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Author Topic: Puerto Rico 51st State?  (Read 328 times)

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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2012, 01:39:57 PM »
And yet, for all of that, DC is among the wealthiest American cities, even after averaging in a significant poor population.

Really?   I'd like to see a link.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2012, 01:42:44 PM »
Ask yourself this question, does Puerto Rico pay more in taxes to the government than it takes back?  If the answer you find turns out to be "no," then perhaps you'll undestand what I meant about it being unfair to U.S. taxpayers.

That doesn't prove anything.  Many U.S. states get back more in government spending than they pay in taxes.

I had a feeling that retort was coming.  It's my understanding that Puerto Rico is taxed differently (i.e. less), though.  Even if I'm wrong on that, there's no getting rid of any states at this point because they're already part of the union.  However P.R. is not, and therefore I don't see why this country needs yet another political subdivision that is taking in more than it gives.  But this not just about P.R., as I said above I think that the U.S. needs to unload all of its de facto colonies. 
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2012, 01:44:50 PM »
And yet, for all of that, DC is among the wealthiest American cities, even after averaging in a significant poor population.

Really?   I'd like to see a link.

I already know when I see that quote that no link actually provided is going to meet your approval, but I'll provide one anyway.  It's not a big deal, since it only took maybe 30 seconds of Googling:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/05/americas-richest-cities_n_1943642.html

Quote
Other key indicators released for 2011 show the disparity between these rich and poor cities. Poverty rates in some of the poor cities are well above the national rate of 15.3 percent. In McAllen, Tex., more than 35 percent of residents lived below the poverty level in 2011. In Washington, D.C., one of the wealthiest cities, just 8.3 percent of residents lived in poverty.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/americas-richest-poorest-cities-1C6454601?streamSlug=businessmain

Quote
These are America's richest (and poorest) cities:

Richest cities

1. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, D.C.-Va.-Md.-W.Va.

    Median household income: $86,680
    Population: 5,703,948 (seventh highest)
    Unemployment rate: 5.8 percent (29th lowest)
    Percent households below poverty line: 8.3 percent (fifth lowest)

The Washington area is filled with tens of thousands of highly-skilled professionals in a host of different industries, from consulting to law to defense contracting. In fact, the Brookings Institute dubbed the area the most educated in the country because 46.8 percent of adult residents in 2010 had at least a college degree. The median home value in the area was more than double the national figure of $173,600, while 4.5 percent of homes were worth more than $1 million, compared to 2 percent nationally. The median rent of $1,391 in Washington, D.C., was higher than in all but the San Jose and Honolulu metropolitan areas.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2012, 01:51:11 PM »
And yet, for all of that, DC is among the wealthiest American cities, even after averaging in a significant poor population.

Really?   I'd like to see a link.

I already know when I see that quote that no link actually provided is going to meet your approval, but I'll provide one anyway.  It's not a big deal, since it only took maybe 30 seconds of Googling:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/05/americas-richest-cities_n_1943642.html

Quote
Other key indicators released for 2011 show the disparity between these rich and poor cities. Poverty rates in some of the poor cities are well above the national rate of 15.3 percent. In McAllen, Tex., more than 35 percent of residents lived below the poverty level in 2011. In Washington, D.C., one of the wealthiest cities, just 8.3 percent of residents lived in poverty.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/americas-richest-poorest-cities-1C6454601?streamSlug=businessmain

Quote
These are America's richest (and poorest) cities:

Richest cities

1. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, D.C.-Va.-Md.-W.Va.

    Median household income: $86,680
    Population: 5,703,948 (seventh highest)
    Unemployment rate: 5.8 percent (29th lowest)
    Percent households below poverty line: 8.3 percent (fifth lowest)

The Washington area is filled with tens of thousands of highly-skilled professionals in a host of different industries, from consulting to law to defense contracting. In fact, the Brookings Institute dubbed the area the most educated in the country because 46.8 percent of adult residents in 2010 had at least a college degree. The median home value in the area was more than double the national figure of $173,600, while 4.5 percent of homes were worth more than $1 million, compared to 2 percent nationally. The median rent of $1,391 in Washington, D.C., was higher than in all but the San Jose and Honolulu metropolitan areas.

24/7 is an advertorial company, they write market articles.  We used to own them.   This is a real estate based article.  If you notice both "articles" are by the same person.

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2012, 02:08:59 PM »
Then give me the real facts, if those are somehow invented.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 02:53:33 PM »
Then give me the real facts, if those are somehow invented.

I don't have the answer, which is why I asked you for a link.  However, I do know that company is paid to write various information, based on what the client wants.

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2012, 05:32:04 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2012, 05:37:01 PM »
Then give me the real facts, if those are somehow invented.

Are we talking about cities proper or metropolitan areas?  I think when you throw in NoVa and the Maryland suburbs, obviously D.C. looks very wealthy.  But if it's just the city itself, I suspect it drops down on the list significantly, even though there is still a lot of wealth within city limits.  But a lot of the big-money Federal workers live outside of the city.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2012, 08:42:52 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

I should have put a sarcasm symbol in.  Of course we can't get of Alaska, but people are paid to live there (dividend fund & native corporation), they pay no sales or income tax.

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 04:27:38 AM »
pr might rank around the lower 30s in gsp compared to the rest of the states.

i say might rank because its gsp on this wiki ranking was taken from a different source:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP#section_1

tourism is thee economic driver, because the rest of it is in sorry state for the most part.

btw - ohio was ranked 8th (2010)



Offline helmespc

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2012, 12:54:30 PM »
A couple things in the current environment might have to get moved around to make it happen. Perhaps UVI and PR are combined into a Caribbean state (we already push together a lot of a very different cultures into one state right now). I'd imagine D.C. would throw a fit if they weren't let in at the same time. No way the GOP let's two likely solid Dem states bring four senators in w/out finding a balance of some sort. Options include returning D.C. to Maryland, dividing one of the big states (Texas or California most likely but not at all likely). I could see a similar Pacific island state with Guam and American Samoa. You'd also see serious pressure to increase the size of the House of Representatives. 

There's something very fitting about the "tea party" being on the side of taxation-without-representation....

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2012, 01:09:19 PM »
>he US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.


No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Interesting is if you watch reruns of I Love Lucy, you will see how Cuban music and culture was once mainstream in the United States.  I don't think anybody back then anyone could have dreamed at Castro would still be alive and in control after 1970, let alone 2012!

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2012, 02:22:01 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

I should have put a sarcasm symbol in.  Of course we can't get of Alaska, but people are paid to live there (dividend fund & native corporation), they pay no sales or income tax.

This is true, but again I think resource extraction more than pays for those subsidies.  It's a net gain for the country to hold on to Alaska.  Not sure if that's true of PR.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2012, 03:46:30 PM »
Personally I don't like the idea of the United States holding on to these overseas territories or "possessions" like Puerto Rico, Guam, USVI, etc.  I would vastly prefer to see all of these states given the option of either becoming states or becoming independent.  I don't think it's fair to U.S. taxpayers or to residents of these places to keep them in what I see as "limbo."

I dont believe we would ever give any of them up. Look at every one, they all have military bases on them. The United States uses them strategically, just like we do with Hawaii and Alaska.

Offline Eigth and State

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2012, 07:18:49 PM »



>the US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.

No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Huh? From the Wikipedia article:

"After the Spanish-American War, Spain and the United States signed the Treaty of Paris (1898), by which Spain ceded Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam to the United States for the sum of $20 million."

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2012, 07:23:45 PM »
Personally I don't like the idea of the United States holding on to these overseas territories or "possessions" like Puerto Rico, Guam, USVI, etc.  I would vastly prefer to see all of these states given the option of either becoming states or becoming independent.  I don't think it's fair to U.S. taxpayers or to residents of these places to keep them in what I see as "limbo."

I dont believe we would ever give any of them up. Look at every one, they all have military bases on them. The United States uses them strategically, just like we do with Hawaii and Alaska.

Yeah but we have military bases everywhere (why this is necessary is beyond, but that's not the point).  I suppose if we did ever grant them independence being able to keep a military base around might be an important stipulation.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2012, 04:57:09 AM »



>the US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.

No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Huh? From the Wikipedia article:

"After the Spanish-American War, Spain and the United States signed the Treaty of Paris (1898), by which Spain ceded Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam to the United States for the sum of $20 million."

>he US has previously owned Cuba.  We don't want it back.


No, I don't think we did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–United_States_relations

Interesting is if you watch reruns of I Love Lucy, you will see how Cuban music and culture was once mainstream in the United States.  I don't think anybody back then anyone could have dreamed at Castro would still be alive and in control after 1970, let alone 2012!

Yes the US owned Cuba.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1891359,00.html

Quote
But the U.S. and Cuba's ties go back well before Castro. In 1898, at the end of the Spanish-American war, a defeated Spain signed the rights to its territories — including Cuba, Puerto Rico and Guam — over to the U.S., which subsequently granted Cuba its independence with the stipulation that the U.S. could intervene in the country's affairs if necessary (later relinquished) and that it be granted a perpetual lease on its naval base at Guantánamo Bay (not).

Online E Rocc

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2012, 05:24:20 AM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 05:26:25 AM by E Rocc »

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2012, 05:42:43 AM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 

Dude...that was sarcasm!


Can we get back to PR?

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2012, 07:21:36 PM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 

Dude...that was sarcasm!


Can we get back to PR?

Even if nothing comes of it, I do find this discussion very interesting.  MTS, how do Puerto Ricans feel about their current situation?  Do they feel like they're being "occupied," or are most accepting of the status of their island?

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2012, 07:48:02 AM »
Then get rid of Alaska.    At least PR has industry, like tourism, which keeps USD in the US.

Alaska is a gold mine, literally and figuratively, and has a ton of potential moving forward in terms of energy production.  But we can't just "get rid" of any state.  We can get rid of a territory if its residents do not want to become a state.

Yeah, let's get rid of our biggest oil reserves. 

Dude...that was sarcasm!


Can we get back to PR?

Even if nothing comes of it, I do find this discussion very interesting.  MTS, how do Puerto Ricans feel about their current situation?  Do they feel like they're being "occupied," or are most accepting of the status of their island?

I cannot speak for all PRs, only myself and I can talk about conversations I've had with relatives.  I don't think anyone feels that PR is "occupied".  I know a lot feel they don't have the full right to vote.  I know my mother felt that way until she move to the states.

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2015, 09:23:04 PM »
Puerto Rico is now on the verge of default.  There's no way it can pay back it's debts

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/puerto-ricos-governor-says-islands-debts-are-not-payable.html

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2015, 11:55:14 AM »
This totally surprised me; I had no idea things were that bad there.  I can't even believe that the credit markets let them borrow that much.

Offline KyleCincy

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2015, 12:01:15 PM »
Puerto Rico is now on the verge of default.  There's no way it can pay back it's debts

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/puerto-ricos-governor-says-islands-debts-are-not-payable.html

Maybe Greece can re colonize them? lol

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2015, 12:02:40 PM »
can't mts just write a check?

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2015, 01:12:28 PM »
This totally surprised me; I had no idea things were that bad there.  I can't even believe that the credit markets let them borrow that much.

This was discussed somewhere in another thread, about growing municipal defaults.  I tried searching for it but ended up posting in here.  Going to be very interesting to see where this goes.  Many see it as a barometer for how other large municipal defaults will be handled

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2015, 02:13:43 PM »
Growing municipal defaults, yes.  That I absolutely have been aware of (more than most because complex insolvency is actually one of my professional fields).  Even the growing state-level insolvencies in California, Illinois, and New York, among others.  This one still managed to sneak up on me, and those numbers are considerably worse than those the U.S. states that we consider the bad apples.

Online surfohio

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2015, 03:22:48 PM »
This totally surprised me; I had no idea things were that bad there.  I can't even believe that the credit markets let them borrow that much.

This was discussed somewhere in another thread, about growing municipal defaults.  I tried searching for it but ended up posting in here.  Going to be very interesting to see where this goes.  Many see it as a barometer for how other large municipal defaults will be handled

For years PR has been propped up by some U.S. economic incentives that no longer exist. I have no doubt that some of the bad news is a result of the corporate shuffling going on as tax incentives have expired. 

Offline unusualfire

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2015, 03:55:15 PM »
$70+ billion!!!!!! What did they spend it on? What do they have to show for it?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 03:55:35 PM by unusualfire »

Offline Hts121

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Re: Puerto Rico 51st State?
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2015, 04:44:16 PM »
^siestas