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Author Topic: Cincinnati: Crime & Safety Discussion  (Read 8355 times)

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Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2070 on: December 15, 2012, 02:28:04 PM »
It's telling that only 49% of people who aren't afraid to go to OTR feel OTR is safe in the late night hours.

It shouldn't have to be pointed out, but OTR is not Cincinnati. And improvement in the perception of safety is not the same as scoring well in perception of safety.

I've lived in safe cities. I've lived in unsafe cities. I'm not afraid of Cincinnati, but it is middling at best in the safety category. We should all be honest about that. Celebrate improvements, but don't pretend the work is anywhere near being finished. We should also be honest that moving the problem around is not the same as solving it.

Edit: Hey, that's pretty awesome Cincy avoided being in the FBI's top 25 most dangerous cities this year. Cleveland got out of the top 10, which is also nice to see.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 02:30:55 PM by natininja »

Offline City Blights

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2071 on: December 15, 2012, 03:23:19 PM »
Growing up in Cincinnati in a low income household, being in all kinds of neighborhoods and seeing all kinds of things, you know the city more intimately than someone from out-of town.  If you're a Cincinnati kid from a low-income household, your understanding of the city is going to be different than that of someone who is choosing to put themselves in a position of weakness because they have the finance to survive it, i.e. moving  to a bad neighborhood without income being the deciding factor.

No- you know your part of the City more intimately.  There's no one lifestyle or experience that gives you the best, most authentic knowledge on ALL lifestyles and experiences.  Growing up poor is difficult and tragic, but growing up poor in Cincinnati is hardly any different than growing up poor in Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc.  In fact, it might be better than in some of those communities and surely, it might be worse than in a couple others.  There's being poor in Bond Hill, but then there's being poor in Covington and being poor in South Fairmount or Fay Apartments.  All of THOSE are different even within the same area.  Everything is different everywhere always, and yet in many places it's also pretty similar (genius, i know).  You had crappy experiences in Cincinnati and so your view of Cincinnati is that it leans towards those crappy experiences.  That is how the human mind works, feelings are tied to a location and the experiences that happened in that location.

Cincinnati is not even in the top 25 cities in america for crime.  Crime is dropping dramatically, with a 16% drop in violent crime in the last two years and a 10% drop in property crime in the last two years.  To say we're anything like a third world country is over the top.  Are there pockets of people who live a criminal lifestyle? absolutely. But you also complain we have too many police or something to that effect. 

I do agree that the spike in crime between 2003 and 2007 did impact some peoples perceptions of the streetcar.  But many of people are against it for its dollar amount, because it's rail, because it's downtown and downtown gets all the attention, because its not in my backyard (reverse NIMBYism), etc.

I actually think Cincinnati, because of its older, established, almost "official" feel as a major city due to history, layout and era, feels more unsafe than a lot of cities you named.  Long-time neglect and isolated neighborhoods in addition to hubs that still have relatively high crime like Clifton make the city feel like a work in progress.  I'm proud to say that my city is progressing past more or less two decades of stagnation in city boroughs going back to the late 80s.

Guys, I'm not afraid of Cincinnati, quite the contrary!  I completely agree with your point about everyone's perception being different and not devaluing another man's viewpoint is important.  I'm not trying to. 

I certainly don't try to beat my chest about living out of the country or being from Cincinnati, I just get asked about these things sometimes and I have to remind other UOers, hey, I'm not new to this Cincinnati thing, I'm a native.  My pulse comes from family, the news I read, former colleagues and how Cincinnati felt to me the last couple times I was there. 

The city feels much safer than it did four or five years ago downtown and uptown, but not as safe in parts of the Westside.  I think that once the downtown loop and Uptown Connector is up and running, the central core of NKY, downtown and OTR, Mt. Adams and Clifton could feel like a city of its own with growth probably exploding in Walnut Hills along the McMillan corridor by then.  I long for the day Cincinnati inserts itself back into competition with some of my favorite Eastern cities like Boston and Chicago.  10 years from now I see the city in a perpetual state of construction, from transit to housing.  I'm bullish on Cincinnati, skeptical of its leadership but not its desired direction.

When I say areas don't feel safe, I'm moreso analyzing it from the perspective of someone who isn't familiar with the rough-and-tumble streets of an Eastern metropolis mired in decline.  I have standards for Cincinnati that are probably higher than most people's.  I don't view it as a Third World entity.  In my mind, Cincinnati is a criminal underachiever. 

Part of that has to do with core neighborhoods stuck in negative cycles.  Walnut Hills finally has registered on the map as a potential growth point after being an area in desperate need of reform for I don't know how long.  These are things that make me feel good about the City as an increasingly competitive municipality for the educated.  I want to see Cincinnati be better for those fortunate enough to be born in it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:27:16 PM by City Blights »

Offline Neville

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2072 on: December 15, 2012, 03:41:23 PM »
Clifton has exceptionally low crime... if you were referring to Clifton Heights or CUF, you've certainly done yourself a disservice in this argument. While you may be "born and raised" Cincinnati, I think that also gives you the unique perspective of having been taught throughout much of your youth that Cincinnati is a can't-do place, is failing, and is better left for dead.

Out of curiosity, in what part of Cincinnati were you born and raised?

Offline City Blights

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2073 on: December 15, 2012, 03:50:48 PM »
Clifton has exceptionally low crime... if you were referring to Clifton Heights or CUF, you've certainly done yourself a disservice in this argument. While you may be "born and raised" Cincinnati, I think that also gives you the unique perspective of having been taught throughout much of your youth that Cincinnati is a can't-do place, is failing, and is better left for dead.

Out of curiosity, in what part of Cincinnati were you born and raised?

Again, what a native might consider or call Clifton in casual conversation may not actually fit with the political distinction currently in place...excellent job missing the point completely.

Where did you see me display a defeated attitude about Cincinnati, or anything for that matter?

Raised in Avondale and Bond Hill.  I'm an Uptown kid.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:52:36 PM by City Blights »

Offline CincyGuy45202

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2074 on: December 15, 2012, 03:57:56 PM »
I will absolutely agree that the westside is in major decline due to a number of factors (crappy housing stock, bizarre arterials, crappy business districts, disconnection from wealth on the east side, etc.).  Westwood will be declining for several years to come.  Mt Airy is also ina state of decline.  East price hill seems to be leveling off after years of decline and might actually see some minimal progress in the next few years, but overall the western neighborhoods are in a lot of trouble. 

CUF and Corryville are seeing crime drop quite dramatically.  Walnut Hills had dropped for several years but recently had a small bump up, avondale has seen crime drop dramatically, and evanston is seeing crime decrease. It seems that the plan of the Port and the City is to invest heavily in these areas as they are in better positions for growth and have factors that help them that much of the westside doesn't have.  You're also seeing huge increases of crime in Colerain township, likely crime leaving the City. Generally, across the whole county, everything west of 75, with the exception of Northside and college hill, is going to be getting worse before it gets better. 

Offline old edale

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2075 on: December 17, 2012, 12:53:11 PM »
I actually agree with City Blights about how crime in Clifton/Uptown makes the city feel like a work in progress.  It undeniably the second most important hub in the region behind downtown, and it still has a simply intolerable amount of crime.  Just sign up for the UC crime emails and you'll see how out of control this area really is.  Crime regularly occurs both on campus and in daylight hours routinely! The key to safety in Cincinnati (in my opinion) is simply to repopulate our neighborhoods.  Get the density threshhold high enough to support an active and visible street presence, and crime will move elsewhere. 

Offline seicer

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2076 on: December 17, 2012, 01:13:11 PM »
Where did you see me display a defeated attitude about Cincinnati, or anything for that matter?

Raised in Avondale and Bond Hill.  I'm an Uptown kid.

"Cincinnati has too much crime and generally doesn't feel that safe.  The locals know this.  People around the country know this.  Ranking high enough to get noticed on crime stat sheets and having multiple reality shows about crime and homicide does indeed build upon the reputation Cincinnati stitched itself to with the riots, boycott, and subsequent wave of violence across the city and in particular, downtown."

"The city has a little OK corral in it and this entire story is just a small illustration of that.  I wouldn't call Cincinnati safe by any stretch despite crime going down.  Cincinnatians are conditioned to their underdeveloped and poverty-stricken metropolis, but trust me, others view the city as the homicide/cop show capital that it is."

While you may have grown up in Avondale and Bond Hill decades ago, you are far too sticking to its (Cincinnati) once more violent past. You fail to see the good work being put forth by dozens and dozens of developers, homeowners, council members, business men and women, the movers-and-the-shakers, college students - and have focused almost entirely on the negativity from the 'riots' that were over a decade ago. Yes, the 2000s were certainly more violent, but do you still hold yourself to the 1960s and 1970s Avondale, when riots tore through the neighborhood and when that neighborhood declined severely? Did you give up and move further out, or stick around and fight the battles - even if it was on a street-by-street basis?

With your analogy, we should have given up on many metros long ago. Cleveland. New York City. Detroit. And so forth.

"I was in Cincinnati last summer and probably have a better beat on what's going on in the streets there than you do."

You live in Europe. A lot has changed since you moved away - and you've probably do not have "a good sense" of Cincinnati from a summer vacation. There are a lot of folks doing good things; "tattle-telling" and reporting on crimes is one of them.

--

Going back on topic, it looks like we may be getting our neighbors out. They haven't paid their water bill in nearly 6 months and the landlord is not wanting the building to deteriorate. In addition, we may have a developer come up and take a look at the house to see how much it would cost to rehabilitate and put back on the market.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 01:14:38 PM by Sherman Cahal »

Online unusualfire

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2077 on: January 01, 2013, 12:23:21 AM »
Cincinnati ended the year with 53 homicides. -20% from 2011.

Offline jdm00

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2078 on: January 02, 2013, 08:33:08 AM »
Would love to get that number down into the 40s next year.  I will take a 20% drop in the rate, though. 

Some other murder numbers for comparable places (at least in terms of metro area size): 

Columbus - 90 -- down from 93 in 2011
Cleveland:  Either 97 or 100 (depending on what number you choose), according to this article  http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_homicide_rates_up_ne.html
Pittsburgh:  Very interesting.  42 in the city, 54 in the rest of the county.  http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/01/01/2012-homicides-drop-in-pittsburgh-rise-in-suburbs/


Online unusualfire

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2079 on: January 02, 2013, 08:47:35 AM »
Anyone know if a homicide is counted in one area but not counted where it originated from? Eg. Someone is shot in Ky, but NKY does not have a trauma center. So those victims are transported to Ohio and may die there.

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2080 on: January 02, 2013, 09:40:55 AM »
I think the stat counts where the body is located. Might count when the body is located, too. Like if a body is found today that was killed a couple days ago, I don't think that 53 retroactively rises to 54.

I might be wrong on both counts, though.

Online unusualfire

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2081 on: January 11, 2013, 03:23:11 PM »
Just had the first murder of 2013. Tulsa, ok already has 8.

And also it's funny how local news bury some of the crime. Like a robbery in MT Lookout on Christmas eve. The story only come out today about it and it's buried in the news site as well.

http://eastside.fox19.com/news/crime/102570-videowoman-robbed-mount-lookout-atm

Online unusualfire

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2082 on: January 13, 2013, 06:32:30 PM »
Well there was a scary moment for me about 2 hours ago. I was in the middle of a shootout in bond hill. I was in the carryout lane when 2 guys came running and shooting right next to my car. I had to took off and left my food at this place when the shooter when to the other side of the store. Thank god he payed more attention to the guy he was shooting at then at me. I went back about 30 mins later when the police was there. They had one guy in handcuffs. I saw another slump down at the front door of this restaurant. Im not sure if he was shot or not. Wow even just getting a carryout something can jump off at any moment.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 06:33:48 PM by unusualfire »

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2083 on: January 14, 2013, 12:33:49 AM »
Heard somebody was dealing drugs in the rain today in Walnut Hills wearing a shower cap. 

Offline Quimbob

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2084 on: July 13, 2013, 06:13:53 AM »
The guy who got beat to a pulp by bored teenagers in North College Hill has expired.
No details - an autopsy will be performed to see if it is related to the attack.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130712/NEWS/307120191/North-College-Hill-bored-beating-victim-dies

Offline OCtoCincy

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2085 on: July 13, 2013, 10:34:14 AM »
So homicides are up 63% this year so far, but only up a little but compared to 2011. Should also be noted virtually every victim (except 2 that I was able to figure out and leaving out a few juveniles) had a moderate to lengthy rap sheet. Additionally, this year is turning out to be extremely tilted African American. Even more than usual. While there were about 4 of the roughy 40 homicides I couldn't determine race on, the rest have been all African American except 1 (Owner of Hartwell Pizza place).

Offline MissinOhio

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2086 on: July 13, 2013, 01:46:21 PM »
So homicides are up 63% this year so far, but only up a little but compared to 2011. Should also be noted virtually every victim (except 2 that I was able to figure out and leaving out a few juveniles) had a moderate to lengthy rap sheet. Additionally, this year is turning out to be extremely tilted African American. Even more than usual. While there were about 4 of the roughy 40 homicides I couldn't determine race on, the rest have been all African American except 1 (Owner of Hartwell Pizza place).

40 homicides in a city with 290,000?!  That's horrible numbers.

Online unusualfire

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2087 on: July 13, 2013, 02:33:59 PM »
So homicides are up 63% this year so far, but only up a little but compared to 2011. Should also be noted virtually every victim (except 2 that I was able to figure out and leaving out a few juveniles) had a moderate to lengthy rap sheet. Additionally, this year is turning out to be extremely tilted African American. Even more than usual. While there were about 4 of the roughy 40 homicides I couldn't determine race on, the rest have been all African American except 1 (Owner of Hartwell Pizza place).
40 homicides in a city with 290,000?!  That's horrible numbers.
The number of residence is meaningless when the metro is over 2.2 million.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:34:40 PM by unusualfire »

Offline MissinOhio

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2088 on: July 13, 2013, 03:56:48 PM »
Is it 40 homicides for Hamilton county, Warren, Butler, etc? Or are the 40 just in Cincinnati?  If it is just cincinnati, those numbers don't speak well for the city.  Several shootings in OTR and one in Washington Park recently... I could say the same for Detroit, a metro area of some 5 million, but the city itself is out of control when I comes to homicides.

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2089 on: July 13, 2013, 04:24:35 PM »
Is it 40 homicides for Hamilton county, Warren, Butler, etc? Or are the 40 just in Cincinnati?  If it is just cincinnati, those numbers don't speak well for the city.  Several shootings in OTR and one in Washington Park recently... I could say the same for Detroit, a metro area of some 5 million, but the city itself is out of control when I comes to homicides.

That's the number for the city proper. If you include the entire MSA, it's probably under 45.

For comparison, the YTD for 2011 was 38 (city proper).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 04:25:11 PM by natininja »

Offline OCtoCincy

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2090 on: July 13, 2013, 11:40:24 PM »
You're underestimating the homicides in Fairfield (had 6 past year alone) Colerain, etc. if bet its closer to 10-12 more outside of city year-to-date and 50 for the whole metro.

Also, since the vast majority of homicides in the city are just a couple neighborhoods and are virtually entirely among people with records and with victims who know their killer, it's hardly a statistic to determine how safe you are of how dangerous a city is.

Also, Cleveland is around 50 or the year (though obviously larger).

There have been almost 230% more rapes in Cleveland than in Cincy year-to-date for 2013 yet the population is only 33% more. What that means is taking one specific crime's one year number and implying a level of crime isn't a good metric. (Not starting a city vs city battle).

« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 11:41:22 PM by OCtoCincy »

Offline City Blights

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2091 on: July 14, 2013, 05:00:04 AM »
So homicides are up 63% this year so far, but only up a little but compared to 2011. Should also be noted virtually every victim (except 2 that I was able to figure out and leaving out a few juveniles) had a moderate to lengthy rap sheet. Additionally, this year is turning out to be extremely tilted African American. Even more than usual. While there were about 4 of the roughy 40 homicides I couldn't determine race on, the rest have been all African American except 1 (Owner of Hartwell Pizza place).

Committing a crime and being convicted of it does not mean you deserve to die.  That misconception of urban homicide needs to dissolve.

People in suburban communities commit crimes, they just aren't targeted the same way as urban, black youth are by law enforcement nor are they prosecuted as diligently.  Many urban offenders wouldn't have an offense on their record if they had proper legal representation.

Within every city in the industrialized world there are pockets of violence, and large areas where there isn't.  Writing homicide off as black criminals killing other black criminals is ignorance of the plague right in front of us.  Black males are born into communities where the homicide rate for people that share the same race and gender are above 60 per 100,000.

I calculated homicide rates for black males in a few cities.  This is taking into account that 90% of almost any American city's homicides are black people and 90% of those or more are males.  Blacks in almost every city are mostly clustered into a few areas, so the concept at large of communities suffering through epidemic is maintained.  I also considered that within the crumbling areas of inner cities, there are many more women than men on average, so I used a breakdown of 54% female, 46% male.  I used a 10-year average on homicides, but only the most current population figures.  I realize that population is a flexible figure, but part of the reason some of these cities have declined in population is because of homicide, so I wouldn't consider using 2012 population estimates as artificial inflation of the statistic.  For Chicago and it's unique demographic, I used different metrics.  75% of Chicago homicides are committed against black males instead of the standard 90% in more monochromatic cities like the other four.  Keep in mind that this includes infants and the elderly, so for males from ages 11-55, the numbers would be much higher.

Detroit: 110 black males murdered per 100,000 black male residents
Baltimore: 112 per 100,000
Cleveland: 70 per 100,000
Cincinnati: 92 per 100,000
Chicago: 81 per 100,00 black male residents

Are these acceptable environments to raise a family?  Is it not likely that a black male may find himself in trouble based on the circumstances he was born into?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 05:02:17 AM by City Blights »

Online unusualfire

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2092 on: July 14, 2013, 05:14:41 AM »
^ I don't understand the numbers. Cincinnati never had over 90 murders.

Offline City Blights

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2093 on: July 14, 2013, 05:25:14 AM »
^ I don't understand the numbers. Cincinnati never had over 90 murders.

If Cincinnati had 100,000 black males, that's how many of them would be murdered.

Online unusualfire

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2094 on: July 14, 2013, 05:29:04 AM »
How so? haven't you heard of diminishing returns?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 05:29:39 AM by unusualfire »

Offline City Blights

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2095 on: July 14, 2013, 06:11:35 AM »
How so? haven't you heard of diminishing returns?

Of course.  I explained how I calculated the figures in the big post above.  I did the legwork to show that the "criminals vs. criminals" argument correlating to urban homicide is much more complex than that.  I would never say that black males that commit crimes shouldn't be prosecuted.  I'm saying that the environment that many were raised in is even more violent than most think because the standard for calculating homicide rate does not really analyze demographic data outside of total population.

Off the top of my head, here are the round figures for total black male population of all ages in those five cities:

Cleveland: 98,000
Baltimore: 180,000
Detroit: 270,000
Chicago: 410,000
Cincinnati: 62,000
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 06:12:28 AM by City Blights »

Offline Quimbob

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2096 on: July 14, 2013, 09:48:23 AM »
^ I don't understand the numbers. Cincinnati never had over 90 murders.
93 in 1883
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/03/27/editorial_painterguest.html
The population was roughly the same (250-290K)
City footprint was roughly the same
Police complement around 350

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2097 on: July 14, 2013, 11:55:45 AM »
These are fascinating statistics, City Blights. They really help to show how difficult it must be to lift oneself out of such sh!tty life circumstances. Who wouldn't be overloaded with stress at a way-too-early age when people are dying all around you, and you might be next? How hard it must be to see past that blunt reality, to find school success more worthy of aspiration than mere street survival skills. To even imagine what the alternative would be like, or that there is an alternative at all.

Still, I think OCtoCincy has a good point that if you don't fall into the poor black male with a rap sheet (inflated as it may be) demographic, then you have little to fear in the way of being murdered in Cincinnati. That doesn't mean anyone deserves to be murdered. It just means the fears, of those from more privileged demographics, of living in or venturing into the city are bogus.

Offline MissinOhio

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2098 on: July 14, 2013, 01:49:58 PM »
You're underestimating the homicides in Fairfield (had 6 past year alone) Colerain, etc. if bet its closer to 10-12 more outside of city year-to-date and 50 for the whole metro.

Also, since the vast majority of homicides in the city are just a couple neighborhoods and are virtually entirely among people with records and with victims who know their killer, it's hardly a statistic to determine how safe you are of how dangerous a city is.

Also, Cleveland is around 50 or the year (though obviously larger).

There have been almost 230% more rapes in Cleveland than in Cincy year-to-date for 2013 yet the population is only 33% more. What that means is taking one specific crime's one year number and implying a level of crime isn't a good metric. (Not starting a city vs city battle).

This isn't the Cleveland crime thread.  The point of the matter is Cincinnati has had a dramatic increase in homicides, and some are not just limited to bad neighborhoods, but popular sections of OTR.  Cincinnati better get its crime figured out quick.  The numbers that are coming out of the city are sad for a city of under 300,000.

Offline MissinOhio

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Re: Cincinnati: Crime Discussion
« Reply #2099 on: July 14, 2013, 01:53:45 PM »
These are fascinating statistics, City Blights. They really help to show how difficult it must be to lift oneself out of such sh!tty life circumstances. Who wouldn't be overloaded with stress at a way-too-early age when people are dying all around you, and you might be next? How hard it must be to see past that blunt reality, to find school success more worthy of aspiration than mere street survival skills. To even imagine what the alternative would be like, or that there is an alternative at all.

Still, I think OCtoCincy has a good point that if you don't fall into the poor black male with a rap sheet (inflated as it may be) demographic, then you have little to fear in the way of being murdered in Cincinnati. That doesn't mean anyone deserves to be murdered. It just means the fears, of those from more privileged demographics, of living in or venturing into the city are bogus.

Race shouldn't matter.  I see where people are going with the African American male homicides, but if I were a young professional moving into the city and I heard about all the shootings in OTR or was enjoying Washington Park and heard gunshots, you bet I would think twice about that area.  I love the city, but there are certain aspects of people who live in the suburbs who wouldn't dream of this thing on a more "regular" basis.