Police Use of Force

[X]

That's some serious firepower- lots of 5.56 mm rifles.  I'm assuming those are AR's.  Some 7.62 mm rifles, too. Departments are getting them by the dozens or even hundreds.  Eighty or so for Akron, over 300 for Columbus, even Cleveland Metroparks Rangers are getting a few dozen.  None for Cleveland PD, though.

[Ram23]

^^ Cincinnati really dropped the ball if I'm reading that right - they came away empty handed??

Something to keep in mind about all this "militarization of police" rhetoric is that most or even all of this equipment is stuff that police departments would demand anyway - it ranges from rifles and bomb squad robots to mundane things like night vision, space heaters, jackets, etc. If you don't want your police department to have any of that equipment, take it up with your city council. Also, police departments are probably purchasing it all for 25 cents on the dollar, which saves a lot of money for municipalities. As "Urban Ohioans" we should be thankful the president restored this military surplus program, if anything it will (or should) free up some local money for other uses - and this is the money that the voter/taxpayer has the most direct say over.

[DeanSheen]

^ The issue, as I understand it, is not with the program but the lack of "limits" imposed on the program. 

There were some commonsense items (serious military hardware) excluded from the program but now everything is fair game to distribute to the police. 

IMO the discussion should be centered around if the United States wants a police force that is civilian or military in nature and the gear that police forces have should be part of that discussion and at some point, be codified into law.

[X]

I'm actually OK with the police having access to this equipment, but I'm trying to figure why they need 300+ assault rifles in Columbus, plus whatever they have.  Are they planning on invading Worthington?  Is this the secret to their success with annexing their neighbors?

[Cleburger]

I'm actually OK with the police having access to this equipment, but I'm trying to figure why they need 300+ assault rifles in Columbus, plus whatever they have.  Are they planning on invading Worthington?  Is this the secret to their success with annexing their neighbors?

I can almost understand the need for some of these items in big cities.  I think if you dug down into the numbers, the overwhelming amount of this stuff is ending up with suburban and rural departments.  The forces are increasingly ex-military guys and they are driving this militarization of local police.

[GCrites80s]

Columbus still doesn't have 400 horsepower Chargers but all the small towns and suburbs do.

[Chris DoorDashian]

...but I'm trying to figure why they need 300+ assault rifles in Columbus, plus whatever they have.  Are they planning on invading Worthington?  Is this the secret to their success with annexing their neighbors?

SHUSH!  The secret isn't supposed to be out yet!

[Cleburger]

Columbus still doesn't have 400 horsepower Chargers but all the small towns and suburbs do.

And this

[Ram23]

^ I agree that unmarked cars used exclusively for traffic enforcement are nothing but money makers. One clearly visible cop car, parked aside a highway, will result in pretty much everyone slowing down and driving at a safe, legal speed. It will also result in few tickets. An unmarked car will go unseen but allow the officer to write plenty of tickets.

Ohio actually has a law about this:

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4549.13

...though I don't know what our current policy is regarding "what constitutes such a distinctive marking."

Stealth is obviously needed when it comes to certain police activities, though, so unmarked cars shouldn't be out entirely.

[David]

I think the opposite is annoying, when people buy cars at police auctions and the cars still look like cop cars.

[MGM]

Columbus still doesn't have 400 horsepower Chargers but all the small towns and suburbs do.

And this

"Revenue Enhancement" via traffic citations.

[bfwissel]

So, comparing extremes in vehicles in police fleets.  Yeah, that's not intellectually dishonest.  And what exactly is bad about having police cars that make it easier for them to do their job to enforce speed limit laws passed by the legislature?  I never really understood this particular hate argument against police officers.

[GCrites80s]

I don't think those BMWs are that slow. They weigh a lot less.

[Cleburger]

So, comparing extremes in vehicles in police fleets.  Yeah, that's not intellectually dishonest.  And what exactly is bad about having police cars that make it easier for them to do their job to enforce speed limit laws passed by the legislature?  I never really understood this particular hate argument against police officers.

Because if you ask any officer on the record, the reason they are on the highway to catch speeders is for visibility and safety.   What they don't tell you is they want the visibility AFTER they've pulled someone over and collected a few hundred bucks off them.   I'm not sure how old you are, but once upon a time police cars here in the US were way more visible.  They are slowly slipping into all being blacked-out SUVs.   

[surfohio]

So, comparing extremes in vehicles in police fleets.  Yeah, that's not intellectually dishonest.  And what exactly is bad about having police cars that make it easier for them to do their job to enforce speed limit laws passed by the legislature?  I never really understood this particular hate argument against police officers.

Let us be honest. It's not all about safety, but making money. If we waged a "war on speeding" we could actually stop it altogether....but think of all the money that would be lost.

[KJP]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland Police Union President Steve Loomis (Trump supporter) feels the same way. Time for our city leaders to clean house in their Alt-White police departments.

Philly police union president calls Black Lives Matter activists "a pack of rabid animals." https://t.co/o3m8y8JtRj

[Cleburger]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland Police Union President Steve Loomis (Trump supporter) feels the same way. Time for our city leaders to clean house in their Alt-White police departments.

Philly police union president calls Black Lives Matter activists "a pack of rabid animals." https://t.co/o3m8y8JtRj

How do you get rid of a police union president?

[clvlndr]

^^And let's not forget the horrible names Loomis called President Obama following the president's very measured, very thoughtful and balanced comments after the several police shootings, where cops were both the perps and the victims... Loomis is trash.  I have no doubt his heart was in Charlottesville a month ago... and it wasn't on the side of the anti-Klan, Nazi, etc. protesters.

[E Rocc]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland Police Union President Steve Loomis (Trump supporter) feels the same way. Time for our city leaders to clean house in their Alt-White police departments.

Philly police union president calls Black Lives Matter activists "a pack of rabid animals." https://t.co/o3m8y8JtRj

How do you get rid of a police union president?

He was out for a term, but the rank and file started to doubt the city had their backs. 

[DarkandStormy]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/columbus-police-use-excessive-force-against-black-residents-lawsuit-says/

Columbus police use excessive force against black residents, lawsuit says

[KJP]

Oklahoma City cops fatally shot a deaf man as neighbors screamed, "He can't hear you!" https://trib.al/XvQy986

[Gramarye]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/us/michael-slager-sentence-walter-scott.html

The officer who shot Walter Scott in the back just got 20 years for second-degree murder.

[MGM]

Officer Not Guilty 2nd degree murder charge. Really bad, maybe the worst.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/08/graphic-video-shows-daniel-shaver-sobbing-and-begging-officer-for-his-life-before-2016-shooting/

[X]

He reached for his waistband, right after the police told them they would shoot him if he reached for his waistband.  That's how cops get killed.  They did the right thing.  This guy was threatening people with what looked to be a gun just moments earlier, though it turned out to be a pellet gun.

[Cleburger]

He reached for his waistband, right after the police told them they would shoot him if he reached for his waistband.  That's how cops get killed.  They did the right thing.  This guy was threatening people with what looked to be a gun just moments earlier, though it turned out to be a pellet gun.

This is still an officer that doesn't need to be interacting with the public.  He's obviously a phallic-challenged tiny man who couldn't handle a drunk suspect.  His partner seemed equally unqualified to deal with the situation.   And why not just taser the guy and while he's reeling on the ground, move in and cuff him? 

 

[viscomi]

My god. Not sure if I would have survived that scenario either. I would obviously never point a pellet gun at people but just taking the situation in the hallway into account, Im not sure many people would come out of that alive. Makes you think...

[X]

Yes, it does make me think...don't point weapons at people.  Don't create a life and death situation, you might end up on the wrong side of it.  Especially if you do the exact thing that they told you 5 seconds before would get you shot.  Don't do that thing.  What may sound harsh to us now listening from safe warm homes was actually very good, clear communication.  What the suspect needed to do was shut up and follow directions.

[Cleburger]

Yes, it does make me think...don't point weapons at people.  Don't create a life and death situation, you might end up on the wrong side of it.  Especially if you do the exact thing that they told you 5 seconds before would get you shot.  Don't do that thing.  What may sound harsh to us now listening from safe warm homes was actually very good, clear communication.  What the suspect needed to do was shut up and follow directions.

So because someone is incapacitated, or perhaps mentally challenged, you authorized the police to become judge, jury and executioner?  That suspect was not that bad.  Homeboy should get out of suburban Phoenix PD and try a few nights in Chicago.... In the meantime, he needs to be sent back for extensive re-training, or just find another line of work.

[MGM]

Yes, it does make me think...don't point weapons at people.  Don't create a life and death situation, you might end up on the wrong side of it.  Especially if you do the exact thing that they told you 5 seconds before would get you shot.  Don't do that thing.  What may sound harsh to us now listening from safe warm homes was actually very good, clear communication.  What the suspect needed to do was shut up and follow directions.

The victim never pointed a gun at the cop. There is no gun. WTF is wrong with you.

[X]

^^Nope, I authorize them to apprehend the suspect and do what's necessary to do so, and without letting themselves be killed in the process of trying to do so.  Saying the cop is in the wrong for shooting someone who reached for their waistband right after being told not (you do realize that is where people often keep their guns, right?) to is tantamount to saying the police shouldn't be allowed to protect their own or other's lives.  Sorry, I know you will protest that last part, but that is the effect of what you are saying.  A very, very bright (and entirely logical and correct) line was drawn of what would be considered a mortal threat to the officers life and communicated very clearly to the man with what the exact nature of what crossing that line would mean.  The man crossed that line not 5 seconds later.  This is a perfectly justified shooting by any reasonable analysis.  You're just operating with 20/20 hindsight.