PLEASE READ!!!

***** ALL users will have to request a password reset BEFORE you will be able to log into the forum. See the thread in the forum issues section for further instructions. If you have issues with this, email us at admin@urbanohio.com. *****

Author Topic: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena  (Read 8447 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online freethink

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2068
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2016, 08:20:54 PM »
Cleveland has to compete if it wants to remain relevant. The Q hosts around 300 event nights per year, well worth the money. If this doesn't happen now we would be talking a new arena in about five years.  It's not just used for sports, this is where this community gathers for just about everything. Its well worth the investment and I would go even farther with the price tag and the upgrade, but this should give us another 15 to 20 years of use.
Also excited to see SHOP involved as I predicted last winter in the Gateway thread. Now if only nucleus comes through soon that is going to be a very busy corner.

Online KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46650
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2016, 07:53:15 AM »
I would hope it gives us more than 20 years of use. To me, I consider this to be similar to a storefront renovation to keep the building looking fresh and to keep customers (shows and audiences) coming back.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline msa1092

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2016, 08:23:29 AM »
The design is nice, but at that price tag, the entire arena should be getting a new facade and not just one or two sides.

Offline PoshSteve

  • Great American Tower 665'
  • ***
  • Posts: 714
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2016, 06:32:01 PM »
^I am kinda disappointed that the Ontario side wont be getting a face lift. That is the most visible side after all. I hope they do a good job of blending the new side in with the old, otherwise that side may end up looking odd

Online KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46650
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2016, 06:45:57 PM »
Maybe the Huron side is intended to interface with nuCLEus? Or the Ferrari condo tower??  :-P
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline viscomi

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 239
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2016, 05:32:49 AM »
Would have been cool to include a redo of the parking garage. All the garages seem to be in pretty decent shape though so it would be hard to justify. I see what they are doing with the Little Caesars complex in Detroit and I'm jealous.

Offline X

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 9697
    • Western Reserve Meadery
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 08:31:28 AM »
^That's an idea!  The garages take up an area greater than the Nucleus project.  My guess is we'll have to wait a couple more decades for the garages to become functionally obsolete, but maybe by that time surface lots will be scarce and that land will be valuable enough to warrant all that demo and rebuilding.

Offline Motorist

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2016, 11:54:11 AM »
My roof is nearly 20 years old. I know I'm not a billion dollar business and all, but I wonder if the taxpayers might be interested in paying to replace that roof for me........
If your home is directly responsible for bringing in millions in tax revenue for the city then yes....

This was discussed (by one side) extensively during the Sin Tax renewal but subsidies for sports teams, arenas, billionaires, etc... are at best a wash financially for the community.

https://econjwatch.org/articles/do-economists-reach-a-conclusion-on-subsidies-for-sports-franchises-stadiums-and-mega-events

Offline inlovewithCLE

  • Rhodes Tower 629'
  • ***
  • Posts: 652
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2016, 02:07:28 PM »
First of all, I love the plans. Love, love, love it. It's needed to keep us current and relevant. But second of all, this whole debate over the arenas and sports teams and if they're a wash is just nonsense. First of all, the Quicken Loans Arena is home to more than just the 41 Cavs home games (and playoff games). It's more than the home of the Monsters and the Gladiators. It is THE place for major concerts by major acts and other events. No Q? No RNC. No Q? Major acts don't even SNIFF this city. And it matters. I can say personally that in my field I've had a business deal that was directly related to the fact that Lebron was in this city. IT MATTERS. Ask those downtown businesses if they would rather not have the Q or our 3 professional sports teams. Ask the city leaders if they would rather not have that brinks truck of money that gets dumped on the city when we have major events or nationally televised games. Sometimes some people in this city are so short sighted. If we tried to pay for the publicity we got from the Cavs and from the RNC we wouldn't have been able to afford it. The bottom line is: Do you want to be relevant or not? Are we a major city or not? It's real simple. Either we are a major city or we're not. And if we are, then act like it. People have more of an argument concerning the (stupidly) non-domed FirstEnergy "Factory of Sadness" Stadium because of how little it's used outside of Browns games, but the Q has 300 events every year. It is our Madison Square Garden. Do people want that to go away? I don't. I have no interest in being in a minor league city. Sorry, I don't. No offense but I'm not interested in being in Akron or Toledo. And part of the quality of life in this city and its attractiveness IS being able to go see the Cavs or the Indians or the (sigh) Browns and even things like Playhouse Square and the Cleveland Orchestra. Those are the things that help make you relevant as a real city.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 02:10:29 PM by inlovewithCLE »

Offline Motorist

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2016, 07:22:55 AM »
First of all, I love the plans. Love, love, love it. It's needed to keep us current and relevant. But second of all, this whole debate over the arenas and sports teams and if they're a wash is just nonsense. First of all, the Quicken Loans Arena is home to more than just the 41 Cavs home games (and playoff games). It's more than the home of the Monsters and the Gladiators. It is THE place for major concerts by major acts and other events. No Q? No RNC. No Q? Major acts don't even SNIFF this city. And it matters. I can say personally that in my field I've had a business deal that was directly related to the fact that Lebron was in this city. IT MATTERS. Ask those downtown businesses if they would rather not have the Q or our 3 professional sports teams. Ask the city leaders if they would rather not have that brinks truck of money that gets dumped on the city when we have major events or nationally televised games. Sometimes some people in this city are so short sighted. If we tried to pay for the publicity we got from the Cavs and from the RNC we wouldn't have been able to afford it. The bottom line is: Do you want to be relevant or not? Are we a major city or not? It's real simple. Either we are a major city or we're not. And if we are, then act like it. People have more of an argument concerning the (stupidly) non-domed FirstEnergy "Factory of Sadness" Stadium because of how little it's used outside of Browns games, but the Q has 300 events every year. It is our Madison Square Garden. Do people want that to go away? I don't. I have no interest in being in a minor league city. Sorry, I don't. No offense but I'm not interested in being in Akron or Toledo. And part of the quality of life in this city and its attractiveness IS being able to go see the Cavs or the Indians or the (sigh) Browns and even things like Playhouse Square and the Cleveland Orchestra. Those are the things that help make you relevant as a real city.

We can have an arena and we can have professional sports teams.  You can root for them or not root for them, you can love Cleveland and everything about it, you can love Cleveland and still be critical of it.  None of that changes the fact that the numbers on these subsidies just do not pencil out as an economic win.  And you can have a great, desirable city without huge professional sports giveaways.  Columbus doesn't have major league football, baseball, or basketball.  Portland only has a major league basketball team and people seem to love that city and be flocking to it.  I don't think Austin, Texas has any major league sports and it seems to be enjoying the same popularity and cool factor.  Maybe it's because they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to make their city better instead of lining the pockets of billionaires.   

 

Offline BelievelandD1

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2016, 07:38:58 AM »
First of all, I love the plans. Love, love, love it. It's needed to keep us current and relevant. But second of all, this whole debate over the arenas and sports teams and if they're a wash is just nonsense. First of all, the Quicken Loans Arena is home to more than just the 41 Cavs home games (and playoff games). It's more than the home of the Monsters and the Gladiators. It is THE place for major concerts by major acts and other events. No Q? No RNC. No Q? Major acts don't even SNIFF this city. And it matters. I can say personally that in my field I've had a business deal that was directly related to the fact that Lebron was in this city. IT MATTERS. Ask those downtown businesses if they would rather not have the Q or our 3 professional sports teams. Ask the city leaders if they would rather not have that brinks truck of money that gets dumped on the city when we have major events or nationally televised games. Sometimes some people in this city are so short sighted. If we tried to pay for the publicity we got from the Cavs and from the RNC we wouldn't have been able to afford it. The bottom line is: Do you want to be relevant or not? Are we a major city or not? It's real simple. Either we are a major city or we're not. And if we are, then act like it. People have more of an argument concerning the (stupidly) non-domed FirstEnergy "Factory of Sadness" Stadium because of how little it's used outside of Browns games, but the Q has 300 events every year. It is our Madison Square Garden. Do people want that to go away? I don't. I have no interest in being in a minor league city. Sorry, I don't. No offense but I'm not interested in being in Akron or Toledo. And part of the quality of life in this city and its attractiveness IS being able to go see the Cavs or the Indians or the (sigh) Browns and even things like Playhouse Square and the Cleveland Orchestra. Those are the things that help make you relevant as a real city.

We can have an arena and we can have professional sports teams.  You can root for them or not root for them, you can love Cleveland and everything about it, you can love Cleveland and still be critical of it.  None of that changes the fact that the numbers on these subsidies just do not pencil out as an economic win.  And you can have a great, desirable city without huge professional sports giveaways.  Columbus doesn't have major league football, baseball, or basketball.  Portland only has a major league basketball team and people seem to love that city and be flocking to it.  I don't think Austin, Texas has any major league sports and it seems to be enjoying the same popularity and cool factor.  Maybe it's because they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to make their city better instead of lining the pockets of billionaires.   

 

Columbus and Austin are college towns.  Portland has an extremely high quality of life.  The culture out there is different.  People dont care if they have sports teams, and frankly their urban cores are so dense, they dont need them to sustain businesses, etc.  Unfortunately, Cleveland has its population that loves Cleveland (me included)...but we dont tout alot to the outsider.  Bad weather, slow job growth, etc.  You have to spend money to make money. If you stripped our sports teams, you have to get the people of NE Ohio to change the way they think if they are going to view a city like Northern Oregon people do.  People in Oregon live there because of the lush green space, access to the Pacific, mild climate, etc.  It would take decades to change that paradigm here, and sadly if we lost our sports teams, i think we may lose people as well.  Not saying it cannot rebound in the distant future, but based off of our leadership the past 5 decades, not confident in them to turn it around in the next 5.  To be honest, the reason for Clevelands hot run here has been because of its people...not its leaders. 

Richey Piipernan's quotes in Lee Jenkins Sports Illustrated article about Lebron is very interesting.  Cleveland's boomerang rate increased to well over the national average since Lebron has returned.  His return was  symbolic of what i think alot of native youth wanted to do, but needed a nudge from a superstar so they can say "hey, its cool to return to Cleveland".  And without the Cavs, you dont have Lebron.  And damn straight the Cavs are going to use the phrase "guaranteed to stay through 2034".  they have a ton of leverage, why not use it.  The Browns left and while i frankly do not care if we have a football team or not (we dont anyway), our region had a meltdown.

This investment is OK because of the amount of lives the events at the Q touch.  The RNC, the concerts, the Finals.  Thats hotel money, thats meal money, thats uber money, thats rental car money, RTA money.  You can argue First Energy Stadium all day, but this arena is critical to our downtown sustainability.  We are not Portland or Austin.  Columbus downtown frankly is in the same boat. not sure thats a good comparison

Offline willyboy

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2999
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2016, 07:48:59 AM »
"To be honest, the reason for Clevelands hot run here has been because of its people...not its leaders." 

BelievelandD1, no truer words have ever been spoken here!

Online KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46650
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2016, 07:49:09 AM »
Portland was a blue-collar saw mill town until the 1970s. Cities and cultures change over time, causing a change in how we use our public dollars to shape the city we want. We can use it to create infrastructure that supports a dense urban center or we can use it for other things, including subsidizing professional sports.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline inlovewithCLE

  • Rhodes Tower 629'
  • ***
  • Posts: 652
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2016, 09:28:47 AM »


Columbus and Austin are college towns.  Portland has an extremely high quality of life.  The culture out there is different.  People dont care if they have sports teams, and frankly their urban cores are so dense, they dont need them to sustain businesses, etc.  Unfortunately, Cleveland has its population that loves Cleveland (me included)...but we dont tout alot to the outsider.  Bad weather, slow job growth, etc.  You have to spend money to make money. If you stripped our sports teams, you have to get the people of NE Ohio to change the way they think if they are going to view a city like Northern Oregon people do.  People in Oregon live there because of the lush green space, access to the Pacific, mild climate, etc.  It would take decades to change that paradigm here, and sadly if we lost our sports teams, i think we may lose people as well.  Not saying it cannot rebound in the distant future, but based off of our leadership the past 5 decades, not confident in them to turn it around in the next 5.  To be honest, the reason for Clevelands hot run here has been because of its people...not its leaders. 

Richey Piipernan's quotes in Lee Jenkins Sports Illustrated article about Lebron is very interesting.  Cleveland's boomerang rate increased to well over the national average since Lebron has returned.  His return was  symbolic of what i think alot of native youth wanted to do, but needed a nudge from a superstar so they can say "hey, its cool to return to Cleveland".  And without the Cavs, you dont have Lebron.  And damn straight the Cavs are going to use the phrase "guaranteed to stay through 2034".  they have a ton of leverage, why not use it.  The Browns left and while i frankly do not care if we have a football team or not (we dont anyway), our region had a meltdown.

This investment is OK because of the amount of lives the events at the Q touch.  The RNC, the concerts, the Finals.  Thats hotel money, thats meal money, thats uber money, thats rental car money, RTA money.  You can argue First Energy Stadium all day, but this arena is critical to our downtown sustainability.  We are not Portland or Austin.  Columbus downtown frankly is in the same boat. not sure thats a good comparison

EXACTLY! Thank you! Without our amenities, Cleveland doesn't become Portland. It becomes Akron. And no offense to any Akronites but I don't want to be Akron. I want to be in a major city that looks and acts like a major city and has major city stuff. Sports (and the arts) are the things that make a major city major. And you're absolutely right that we would lose people without our sports teams, particularly people who either work FOR those teams or the people who have ancillary work because of the existence of those teams. Without our teams, you would lose at least: both ESPN Cleveland and The Fan and most of its employees, at least half of the restaurants around both arenas who basically survive off of sports and event traffic and couldn't sustain itself otherwise, and you would lose relevance because the sports teams (particularly when they are good) get you on the national spotlight. Hell, even the Browns are guaranteed at least one national game a year as long as TNF exists. Getting the national spotlight matters, especially for a city like ours which isn't in the best climate, isn't a college town, and isn't in a state flush with oil money and two other major markets. Cleveland is the biggest media market in the state and the 18th largest media market in the country. Austin is 45th. Columbus is 32. There's only 4 cities in the top 20 that don't have all 3 of the "big 3" sports teams. We're a major market. We SHOULD have more teams than the 32nd or 45th largest media markets

Offline 327

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6730
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2016, 10:56:28 AM »
I'm torn on this one.  On principle I think it's money wasted on misplaced priorities.  But in practical terms, it's probably not a bad move.  And unlike the Public Square debacle, at least this investment doesn't entail destroying services.

Offline TBideon

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3340
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2016, 11:18:11 AM »
^^I like your passion but disagree a great deal. Not only have economists routinely asserted that cities lose much more than they gain with these tax subsidized stadiums and awful deals (for example, Cleveland owns the Browns stadium but can barely use it off-season for events due to its nonsensical leasing agreement), but I don't see people moving here, or anywhere, due to sports. They move to places due to jobs, families, and possibly weather. Did people really boomerang to Cleveland due to Lebron? There are always outliers, but do you really think his decision had any real impact on the majority of new residents (or people who reconsidered moving)?

I don't think sports really correlate with major cities any more. Look at Vegas, Austin, Albuquerque, Omaha...the list goes on and on. Meanwhile Detroit, Baltimore, Buffalo, and other dramatically struggling cities have multiple teams. So what. Maybe sports provide a necessary distraction in those depressed areas, but it's a minor footnote at the end of the fiscal year.

Sure it's nice to have sports, at least when your team is winning, but when you break down the costs and who's paying for these stadiums - mostly lower income people who themselves can't afford to watch the very teams their money is supporting - there is something terribly wrong with the system. And as for the argument that restaurants make bank, well, you can't really run an economy on a few dozen restaurants at the end of the day. And when your team is 0 and 13 and no one is showing up except the tax collector, then you really don't see restaurants generating any kind of revenue anyhow.

If I could, I would flush that godforsaken Browns stadium and its despicable owner (you too, DEE), since its endless negative publicity and morale has taken an enormous toll on fans and those associated with Cleveland. In hindsight the city would have been far better without the team, as that property could have been used for something special that could generate direct revenue. Instead, the city spent almost $300 million for that piece of s-hit with an additional $30 million in "renovations" for the next 15 years. It's a colossal waste of resources and other people's money, certainly not Haslem's -- and with the the Q, certainly not Gilbert's. Corporate welfare at its most obvious.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 11:25:19 AM by TBideon »

Online jmicha

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3885
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2016, 11:24:53 AM »
Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

Online Cleburger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4079
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2016, 11:31:53 AM »
Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

Gilbert is also making other investments in the city--not just the Cavs and the arena.    I wish Haslem would move a few hundred Pilot employees to downtown Cleveland....

Offline TBideon

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3340
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2016, 11:32:52 AM »
The Gateway Project in its inception promised 30,000 new jobs - nope. The budget went up to $400 million. No accountability.

Then there's this nonsense from last month: "The Cavs want $70 million more in public money to renovate the Q"

http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2016/11/the-cavs-want-70-million-more-in-public-money-to-renovate-the-q/

Meanwhile the potholes in streets get bigger and bigger but just try to get funds allocated for repairs.

It's a fundamentally broken system that should be challenged and criticized at every opportunity, and every dime Gilbert doesn't put into his building is ten cents that people in Central and Slavic Village do.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 11:34:54 AM by TBideon »

Offline Motorist

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2016, 12:32:09 PM »
Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

The number being thrown out there is $140 million.  That's the principal on the bond.  After the interest, it's going to be somewhere around $280 million.  And as for Gilbert's "half", he's not writing a check to the county for $70 million.  From what I understand, his $70 million is the expected rent between now and 2034.  So they are not paying anything above and beyond what they would pay anyway to have games in the arena. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 12:33:59 PM by Motorist »

Offline Motorist

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2016, 12:38:43 PM »
Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

Gilbert is also making other investments in the city--not just the Cavs and the arena.    I wish Haslem would move a few hundred Pilot employees to downtown Cleveland....
If Gilbert is doing this for the love of Cleveland, why are we worried about him moving the team?  Could it be that he's doing all of this to make as much money as he can?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 12:39:20 PM by Motorist »

Online KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46650
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2016, 01:18:30 PM »
When you think about your favorite cities around the world and which ones you would want to move to, how many include professional sports as part of the draw?

Answer here:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,27682.msg831710.html#msg831710
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Online Cleburger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4079
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2016, 03:35:20 PM »
Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

Gilbert is also making other investments in the city--not just the Cavs and the arena.    I wish Haslem would move a few hundred Pilot employees to downtown Cleveland....
If Gilbert is doing this for the love of Cleveland, why are we worried about him moving the team?  Could it be that he's doing all of this to make as much money as he can?

I never said he's doing it for the love of Cleveland.    Money and championships are his number one motivators, like any owner.   But Gilbert brings a socially conscious side to him, unlike most owners.   He purposely moved Quicken Loans jobs here.  He's invested in the Casino and other projects.  And in Detroit he has a profound impact on his hometown.   I wish they were all doing this kind of work.

Offline CleveFan

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2016, 11:24:34 PM »
TOTALLY agree with "InlovewithCLE"'s comments about the investment in the city necessary to keep it relevant.  The amount of people who visit the city, who spend money in the city's hotels, bars and restaurants after sports (and other entertainment) events at the Q make this upgrade very easy to justify.    Cities without sports teams that are thriving are largely in warm weather areas, such as Vegas and Austin - not in the northeast or midwest -  and by the way, Vegas is on the verge of adding big league sports anyway.  I also have to shake my head at the tired old argument about not having money to fix potholes so we have to be outraged at this kind of civic investment.  You think NYC doesn't have potholes?  It's the art, culture, entertainment and sports that are a significant reason that Cleveland is a special place - and absolutely yes, a reason to live in Cleveland or move to it.   And no disrespect to Akron or even Columbus - but they are not major league cities - and Cleveland is.  In order to stay big league, investment in the cities most important sports facility is a total and complete no-brainer.   When our city invests in itself - great things happen.  The whole RNC process showed us clearly what could happen when we upgraded the city's convention facilities, public square, airport, etc....To me, this is the same kind of forward thinking for the 21st century that simply is necessary. I hope the discussion going forward focuses on design suggestions - not on whether or not this is a good idea.  And if Nucleus happens - this will be an impressive and dynamic neighborhood in downtown for many many years to come. 

Offline Whipjacka

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2016, 01:48:41 AM »
as someone mentioned upthread, the Q is the most justifiable of the three sports venues to spend public money on.  It hosts hundreds of events per year and is much more versatile than a single sport building.  Additionally, Gilbert has already spent a lot of his own money keeping the arena competitive. 
You could argue this belongs more in the debate of whether or not public dollars should be spent building convention centers than whether cleveland should pay for the browns to have a nicer facility. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 01:49:41 AM by Whipjacka »

Online Enginerd

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 281
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2016, 07:08:53 AM »
The only thing that irks me out of all of this is that The Dolans decided to renovate Progressive Field completely on their own dime...that should be the precedent that's set now. Everyone seems to overlook that.

I realize The Q hosts probably 75% non-basketball games...but it's not like Dan/The Cas aren't making any money off of those either. I wonder if the County negotiated at all? 50/50 usually sounds like a fair split, but in this case it's not.

Offline inlovewithCLE

  • Rhodes Tower 629'
  • ***
  • Posts: 652
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2016, 07:42:12 AM »
TOTALLY agree with "InlovewithCLE"'s comments about the investment in the city necessary to keep it relevant.  The amount of people who visit the city, who spend money in the city's hotels, bars and restaurants after sports (and other entertainment) events at the Q make this upgrade very easy to justify.    Cities without sports teams that are thriving are largely in warm weather areas, such as Vegas and Austin - not in the northeast or midwest -  and by the way, Vegas is on the verge of adding big league sports anyway.  I also have to shake my head at the tired old argument about not having money to fix potholes so we have to be outraged at this kind of civic investment.  You think NYC doesn't have potholes?  It's the art, culture, entertainment and sports that are a significant reason that Cleveland is a special place - and absolutely yes, a reason to live in Cleveland or move to it.   And no disrespect to Akron or even Columbus - but they are not major league cities - and Cleveland is.  In order to stay big league, investment in the cities most important sports facility is a total and complete no-brainer.   When our city invests in itself - great things happen.  The whole RNC process showed us clearly what could happen when we upgraded the city's convention facilities, public square, airport, etc....To me, this is the same kind of forward thinking for the 21st century that simply is necessary. I hope the discussion going forward focuses on design suggestions - not on whether or not this is a good idea.  And if Nucleus happens - this will be an impressive and dynamic neighborhood in downtown for many many years to come.

Preach, preach, preach! Lol. And people bring up Vegas, well guess what? Vegas WANTS sports teams. i wonder why, maybe because they see that it's worth it to have? They are going to have at least 2 of the big 4 and don't be surprised if they end up with 3 or all 4 of the big 4 by the mid-2020s. And people keep comparing us to markets that are smaller than us. If that's how they view the city in their mind, that's their business. But last I checked (which was yesterday lol) we are still a major market. And it matters. But by all means, let's strip away our sports teams, our arts facilities, and anything that we've used public dollars to pay for and just fill potholes. 😂

Now I will say that Browns stadium people have an argument for. We should've demanded a dome. Still not too late. But funny thing happened when the Browns left town: it made the city look bad on the national stage. When you are in a locale that has a bad reputation and not viewed as the hipster paradise mega city that we should all bow down to, you need to be doing things to get more attention to yourself on a national stage in a way that you can control the narrative. The Cavs had a lot to do with making the perception of Cleveland cool among people who aren't on forums like this. Lebron's first run here basically created the demand for East 4th Street and most of us know that. I work in the entertainment industry here and i can tell you, I would not still be here if we weren't a major market with major market stuff. It makes it hard to retain talent and it's a harder sell if there's NOTHING HERE. Where am I supposed to take a client to for a night out in the city, Starbucks? 😂 And we STILL don't have enough to do. I can't tell you how many times I've been with celebrities here (local or national) that was looking for clubs or somewhere to go and party and it was either closed or it was dead because it wasn't a game night. We are still an events driven market. I've done parties here too and unless it's specialized with your own built in audience like we have, it's extremely difficult to get people in Cleveland to come out just for the hell out it, especially outside of the summer months. So in the fall and winter months, a lot of our downtown establishments LIVE on sports, concerts and other event traffic. I know that for a fact. That's how they survive. And a lot of people here would be perfectly fine with losing all of that. Sure, let the facilities get dilapidated and let the Q stop getting major concerts and events, then we can create the hipster paradise that people seem to want. And I guess this is just a fundamental disagreement and difference in philosophy that I have with many of you here. Many of you want to be Portland. I want to be a micro New York. That's WHY I support the sports teams having competitive facilities, that's WHY i support public funding of Cleveland arts, that's WHY I like big and flashy and attention grabbing stuff in the city, that's why I support the movies filming here, that's why I support all of that. We are a major market and I want us to behave like it. Some of you are content with acting like we're in the bottom 20 instead of the top 20. Your preogrative I guess

Offline Mov2Ohio

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2016, 11:07:58 AM »
^This!

Offline simplythis

  • Rhodes Tower 629'
  • ***
  • Posts: 574
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2016, 12:52:00 PM »
TOTALLY agree with "InlovewithCLE"'s comments about the investment in the city necessary to keep it relevant.  The amount of people who visit the city, who spend money in the city's hotels, bars and restaurants after sports (and other entertainment) events at the Q make this upgrade very easy to justify.    Cities without sports teams that are thriving are largely in warm weather areas, such as Vegas and Austin - not in the northeast or midwest -  and by the way, Vegas is on the verge of adding big league sports anyway.  I also have to shake my head at the tired old argument about not having money to fix potholes so we have to be outraged at this kind of civic investment.  You think NYC doesn't have potholes?  It's the art, culture, entertainment and sports that are a significant reason that Cleveland is a special place - and absolutely yes, a reason to live in Cleveland or move to it.   And no disrespect to Akron or even Columbus - but they are not major league cities - and Cleveland is.  In order to stay big league, investment in the cities most important sports facility is a total and complete no-brainer.   When our city invests in itself - great things happen.  The whole RNC process showed us clearly what could happen when we upgraded the city's convention facilities, public square, airport, etc....To me, this is the same kind of forward thinking for the 21st century that simply is necessary. I hope the discussion going forward focuses on design suggestions - not on whether or not this is a good idea.  And if Nucleus happens - this will be an impressive and dynamic neighborhood in downtown for many many years to come.

Preach, preach, preach! Lol. And people bring up Vegas, well guess what? Vegas WANTS sports teams. i wonder why, maybe because they see that it's worth it to have? They are going to have at least 2 of the big 4 and don't be surprised if they end up with 3 or all 4 of the big 4 by the mid-2020s. And people keep comparing us to markets that are smaller than us. If that's how they view the city in their mind, that's their business. But last I checked (which was yesterday lol) we are still a major market. And it matters. But by all means, let's strip away our sports teams, our arts facilities, and anything that we've used public dollars to pay for and just fill potholes. 😂

Now I will say that Browns stadium people have an argument for. We should've demanded a dome. Still not too late. But funny thing happened when the Browns left town: it made the city look bad on the national stage. When you are in a locale that has a bad reputation and not viewed as the hipster paradise mega city that we should all bow down to, you need to be doing things to get more attention to yourself on a national stage in a way that you can control the narrative. The Cavs had a lot to do with making the perception of Cleveland cool among people who aren't on forums like this. Lebron's first run here basically created the demand for East 4th Street and most of us know that. I work in the entertainment industry here and i can tell you, I would not still be here if we weren't a major market with major market stuff. It makes it hard to retain talent and it's a harder sell if there's NOTHING HERE. Where am I supposed to take a client to for a night out in the city, Starbucks? 😂 And we STILL don't have enough to do. I can't tell you how many times I've been with celebrities here (local or national) that was looking for clubs or somewhere to go and party and it was either closed or it was dead because it wasn't a game night. We are still an events driven market. I've done parties here too and unless it's specialized with your own built in audience like we have, it's extremely difficult to get people in Cleveland to come out just for the hell out it, especially outside of the summer months. So in the fall and winter months, a lot of our downtown establishments LIVE on sports, concerts and other event traffic. I know that for a fact. That's how they survive. And a lot of people here would be perfectly fine with losing all of that. Sure, let the facilities get dilapidated and let the Q stop getting major concerts and events, then we can create the hipster paradise that people seem to want. And I guess this is just a fundamental disagreement and difference in philosophy that I have with many of you here. Many of you want to be Portland. I want to be a micro New York. That's WHY I support the sports teams having competitive facilities, that's WHY i support public funding of Cleveland arts, that's WHY I like big and flashy and attention grabbing stuff in the city, that's why I support the movies filming here, that's why I support all of that. We are a major market and I want us to behave like it. Some of you are content with acting like we're in the bottom 20 instead of the top 20. Your preogrative I guess

I agree with inlovewithcle.   Does anybody rememember Cleveland's downtown when the Cavs played in the Richfield Coliseum? How hopping was it at that time.

Offline TBideon

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3340
Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2016, 03:03:12 PM »
I remember there being a hell of a lot more daytime workers and companies of all sizes, with the Flats being a once in a lifetime party scene that few cities have ever witnessed, not to mention the orchestra, ballet, and theater district thriving. And that was without Gateway and the Browns stadium. Somehow the city managed.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 03:04:44 PM by TBideon »