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Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus  (Read 26714 times)

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Offline FancyMustard

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2014, 04:15:47 PM »
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2014, 04:19:17 PM »
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?

Probably pretty good considering the expected purchase price of the land. You can't service a loan of that size with smaller revenue from a smaller development. But some financiers are going to be very hesitant unless Stark can get some big anchors lined up and can offer some valuable collateral.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline tradition7

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2014, 04:41:09 PM »
I absolutely did not expect that kind of height! I think this will drastically alter the look driving through Cleveland on I-90 eastbound.  Also, the density this will cause on the north side of the arena will give a much more "big city" feel.

Offline Urbanophile

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2014, 05:06:24 PM »
I'm loving almost everything about this project, but I'm sort of disappointed to see that it looks like they will be tearing down the attractive little brick building facing Prospect. 

Offline JG

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2014, 05:10:27 PM »
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?

Probably pretty good considering the expected purchase price of the land. You can't service a loan of that size with smaller revenue from a smaller development. But some financiers are going to be very hesitant unless Stark can get some big anchors lined up and can offer some valuable collateral.

From Cranes: "Pietro said L&R set the price for the land high so that buyers would have to develop the sites vertically rather than continuing to operate it for parking."

Offline Klingaling87

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2014, 05:28:03 PM »
^ What's the actual likelihood that the buildings will be that tall?

Probably pretty good considering the expected purchase price of the land. You can't service a loan of that size with smaller revenue from a smaller development. But some financiers are going to be very hesitant unless Stark can get some big anchors lined up and can offer some valuable collateral.

From Cranes: "Pietro said L&R set the price for the land high so that buyers would have to develop the sites vertically rather than continuing to operate it for parking."

So, at the end of the day, thank you L&R?

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2014, 05:48:21 PM »
Ehhh

Offline Mendo

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2014, 05:49:26 PM »
So, at the end of the day, thank you L&R?

The quote from Crain's makes it sound like L&R had an altruistic reason for setting the price high. Fact is they wanted to get paid -- period.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2014, 06:06:10 PM »
I'm loving almost everything about this project, but I'm sort of disappointed to see that it looks like they will be tearing down the attractive little brick building facing Prospect. 

I think you're talking about the building with Mr. Albert's Men's World, with Nick's sports bar and that DNA rooftop club... yeah, I don't like losing a quirky little building like this because it adds to the unique, historic urban fabric of Prospect.  But I'd rather have this new development more.  Sometimes you've gotta give something to get something.

Offline CBC

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Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2014, 07:26:59 PM »
Holy smokes that's tall. Pure speculation but based on that massing its looks like there would be a 4/5 story parking structure on the inside or a open rooftop pool area, after I looked at it again.

Re: nicks sports. A true dive bar gem.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 07:29:14 PM by CBC »

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2014, 07:53:07 PM »
can someone post an aerial of the site as it looks now w/o the massing?

lets see if it really warrants teardowns.

Offline jjames0408

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2014, 08:39:40 PM »
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?

The graphic above is a massing, not a rendering. He'll use that to attract tenants (probably some anchor retailers), then draw up some conceptual renderings to secure the financing. And if he gets the financing, then we'll see some meaningful renderings. A lot of this is dependent on how fast The 9 fills up and at what rents. If Stark's project comes together quickly, then that will be a strong affirmation that downtown has turned another corner.
From my research of looking for places....The 9 seems to be over 50% leased already.

Offline sizzlinbeef

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2014, 08:44:42 PM »
Quote
can someone post an aerial of the site as it looks now w/o the massing?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 08:45:32 PM by sizzlinbeef »

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2014, 11:00:25 PM »
So, I wonder how this will tie in with the Ferrari dealership :wink:.

Huh, that was actually one of the first things I thought of- I actually think it makes development of that site quite a bit more feasible, as it is actually right across East 4th St. from Stark's project, and could be a continuation of the Huron retail frontage created by Stark's project- all the way to Ontario.  Of course, foot traffic isn't what sells Ferraris, as only the richest of the people rich enough to buy one can afford to do so as an impulse buy.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 11:01:48 PM by X »

Offline Whipjacka

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2014, 11:40:10 PM »
It may not help get the ferrari brand, but it might help justify the construction of such a large building. 

Get the casino across the street and that ontario-huron intersection will be cookin with gas.

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2014, 04:47:58 AM »
I never thought I'd see the day when this site would see a potential redevelopment much less people wringing their hands about the potential loss of the former Domino Lounge (Nick's Sports bar). Architecturally, I don't see it as a great loss but the building has some interesting history when it comes to Cleveland's jazz scene: http://www.cleveland.oh.us/wmv_news/jazz136.htm
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 04:59:14 AM by MayDay »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2014, 07:33:21 AM »
I hate to see any historic structures get demolished. But if sacrificing this otherwise inglorious building and the nasty parking structure behind it is the price for filling one of downtown's most notable parking craters (second only to the Public-Square/Warehouse District crater -- more like a dead sea), then I'll take it.

BTW, someone asked earlier if Stark can do this given his failure with Pesht. He most certainly does have the capacity. Consider that he invested $400 million on Crocker Park's initial phase (and continues to invest with the second-phase residential, a new hotel and American Greetings HQ), with a cost of construction in excess of $400 per square foot. That includes all the planning, site prep, legal costs, interest, etc. Downtown will be more expensive, perhaps $500 per square foot or higher. If Stark invested in nuCLEus the same $400 million he initially invested in Crocker Park, we could be looking at an 800,000-square-foot project. That's not to say this is what he has in mind. This development actually looks like two 20-story towers, connected by a backwards C-shaped shaped structure of about 10-15 stories. In terms of total floors, that's in the ballpark of a Key Tower which has 1.5 million square feet. So based only on a distant view of a massing, Stark's conceptual idea for this development appears to be about double the size of the initial phase of Crocker Park. And like I said, Crocker Park has been added onto a lot since with new residential, AG and the hotel. So I would think Stark has the capacity to bring off this project, which I would guess has a total investment somewhere in the $700 million to $800 million range. But this project is a big hail mary -- as is the lakefront development which is of similar scale and price tag. That project is being developed in phases, and Stark will surely have to to develop this site in phases too -- most likely starting with the low-level stuff on Prospect west of East 4th. The phasing of what he builds next will depend on what retail anchors he signs. He'll have to get retail anchors to get financing. No one is going to give Stark the financing based on speculation he'll fill the towers at the rents needed -- though The 9's leasing at its higher rates is certainly encouraging.

BTW, the phasing to build everything could take 10 years or so. I was covering Westlake from 1996-2005 for Sun Newspapers when Crocker Park's first phase (the retail core) was finished in 2004. The planning for Crocker Park started several years before that. It was a disgusting legal and PR battle with the Jacobs Group fighting it by funding a citizens group, Citizens for a Greener Westlake. But that fight was not the reason why the project is still being built more than a decade later. Cleveland isn't Kuala Lumpur, Dubai or even Chicago. It takes many years for a project's phasing to be completed in Greater Cleveland. Stark is in his 60s and fought cancer a decade ago. But I see at least one of his sons is following in his father's development footsteps. So there is a realistic chance this project will be nurtured over time.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 07:56:16 AM by KJP »
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Offline gotribe

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2014, 07:44:02 AM »
Looking at the massing, if we could bookend E4th with nuCLEus (can't believe I actually used that term) and 515 tower, downtown CLE would be in real good shape.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2014, 09:33:56 AM »
I would trade 515 for a lakefront cluster.

That said, this project (w/ the dumb name) is such an unexpected delight!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 09:35:15 AM by Punch »

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2014, 10:43:46 AM »
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?

The graphic above is a massing, not a rendering. He'll use that to attract tenants (probably some anchor retailers), then draw up some conceptual renderings to secure the financing. And if he gets the financing, then we'll see some meaningful renderings. A lot of this is dependent on how fast The 9 fills up and at what rents. If Stark's project comes together quickly, then that will be a strong affirmation that downtown has turned another corner.
From my research of looking for places....The 9 seems to be over 50% leased already.

69% to be exact.

Offline freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2014, 11:19:51 AM »
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 11:20:28 AM by freethink »

Offline Urbanophile

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2014, 01:17:50 PM »
I'm loving almost everything about this project, but I'm sort of disappointed to see that it looks like they will be tearing down the attractive little brick building facing Prospect. 

I think you're talking about the building with Mr. Albert's Men's World, with Nick's sports bar and that DNA rooftop club... yeah, I don't like losing a quirky little building like this because it adds to the unique, historic urban fabric of Prospect.  But I'd rather have this new development more.  Sometimes you've gotta give something to get something.

I agree that this new development has a lot more to give than that little brick building. But still, it's a nice handsome historic building. I wish they could just build on top of it and keep the facade. If we were in Europe, I'm sure that's what would be happening. But alas, we are not.

However, if the Harold Building is really going to be restored to its original state, then I guess it sort of cancels out the demolition. I was certain for the longest time that there was no saving that building.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2014, 02:04:43 PM »
It will be interesting to see what kind (and how much) retail Stark will be able to attract to this complex.  Nobody knows of course, but I'm assuming it would be on the ground level along Prospect, which will be interesting in terms of the historical association of retail to Euclid.  With the apartments going in at the May Co. building, the restoration of the Herold, along with Red, The Steakhouse, among other substantial developments, Prospect is becoming the Hot street downtown amazing considering the dump/hooker haven it was not even 15 years ago.  Id have expected the apartment tower at 515 to be developed before this, but well take an all-new, luxury residential structure of this purported magnitude wherever we can get it   

Offline Clefan98

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2014, 02:09:33 PM »
Barrio will be a nice addition on that stretch as well. 

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2014, 06:53:17 AM »
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.

American Greetings had no interest in being downtown.
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Offline STRIVE2THRIVE

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2014, 07:57:06 AM »
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.

American Greetings had no interest in being downtown.
I bet in a few years when the downtown population has grown even more, especially with millenials American Greetings will regret not being downtown.  I think it was on this site that talked about how Progressive is recruiting young professionals showing them downtown and a lot of them love it, but not the fact that Progressive is out in the suburbs.  Can't help but think that would certainly apply to American Greetings' recruits.

Offline Equillibrius

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2014, 08:22:17 AM »
I hope whatever retail gets built is placed along East 4th between Prospect and Huron. Maybe even close the street to pedestrians only, like the current East 4th, but traffic considerations for The Q/Progressive Field might prevent it.

Offline freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2014, 08:28:33 AM »
Too bad Stark couldn't have had American Greetings as a part of this development instead of luring them to Westlake.

American Greetings had no interest in being downtown.

And Lebron's not coming back, and the RNC is going to Dallas, and we will never add hundreds of new residences/hotels etc.
This is New Cleveland...all things are possible...

Offline Whipjacka

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2014, 01:23:28 PM »
If they had interest in moving downtown, they wouldn't have moved to westlake.

Offline JG

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Re: Cleveland: Stark's nuCLEus development
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2014, 06:53:27 PM »
How is there a picture of the skyline renderings?  Are there already renderings of the buildings themselves?

The graphic above is a massing, not a rendering. He'll use that to attract tenants (probably some anchor retailers), then draw up some conceptual renderings to secure the financing. And if he gets the financing, then we'll see some meaningful renderings. A lot of this is dependent on how fast The 9 fills up and at what rents. If Stark's project comes together quickly, then that will be a strong affirmation that downtown has turned another corner.
From my research of looking for places....The 9 seems to be over 50% leased already.

69% to be exact.

I received an email Friday stating "The 9 in downtown Cleveland is now officially 75% leased!"