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Author Topic: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena  (Read 4530 times)

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Offline Motorist

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2016, 03:41:37 PM »
This is like arguing that the planet isn't getting warmer because it was cold outside yesterday.  No matter how strongly  you may feel that the corporate welfare for sports teams results in other sorts of income for the region that makes it a net gain, the people that study this for a living say that this is just not the case.  I don't know what else to say about it.  All evidence, aside from your feelings, says that these giveaways just do not provide a positive financial return.  I suppose you can still call it an investment but it's almost certainly a losing investment.  Welfare is probably the more accurate description.

Additionally, the return of people to downtown Cleveland was going to happen despite any sports team or politician.  Cleveland is simply following a national trend.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2016, 04:21:43 PM »
This is like arguing that the planet isn't getting warmer because it was cold outside yesterday.  No matter how strongly  you may feel that the corporate welfare for sports teams results in other sorts of income for the region that makes it a net gain, the people that study this for a living say that this is just not the case.  I don't know what else to say about it.  All evidence, aside from your feelings, says that these giveaways just do not provide a positive financial return.  I suppose you can still call it an investment but it's almost certainly a losing investment.  Welfare is probably the more accurate description.

Additionally, the return of people to downtown Cleveland was going to happen despite any sports team or politician.  Cleveland is simply following a national trend.

The 'net gain' is the manufactured psychological advantage of having staved off the owner's moving the housed sports team to another city.

Offline audidave

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2016, 04:27:11 PM »
I'm not opposed to reinvestment. I just think it should be a good amount of bang for the buck.  This seems like whatever the designer and architects dreamed up they are doing.  The charges will be passed on to even more expensive shows and Cavs games. 
  So unless the bottom bowl seats are being replaced with posh new ones i don't see a direct benefit to the general public.

Offline dhm

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2016, 05:03:32 PM »
Roldo Bartimole's point of view on the Q overhaul...

Quote
SAD STORY OF LOCAL SPORTS CORRUPTION

Why do we offer significant welfare to an industry—sports—worth billions of dollars: NFL—$76 billion; NBA $54 billion; MLB $38 billion?

That’s a lot of dollar value. Yet our revenue-struggling city/county pick up the tab. We get extorted in public.

Three sports businesses are worth a total of $168 billion. And always growing. The NFL, best in sharing TV revenue, recently added $27 million to $131 million per team, according to Sports Business Journal.

City after city extorted.

Yet they continue to grab more government revenue. Welfare for the rich.

I don’t see professional ball players complaining, as they do about other civil matters. They are major kleptomaniac takers. They remain hypocritical to their own benefit.

The value figures here are from Forbes magazine for 2016.

These are industries on the take. Corrupt and corrupting our politics. It will only get worse. Because we allow it.

Our media, which act ONLY as promoters of the pilferage, bestow constant positive coverage. The Plain Dealer, the Sunday after the World Series, ran five newspaper sections of 44 pages, all on the sports.

What does that say?

This is pandering in the extreme. The newspaper fails miserable to tell the story of what these teams cost the city and county. Chris Quinn did a mea coup on the PD‘s poor coverage of the Presidential race and asks us to tell them what to do. “… Leave out the polemics and personal attacks,” he writes. Chris, you fail so wretchedly on so many important local issues that telling you—nice or mean—is totally useless.

We need an independent press—newspaper and television—and that’s why people have no trust in the media. A sad and dangerous condition for a democracy. You ignore the truth.

Our hapless Cleveland Browns paid its players $182 million for 2016. How could they pay so much for so little? Easy. We subsidize them with a $300 million stadium that they pay a pittance ($250,000 annually never to increase over 30 years) in rent and NO property taxes. That’s why.

The Browns, heading apparently to a winless season, had revenue of $347 million and operating income of $53 million but couldn’t pay property taxes on their relatively new stadium. Most of the lost money would have gone to the Cleveland schools. Or a Clevelander would have paid pay in property taxes.

Peter Pattakos, at a recent panel on sports facilities, asked the CAVs CEO Len Komoroski, to reveal the team’s profits. Likely chance.

Billionaire incompetents Jimmy and Dee Haslam, Browns owners, had gate receipts of $54 million and each fan spent an average of $58 at a game. With 67,000 fans that should work out to $3,886,000 in beer and food per game. Plus $54 million in gate receipts for how many home games? I count nine with a couple to go. Who knows how much from TV revenues and league dollar sharing?

With packed houses in-stadium sale at $58 a head would indicate another $35 million in addition to the gate receipts of $54 million. Or some $89 million a year in revenue flow.

Why can’t they pay their own bills? Only because we Cleveland suckers, led by the nose by pols as Mayor Frank Jackson and his buddy Fred Nance of Squire-Sanders, pay for them.

Major League Baseball, also at the teat of Cleveland taxpayers, has a total value of $38 billion. Why can’t they pay their own bills as every business is expected to do? Because we – our pols, our media, ourselves—allow them to be rich beggars.

Dumb Larry Dolan paid some $323 million to Dick Jacobs for the Cleveland Indians. Now we have to bail him out apparently. Despite lower than expected attendance for a team that almost won the World Series, gate receipts were $30 million. Revenue per fan for goodies at the game was $56 each.

In 2016 attendance was 1,591,667, or more than $89 million in revenue. Total gate receipts and in-stadium purchases would be $129 million or so.

We built them a $5.1 million restaurant, fully-equipped, largest in downtown Cleveland within the stadium. It’s open year round for even charities to hold annual events overlooking the lighted baseball field.

Want anything else, boys?

The Dolans don’t pay property taxes on the stadium either. And they have taken over the naming rights of Progressive Insurance, over $1 million a year.

Now to our biggest rip-off artist of all in Cleveland – Dan “Casino” Gilbert and his NBA’s Cavaliers.

The NBA is a $54 billion business (all team value) but it leans on cities to pay its bills.

The Cavs value is $1.1 billion as of January 2016. It has operating income of $24.8 million, revenue of $191 million. Gilbert purchased the team for $375, so he’s (with our help) has about tripled the value. Gate receipts were $52 million and revenue per attendee $69. With attendance of more than 20,000 a game and 41 regular season games that $69 a head, it adds up to $1.39 million per game or $56.5 million for 41 games. That doesn’t count post season or arena filled for away games.

The money just keeps rolling in. And we keep giving them more.

Not enough, however. Why pay your own bills? Just beg for more.

Thank you Mayor Jackson. Thank you County Executive Budish.

Presently, the Cavs are asking for some $60 million from Cuyahoga County for the Quicken Arena, which bears the name of Gilbert’s Quicken Loan Company. However, the public, which provides the arena and much of the fix-up money, isn’t told what the cost of the naming rights might be.

Gilbert also gets use our entire arena all of the time. Cavs CEO Len Komoroski gave a hint to how much MORE revenue Gilbert takes from the arena by bragging at a panel that these robber barons hold 200 more ticketed events. They take the revenue, but not before complaining about the city’s admission tax. They take a chunk of that too.

The city and county—people like Mike White, Tim Hagan, Tom Chema, Fred Nance, Frank Jackson and a host of city and county council members—bestow these gifts. On our behalf, of course.

Maybe naming rights dollars don’t matter either. Because those dollars go from one Gilbert pocket to another Gilbert pocket. One million dollars, two million dollars, who cares?

It doesn’t go into the public revenue stream because Gilbert takes all he can, when he can, how he can.

And like the Haslams and the Dolans, Gilbert practices civic banditry. They have hijacked our city and county governments.

The last time I looked, the three teams combined were avoiding property taxes of $16 million a year. With the outlook of 30 year of operations that would mean the loss of $480 million total. More than half of the sum would go to the Cleveland schools. Not Shaker Heights, Beachwood, Parma, Rocky River, but Cleveland schools alone.

A kick in the ass by Mayor Frank Jackson, supporter of the Cleveland schools, he says. He says.

Think they might miss that $240 million or so.

Where is the outcry of the Cleveland teachers union? Or any city Council member or the NAACP, or the Call & Post, or PD, or Chs. 3, 5, 8, or Brent Larkin, who promised back in the early 1990s that he would ride herd on Gateway. He’s done nothing.

The County now has a $1 billion debt weighing upon it and no legitimate path to meet these continuing costs.

It continues to become difficult for a city and a county losing population. Cuyahoga County lost some 24,000 population since 2010. Why live here if you don’t have to. You know you’re being ripped off.

The political answer thus far has been to raise or extend taxes. The latest extension of the hotel tax, which is paid most likely by visitors, for 40 years, suggests the difficulty. A forty year extension!

Why so long, County Commissioners? Easy answer.

We are running out of taxes—mostly are seriously regressive—to fund our supposed resurgence. Surprisingly to me for city councilman, now County Councilman Dale Miller, ordinarily conservative at least in thought (he votes for these things in the final analysis), is the one pushing a tax 40 years into the future.

Why? Because the County, as County Executive Budish is finding, has bitten off more than it can chew. Debt has become a problem with few alternatives left, especially as government keeps giving away tax sources. A 40-year extension at $15 a year will mean another $600 million in public funds. Budish wants to use the first infusion for the Cavs arena.

Let me remind you, these are Democrats. It doesn’t matter. The REAL decision-makers reside quietly and anonymously at the Greater Cleveland Partnership, formerly Cleveland Tomorrow, and formerly the Growth Association. The names change. The game remains the same. These are all Republicans. And they RULE.

No dollars for public transpiration, which badly needs resuscitation. Instead, it gets short-shrift from local government, especially Mayor Jackson, who wants to close off Superior Ave. for Public Square purposes. One purpose for Public Square, conveniently redone with $50 million in front of Dan Gilbert’s casino, is to keep blacks from the front of Terminal Tower and the casino. Mayor Jackson is considered African-American.

Chema, the propagandist, tried to argue at a recent panel that the sports facilities, primarily subsidized by taxes, were merely necessary infrastructure, the same as roads, sewers, etc., normal city infrastructure, that serves grocery stores and other shops or any business on the street. No difference.

What sophistry!

Chema failed to distinguish is that the private business of baseball, football and basketball facilities enjoy the same public investments. Normal businesses, however, don’t get their structures built for them. The sports facilities actually get much, much more. Indeed, even the normal city infrastructure all deserve, they get much more. If you walk or ride the Gateway area you will notice all kinds of free signage, street paving and curbing of thick granite that you won’t find in any neighborhoods. Not crumbly cheap cement.

And protection. I checked last year and found that the sports facilities used 34,000 hours of city police time. The city, hampered by serious crime, provided 7,788 hours of it, overtime for the facilities. Do neighborhoods get special treatment?

Where are our priorities?

So the team owners get AND MORE infrastructure, physical and labor than the Chema grocery store and other ordinary business.

And those businesses unlike the three Cleveland-based sports facilities, paid for by hundreds of millions of tax dollars, have to pay property taxes. The team owners HAVE ARRANGED WITH POLITICAL FRIENDS AND THEIR LAWYERS—TO PAY NO PROPERTY TAXES ON THEIR BUSINESS STRUCTURES.

The city and county – people like Mike White, Tim Hagan, Tom Chema, Fred Nance, Frank Jackson and a host of city and county council members – bestowed these gifts.

I’d like to know what they got in return.

Where is the politician who will demand the Santa Claus leases given these rich owners get renegotiated?

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2016, 06:23:39 PM »
I remember there being a hell of a lot more daytime workers and companies of all sizes, with the Flats being a once in a lifetime party scene that few cities have ever witnessed, not to mention the orchestra, ballet, and theater district thriving. And that was without Gateway and the Browns stadium. Somehow the city managed.


Hmmm... no gateway or Brown stadium, but there was Municipal Stadium that housed the Browns and the Indians.

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2016, 09:40:47 AM »
When Lebron came back, downtown bars reported an increase of 30 to 200 percent on Game nights. That is a FACT. The county tax receipts went up. Economic activity overall increases in Cleveland on game nights. That is also a FACT. If you think there would be as many downtown restaurants surviving without Cavs game nights downtown, I have beachfront property in Oklahoma to sell you. Not to mention the fact the the new arena will allow us to continue attracting major events which add another event night to a market that's built around event nights. All of those are facts. The NBA has already said that we're likely to get the All Star game with the transformation happening. The Q is our MSG. I'm amazed at how many people here have no understanding of how The Cavs in general and the Q in particular impact the downtown market.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2016, 10:56:34 AM »
Some would say you can't build a downtown on restaurants and bars.  Astronomical beer sales aren't a bad thing but they don't solve much apart from a lack of astronomical beer sales.  Some would further say that the money we have no problem spending on this sort of thing never seems to be available when other priorities are suggested.  We're always broke, except for those times when we suddenly aren't. 

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2016, 12:34:12 PM »
Some would say you can't build a downtown on restaurants and bars.  Astronomical beer sales aren't a bad thing but they don't solve much apart from a lack of astronomical beer sales.  Some would further say that the money we have no problem spending on this sort of thing never seems to be available when other priorities are suggested.  We're always broke, except for those times when we suddenly aren't.

I don't think anyone is saying that you should have nothing but a Downtown filled with restaurants and bars but it's foolish to not have it and it's doubly foolish to willingly do something to harm what you currently have

Offline TBideon

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2016, 02:44:41 PM »
My point is it's foolish for tax payers, many of whom are low income and themselves derive no benefit, to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to billionaires to indirectly benefit relatively few hotels, restaurants, and parking lot owners. The financial benefits just aren't there as a whole.

And yes the city is contractually obligated -- I'm just commenting on the principle
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 02:50:44 PM by TBideon »

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2016, 03:07:58 PM »
Some would say you can't build a downtown on restaurants and bars.  Astronomical beer sales aren't a bad thing but they don't solve much apart from a lack of astronomical beer sales.  Some would further say that the money we have no problem spending on this sort of thing never seems to be available when other priorities are suggested.  We're always broke, except for those times when we suddenly aren't.

I don't think anyone is saying that you should have nothing but a Downtown filled with restaurants and bars but it's foolish to not have it and it's doubly foolish to willingly do something to harm what you currently have

No one has proposed reducing or degrading what we currently have.  The debate is over how to invest additional money.  The more I think about it, the more I think we've spent enough public funds on visitor amenities.  Time to start focusing resources on the needs of those who live here. 

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2016, 03:33:12 PM »
My point is it's foolish for tax payers, many of whom are low income and themselves derive no benefit, to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to billionaires to indirectly benefit relatively few hotels, restaurants, and parking lot owners. The financial benefits just aren't there as a whole.

And yes the city is contractually obligated -- I'm just commenting on the principle

I get what you're saying. But you also can't forget that some of those low-income taxpayers are employed by the very restaurant and parking lots that are kept busy by events at Quicken Loans Arena, Progressive Field and the Browns Stadium.

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2016, 04:31:53 PM »
My point is it's foolish for tax payers, many of whom are low income and themselves derive no benefit, to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to billionaires to benefit relatively few hotels and restaurants. The financial benefits just aren't there as a whole

You do realize that many low income people work at those hotels and restaurants that you're perfectly ok with seeing shut down right? So let's say that happens. Is that going to make the situation with low income people better or worse? Furthermore, that's a false choice to begin with. We should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time and deal with both. And finally, from someone who grew up low income myself, the best thing to help low income people is to have more opportunities for them. You get more opportunities by access to jobs and you get more jobs by nurturing the growth of the businesses currently in your city and especially by attracting new businesses. And those businesses want amenities. No business (including my own) wants to be in a place with nothing in it. So it's extremely short sighted to try to make this one vs the other

Offline westerninterloper

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2016, 11:34:35 PM »
My point is it's foolish for tax payers, many of whom are low income and themselves derive no benefit, to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to billionaires to indirectly benefit relatively few hotels, restaurants, and parking lot owners. The financial benefits just aren't there as a whole.

And yes the city is contractually obligated -- I'm just commenting on the principle

I get what you're saying. But you also can't forget that some of those low-income taxpayers are employed by the very restaurant and parking lots that are kept busy by events at Quicken Loans Arena, Progressive Field and the Browns Stadium.

The trick is to make sure that jobs that are supported by taxpayers -- even second and third wave jobs that emerge from the direct investment -- aren't low/minimum wage jobs themselves. Part of the deal for investments like these should be to make sure that the jobs that come from it are living wage jobs that can at least come close to supporting a family.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 11:35:07 PM by westerninterloper »

Offline simplythis

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2017, 07:26:31 PM »
Cleveland City Council passes vote 12-5 on renovations

Offline down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2017, 07:33:13 PM »
It sounds like Gilbert sweetened the pot to get stakeholders on board.  He gave enough to get Cummins.   Maybe Gilbert can teach trump how to negotiate. 

Offline Mendo

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2017, 07:37:52 PM »
Gilbert didn't give up anything except some charitable contributions that'll likely be a tax deduction for his company. The city is still in the hook for the same amount.

Offline down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2017, 07:41:13 PM »
The cave have pledged to make up the difference if admissions taxes fall short.  I think the rec Centers and high schools will appreciate new gym floors.  Habitat for Humanity will also appreciate their donation.   Gilbert is a deal maker.

Offline BelievelandD1

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2017, 07:42:28 PM »
I've thought a lot about this. I think tourism is very important to a city and our arena contributes to a lot of it. I also know our neighborhoods need resources. However, I'm not sure throwing money at neighborhoods will fix them.  The solutions need to be more sustainable and long term than just dollars.  And I haven't seen much from the city of cleveland to trust they will spend it correctly in the struggling neighborhoods anyway.  So I believe that this is an OK move to invest in something that we know will continue to contribute to our downtown, which a long term successful downtown will also have positive implications to our neighborhoods

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2017, 08:46:42 PM »
They made the right decision. This is critically important for keeping us competitive and increasing the amount of non Cavs events in the Q. People would've had more of an argument if this was Browns stadium, which is for the most part only used during Browns season. But the Q is a general benefit to the city and the region as a whole. Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo. Our relevance as a city is very important and this contributes to it. Good job, city council

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2017, 09:33:46 PM »
^what he said.

Offline CleveFan

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2017, 10:09:52 PM »
I'm also very supportive of the city council's vote for the Q upgrades- and I remain unimpressed  with the naysayers who say "we can't invest in a sports arena when our neighborhoods are so needy".  We've got to find a way to do both - it shouldn't be an either/ or argument.  The impact on the region - not just downtown- from not only the Cavs but the many events at the Q is huge.  And those "regular folks" from all the neighborhoods are helped as people  needing hotels, restaurants and other services come here. This is a job creator as well as a quality of life and strategic decision.   Cleveland will remain a major market by hosting  the sports, entertainment and conventions and big events that only happen in major cities. 

Online Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2017, 07:42:26 AM »
I'm also very supportive of the city council's vote for the Q upgrades- and I remain unimpressed  with the naysayers who say "we can't invest in a sports arena when our neighborhoods are so needy".  We've got to find a way to do both - it shouldn't be an either/ or argument.  The impact on the region - not just downtown- from not only the Cavs but the many events at the Q is huge.  And those "regular folks" from all the neighborhoods are helped as people  needing hotels, restaurants and other services come here. This is a job creator as well as a quality of life and strategic decision.   Cleveland will remain a major market by hosting  the sports, entertainment and conventions and big events that only happen in major cities. 

The answer lies in John "I balanced the budget by taking all money away from cities" Kasich.

I'd really like to see how much of our tax dollars come back to us as a region when compared to other small counties. 

Offline Enginerd

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2017, 08:14:53 AM »
I'm also very supportive of the city council's vote for the Q upgrades- and I remain unimpressed  with the naysayers who say "we can't invest in a sports arena when our neighborhoods are so needy".  We've got to find a way to do both - it shouldn't be an either/ or argument.  The impact on the region - not just downtown- from not only the Cavs but the many events at the Q is huge.  And those "regular folks" from all the neighborhoods are helped as people  needing hotels, restaurants and other services come here. This is a job creator as well as a quality of life and strategic decision.   Cleveland will remain a major market by hosting  the sports, entertainment and conventions and big events that only happen in major cities. 

The answer lies in John "I balanced the budget by taking all money away from cities" Kasich.

I'd really like to see how much of our tax dollars come back to us as a region when compared to other small counties.

Your wish is my command ;) For Cuyahoga County it's about a $265 million loss (per year) according to The Plain Dealer's analysis. It's based on averages, but it's probably in the ballpark.

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2017/03/as_donor_counties_cuyahoga_fra.html
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 08:15:32 AM by Enginerd »

Offline down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2017, 08:17:51 AM »
^ This plays out all across the country.  The so-called elite out of touch cities and blue states provide welfare for red states.  Maybe the elites should but out of those good americans' lives altogether instead of subsidizing their "way of life."

Offline rockandroller

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2017, 08:25:15 AM »
I'm not even a sports fan and I agree, keeping the Q updated, cutting edge and current is very important. I have answered questions on Trip Advisor for people coming in from other COUNTRIES to see Cavs games. They are obviously a huge draw, and the other events they have throughout the year seem pretty well attended as well. I know my ex took our kid to the Monster Jam there, for example, and I have a lot of friends who go to Disney stuff and concerts there.

Offline simplythis

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Offline dlte24

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2017, 10:00:07 PM »
They made the right decision. This is critically important for keeping us competitive and increasing the amount of non Cavs events in the Q. People would've had more of an argument if this was Browns stadium, which is for the most part only used during Browns season. But the Q is a general benefit to the city and the region as a whole. Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo. Our relevance as a city is very important and this contributes to it. Good job, city council

"Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo."  What is that supposed to mean? Toledo has concert and event venues. So Toledo and Cleveland were the same place until Gund Arena opened? I hope I don't sound too offended but Clevelanders should know using another city with a negative connotation is problematic and I can't not mention it. If I said "Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Columbus and being Cleveland" wouldn't you be a little annoyed?

Offline simplythis

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2017, 10:17:29 PM »
Just heard on the ch 3 news that there is a last ditch effort by the groups against the Q Renovation trying to get enough signatures to force this issue on the November ballot.
I Don't know if it is possible.

Offline BelievelandD1

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2017, 04:39:22 AM »
^im not so sure that would pass.  The groups against are very passionate, but you are taking on the Cavs.  people in these neighborhoods that are dying for a facelift love the Cavs too. 

Offline musky

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2017, 07:39:54 AM »
That's pretty much what I told my wife, too.
Is this group just trying to collect the signatures for a City-wide referendum, or would this be county-wide?