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Author Topic: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena  (Read 8444 times)

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Offline down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2017, 07:50:36 AM »
I think passing the ordinance with 12 votes prevents a referendum.   I think that's why the needed 12 rather than a simple majority.

Offline Motorist

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #91 on: April 26, 2017, 07:55:34 AM »
They made the right decision. This is critically important for keeping us competitive and increasing the amount of non Cavs events in the Q. People would've had more of an argument if this was Browns stadium, which is for the most part only used during Browns season. But the Q is a general benefit to the city and the region as a whole. Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo. Our relevance as a city is very important and this contributes to it. Good job, city council
"Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo."  What is that supposed to mean? Toledo has concert and event venues. So Toledo and Cleveland were the same place until Gund Arena opened? I hope I don't sound too offended but Clevelanders should know using another city with a negative connotation is problematic and I can't not mention it. If I said "Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Columbus and being Cleveland" wouldn't you be a little annoyed?

Also, it seems a little silly to call a basketball arena "Infrastructure".  I'm guessing that was part of the PR push to make this additional bit of corporate welfare seem critical.  Meanwhile the actual infrastructure of the city is crumbling around us. 

Offline yanni_gogolak

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #92 on: April 26, 2017, 08:05:08 AM »
I think passing the ordinance with 12 votes prevents a referendum.   I think that's why the needed 12 rather than a simple majority.

Correct, the 12 gets it to "emergency" which is political speak for "we don't need to hear from the people to know this is right".
Council's vote approved the ordinance 12-5, meaning that it passed with emergency status. It takes effect immediately.

I would say a majority of the time the "emergency" is enacted in appropriate situations.

That's pretty much what I told my wife, too.
Is this group just trying to collect the signatures for a City-wide referendum, or would this be county-wide?

The bed tax is County wide. I'm not sure how that works.

They made the right decision. This is critically important for keeping us competitive and increasing the amount of non Cavs events in the Q. People would've had more of an argument if this was Browns stadium, which is for the most part only used during Browns season. But the Q is a general benefit to the city and the region as a whole. Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo. Our relevance as a city is very important and this contributes to it. Good job, city council
"Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo."  What is that supposed to mean? Toledo has concert and event venues. So Toledo and Cleveland were the same place until Gund Arena opened? I hope I don't sound too offended but Clevelanders should know using another city with a negative connotation is problematic and I can't not mention it. If I said "Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Columbus and being Cleveland" wouldn't you be a little annoyed?

Also, it seems a little silly to call a basketball arena "Infrastructure".  I'm guessing that was part of the PR push to make this additional bit of corporate welfare seem critical.  Meanwhile the actual infrastructure of the city is crumbling around us. 

in·fra·struc·ture
ˈinfrəˌstrək(t)SHər/
noun
noun: infrastructure; plural noun: infrastructures

    the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g., buildings, roads, and power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:18:27 AM by yanni_gogolak »

Offline Motorist

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2017, 08:47:55 AM »
I think passing the ordinance with 12 votes prevents a referendum.   I think that's why the needed 12 rather than a simple majority.

Correct, the 12 gets it to "emergency" which is political speak for "we don't need to hear from the people to know this is right".
Council's vote approved the ordinance 12-5, meaning that it passed with emergency status. It takes effect immediately.

I would say a majority of the time the "emergency" is enacted in appropriate situations.

That's pretty much what I told my wife, too.
Is this group just trying to collect the signatures for a City-wide referendum, or would this be county-wide?

The bed tax is County wide. I'm not sure how that works.

They made the right decision. This is critically important for keeping us competitive and increasing the amount of non Cavs events in the Q. People would've had more of an argument if this was Browns stadium, which is for the most part only used during Browns season. But the Q is a general benefit to the city and the region as a whole. Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo. Our relevance as a city is very important and this contributes to it. Good job, city council
"Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo."  What is that supposed to mean? Toledo has concert and event venues. So Toledo and Cleveland were the same place until Gund Arena opened? I hope I don't sound too offended but Clevelanders should know using another city with a negative connotation is problematic and I can't not mention it. If I said "Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Columbus and being Cleveland" wouldn't you be a little annoyed?

Also, it seems a little silly to call a basketball arena "Infrastructure".  I'm guessing that was part of the PR push to make this additional bit of corporate welfare seem critical.  Meanwhile the actual infrastructure of the city is crumbling around us. 

in·fra·struc·ture
ˈinfrəˌstrək(t)SHər/
noun
noun: infrastructure; plural noun: infrastructures

    the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g., buildings, roads, and power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise.

That's like saying my flat screen TV is needed for the operation of my home.  Nice google though. 

Offline down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2017, 08:49:56 AM »
The word infrastructure came into use and replaced the less sexy public works.  I guess i could see an argument to the arena being a part of public works just like the West Side Market and Rec Centers.  The city could continue to operate without them but they are part of public works. 

Offline yanni_gogolak

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2017, 09:38:13 AM »
in·fra·struc·ture
ˈinfrəˌstrək(t)SHər/
noun
noun: infrastructure; plural noun: infrastructures

    the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g., buildings, roads, and power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise.

That's like saying my flat screen TV is needed for the operation of my home.  Nice google though. 

Not quite, homes are a necessity for society, what is housed in them is not. Buildings are part of our built environment and just as necessary as roads and bridges.

Online Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2017, 10:54:02 AM »
They made the right decision. This is critically important for keeping us competitive and increasing the amount of non Cavs events in the Q. People would've had more of an argument if this was Browns stadium, which is for the most part only used during Browns season. But the Q is a general benefit to the city and the region as a whole. Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo. Our relevance as a city is very important and this contributes to it. Good job, city council

"Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo."  What is that supposed to mean? Toledo has concert and event venues. So Toledo and Cleveland were the same place until Gund Arena opened? I hope I don't sound too offended but Clevelanders should know using another city with a negative connotation is problematic and I can't not mention it. If I said "Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Columbus and being Cleveland" wouldn't you be a little annoyed?

I read it as having a major venue that can host major league teams, with no offense intended.    Toledo's arena is nice, and relatively new, but could never host a top-tier NBA or NHL franchise.   

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2017, 06:51:22 PM »
They made the right decision. This is critically important for keeping us competitive and increasing the amount of non Cavs events in the Q. People would've had more of an argument if this was Browns stadium, which is for the most part only used during Browns season. But the Q is a general benefit to the city and the region as a whole. Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo. Our relevance as a city is very important and this contributes to it. Good job, city council

"Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Cleveland and being Toledo."  What is that supposed to mean? Toledo has concert and event venues. So Toledo and Cleveland were the same place until Gund Arena opened? I hope I don't sound too offended but Clevelanders should know using another city with a negative connotation is problematic and I can't not mention it. If I said "Infrastructure like this is the difference between being Columbus and being Cleveland" wouldn't you be a little annoyed?

I read it as having a major venue that can host major league teams, with no offense intended.    Toledo's arena is nice, and relatively new, but could never host a top-tier NBA or NHL franchise.

Correct

Offline simplythis

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2017, 06:30:44 PM »
Just heard on Channel 8 news that the Cavaliers received an Ultimatum that if
construction does not get started bt September 15 that 2020 or 2021 All-Star
game in Cleveland will be cancelled.


Offline TBideon

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2017, 09:40:41 AM »
The NFL gave Cleveland an ultimatum as well, and we got one of the worst one-sided deals in the history of all sports with that stadium and its funding.

The NBA can go to hell with that ultimatum nonsense; the stadium is FINE as is and does not cosmetic changes. If that means no All-Star game, then fine; I'm sure the restaurants and hotels nearby will somehow survive.

If Gilbert wants renovations, then he can use his Casino Phase 2 money for that it. It certainly isn't going to what was promised repeatedly.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 09:46:39 AM by TBideon »

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2017, 09:58:13 AM »
The NFL gave Cleveland an ultimatum as well, and we got one of the worst one-sided deals in the history of all sports with that stadium and its funding.

The NBA can go to hell with that ultimatum nonsense; the stadium is FINE as is and does not cosmetic changes. If that means no All-Star game, then fine; I'm sure the restaurants and hotels nearby will somehow survive.

If Gilbert wants renovations, then he can use his Casino Phase 2 money for that it. It certainly isn't going to what was promised repeatedly.

Why do people keep saying this nonsense? "The stadium is fine as is." No the hell it isn't. It is the oldest arena in the NBA and the only one not currently slated for renovation or rebuilding. It is stuff like this that DRIVES ME NUTS. I've mentioned here before that I work in the entertainment industry in town, and I know for a fact that the current state of the arena has prevented us from getting certain events, concerts and things in the past. And the more this arena continues to age without any upgrades to it, the further behind our market goes. This has a direct impact on our ability to draw outside events. Quicken Loans Arena already gets fewer non-NBA events than most comparable arenas (particularly because we don't have an NHL team either) so we need these upgrades to keep up with the rest of the country and stay competitive. But by all means, let's hurt the city's competitiveness to stick it to the man.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2017, 10:45:55 AM »
Briefing in connection with the mandamus action in the Supreme Court is complete.  I imagine there could be a ruling as early as next week.  If they find in favor of the city clerk I imagine work could start before September.  Really don't know what happens if the realtors win and the petitions have to be accepted for a possible vote in November, although I imagine work will not start if this happens unless somebody really gets creative.

Online YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2017, 10:53:23 AM »
Briefing in connection with the mandamus action in the Supreme Court is complete.  I imagine there could be a ruling as early as next week.  If they find in favor of the city clerk I imagine work could start before September.  Really don't know what happens if the realtors win and the petitions have to be accepted for a possible vote in November, although I imagine work will not start if this happens unless somebody really gets creative.

I'm normally not "just shut up and fall in line" guy, but business owners will be FURIOUS if these people cost the city an all star weekend

Online surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2017, 12:51:53 PM »
Why do people keep saying this nonsense? "The stadium is fine as is." No the hell it isn't. It is the oldest arena in the NBA and the only one not currently slated for renovation or rebuilding. It is stuff like this that DRIVES ME NUTS. I've mentioned here before that I work in the entertainment industry in town, and I know for a fact that the current state of the arena has prevented us from getting certain events, concerts and things in the past.

And it also drives people nuts when billionaires keep asking for public money. If CLE didn't have the worst city services and worst schools then things would be different.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2017, 01:27:15 PM »
^Yet cities across the country keep giving their sports billionaires public money despite the fact that their city services and schools are just as bad or worse.  Until that stops we have to play the game or we are left behind (and still with bad schools).  Any realistic ideas to stop this nationwide?

Offline old edale

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2017, 02:59:20 PM »
Actually, it seems like most cities have had enough with the whole public support for sports facilities. St. Louis and San Diego both lost their NFL teams because the cities wouldn't partially fund new stadiums. LA told the NFL they'd love to have them, but public money for the stadium was off the table.

Having gone to a game at the Q last year, I think it's a pretty nice facility. Perhaps some minor interior upgrades would be nice, but it didn't seem like a horribly out of date arena. The RNC seemed to think it was acceptable, by all accounts. If the NBA is going to have a power trip and threaten to pull the All Star Game, I say let them. It's one weekend, and it probably won't even be that exciting. Cincinnati got all amped for the MLB ASG a couple years ago, and it was a pretty tame and underwhelming weekend in the city. Don't make huge financial decisions over one (albeit somewhat sexy) weekend event.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2017, 04:30:14 PM »
^I have to disagree with your characterization of "most cities".  Off the top of my head recent public assisted projects:  Milwaukee Bucks arena, Atlanta Braves stadium, Texas Rangers stadium.  It is just crazy what Nevada is offering the Raiders so a 1.5 billion stadium can be built.  And by the way, St. Louis did not thumb their noses at the Rams.  They offered more than 400 mil. in public subsidies, it just was not enough.

This is not right but it happens regularly and the trend continues. 

Online YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2017, 04:57:10 PM »
Look, Dan Gilbert is now a multi-billionaire and I get that he shouldn't need help...

But our personal grievances with the sourcing of finance - particularly the absence of private funds - ends up hurting those that need it most. Okay, so we go on a moral crusade to ensure that Dan Gilbert doesn't take tax payer money that could be spent elsewhere. I completely get that and, to an extent, I support it.

But a war on the 1% often has the bottom 10% on the front lines. It's über drivers, hotel workers, local venders, waitresses, stage hands, private security, and the like who will pay for this if the financing doesn't pass. Thereby leaving us void of a sizeable tax amount to the county.

Were we morally just in our fight? Sure. But I assure, Dan Gilbert will be fine with or without the renovations; I'm not sure I can say the same for local business.

Offline old edale

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2017, 05:09:37 PM »
Well the tide is at least shifting. St. Louis voters did turn down a tax increase to fund a new soccer stadium. Have the Cavs threatened to leave? I can't imagine that happening, nor the NBA wanting that to happen. The Cavs have been the lone bright spot in the East for a while, and I can't think of another market in the eastern US that would be a good candidate for a team. Seattle definitely deserves a team, and I wish the Clippers would move there, but where would the Cavs move?

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2017, 05:38:04 PM »
^I cannot recall hearing or reading any threats to move by the Cavs ownership in connection with the renovations...from day one their pitch has been that the renovations are needed so that the arena can stay competitive with its peers, and to attract other events which might skip over Cleveland.  The Cavs are splitting the 140 mil cost 50/50 with the city so they are invested to some extent.

Offline down4cle

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2017, 05:41:06 PM »
It's my understanding that the city's portion of this is coming from admissions taxes from the arena itself.   

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2017, 09:00:42 PM »
Look, Dan Gilbert is now a multi-billionaire and I get that he shouldn't need help...

But our personal grievances with the sourcing of finance - particularly the absence of private funds - ends up hurting those that need it most. Okay, so we go on a moral crusade to ensure that Dan Gilbert doesn't take tax payer money that could be spent elsewhere. I completely get that and, to an extent, I support it.

But a war on the 1% often has the bottom 10% on the front lines. It's über drivers, hotel workers, local venders, waitresses, stage hands, private security, and the like who will pay for this if the financing doesn't pass. Thereby leaving us void of a sizeable tax amount to the county.

Were we morally just in our fight? Sure. But I assure, Dan Gilbert will be fine with or without the renovations; I'm not sure I can say the same for local business.

A voice of sanity

Online YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2017, 09:05:10 PM »
^i just think people get so caught up in carrying over the (well founded) fight against the 1% that they end up losing sight of who has the most to lose.

Online Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2017, 04:45:51 PM »
It's my understanding that the city's portion of this is coming from admissions taxes from the arena itself.   

This is my understanding as well. So all these neighborhood groups and people on this very forum claiming it's coming from school taxes or the general funds and should be spent in neighborhoods are coming at this the wrong way.   I also understand that Dan Gilbert has laid out a pretty hefty financial package supporting this as well, including upgrades to many community centers in the city as a bone to the councilpeople.

Jerry Jones famously went to the city of Dallas with a plan to build the now AT&T stadium.  Dallas big-city politicians refused the hotel bed tax to pay for it, so he worked a deal to build it in Arlington.  It is now built, hosts every major event known to man, and the city of Arlington is expected to pay it off 10 years ahead of schedule in 2024.   

I wish we didn't live in a country where tax dollars go to pay for these things, but unfortunately we do.  If Cleveland wants to maintain it's place in tour routing, major national events, political conventions, etc, we need to figure out a way to stay competitive.   If this means extra taxes on the users of the arena, hotel users, etc, then so be it.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2017, 08:22:23 PM »
Why were the Indians able to pay for renovations to their facility, but not Dan Gilbert?

Yes, the admissions tax would be redirected to offset what would be owed by the city, and assuming the Cavs make the playoffs each year, that tax would cover what is owed.

However, two points:
1. That admissions tax (the same tax City Hall turned the screws on places like Beachland Ballroom for) would otherwise go to the general fund.
2. What are the odds the Cavs will go to the playoffs without LeBron?

Online Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #116 on: July 24, 2017, 08:13:32 AM »
Why were the Indians able to pay for renovations to their facility, but not Dan Gilbert?

The Progressive field renovations were far less extensive, no?  They basically took some seats out, put in "temporary" platforms in their place, and renovated some concession spaces (which the concessions company contributed to).


1. That admissions tax (the same tax City Hall turned the screws on places like Beachland Ballroom for) would otherwise go to the general fund.
2. What are the odds the Cavs will go to the playoffs without LeBron?

The admissions tax may go to the general fund, but if the arena becomes outdated, and used less, those revenues will eventually dry up.   So it's a catch 22 in some ways.  I'd rather have the tax pay for the renovations, and keep the rest of the economy around the Q working as many days of the year as we can get.   

Offline CleveFan

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2017, 11:15:31 PM »
It's amazing to me how little vision people can have sometimes.   Someone said that he couldn't imagine the Cavs leaving town and "where would they go?"  Really?  I can think of quite a few major towns that would love an NBA franchise...And remember, what seems unlikely can easily happen - It wasn't that long ago that we couldn't imagine the Cleveland Browns leaving. As great as the last few years with the Cavs have been with Cleveland on a world stage night after night, remember that the Cavs are just a part of the big picture - the Q frequently hosts world class concerts and special events - but that's been to a building that is rapidly aging when compared to similar buildings in competing cities. Underscore the word "competing".  It comes down to whether Cleveland wants to remain a major league market.   This city has been big league for many decades because great Clevelanders  had the vision to think beyond the moment,  build great buildings and world class businesses and attractions -Whether the Q deal and the Cavaliers percentage of financial contribution is a perfect equation - I admit, I don't know - but it's the deal that is on the table, one that can realistically happen and one that moves this city forward as "big league"  - I don't know how you calculate the value of that.  I hope there's a national tv night a few years from now where the broadcast camera pans from a modern "Nucleus" complex" to a transformed 21st century "Q".

Offline ragarcia

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2017, 12:04:00 PM »
It's amazing to me how little vision people can have sometimes.   Someone said that he couldn't imagine the Cavs leaving town and "where would they go?"  Really?  I can think of quite a few major towns that would love an NBA franchise...And remember, what seems unlikely can easily happen - It wasn't that long ago that we couldn't imagine the Cleveland Browns leaving. As great as the last few years with the Cavs have been with Cleveland on a world stage night after night, remember that the Cavs are just a part of the big picture - the Q frequently hosts world class concerts and special events - but that's been to a building that is rapidly aging when compared to similar buildings in competing cities. Underscore the word "competing".  It comes down to whether Cleveland wants to remain a major league market.   This city has been big league for many decades because great Clevelanders  had the vision to think beyond the moment,  build great buildings and world class businesses and attractions -Whether the Q deal and the Cavaliers percentage of financial contribution is a perfect equation - I admit, I don't know - but it's the deal that is on the table, one that can realistically happen and one that moves this city forward as "big league"  - I don't know how you calculate the value of that.  I hope there's a national tv night a few years from now where the broadcast camera pans from a modern "Nucleus" complex" to a transformed 21st century "Q".

I'm 100% in favor of the project, but to act like it is sorely needed and an absolute must in order to compete is a stretch. I've been to many arenas in my life, not one is substantially better than the Gund. Just to name a few:
- AA in Miami is beautiful, but terrible to access.
- Brooklyn is an absolute disaster. I was hugely disappointed that such a new facility was lacking in so many ways
- MSG, pshaw, never understood the love for this facility
- BB&T Center (Florida Panthers), bad location, bad facility, bad workflow
- Smoothie King Center (New Orleans Pelicans), small concourses and nothing else really stands out
- I'll soon get a chance to visit the new T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, I've heard good things about it.

Anyway, The Gund could certainly benefit from what is being proposed, but is it really falling way behind the competition? I don't see it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 04:40:50 PM by ragarcia »

Offline Old AmrapinVA

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Re: Cleveland: Quicken Loans Arena
« Reply #119 on: July 25, 2017, 12:46:57 PM »
No franchise is ever safe which is why these owners can play Russian Roulette with city administrators. Seattle, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Columbus, Nashville, Kansas City, Tampa and Las Vegas are all markets with legitimate size to draw an NBA team.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 12:48:47 PM by AmrapinVA »