 03:42:30 PM »
I like how all these "right to lifers" come jumping to Moore's defense about "sanctity of life."  The irony of supporting Moore because he believes no fetus should be aborted, yet that man preyed on underage girls and likely ruined some of their lives...they just don't get it.

What about Muslim lives?  Or gay lives?  He doesn't believe Muslims should serve in the U.S. Senate and that gay people should be locked up simply for being gay.

This "right to life" is BS because they're overlooking how inexplicably bad Moore is for people who are living in this country.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #211 on: December 04, 2017, 03:59:45 PM »
You have to understand that for those on the pro-life side of the issue, very frequently, they see this right up there with issues of nuclear war.  They see that 60 million fetuses--children--have been aborted since Roe v. Wade was decided (and while some of them might not have been viable, the vast majority were not aborted due to inviability) and yes, that trumps nearly all other potential internal or external threats.  That's why I said above that I think that it explains a significant portion of the solidarity with Moore, and the strength of the cognitive dissonance that makes people discount the allegations against him to rally behind him.  No other issue, not guns, not immigration, certainly not taxes or regulations, operates on quite that visceral a level to the Republican base (particularly to the religious right, which is the lion's share of the base in Alabama).

Moore should not be winning this.  He absolutely does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful lawmakers on the planet.  (Though I'll say that I'd rather see him in the legislature than the judiciary, considering his record there.)  But in the eyes of many Alabamans who will vote for him, it really is, in their minds, a choice between (1) a man who may decades ago have been a child molester and (2) a man who will be complicit, going forward, in mass child murder.  I can already hear the keyboards clacking venting about how hyperbolic that is.  But this is one of those things where if you're not pro-life yourself, it is extremely difficult to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #212 on: December 04, 2017, 04:16:34 PM »
^If every voter in America did not engage in cognitive dissonance to at least some degree when choosing a candidate, no one would ever vote! Quoting Sarah Huckabee Sanders from a New York Times story: “Oftentimes, people want to make politicians perfect,” she added. “I certainly didn’t approve of a couple of the comments,” Ms. Sanders said of her time on Mr. Trump’s campaign, where she served as an adviser and on-air surrogate. “But at the same time, we were looking for a commander in chief, not a pastor.”“And that’s one of the actual beauties of Christianity, is understanding that no one is.” -- Well said.



Offline Cleburger

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #213 on: December 04, 2017, 05:17:56 PM »
I love the new Roy Moore defense I'm seeing by Trumpkins on Twitter:

"Well Roy Moore was a Democrat back when he did those things so he's fine now...."

WTF? 

Offline YABO713

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #214 on: December 04, 2017, 05:19:39 PM »
BUT WHATABOUT EMARGHERED BENGHAZURANIUM

Offline 327

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #215 on: December 04, 2017, 07:13:04 PM »
You have to understand that for those on the pro-life side of the issue, very frequently, they see this right up there with issues of nuclear war.  They see that 60 million fetuses--children--have been aborted since Roe v. Wade was decided (and while some of them might not have been viable, the vast majority were not aborted due to inviability) and yes, that trumps nearly all other potential internal or external threats.  That's why I said above that I think that it explains a significant portion of the solidarity with Moore, and the strength of the cognitive dissonance that makes people discount the allegations against him to rally behind him.  No other issue, not guns, not immigration, certainly not taxes or regulations, operates on quite that visceral a level to the Republican base (particularly to the religious right, which is the lion's share of the base in Alabama).

Moore should not be winning this.  He absolutely does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful lawmakers on the planet.  (Though I'll say that I'd rather see him in the legislature than the judiciary, considering his record there.)  But in the eyes of many Alabamans who will vote for him, it really is, in their minds, a choice between (1) a man who may decades ago have been a child molester and (2) a man who will be complicit, going forward, in mass child murder.  I can already hear the keyboards clacking venting about how hyperbolic that is.  But this is one of those things where if you're not pro-life yourself, it is extremely difficult to put yourself in the shoes of someone who is.

I have friends who are otherwise liberal but abortion decides their votes every time.  It's such a powerful wedge issue that it may have handed us the current Republican majorities.  And a lot of the immigrant voters Democrats are counting on also happen to be anti-abortion.  So don't count those chickens quite yet.

Offline edale

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #216 on: December 04, 2017, 07:43:42 PM »
It'd be a lot easier to reconcile the opinions of pro-lifers if they were consistently compassionate towards the needs of children and families. Most of them, however, only care about getting the baby born, and couldn't give two shits what happens to it after that. Somehow, child rape is OK to these people who supposedly stand for the rights of children. It's a crock of shit.

The conservative christian movement is full of hypocrisy like that. They simply pick the sins they care about, and forget the rest. Gay marriage = the end of traditional values as we know it, but divorce and sexual assault is A ok! They claim to resist a large, domineering government, but then are allll for big government when it comes to the war on drugs, women's health, LGBT rights. I genuinely don't get it. How can these people be so insecure in their values and morals? Don't like weed? Don't smoke it! Don't like abortion? Don't have one! Don't like gay marriage? Pray your kids don't turn out to be gay, I guess, and leave everyone else the hell alone. Why are these people so intent on shoving their beliefs onto other people? Believe what you want to believe and let me believe what I want to. If you think I'm going to hell for being OK with gay marriage or reproductive choice, cool- let me burn. Why's it matter to them?

I'm so sick of politics in this country.

Offline surfohio

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #217 on: December 05, 2017, 12:22:34 AM »
It'd be a lot easier to reconcile the opinions of pro-lifers if they were consistently compassionate towards the needs of children and families. Most of them, however, only care about getting the baby born, and couldn't give two shits what happens to it after that.

Pro-lifers, as you probably define them are at best, less than half the country. It wasn't pro-lifers that put the Idiot-in-chief into office, it was former Obama voters. You're painting with a very broad brush and missing out on what's going on politically.   

Offline edale

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #218 on: December 05, 2017, 01:52:45 AM »
^ No, I’m talking about dumbass “Christians” in Alabama who are most likely going to vote a pesophile into the Senate. Wth are you talking about?

Offline 327

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #219 on: December 05, 2017, 08:26:16 AM »
^ No, I’m talking about dumbass “Christians” in Alabama who are most likely going to vote a pesophile into the Senate. Wth are you talking about?

They probably view Moore's exploits along a broader spectrum than abortion, which is more either/or.  I agree with you that it's crazy to oppose abortion and then not support children once they're born.  And I agree with Surfohio that it wasn't Alabama who gave us Trump.  But they might give us Roy Moore.  Funny, their savior did not appreciate businesses exploiting the faith for a quick buck, but that's what Republicans seem to be doing these days.

Offline YABO713

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Offline surfohio

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #221 on: December 05, 2017, 09:03:18 AM »
^ No, I’m talking about dumbass “Christians” in Alabama who are most likely going to vote a pesophile into the Senate. Wth are you talking about?

You should re-read your post. You made a huge blanket statement.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #222 on: December 05, 2017, 10:25:48 AM »
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-rnc-resumes-funding-roy-moore

20 days.  That's all it took for the GOP to flip from caring about not electing an alleged child molester to donating to said alleged child molester.  20 days of faux values from the GOP.

Quote
The Republican National Committee is jumping back into the Alabama U.S. Senate election on behalf of Roy Moore, an RNC official confirmed to The Daily Beast. The news was first reported by Breitbart. The decision by the committee to put money and staff behind the Moore campaign comes hours after President Donald Trump formally endorsed the Senate candidate, who has been accused by multiple women of having sexually preyed on them when they were teenagers.

Offline freefourur

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #223 on: December 05, 2017, 10:28:46 AM »
^ They are no longer the party of family values.  They never actually were anyway.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #224 on: December 05, 2017, 11:28:48 AM »
It'd be a lot easier to reconcile the opinions of pro-lifers if they were consistently compassionate towards the needs of children and families. Most of them, however, only care about getting the baby born, and couldn't give two shits what happens to it after that. Somehow, child rape is OK to these people who supposedly stand for the rights of children. It's a crock of shit.

The conservative christian movement is full of hypocrisy like that. They simply pick the sins they care about, and forget the rest. Gay marriage = the end of traditional values as we know it, but divorce and sexual assault is A ok! They claim to resist a large, domineering government, but then are allll for big government when it comes to the war on drugs, women's health, LGBT rights. I genuinely don't get it. How can these people be so insecure in their values and morals? Don't like weed? Don't smoke it! Don't like abortion? Don't have one! Don't like gay marriage? Pray your kids don't turn out to be gay, I guess, and leave everyone else the hell alone. Why are these people so intent on shoving their beliefs onto other people? Believe what you want to believe and let me believe what I want to. If you think I'm going to hell for being OK with gay marriage or reproductive choice, cool- let me burn. Why's it matter to them?

I'm so sick of politics in this country.

There are two possible answers to this.

First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being, just as it is perfectly consistent to say that the government is obligated to protect the free exercise of your religion but is not obligated to build you a church, or to protect the freedom of the press without setting everyone in the country up with their own blog and podcast.

Second, remember that political parties in our first-past-the-post system are inherently coalitions.  The Christian right is actually not the epicenter of the Republican Party's fiscal agenda.  In fact, many of them may be part of the reason why the Republicans actually have a much easier time passing tax cuts than spending cuts, why the party never backs up its rhetoric on spending restraint.  While some of the Christian right may well be affirmatively in favor of such cuts, many Christians, including conservative ones, either actively oppose such cuts or just don't care much.  Note that Trump as a candidate (forget Trump as a president trying to get a legislative win of any kind of Congress) was not even remotely doctrinaire on taxes or spending.  He expressly ruled out entitlement cuts.  He even spoke with a mixed message on progressive taxation (and the positive things he said about it sounded Democratic, a fact that his opponents tried to use against him, and a line of attack that tellingly got nowhere).

Christian conservatives voted for Trump for the same reason they might vote for Moore.  It's the Supreme Court.  And it's the Supreme Court because of abortion, first and foremost.  More than perhaps any other major political faction in America besides their opponents in NARAL and allied organizations, the Christian right is extremely sensitive to the age of the current justices and the balance of the Supreme Court.  It is possible that a president Trump in 8 years could appoint four Supreme Court justices, counting the one he already appointed, three of which are votes in favor of Roe (and Obergefell, but note that despite being much more recent, that decision still doesn't raise the kind of ire that Roe does even 44 years later) that could be flipped.

Offline freefourur

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #225 on: December 05, 2017, 11:30:06 AM »
A 14 year old child getting raped is not her material well being.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #226 on: December 05, 2017, 11:32:38 AM »
A 14 year old child getting raped is not her material well being.

Agreed.  But it would be better (or perhaps one should say "less evil") than having her been aborted 14.5 years earlier.

Offline freefourur

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #227 on: December 05, 2017, 11:34:34 AM »
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

Online X

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #228 on: December 05, 2017, 11:44:17 AM »
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-rnc-resumes-funding-roy-moore

20 days.  That's all it took for the GOP to flip from caring about not electing an alleged child molester to donating to said alleged child molester.  20 days of faux values from the GOP.

Quote
The Republican National Committee is jumping back into the Alabama U.S. Senate election on behalf of Roy Moore, an RNC official confirmed to The Daily Beast. The news was first reported by Breitbart. The decision by the committee to put money and staff behind the Moore campaign comes hours after President Donald Trump formally endorsed the Senate candidate, who has been accused by multiple women of having sexually preyed on them when they were teenagers.

Well then they've just given us official justification to hang Moore's pedophilia on the entire national party.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #229 on: December 05, 2017, 11:47:16 AM »
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

I wasn't comparing the two individuals in that post.  I was comparing the evils of child molestation and legal abortion.  I have already done my comparing of the two men above.  Doug Jones would be an abortion rights absolutist.  Therefore, while Roy Moore does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet, in the eyes of a great many Alabamans, neither does Doug Jones.  Yet somehow the electoral process managed to put this choice to the voters of Alabama.

Online mu2010

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #230 on: December 05, 2017, 11:49:10 AM »
Is your point RE: Jones not deserving to be one of the 100 that he doesn't represent his constituents' views on abortion, or that no abortion rights absolutists should be a part of that 100?

Offline freefourur

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #231 on: December 05, 2017, 11:49:14 AM »
^^ There is no pro life position in the abortion movement.  Illegal abortions will not stop abortions.  It's not a hard concept/.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 11:52:42 AM by freefourur »

Offline 327

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #232 on: December 05, 2017, 11:51:16 AM »
First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being

We're talking about children though.  How in the Dickens are they supposed to pull their own weight?

Offline Gramarye

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #233 on: December 05, 2017, 11:54:02 AM »
Is your point RE: Jones not deserving to be one of the 100 that he doesn't represent his constituents' views on abortion, or that no abortion rights absolutists should be a part of that 100?

I would prefer that all 100 Senators completely agree with my political preferences on every issue. :-)

Online mu2010

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #234 on: December 05, 2017, 11:58:11 AM »
in the eyes of a great many Alabamans

Haha... you answered my question here, missed that, sorry

Offline Gramarye

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #235 on: December 05, 2017, 11:59:09 AM »
First, it is perfectly consistent to say that the government has the obligation to keep you from being killed but not the obligation to provide for your material well-being

We're talking about children though.  How in the Dickens are they supposed to pull their own weight?

They aren't.  And as I said, many conservative Christians are OK with various welfare programs for family support.  Those that aren't, though, take the view that that responsibility falls on the family.

As a general rule, the social conservative vision of America depends on strong families reinforced by strong institutions committed both legally and morally to keeping families strong and intact.  Most social conservative thought leaders are highly aware of the threat to the viability of their vision posed by widespread family breakdown.  This is getting a bit far afield from the discussion of Moore specifically, though.

Offline YABO713

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #236 on: December 05, 2017, 11:59:35 AM »
^^ There is no pro life position in the abortion movement.  Illegal abortions will not stop abortions.  It's not a hard concept/.

As a pragmatic conservative, I often find it laughable that one would suggest reducing abortions will be affected without an increase in contraceptives.

Online X

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #237 on: December 05, 2017, 11:59:50 AM »
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

I wasn't comparing the two individuals in that post.  I was comparing the evils of child molestation and legal abortion.  I have already done my comparing of the two men above.  Doug Jones would be an abortion rights absolutist.  Therefore, while Roy Moore does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet, in the eyes of a great many Alabamans, neither does Doug Jones.  Yet somehow the electoral process managed to put this choice to the voters of Alabama.

The national and state Republican parties could have repudiated him and put their efforts behind a write-in candidate who's not a pedophile.  Instead, they've gone full on in support of a pedophile.  The President could have kept his mouth shut and not endorsed a pedophile (well a different President could have).  But instead he's endorsed a pedophile.  The pro-Moore posters on here could simply stop defending a pedophile.  Instead, they defend a pedophile.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #238 on: December 05, 2017, 12:01:14 PM »
^ But Doug Jones is not aborting anyone and Roy Moore raped children.  Your attempt to compare the two is way off.

I wasn't comparing the two individuals in that post.  I was comparing the evils of child molestation and legal abortion.  I have already done my comparing of the two men above.  Doug Jones would be an abortion rights absolutist.  Therefore, while Roy Moore does not deserve to be one of the 100 most powerful legislators on the planet, in the eyes of a great many Alabamans, neither does Doug Jones.  Yet somehow the electoral process managed to put this choice to the voters of Alabama.

The national and state Republican parties could have repudiated him and put their efforts behind a write-in candidate who's not a pedophile.  Instead, they've gone full on in support of a pedophile.  The President could have kept his mouth shut and not endorsed a pedophile (well a different President could have).  But instead he's endorsed a pedophile.  The pro-Moore posters on here could simply stop defending a pedophile.  Instead, they defend a pedophile.

All too true, and I'm deeply disappointed to see the national party step back in, especially considering that Moore might well have won without them.

Offline freefourur

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Re: U.S. Senate Candidate Roy Moore (R)
« Reply #239 on: December 05, 2017, 12:02:30 PM »
^^ There is no pro life position in the abortion movement.  Illegal abortions will not stop abortions.  It's not a hard concept/.

As a pragmatic conservative, I often find it laughable that one would suggest reducing abortions will be affected without an increase in contraceptives.

The conservative view seems to be make abortion illegal.  Don't teach sex ed in school.  Although, the democratic philosophy is the one that has reduced abortions.  Kinda weird for absolutists huh?