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Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 26945 times)

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Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5130 on: March 20, 2017, 03:32:34 PM »
^ are you watching the hearing?  It is not overblown at all. 

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5131 on: March 20, 2017, 03:33:57 PM »
Let this sink in, brethren. Comey confirms the President is under FBI investigation for colluding with an enemy of the USA.

You phrased that oddly - the FBI is investigating the (completely baseless) accusations made by Democrats and the liberal media, and will almost certainly refute them in due time. It would be a failure of the system - and our country as a whole - if they didn't investigate this in order to put the nonsense to rest once and for all (maybe I'm a bit optimistic, there will probably always be straws for a few obsessed individuals to shamelessly grasp at).



Anyways, as it's such a slow news day today (slow for both real and fake news), everyone should take an extra long moment to celebrate the 11th birthday of America's first son!


the thing about this sham investigation is that it's gone on so long that at this point they need to continue it in order to save face, but eventually it's going to prove empty. I think the tactic the Democrats are using is to draw it out for so long that 1) gradually people will grow tired of hearing about it, or 2) maybe find a way to end it gracefully enough that they don't look like complete fools. Another problem is that Trump's opponents are still so unhinged at the moment and they're still in a lynch-mob mode, so it's unpredictable how they'll react to this fruitless witch hunt, especially since their "leaders" have ginned up their expectations to such degree that nothing less than an impeachable offense will satisfy their blood lust. It's kind of scary what sort of tactics they might resort to when those expectations are dashed. Sad.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5132 on: March 20, 2017, 03:38:43 PM »
^ This investigation was not started by Democrats.  The intelligence committee was just informed today that there is an investigation into collusion.

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5133 on: March 20, 2017, 03:40:38 PM »
^ are you watching the hearing?  It is not overblown at all. 

I'm referring specifically to the idea of hot collusion between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. I'm not watching the hearing- has any new evidence really been disclosed? Or is still just the weak-ish circumstantial stuff, like meetings and the mere fact that there is an investigation?

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5134 on: March 20, 2017, 03:46:42 PM »
James Comey has confirmed an investigation into collusion between the campaign and Russia.  He GLOMARed any specific questions but he did outright deny Trump's preposterous claim.  Let me ask you, if he can deny Trump's assertion then he would certainly deny whether collusion exists.  This is a serious investigation. 

This was not started by the democrats at all. 


Comey and Rogers also admitted that Trump's comments about British intelligence creates tension with UK
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 03:48:48 PM by down4cle »

Offline E Rocc

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5135 on: March 20, 2017, 03:51:50 PM »
^ are you watching the hearing?  It is not overblown at all. 

I'm referring specifically to the idea of hot collusion between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. I'm not watching the hearing- has any new evidence really been disclosed? Or is still just the weak-ish circumstantial stuff, like meetings and the mere fact that there is an investigation?

Some may recall when it was leaked that Trump offered Kasich the powers of the Presidency if he would run as his VP.  Trump later tweeted he was not offered that “by me”.   Two very important words as Kasich claimed the offer was made by one of the sons.

Similarly, the word “campaign” is of key importance here.  I mistrust the SOB about as much as I do the Clintons, but if they can't prove he knew about it (edit), that makes a huge difference.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 04:03:45 PM by E Rocc »

Offline sir2gees

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5136 on: March 20, 2017, 03:53:14 PM »
I'll say this...there are a lot of coincidences and a lot of lying by the Trump campaign when it comes to Russia. The fact Comey confirmed there's an investigation is significant. Will we see where this goes...

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5137 on: March 20, 2017, 03:53:48 PM »
Trump's actions during the campaign and his love affair with Putin lead me to believe that he is involved here.  This was alluded to in the hearing.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5138 on: March 20, 2017, 03:56:20 PM »
This is Trump right now:


Offline E Rocc

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5139 on: March 20, 2017, 04:04:54 PM »
I'll say this...there are a lot of coincidences and a lot of lying by the Trump campaign when it comes to Russia. The fact Comey confirmed there's an investigation is significant. Will we see where this goes...

That's what I thought during the election.  I'm less sure he was personally involved than I was.   Bannon, Flynn et al I am pretty sure of.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5140 on: March 20, 2017, 04:06:07 PM »
^ If he wasn't aware then he is too clueless to be president.  Full stop.

He is either complicit or stupid.

Offline jbcmh81

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5141 on: March 20, 2017, 04:16:15 PM »
I'll say this...there are a lot of coincidences and a lot of lying by the Trump campaign when it comes to Russia. The fact Comey confirmed there's an investigation is significant. Will we see where this goes...

That's what I thought during the election.  I'm less sure he was personally involved than I was.   Bannon, Flynn et al I am pretty sure of.

My problem with Trump is that he would either have to be the dumbest, most oblivious patsy of all time, or directly involved.  The latter is obviously worse, but the former is damn scary as well.  There really isn't a conclusion where Trump walks away from this looking good.  And outside of the collusion stuff, he's still just an awful human being with significant psychological issues. 

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5142 on: March 20, 2017, 04:17:26 PM »
This is the takeaway for those not watching.  My apologies to Reddit contributor that I stole this from:

Democrats - Was there collusion with Russia? What did Russia hack and were they able to effect?
Republicans - Who leaked this? Isn't it illegal to leak this? Are you trying to find who leaked information on Michael Flynn?

Also Republicans (Nunes) - Will you investigate the Clinton campaign if there is evidence of collusion?

It is obvious that an independent investigation is needed.  Nunes is dirty.  I think Comey know is too.

Offline jbcmh81

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5143 on: March 20, 2017, 04:18:12 PM »
^ If he wasn't aware then he is too clueless to be president.  Full stop.

He is either complicit or stupid.

Yep, it's one or the other.  No matter the outcome of the investigation, I'm glad we are getting to the truth either way.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5144 on: March 20, 2017, 04:20:50 PM »
^ the way he gushed over Putin and never criticizes him leads me to believe that he is involved.  Also, his effort to try to discredit the Intelligence Community and deny that anyone was aware that Russia was involved in the hacking. 

It is starting to look like Harry Reed was right.

Online X

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5145 on: March 20, 2017, 04:31:00 PM »
Picks fights with all of our allies, but nothing except praise for Putin.  Silent on Russia's aggression in Crimea and Syria.  Silent on Russian intelligence's meddling in Western Democracies.  Silent on Putin's human rights abuses, equates his authoritarian regime with America.  Wants to weaken or dismantle NATO, UN, EU, and any other alliance we have with a country that defies Russia.  If Trump isn't a bought man then that means he's delivered himself for free.  If he isn't a puppet, he still dances to Putin's tune perfectly.

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5146 on: March 20, 2017, 04:44:23 PM »
Trump admires the strongman aura and couldn't care less about the actual substance of governing. Putin MRGA. Putin is "respected." Putin said nice things about Trump. They were on the same episode of 60 minutes together.  This insane line of reasoning just seems totally consistent with everything else we've seen from Trump. It's ridiculous, but doesn't beg for any actual conspiracy for it to make sense to me. I could be totally wrong, but this seems a lot more like symbiosis than collusion.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5147 on: March 20, 2017, 04:51:10 PM »
The current President of the United States is under investigation for treason. 

Let

that

sink

in

Offline audidave

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5148 on: March 20, 2017, 04:59:54 PM »
My feeling is that Trunp has been the Moscow candidate. I would expect that Trump has billions in loans from Russia.  They likely have compromising video tape as well. 
   So if Trump is beholden to Putin no wonder he acts like he does.  He has had very pro-Putin people in many positions.  Until the FBI gets to the bottom of the money deals with Russia, the investigation will continue. 

Offline jbcmh81

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5149 on: March 20, 2017, 05:20:47 PM »
Trump admires the strongman aura and couldn't care less about the actual substance of governing. Putin MRGA. Putin is "respected." Putin said nice things about Trump. They were on the same episode of 60 minutes together.  This insane line of reasoning just seems totally consistent with everything else we've seen from Trump. It's ridiculous, but doesn't beg for any actual conspiracy for it to make sense to me. I could be totally wrong, but this seems a lot more like symbiosis than collusion.

Trump seems to value loyalty, but also someone who strokes his ego.  Would it really be that hard to win Trump over to any cause with the right methods?  He doesn't seem to actually have any real values beyond enriching his own pockets and narcissism, so it's not exactly hard to believe he would sell out his own country for a little more attention and cash.

Offline Ram23

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5150 on: March 20, 2017, 05:23:46 PM »
I'll say this...there are a lot of coincidences and a lot of lying by the Trump campaign when it comes to Russia. The fact Comey confirmed there's an investigation is significant. Will we see where this goes...

That's what I thought during the election.  I'm less sure he was personally involved than I was.   Bannon, Flynn et al I am pretty sure of.

My problem with Trump is that he would either have to be the dumbest, most oblivious patsy of all time, or directly involved.  The latter is obviously worse, but the former is damn scary as well.  There really isn't a conclusion where Trump walks away from this looking good.

Willful ignorance begets plausible deniability. If there were something going on involving Russia (and believe me, that's a really, really big "if"), Trump is smart enough and self-aware enough to not ask anyone any questions. It's only a bonus that the ignorant masses mistakenly identify this cunning behavior as "dumb" or indicative of "a patsy" when in reality it is the exact opposite.

And there is a conclusion where Trump walks away from this looking good. It's the most likely one - the investigation will turn up no evidence, and Democrats will be left in terrible shape in 2018. "Russia!" is their last hope and it's a long shot. We probably won't see anything more than what's currently known - tidbits of circumstantial evidence that Russia might have done the hacking. There's no evidence proving it was Russia. There's no evidence connecting Trump to the leaks. There's no evidence Trump has any connections to Putin or Russia at all. Even if all of this were true, the odds of proving it would be about one in a million. However, those odds compound with the reality that the possibility of this being true to begin with are about one in a million as well. Do the math - those aren't good odds. They are very, very bad odds. And what's truly scary if you're a Democrat is that short of all of this coming true and leading to an impeachment, the Democratic base will be decimated by the midterms and moderates will abandon them in droves.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5151 on: March 20, 2017, 05:28:31 PM »
Only stupid people look at this situation through a political lens.   This is beyond politics.

Online Gramarye

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5152 on: March 20, 2017, 05:55:03 PM »
I'll say this...there are a lot of coincidences and a lot of lying by the Trump campaign when it comes to Russia. The fact Comey confirmed there's an investigation is significant. Will we see where this goes...

That's what I thought during the election.  I'm less sure he was personally involved than I was.   Bannon, Flynn et al I am pretty sure of.

E Rocc, just to clarify, are you "pretty sure" that Bannon and Flynn were actively colluding with Russia to violate American cyber-security laws (or at least had knowledge of such violations perpetrated within the jurisdiction of the US and failed to report them to law enforcement)?  Or just that they had politically sensitive conversations with Russian agents and have lied about it since then?

Remember, Bannon and even Flynn were never themselves in possession of any confidential information that would have assisted the Russians in hacking the Podesta and DNC e-mails.  I have no doubt that Russian agents were behind it.  What I question is whether the Russians would have even solicited the help of people like Bannon and Flynn, who could offer no assistance and whom the Russians most likely wanted in power, given the likelihood that Trump and his team would be the least hostile presidency towards Russia of literally any of the 22 contenders (17 Republicans and 5 Democrats) who started out seeking the presidency (or any Libertarian or Green contender, for that matter).  So what colluding is argued to have happened?  Maybe that Russians tipped off the Trump campaign as to when big leaks were going to drop at WikiLeaks?  I have little reason to doubt that WikiLeaks is effectively a Russian front site at this point, regardless of whether it was ever anything else in the past, but even if Russia gave advance notice of such drops to the Trump campaign (and as yet, we certainly haven't seen beyond-reasonable-doubt-level evidence that that happened), what does the campaign's non-reporting of that amount to?  How would you distinguish between that and the hypothetical in which a hacker penetrated the cyber-security of the Trump Organization and/or whatever accounting firm does Trump's taxes and posted a full copy of all the returns on the Internet for the world to see?  Or, for that matter, penetrated Breitbart and published internal e-mails among the permanent staff there (which I assume are infinitely saltier than anything found in the DNC leaks)?

Then again, maybe I just circled around to an answer to my own question: Those things would not actually be the basis for legitimate criminal investigations of the Clinton campaign itself.  But they would certainly be used by Republicans to attempt to delegitimize her presidency relentlessly from the outset, which is the real purpose of most of this progressive-troll caterwauling.

Offline jbcmh81

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5153 on: March 20, 2017, 05:59:46 PM »
I'll say this...there are a lot of coincidences and a lot of lying by the Trump campaign when it comes to Russia. The fact Comey confirmed there's an investigation is significant. Will we see where this goes...

That's what I thought during the election.  I'm less sure he was personally involved than I was.   Bannon, Flynn et al I am pretty sure of.

My problem with Trump is that he would either have to be the dumbest, most oblivious patsy of all time, or directly involved.  The latter is obviously worse, but the former is damn scary as well.  There really isn't a conclusion where Trump walks away from this looking good.

Willful ignorance begets plausible deniability. If there were something going on involving Russia (and believe me, that's a really, really big "if"), Trump is smart enough and self-aware enough to not ask anyone any questions. It's only a bonus that the ignorant masses mistakenly identify this cunning behavior as "dumb" or indicative of "a patsy" when in reality it is the exact opposite.

And there is a conclusion where Trump walks away from this looking good. It's the most likely one - the investigation will turn up no evidence, and Democrats will be left in terrible shape in 2018. "Russia!" is their last hope and it's a long shot. We probably won't see anything more than what's currently known - tidbits of circumstantial evidence that Russia might have done the hacking. There's no evidence proving it was Russia. There's no evidence connecting Trump to the leaks. There's no evidence Trump has any connections to Putin or Russia at all. Even if all of this were true, the odds of proving it would be about one in a million. However, those odds compound with the reality that the possibility of this being true to begin with are about one in a million as well. Do the math - those aren't good odds. They are very, very bad odds. And what's truly scary if you're a Democrat is that short of all of this coming true and leading to an impeachment, the Democratic base will be decimated by the midterms and moderates will abandon them in droves.

I don't think anyone really expects you to acknowledge that there are *at least* enough concerning coincidences to have warranted an investigation.  Your "there is no there, there" act is totally illogical, even as a supporter. 

Let's actually look at the possibilities:
1. Trump directly colluded with the Russians to influence the US election in his favor.  Trump is booted from office in the biggest presidential scandal of all-time and potentially, if not likely, would face prison.
2. Trump didn't directly collude, but was aware that members of his campaign were and did nothing to stop it.  That is at least being complicit.  He still ends up booted from office in disgrace, but other consequences are unknown.
3. Trump didn't directly collude, and was completely unaware that members of his campaign were.  Trump ends up looking oblivious and with questionable abilities to function as president, particularly in his ability to surround himself with the "best people".  He would look easily manipulated and would be humiliated.  He would probably stay in office, but his reputation would be even further tarnished outside of his rabid supporters who would continue to come up with creative excuses on how awesome he is.
4. No one within the Trump team, before or since the election, had any direct or indirect involvement with hacking or collusion.  The Russian government, however, did take action to help Trump win without his consent, because they believed that Trump was better for their interests than Hillary.  While this wouldn't necessarily hurt Trump, it would perhaps call into question the legitimacy of his win.
5. Trump didn't collude, no one in his campaign team did either, the Russians totally minded their own business and all of the connections and smoke are just a series of unfortunate misunderstandings and coincidences.  Trump and his team are exonerated legally, but their reputation would still probably take a hit just because people believe what they want and this kind of stuff leaves a stain, not that different than when people believed everything about Hillary.  And Trump would still be an extremely controversial, often-immoral human being that would no doubt involve the nation in many further embarrassments.

You're obviously going with #5, only without any lasting negative views whatsoever.  This seems the least likely to me.  It's by far the least logical given the behavior of Trump and his team and all of the many connections that have been established.  Now, for me personally, while I am not convinced it is #1, I am personally pretty confident in saying it's not #5.  In fact, I would say #5 is impossible, just because we already know that the Russians hacked the Democrats and did not mind their own business.  I'm thinking it has to be #3 or higher.



« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 06:13:58 PM by jbcmh81 »

Offline audidave

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5154 on: March 20, 2017, 06:12:22 PM »
This isn't just about hacking and timing of releases by Russia and wikileaks. This is about an onslaught of fake news and disinformation that was also directed by Russia and their troll farms. This is about a potential quid pro quo with sanctions loosening.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5155 on: March 20, 2017, 06:44:50 PM »
Remember this is only the first public hearing and we already know that there is an investigation into the treasonous activities of the Trump campaign.   I can only imagine what Feinstein and Grassley llwere told in private.

Also, this investigation goes back to July.   The fact it is still ongoing is very telling.  Fake stories like trump's wiretap are dispelled quickly.  I wonder what song Mike Flynn is singing these days

Lock them up

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5156 on: March 20, 2017, 07:14:00 PM »
Trump admires the strongman aura and couldn't care less about the actual substance of governing. Putin MRGA. Putin is "respected." Putin said nice things about Trump. They were on the same episode of 60 minutes together.  This insane line of reasoning just seems totally consistent with everything else we've seen from Trump. It's ridiculous, but doesn't beg for any actual conspiracy for it to make sense to me. I could be totally wrong, but this seems a lot more like symbiosis than collusion.

I totally agree about Trump's admiration of political strongmen. He's held a similiarly high opinion of Filipino president Duterte despite his use of death squads against thousands of accused criminals.

However... The business and financial links between Russian oligarchs (all of whom engage to some degree in criminal behavior as a matter of course) to Trump, his inner circle and some in his cabinet is well documented, extensive and lucrative. How does Trump sell a $41 million Florida estate to a Russian mobster for $95 million? Because the mobster was just being a nice guy?? To know Russia is to know that they expect a quid pro quo. And since all Russian oligarchs operate (er, live or die) with the express permission of Putin, the quid pro quo is ultimately between Putin and Trump even if the two had never spoken. But of course they have spoken, as have their subordinates. It's all well documented and published.

As for the others' critiques of the leaks and liberal media... If it takes whistleblowers and the liberal media to reclaim democracy from enemies that conservatives used to abhor but have now sold their souls, then so be it. A prison cell looks and feels the same to a liberal or conservative.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline down4cle

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5157 on: March 20, 2017, 08:27:14 PM »
Hillary Clinton was right.  Trump is putin's puppet.   Everyone with a half a brain could tell during the campaign.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5158 on: March 20, 2017, 08:28:05 PM »
These tweets by Anders Östlund, the founder of several European business networks, are priceless:

It appears many American politicians consider the New York Times to be a bigger threat to national security than Russia.

The party of Lincoln, Eisenhower and Reagan is now a complete disgrace. This will be a headache for historians for decades to come.

I always honestly believed Americans were all patriots at heart.

I was wrong.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline KJP

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #5159 on: March 20, 2017, 08:28:27 PM »
Very good summary and realistic theory of Trump's deal with Putin. It's all about the money. Read the whole thread. 
#Trump #Russia https://t.co/AOMEDL7nyt
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.