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Author Topic: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles  (Read 1469 times)

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Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2016, 08:16:27 AM »
This sounds kind of welfare-y to me. Like how they beefed up all of those old military bases named after Confederate Generals in the South while letting Midwestern ones named after Presidents and U.S. war heroes die off.

Offline KJP

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2017, 07:36:56 PM »
Hospitals Play a Key Role in Building Pathways Out of Poverty
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/hospitals-play-key-role-building-pathways-out-of-poverty
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Offline UrbanSurfin

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2017, 08:42:57 AM »
It's a tough change for hospitals to make, and they're often forced by resentful neighbors to do so. Aultman didn't do much for its Canton neighborhood for a long time until all the current big planning efforts came up. In Columbus, one urban hospital on the near West Side is packing up and moving to the 'burbs -- leaving all its investment behind and building anew in a way that surely will affect health-care costs. Meanwhile, on the near East Side the ever-expanding children's hospital is finally talking to its neighbors and acknowledging its community after decades of tearing down homes for parking lots. Hospitals, universities, and churches are some of the biggest destroyers of neighborhoods in the quest for surface parking.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2017, 09:29:36 AM »
It certainly would be nice if these quasi-public entities and large NGOs had to deal with the same opposition that the private sector does. It would disarm right-wing complainers and force better urban design on those that think they are above the law.

Offline 327

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2017, 09:40:07 AM »
Every time a hospital expands, that parcel stops paying property tax.  This is a major flaw in the concept of building an economy around them.

Online StapHanger

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2017, 10:03:07 AM »
^I think it's a little more complicated than that. The City of Cleveland literally collects 10x as much from income taxes than property taxes at this point, and hospitals are income bonanzas. Schools definitely take a nominal hit, but at the same time, unlike residential property, hospitals don't consume school district resources, so it's not as bad as, say, tax abated or non-profit housing.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2017, 11:01:45 AM »
Even if a hospital worker lives out in the sticks (like many do) the city still gets dibs on their earnings taxes. Townships cannot institute earnings taxes.

Offline 327

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2017, 12:19:42 PM »
^I think it's a little more complicated than that. The City of Cleveland literally collects 10x as much from income taxes than property taxes at this point, and hospitals are income bonanzas. Schools definitely take a nominal hit, but at the same time, unlike residential property, hospitals don't consume school district resources, so it's not as bad as, say, tax abated or non-profit housing.

2 questions are raised by this:  why, and is it the best way forward?  Income taxes just went up and that's not exactly the best way to attract non-hospital employers nor residents who work elsewhere.

Offline BigDipper 80

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2017, 06:03:06 PM »
Long video but an interesting watch:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuYiAUYpNq8&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
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Offline KJP

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2017, 06:23:27 AM »
The Preston model: UK takes lessons in recovery from rust-belt Cleveland
As councils struggle with cuts, one Lancastrian city adapted a pioneering grassroots approach from America to tackling inequality and keeping profits local
Hazel Sheffield in Preston
Tuesday 11 April 2017 02.15 EDT Last modified on Tuesday 11 April 2017 06.24 EDT

Ted Howard looks out on a group of people drinking tea from styrofoam cups at Preston town hall on a Monday afternoon in March. The social entrepreneur and author from Cleveland, Ohio, is the special guest at the city’s monthly social forum. “What’s happening in this community is historic – it blows my mind,” he tells the city councillors and local business owners. “We’re working out how to build an inclusive economy.”

Howard’s infectious enthusiasm has made him the de facto spokesperson for “community wealth building”, a way of tackling inequality by ensuring the economic development of a place is shared more equally among its residents.

MORE
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/apr/11/preston-cleveland-model-lessons-recovery-rust-belt
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Offline KJP

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2017, 08:28:28 AM »
Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest
Time to shift economic activity from the overcrowded coasts to places that need more of it.
Updated by Matthew Yglesias@mattyglesiasmatt@vox.com  Dec 9, 2016, 8:30am EST

MORE:
http://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/12/9/13881712/move-government-to-midwest

Rep. Tim Ryan suggests relocating federal agencies outside Washington, D.C.
By Sabrina Eaton, cleveland.com
on April 20, 2017 at 6:39 PM, updated April 20, 2017 at 8:41 PM

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."

While the congressman said the nation should be proud of Washington, D.C. and its historic role, he said "the Founding Fathers could not have imagined our current federal government system, with more than 300,000 federal workers in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area in 190 federally-owned buildings and 500 leased buildings."

MORE:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/04/rep_tim_ryan_suggests_relocati.html#incart_most-commented_metro_article
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Offline gaslight

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #101 on: April 21, 2017, 09:56:41 AM »
Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest
Time to shift economic activity from the overcrowded coasts to places that need more of it.
Updated by Matthew Yglesias@mattyglesiasmatt@vox.com  Dec 9, 2016, 8:30am EST

MORE:
http://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/12/9/13881712/move-government-to-midwest

Rep. Tim Ryan suggests relocating federal agencies outside Washington, D.C.
By Sabrina Eaton, cleveland.com
on April 20, 2017 at 6:39 PM, updated April 20, 2017 at 8:41 PM

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."

While the congressman said the nation should be proud of Washington, D.C. and its historic role, he said "the Founding Fathers could not have imagined our current federal government system, with more than 300,000 federal workers in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area in 190 federally-owned buildings and 500 leased buildings."

MORE:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/04/rep_tim_ryan_suggests_relocati.html#incart_most-commented_metro_article

Tim Ryan is such a good congressman, the Democrats lost a good opportunity to move more to the center after this last election, When they stuck with Nancy Pelosi instead of going with Tim.

Offline plinth857

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #102 on: April 21, 2017, 10:11:26 AM »
Let’s relocate a bunch of government agencies to the Midwest
Time to shift economic activity from the overcrowded coasts to places that need more of it.

I'd love to see the NIH in Cleveland.  Especially since it's not even in DC proper.  It would match well with the city's large healthcare presence.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:11:47 AM by plinth857 »

Offline 327

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #103 on: April 21, 2017, 11:09:21 AM »
Tim Ryan is such a good congressman, the Democrats lost a good opportunity to move more to the center after this last election, When they stuck with Nancy Pelosi instead of going with Tim.

Do you mean geographic center?  I think Ryan is great but would not call him a centrist.  He was trying to pull the party leftward against Pelosi's coastal centrist orthodoxy, economically speaking.  His point in running for leader was to refocus the party on economic populism, which goes hand in hand with granting more influence to the rust belt.

Offline Dougal

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2017, 01:16:34 PM »

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."


This is not a new idea. In the Nixon years the Feds came up with the GOWN (Get Out of Washington Now) Program. For various reasons it went nowhere.

A better approach for Cleveland would be for area congressmen (and local civic sponsors) to pick something small and new to go after. An example might be the NIH's radiographic data repository. It's not wildly glamorous; it's physical location isn't especially important; and it's a small program. It will, however, be "huge and beautiful", as somebody in DC might say, in the future. Local sponsors would need to offer incentives, but they wouldn't need to be too great. Plus the city with Picker, Hitachi, ViewRay, etc., has "radiology credentials" as good as anybody's.   This approach is how Baltimore ended up with 20,000+ Social Security jobs.   
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Offline audidave

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2017, 01:35:02 PM »
Don't forget most of the Federal jobs in West Virginia are because of Senator Byrd.
  I see this as a worthwhile direction to explore. Anything NIH related would be a boon to Cleveland.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2017, 01:47:05 PM »

WASHINGTON, D. C. - Could federal employment transplanted from the nation's capital replace some of the jobs lost in other parts of the country?

That's what Rep. Tim Ryan wants to find out.

The Niles Democrat introduced legislation Thursday that would establish a commission to study relocating federal agencies to economically distressed parts of the country, or "areas with expertise in the mission and goal of the agency."


This is not a new idea. In the Nixon years the Feds came up with the GOWN (Get Out of Washington Now) Program. For various reasons it went nowhere.

A better approach for Cleveland would be for area congressmen (and local civic sponsors) to pick something small and new to go after. An example might be the NIH's radiographic data repository. It's not wildly glamorous; it's physical location isn't especially important; and it's a small program. It will, however, be "huge and beautiful", as somebody in DC might say, in the future. Local sponsors would need to offer incentives, but they wouldn't need to be too great. Plus the city with Picker, Hitachi, ViewRay, etc., has "radiology credentials" as good as anybody's.   This approach is how Baltimore ended up with 20,000+ Social Security jobs.   

Something environmental-related would also be nice. A research facility that can partner up with local universities. We have a fairly important body of water to our immediate north, with lots of room for development. 

Offline KJP

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2017, 01:49:00 PM »
Is It Time to Move Federal Agencies Out of Washington?
Ian Smith   April 21, 2017

Another Congressman wants to explore the possibility of moving federal agencies outside of Washington, DC.

Congressman Tim Ryan (D-OH) has introduced the Federal Government Decentralization Commission Act (H.R. 2112), legislation that would establish a commission under the General Services Administration (GSA), headed by the Administrator of the GSA and 10 other members, that would study the relocation of select executive agencies or divisions of agencies outside the Washington metropolitan area.

...“Our country should be proud of our capital city, and the role it plays in our history and the running of the federal government. But the Founding Fathers could not have imagined our current federal government system, with more than 300,000 federal workers in the Washington DC metropolitan area in 190 federally-owned buildings and 500 leased buildings,” said Ryan.

He added: "Our government belongs to all Americans, and communities across the United States should be able to benefit from the economic boost these employment centers could bring, especially to economically distressed places. The technology available to us today allows for seamless communication and collaboration regardless of geographic location, and is already allowing a web of federal offices and agencies across the US, such as the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta to perform their work without being inside the DC beltway. This is a common sense way to help cities like Cleveland or Detroit share in the economic development that comes from playing host to part of the federal government."

Ryan is not the first Congressman to suggest moving agencies outside of Washington. Congressman Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) introduced a resolution earlier this year expressing Congressional support for getting agencies out of DC.

- See more at: https://www.fedsmith.com/2017/04/21/time-move-federal-agencies-washington/#sthash.NIUm9deE.dpuf
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Offline KJP

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2017, 10:09:36 AM »
Here's a Rust Belt revival idea -- cities and their surrounding regions on the south sides of lakes Erie and Ontario leave the USA for Canada. After all, the major cities on the Canadians side of Ontario/Erie are growing. They understand how to grow aging industrial cities. The USA doesn't.....

It's Time for Buffalo to Secede, and Join Canada
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-04-27/it-s-time-for-buffalo-to-secede-and-join-canada

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:13:41 AM by KJP »
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Offline E Rocc

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2017, 11:15:05 AM »
Here's a Rust Belt revival idea -- cities and their surrounding regions on the south sides of lakes Erie and Ontario leave the USA for Canada. After all, the major cities on the Canadians side of Ontario/Erie are growing. They understand how to grow aging industrial cities. The USA doesn't.....

It's Time for Buffalo to Secede, and Join Canada
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-04-27/it-s-time-for-buffalo-to-secede-and-join-canada



???????

We had this conversation on another thread, there is virtually nothing on the Canadian Lake Erie shore between Leamington and Niagara Falls.  Everything is well inland.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 11:15:30 AM by E Rocc »

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2017, 12:30:47 PM »
again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2017, 02:29:34 PM »
again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

But Cleveland and Buffalo have similar paths that cities like Burlington, Hamilton and Oshawa have been on.   I think it's a macro problem.  Canada is still closer to its European roots, and is prospering as a socialist-lite democracy.   Here in the USA, Wall Street decides who lives and dies, and will sell out the backbone of a city to move to another area for cheaper wages and the resulting 5% stock increase.

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

But that wouldn't explain Windsor and London, both clearly away from Toronto's sphere.  London would be akin to Erie (with an actual skyline); Windsor would be Canada's version of Detroit (auto industry, border, blue-collar, Arab).
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Offline clvlndr

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2017, 03:19:17 PM »
again, it's not realistic to compare the success of these Canadian cities to American cities just because they're in the same region. The top Canadian cities are part of the economic engine that basically runs Canada, a region called the Golden Horseshoe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe). The old American cities around the Great Lakes may have been great industrial powerhouses for the nation at one time, but no more. The expectation that somehow an economic and growth equivalency to Canada is attainable with the "right" kind of planning is ridiculous. Like I've said repeatedly, Toronto is Canada's "New York and LA" combined, and nothing that Cleveland or Buffalo do can ever match that.

I completely disagree. It absolutely is a viable comparison. Saying that these Canadian cities are somehow different than their south of the Lake(s) and border American counterparts because they are part of some special region -- whatever -- is a convenient way to make excuses for the deleterious political and social behavior in America that views blue collar cities, and the people that inhabit them, as 'throw away'  leading to cutesy, disgusting monikers like ( 'Rust Belt.'  Much of this attitude is rooted in good old American classism and racism....

Canada is far from perfect and isn't totally free of these maladies either, but they are much weaker there and more robust and pervasive here to the point that they are sowed deep into the American fabric. And as heartening as it is to see the partial comebacks of old industrial cities like Cleveland, Buffalo and Detroit, the fact is these comebacks' foundation are rooted in gentrification: that is they can only comeback if they are built exclusively for the professional classes; mainly whites but also Asians and a few black and Hispanic professionals. Canadian cities have not been afflicted by this mindset and thus don't have to comeback the way so many American cities do.

Continuing to ignore this fact; to keep lying to ourselves and excuse-make for America indicates we will never honestly address the problem and the negative effects will perpetuate indefinitely.

Offline old edale

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2017, 03:31:44 PM »
Canada doesn't have a "Sunbelt", nor does it have the legacy of slavery and segregation that we have in the states. Those two things alone weaken the comparison between Canadian and US cities.

Also, Windsor is like a tenth of the size of metro Detroit. Yeah, it might be growing faster and stronger than Detroit, but there's not even a comparison to be had between a metro of 4 million and a metro of 400,000.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:14:21 PM by edale »

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #115 on: April 28, 2017, 03:39:08 PM »
^^Good point re: slavery.  Racial issues continue to weaken this country and make us all poorer.

Offline westerninterloper

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #116 on: April 28, 2017, 08:45:51 PM »
Canada doesn't have a "Sunbelt", nor do they have the legacy of slavery and segregation that we have in the states. Those two things alone weaken the comparison between Canadian and US cities. Also, Windsor is like a tenth of the size of metro Detroit. Yeah, it might be growing faster and stronger than Detroit, but it's not even a comparison between a metro of 4 million and a metro of 400,000.

Canada's oppressed people in the north, the First Nations people, but they were far more spatially segregated than the close segregation of the South, then North with Whites and Blacks. Canadian cities also didnt have large numbers of their oppressed folks moving into Great Lakes cities in the 1950s and 1960s, and avoided their White folks fleeing those same cities. More and more I am convinced that Great Lakes cities collapsed because of desegregation, which fueled deindustrialization of central cities. Cities like Toledo and Buffalo were 95%+ white until the early 1950s.

Offline Dougal

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2017, 09:16:36 AM »
More and more I am convinced that Great Lakes cities collapsed because of desegregation, which fueled deindustrialization of central cities.

There is no question that school bussing triggered the white flight that destroyed Cleveland. I'm totally in favor of integration, but not the way it was done. 
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Offline KJP

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2017, 09:29:26 AM »
It should also be noted there is very little violent crime in Canadian cities. Hamilton, which has more people in its city proper than Cleveland, had 15 murders last year which was more than double the previous 10-year average of 7 murders per year (BTW drug overdoses are considered murder by the RCMP). So they convened a task force to investigate the situation.

Cleveland had 136 murders last year (not including the 200+ drug overdose deaths).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:32:14 AM by KJP »
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Offline mrnyc

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Re: Rust Belt Revival Ideas, Predictions & Articles
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2017, 10:57:36 AM »
yeah canada actually has national gun laws. and they are pretty straightforward and canadian-sensible. a long waiting period, mandatory training and most importantly of all a background check.

that would bring usa gun deaths down to nearly canadian levels if it were implemented down here. and it would still allow our people to have "muh guns." 

too bad it will never happen here.