Author Topic: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?  (Read 3228 times)

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Online YABO713

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2017, 08:23:40 PM »
@edale ^ Good conversation, by the way

Offline David

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2017, 09:22:54 PM »
I'm glad this thread still exists after all this time from when I initially made it. The electoral college system is a dangerous threat to real democracy.

Offline mu2010

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2017, 10:03:03 PM »
So, we are in a Federal system. Each state has its own rights and a certain degree of autonomy.

1 & 2. Their vote should count, but it counts within their respective state. You cannot think of it as a national aggregate, because it's not. You run to win a state. This works, in part, as a way to ensure that smaller, less populous states are ignored. If we used a popular vote, I think 25 states without go without a visit by either candidate. And I understand that a vote in Wyoming may be weighed heavier than that of a California resident, but they also have 52 less electoral votes to offer as well. So, while a Californians vote may be diluted, its actually more significant.

I agree with protection of the rights of political minorities such as those in small states and in rural areas, so as to prevent a "tyranny of the majority." The problem we have now though is that the protections envisioned by Madison et al, combined with the natural sorting of the population into cities, are creating a situation where the 20% of the country which is rural, has far outsized power in relation to the other 80% which is urban and suburban. Tyranny of the minority is also a thing. The whole system is just out of balance right now.

Offline David

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #93 on: December 12, 2017, 10:24:48 PM »
There's no reason why a rural state's vote should count more, plain and simple. It's stupid. How significant is the culture of each 'state' anyway? The only real cultural differences in America manifest between rural and urban/suburbanites. Even still, if living in rural America is so rough, adjust and move to larger metro areas like the hillbillies did after world war 2. At the very least, be vocal and blame the right people for your woes.

In the grant scheme of things, statehood is pretty irrelevant. A vote in Wyoming shouldn't be worth more than one in New York or wherever the so-called 'elites' are located. It's stupid. Popular vote is real democracy and that's what we need. The flaws in this stupid system finally manifested with the rise of Trump. A horrible president and certainly one of the most unpopular, if not the least unpopular. Not to mention, most incompetent.

Don't give me that nonsense about rural states being disenfranchised or however you want to put it.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 10:48:56 PM by David »

Online freefourur

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #94 on: December 12, 2017, 10:31:51 PM »
^ EC is the only way for GOP to win a national election.

Offline David

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2017, 10:33:42 PM »
It sure is.

Online freefourur

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2017, 10:35:49 PM »
besides W's reelection.  the GOP hasn't won a popular vote since 1988.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2017, 11:17:29 AM »
There were some articles in the last few weeks about the shift coming in the Senate.  Something like by 2040 70% of the country will be represented by 30 Senators.  That's insane!

So the Democrats inherently face an uphill battle.  This obviously all plays into the Electoral College discussion.

I don't know what the "right" or "fair" solution is.  Perhaps this is how the founders intended it.  The House (more or less) is represented by population - it's supposed to be anyway.  The Senate balances things out and gives more power to the less populated states.  One Senator from Alaska represents 370,947 people (2 Senators x 370,947 = population of Alaska).  One House Rep from California represents ~ 740,556 people = the population of Alaska nearly. 
Very Stable Genius

Online YABO713

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2017, 11:20:43 AM »
besides W's reelection.  the GOP hasn't won a popular vote since 1988.

Phrasing it that way sounds a lot better than George Bush won by 3,000,000 votes in 2004.

Online YABO713

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2017, 11:22:39 AM »
Not to be corny, but the brilliance of James Madison's political craftsmanship cannot be overstated. His systems still work to ensure each state has a voice and that an autocratic cheeto isn't able to push his agenda through without roadblocks.

Offline Ram23

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2017, 11:55:09 AM »
There were some articles in the last few weeks about the shift coming in the Senate.  Something like by 2040 70% of the country will be represented by 30 Senators.  That's insane!

How's that rank, proportionally, to historical numbers? We've always had a handful of "big states" and several small states. Looking at this chart, it seems to me like the states are actually a bit more closely bunched than they were in 1900. For example, in that year Nevada had as many senators as New York, despite the fact that NY had 172 times the population! Today, the biggest discrepancy is California, at 66 times the size of Wyoming.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/US_state_historical_population_FRED_SMIL.svg

(note that this is a bad graph IMO because of way the Y axis is scaled, but that's actually hurting my argument here instead of helping)

5) The Senate already gives residents in smaller states more of a voice than they should have, given their populations. Again, Wyoming and California both only have two senators, despite CA having almost 65 times the population of WY!

The Senate doesn't give residents "more of a voice than they should have," it gives them exactly the voice that was intended. This is one of they very foundations upon which the Republic was built. Almost any argument that can be made to abolish the electoral college could be used to argue that the Senate should be removed, as well. Either we are a federalist system of states, wherein each state as its own governmental body gets an equal say in some aspects of the legislative and executive branches, or we aren't. There's no reason to keep one and not the other. And if we eliminate them both, we become a completely different country. I wouldn't want to be the one telling 30 some smallish states that they have to continue to participate in a system that would be fundamentally different than the one they all signed up for.  Then again, it's by design that no one can tell 30 states what to do with these two particular issues - it would take 3/4 of them in agreement to revoke the electoral college, and no small state is ever going to sign on for such a thing.

Online YABO713

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #101 on: December 13, 2017, 12:04:55 PM »
Woah! @Ram23 and I agree ^ and a dem is in the Senate in Alabama. The end is nigh, my friends.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #102 on: December 13, 2017, 01:22:06 PM »
Larry Sabato wrote a book in 2007 that proposed a constitutional amendment that would give the 10 most-populous states 4 senators and the next 15 most-populous states 3 senators, for a total of 136 senators.  Without changing the structure of the Electoral College, this would automatically give the bigger states a little more weight in presidential elections. 

http://www.amoreperfectconstitution.com/23_proposals.htm

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #103 on: December 13, 2017, 11:12:41 PM »
4. Candidates have to campaign all over the country BECAUSE of the Electoral College. In a popular vote, the largest metros would make up a SIZABLE portion of the votes, thus forcing candidates to hover around those spots. Who would campaign in Arkansas, South Dakota, Vermont, or Montana without the Electoral College. Candidates are forced to confront regional issues that go beyond what we face in metropolitan areas. That is how James Madison ensured that all states were heard from.

If I'm reading right on Wikipedia, there have only been 5 instances of the popular vote winner losing-proof that the system works "most" of the time. 

In our two modern examples (Bush/Gore and Trump/Clinton--both extremely unpopular after inauguration), it came down to swing states.  So instead focusing on the population centers, instead they are parked in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida (great for our economy!).   How is this any different than if the candidates spent all their time in New York and Southern California?




Online KJP

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2018, 10:23:24 PM »
Another reason for NE Ohio to be beamed back aboard the mother ship....

Connecticut votes to give electoral votes to presidential candidate who wins popular vote https://t.co/ADg87L6itL
"Treat this (November 2018) election as if it's the last election in which you can fully exercise your democratic rights. Because it just might be." -- Margy Waller.

Online Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #105 on: May 07, 2018, 11:33:59 AM »
I don't see this ever really taking affect unless you can get Texas and Florida to follow suit with this, there really is no way to 270 without one of those states. (yes, I know there are a few other combinations that could get you there, but chances are if they are on one side, it is a hard climb to overcome)


Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2018, 11:22:58 AM »
http://theweek.com/articles/796519/electoral-college-civic-abomination

The Electoral College is a civic abomination

Quote
The Senate hugely amplifies the power of small states. (This comes on top of Republican gerrymandering of House districts, which does the same for rural areas within Republican-controlled states.) The Electoral College then does the same thing when it comes to choosing the presidency, and with incredibly significant consequences giving us George W. Bush instead of Al Gore and Donald Trump instead of Hillary Clinton, not to mention Neil Gorsuch instead of Merrick Garland.

That's all three branches of the federal government operating to systematically hand more political power to fewer people. If this happened in one branch of the federal government, perhaps it could be justified. But across them all? That's grossly unfair, as growing numbers of Americans are coming to recognize.
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Online YABO713

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2018, 11:28:24 AM »
http://theweek.com/articles/796519/electoral-college-civic-abomination

The Electoral College is a civic abomination

Quote
The Senate hugely amplifies the power of small states. (This comes on top of Republican gerrymandering of House districts, which does the same for rural areas within Republican-controlled states.) The Electoral College then does the same thing when it comes to choosing the presidency, and with incredibly significant consequences giving us George W. Bush instead of Al Gore and Donald Trump instead of Hillary Clinton, not to mention Neil Gorsuch instead of Merrick Garland.

That's all three branches of the federal government operating to systematically hand more political power to fewer people. If this happened in one branch of the federal government, perhaps it could be justified. But across them all? That's grossly unfair, as growing numbers of Americans are coming to recognize.

HAHAHA. This man lost his credibility when he said "it was a dumb idea when it was proposed."

A. He's asserting that he's smarter than James Madison - not the hill you want to die on.

B. It compelled hundreds of fledgling nations across the globe to reconsider direct democracy and the only modern means of conducting elections.

Gotta give this guy credit, he really threw a haymaker! He just hit the guy in the second row instead of his target.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2018, 09:39:04 AM »
Are any of the points not true about all three branches of government handing over political power to fewer people?
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Online YABO713

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2018, 09:43:44 AM »
Are any of the points not true about all three branches of government handing over political power to fewer people?

Rousseau has a phrase about that...

Online tklg

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2018, 10:09:17 AM »
The funniest thing about the electoral college is that the democratic party, the part that is supposedly of the people and focused on preserving equality and civil rights, believes that the electoral college exists to protect the nation from its voters by allowing super delegates to vote for whichever presidential candidate they believe.  That is both an insult to voters and also essentially removes any incentive to vote for any democratic presidential nominee.

The GOP super delegates, on the other hand, are bound to popular votes.

Now, there is some reform currently happening with the Dems, but I can't imagine super delegates going away any time, nor can I imagine Dems binding super delegates to popular vote.  The whole cabal would come crashing down!

Online Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Should We Abolish The Electoral College?
« Reply #111 on: September 24, 2018, 10:59:26 AM »
Dems voted to essentially get rid of Super Delegates on the first ballot.