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Author Topic: Gun Rights  (Read 8167 times)

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Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1770 on: November 06, 2017, 07:51:53 PM »
^ Two completely separate issues and here is where they have a point. The Second Amendment and the Courts have determined that people have a right to own and carry firearms subject to certain limitations by government. There is no issue as to the right to own and the only way to stop that is to repeal the 2nd Amendment which is damn near impossible. Now, there is a conversation to be had about what constitutes reasonable gun control within the boundaries of the 2nd amendment, but anything approaching a European style ban of firearms is never going to happen and you should just save your breath because, again the courts have already ruled on the issue and it is settled law.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html

Yes, why would we want lower homicide rates?  LMAO

The logic trotted out by the right and the NRA is a joke and it's time to call it what it is - a disgrace to the American people.  We have a gun murder rate TWENTY FIVE TIMES higher than other high-income, industrialized nations but DAMMIT LET US HAVE OUR GUNS!!

Just the dumbest logic I've ever heard.  Either you care about curbing unnecessary deaths and want people to live or you don't.  Pick one.  The data is out there and these mass shootings are only getting worse.  Our system is broken if you care at all about lowering the gun murder rates.
you do realize that the Texas shooter was stopped by a local citizen with a gun, not by a law enforcement official, thereby probably preventing many more deaths, right?

The reports I saw said that he was shot with his own gun. That's not nearly the same as someone else who had a gun on them shoot him.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1771 on: November 06, 2017, 07:57:44 PM »


None of this is true. We have the "31st Highest" gun violence rate, not "the highest,"



Oh yay, we did better than a bunch of Third-World countries full of political strife, crazy dictators, unbelievable poverty, drug gangs and anarchy. Woo hoo.

Offline matteusleus

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1772 on: November 06, 2017, 08:47:57 PM »
Let's just ban the AR-15 and any other weapon thats only purpose is to maximize the number deaths one can commit in a short period of time.

Let's allow shooting ranges to have them, but they should never leave the grounds. If there is a legitimate sport that someone can participate in that uses an AR-15, require anyone who would like to own one pass extensive tests and renew their license every year or two, proving that they still compete and have a legitimate reason for owning one. Require these guns to be locked up and have fingerprint safety locks. Once they no longer compete competitively, they can do what everyone else does and practice at a range, surrendering their weapon or having it decommissioned beyond repair.

Not a single person legitimately needs an AR-15 for self defense.

Unless of course a criminal does not properly decommission their AR-15 and then comes after you (or a group of people) with it... then I would rather return fire using an AR-15 or a higher powered rifle.  An AR-15 actually isn't even a high powered rifle... they just looks "scary" which is the only reason its called an assault rifle by people who know nothing about guns. 

If you could legitimately confiscate all guns from every person in the United States, then I feel like you could have a gun control debate.  Its fantasy land to think criminals will turn in their guns - realistically you will just be confiscating guns from law abiding citizens.  I feel very strongly people have the right to defend themselves against this. 

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1773 on: November 06, 2017, 09:25:34 PM »
While many people believe that the Second Amendment is sacred and cannot be amended, there is some number of mass shootings that will change a lot of minds.

The original constitution said that some people could own other people.  The US did not have a standing army at that time.  And the same guns used for protection and hunting were used by armies of the time.  The Constitution has been amended as times have changed.  If a "well-regulated" militia means that no regulations can be imposed, at some point the Second Amendment to the Constitution will itself be amended, or repealed.

Yes, most people do not understand what "semiautomatic" means in the operation of a gun.  But they do understand that it doesn't make sense to allow crazy people to buy guns and ammunition and magazines and modifying devices that allow crazy people to fire more than six bullets (sometimes many more) in a matter of seconds. 

 The Second Amendment may be difficult to change, but if the NRA continues to block even reasonable regulations then the movement to repeal and replace the Second Amendment will continue to grow rapidly with every additional mass shooting.  Those who wish to preserve the right to own firearms should be leading the fight for reasonable regulations to avoid having the Second Amendment repealed altogether.

Here is the thing about amendments, there are only 26 of them (give or take) in our near 250 year history. The Constitution by design is extremely difficult to change. The concept of repealing an amendment can take generations. It took nearly the first 80 years of this country plus a civil war to outlaw slavery. It took close to 40 years for prohibition and after quickly seeing what a bad idea that was, still took close to 20 to repeal it. Point being, even in the best of times it is nearly impossible to repeal an amendment, especially anything controversial. If you look at the end of slavery or the repeal of prohibition, or the 19th amendment, by the time they became law, they really were not that controversial and there was wide agreement amongst the legislature and states on these issues.

Now look at the second amendment. A very controversial issue, and in some parts of the country, guns are more important than people's children. Forget about what Congress could do, but do you really think it is at all feasible to get 37 state legislatures to actually agree to repeal the 2nd amendment? Look at any presidential election. There are always more red states than blue states. That alone shows you that you will never get 37 states in the repeal column. Therefore, while yes, it may be possible to actually repeal an amendment. Any talk about that is just a pipe dream and not realistic in our lifetime.

Online E Rocc

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1774 on: November 06, 2017, 11:08:10 PM »
Let's just ban the AR-15 and any other weapon thats only purpose is to maximize the number deaths one can commit in a short period of time.

Let's allow shooting ranges to have them, but they should never leave the grounds. If there is a legitimate sport that someone can participate in that uses an AR-15, require anyone who would like to own one pass extensive tests and renew their license every year or two, proving that they still compete and have a legitimate reason for owning one. Require these guns to be locked up and have fingerprint safety locks. Once they no longer compete competitively, they can do what everyone else does and practice at a range, surrendering their weapon or having it decommissioned beyond repair.

Not a single person legitimately needs an AR-15 for self defense.

Unless of course a criminal does not properly decommission their AR-15 and then comes after you (or a group of people) with it... then I would rather return fire using an AR-15 or a higher powered rifle.  An AR-15 actually isn't even a high powered rifle... they just looks "scary" which is the only reason its called an assault rifle by people who know nothing about guns. 

If you could legitimately confiscate all guns from every person in the United States, then I feel like you could have a gun control debate.  Its fantasy land to think criminals will turn in their guns - realistically you will just be confiscating guns from law abiding citizens.  I feel very strongly people have the right to defend themselves against this. 

When you look at the degree to which the UK government has been abusing individual rights recently, one wonders how emboldening a disarmed population might be.   But perhaps more to the point, they have a very high rate of violent crime there.  It just doesn't involve as many guns.  There's inevitably a "might makes right" mindset that comes about when everyone is unarmed.  While as Heinlein says, an armed society is a more polite society.

Offline AJ93

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1775 on: November 07, 2017, 07:13:30 AM »
^ how many mass shooting sprees have they had in Britain?And what part of our current society would you deem to be 'polite'?

Offline AJ93

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1776 on: November 07, 2017, 07:20:19 AM »

Unless of course a criminal does not properly decommission their AR-15 and then comes after you (or a group of people) with it... then I would rather return fire using an AR-15 or a higher powered rifle.  An AR-15 actually isn't even a high powered rifle... they just looks "scary" which is the only reason its called an assault rifle by people who know nothing about guns. 


Listen, I go back and forth about the 2nd amendment. On days after a bunch of innocent people are mowed down praying in church I'm more open to the idea. But generally I agree with Brutus in that it's a settled issue and trying to repeal it is a fool's errand. I AM all in favor of legislating the sh!t out of owning a gun, making sure that only people that know how to use them ever get to touch one.

That said, what you just typed is the stupidest f@cking argument I've ever heard in advocacy for gun ownership. Yes, it's a personal attack on you. Yes, go ahead and ban me. Stupid needs to be called out. By  your logic, we should all we strapping automatic weapons and blazing bullets around....because safety? Did you even read what you wrote? Can you even imagine how much worse it could have been if some hee haw who had ANOTHER AR-15 decided he was going to be Dirty Harry and stop the guy, and blasted more bullets around?

Seriously, delete your account. I've never read anything more idiotic. This whole board is dumber for your having posted this.

Online E Rocc

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1777 on: November 07, 2017, 08:14:19 AM »

Unless of course a criminal does not properly decommission their AR-15 and then comes after you (or a group of people) with it... then I would rather return fire using an AR-15 or a higher powered rifle.  An AR-15 actually isn't even a high powered rifle... they just looks "scary" which is the only reason its called an assault rifle by people who know nothing about guns. 


Listen, I go back and forth about the 2nd amendment. On days after a bunch of innocent people are mowed down praying in church I'm more open to the idea. But generally I agree with Brutus in that it's a settled issue and trying to repeal it is a fool's errand. I AM all in favor of legislating the sh!t out of owning a gun, making sure that only people that know how to use them ever get to touch one.

That said, what you just typed is the stupidest f@cking argument I've ever heard in advocacy for gun ownership. Yes, it's a personal attack on you. Yes, go ahead and ban me. Stupid needs to be called out. By  your logic, we should all we strapping automatic weapons and blazing bullets around....because safety? Did you even read what you wrote? Can you even imagine how much worse it could have been if some hee haw who had ANOTHER AR-15 decided he was going to be Dirty Harry and stop the guy, and blasted more bullets around?

Seriously, delete your account. I've never read anything more idiotic. This whole board is dumber for your having posted this.

Seriously, if you're going to call someone stupid for a comment about guns, don't claim an AR-15 is an "automatic" weapon. 

"High powered" isn't a well defined definition, but by most interpretations the AR-15 isn't one.    It's definitely not "automatic" though.

Offline matteusleus

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1778 on: November 07, 2017, 08:19:06 AM »

Unless of course a criminal does not properly decommission their AR-15 and then comes after you (or a group of people) with it... then I would rather return fire using an AR-15 or a higher powered rifle.  An AR-15 actually isn't even a high powered rifle... they just looks "scary" which is the only reason its called an assault rifle by people who know nothing about guns. 


Listen, I go back and forth about the 2nd amendment. On days after a bunch of innocent people are mowed down praying in church I'm more open to the idea. But generally I agree with Brutus in that it's a settled issue and trying to repeal it is a fool's errand. I AM all in favor of legislating the sh!t out of owning a gun, making sure that only people that know how to use them ever get to touch one.

That said, what you just typed is the stupidest f@cking argument I've ever heard in advocacy for gun ownership. Yes, it's a personal attack on you. Yes, go ahead and ban me. Stupid needs to be called out. By  your logic, we should all we strapping automatic weapons and blazing bullets around....because safety? Did you even read what you wrote? Can you even imagine how much worse it could have been if some hee haw who had ANOTHER AR-15 decided he was going to be Dirty Harry and stop the guy, and blasted more bullets around?

Seriously, delete your account. I've never read anything more idiotic. This whole board is dumber for your having posted this.

Whoa!  What about civil discord?  I'll try to lay it out for you on how that is done.     
Automatic weapons are illegal as well they should be.  My post was in direct response to the suggestion of banning AR-15's with my point being AR-15's are not much different than a lot of other rifles out there. 

Do you honestly expect that you can legislate only law abiding citizens to own guns?  Even in this Texas example that man should of never owned a gun - we already have laws to prevent that but it did not work! The Air Force made an error after this guy was discharged & did not enter information into a database that would have prevented him from buying an AR-15.  Seems to me we should start enforcing the laws we already have before making new ones. 

Besides, there are countless examples of good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns, including this Texas church example.  These mass shootings occur when the victims are helpless to defend themselves so they occur in places that people don't have guns: schools, concerts, churches, etc.  They only stop shooting when someone else shows up with a gun & returns fire.

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1779 on: November 07, 2017, 08:19:31 AM »
gun nuts love to distract people from the actual argument by using semantics to pretend the other people don't know what they are talking about. We get it. There is proper terminology that should be used, but colloquially, we understand the AR-15 is a weapon designed to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible. Some people call that high powered or automatic. Who cares? Why do we let people own them? Who cares if it's technically automatic or semi-automatic? Who cares if it's legally described as "high powered". Let's just ban the thing and weapons like it. I'll let the lawyers work out the legal jargon.


There is no legitimate reason to own an AR-15.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 08:21:37 AM by ryanlammi »

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1780 on: November 07, 2017, 08:28:24 AM »
When pressed, many gun control advocates will admit they ultimately want to revoke the Second Amendment or at very least wish it never existed (it’s happened a few times in this thread, for example). This is obviously a non-started because any gun control suggestion such a person might make, even if seemingly reasonable, can rightfully be interpreted as a step toward that ultimate goal. This is why groups like the NRA refuse to give any ground - doing so moves us that much closer to only having 9 items on the Bill of Rights.

All due respect, I've seen ZERO ideas, suggestions, proposals from the right.  The talking points go like this generally - 1) it's soon after a tragedy to talk about gun control.  let's have some time for thoughts and prayers.  and then 2) Well guys, look, nothing legislatively would have prevented this tragedy.  3) Repeat.

That's all the NRA nutjobs are pushing.  Throw your hands up in the air because there's nothing we can do.  That's the mantra, basically.  I've seen no one here or anywhere else online who is right of center even bother suggesting anything, ANYTHING to address the gun violence problem in this country.  The only talking points I've seen are, "Well, what laws would have prevented these tragedies?" 

Take the first step - suggest SOMETHING.  If mental health is the big issue for you, then something around a mental health check before buying a gun.  If it's the high rate of fire, how about banning bump stocks.  If it's accessibility to criminals, those on the no-fly list, those on ISIS watch list, etc. how about a 24-48 waiting period to run a background check through those databases.  I mean, there are dozens of possibilities that are merely "small" regulations that could go a long way to preventing unnecessary deaths.

Pick ONE and tell us why you think it'd be a good idea for Congress to enact.

Offline AJ93

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1781 on: November 07, 2017, 08:44:21 AM »

Unless of course a criminal does not properly decommission their AR-15 and then comes after you (or a group of people) with it... then I would rather return fire using an AR-15 or a higher powered rifle.  An AR-15 actually isn't even a high powered rifle... they just looks "scary" which is the only reason its called an assault rifle by people who know nothing about guns. 


Listen, I go back and forth about the 2nd amendment. On days after a bunch of innocent people are mowed down praying in church I'm more open to the idea. But generally I agree with Brutus in that it's a settled issue and trying to repeal it is a fool's errand. I AM all in favor of legislating the sh!t out of owning a gun, making sure that only people that know how to use them ever get to touch one.

That said, what you just typed is the stupidest f@cking argument I've ever heard in advocacy for gun ownership. Yes, it's a personal attack on you. Yes, go ahead and ban me. Stupid needs to be called out. By  your logic, we should all we strapping automatic weapons and blazing bullets around....because safety? Did you even read what you wrote? Can you even imagine how much worse it could have been if some hee haw who had ANOTHER AR-15 decided he was going to be Dirty Harry and stop the guy, and blasted more bullets around?

Seriously, delete your account. I've never read anything more idiotic. This whole board is dumber for your having posted this.

Whoa!  What about civil discord?  I'll try to lay it out for you on how that is done.     
Automatic weapons are illegal as well they should be.  My post was in direct response to the suggestion of banning AR-15's with my point being AR-15's are not much different than a lot of other rifles out there. 

Do you honestly expect that you can legislate only law abiding citizens to own guns?  Even in this Texas example that man should of never owned a gun - we already have laws to prevent that but it did not work! The Air Force made an error after this guy was discharged & did not enter information into a database that would have prevented him from buying an AR-15.  Seems to me we should start enforcing the laws we already have before making new ones. 

Besides, there are countless examples of good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns, including this Texas church example.  These mass shootings occur when the victims are helpless to defend themselves so they occur in places that people don't have guns: schools, concerts, churches, etc.  They only stop shooting when someone else shows up with a gun & returns fire.

I stand by my original statement. If you think that the only answer to people attacking other people with high powered weapons is to have more people with high powered weapons shooting into that same crowd, then I have no hope for any of us. Think about what you're advocating....bullets flying everywhere shot by people that have no business operating a weapon of that caliber. What could possibly go wrong?

And seriously, 'muh AR-15 is just like a rifle'. Sweet Jesus Christ. It's impossible to have a rational discussion about weapons if 'advocates' can't even acknowledge the destructive nature of these types of guns. Ok, I'll double down here. If you think the redeeming value of these guns lies in their ability to prevent OTHER people with those guns from shooting into crowds, you're utterly lost.

Seriously, Post of the Year for dumbest thing I've ever heard. I honestly give up. I'm out.

Offline matteusleus

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1782 on: November 07, 2017, 08:45:15 AM »
gun nuts love to distract people from the actual argument by using semantics to pretend the other people don't know what they are talking about. We get it. There is proper terminology that should be used, but colloquially, we understand the AR-15 is a weapon designed to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible. Some people call that high powered or automatic. Who cares? Why do we let people own them? Who cares if it's technically automatic or semi-automatic? Who cares if it's legally described as "high powered". Let's just ban the thing and weapons like it. I'll let the lawyers work out the legal jargon.


There is no legitimate reason to own an AR-15.

Technically, its not semantics, not at all.  All those words mean very different things.  You cannot have a gun control debate if the other party refuses to learn anything about guns.  I don't want to get off track with technical terms designed to confuse people though.  I still have not seen a response of my larger point of how you could actually confiscate guns from criminals or future mass murderers.  Since its already been shown that these mass shootings go after unarmed, helpless people, how do you confiscate guns (and all weapons like it) without endangering everyone else who can no longer protect themselves?   

Offline KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1783 on: November 07, 2017, 09:09:56 AM »
When you look at the degree to which the UK government has been abusing individual rights recently, one wonders how emboldening a disarmed population might be.   But perhaps more to the point, they have a very high rate of violent crime there.  It just doesn't involve as many guns.  There's inevitably a "might makes right" mindset that comes about when everyone is unarmed.  While as Heinlein says, an armed society is a more polite society.

In my many trips to the UK, I've found the British to be much more polite than Americans. They act as if they belong to a community rather than act like hyper-individualistic Americans who behave as if no else is around them and, when they do acknowledge others, the response is more along the lines of "get the f--- out of my way."

Come to think of it, every other place I've been to in the world, people are more polite than Americans. Frankly, Americans are ignorant a-holes who don't have a clue about the world beyond their borders. And many don't know what's going on in their country anyway, nor do they care based on our pathetic voter turnouts.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline YABO713

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1784 on: November 07, 2017, 09:15:40 AM »
I've always been and will always be an ardent supporter of the 2nd Amendment, but I will no longer support the sale of assault rifles. I understand that this contradicts my position as a textualist and as a member of the Federalist society. But, I doubt our founders intended the Constitution to be a mechanism for apathy in the face of a moral crisis.

We have paraded big Pharma Execs in front of Congress, now it is time to do the same to gun manufacturers. At least drug manufacturers can say that their products have an underlying purpose that is NOT the death of a living creature, guns cannot say the same.

I own three guns. But I honestly cannot look at what is happening in these mass shootings and think the sale of assault rifles is acceptable. I understand that some handguns can hold up to 32 rounds in a clip, but the damage still just is not the same.

Furthermore, I am tired of people on my side of this argument lobbing the "should we ban spoons for making people fat?" counterargument. I understand the logic, but at the end of the day, people would be A LOT skinnier if they were forced to eat a pint of ice cream with chopsticks.

Offline YABO713

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1785 on: November 07, 2017, 09:20:19 AM »
In my many trips to the UK, I've found the British to be much more polite than Americans. They act as if they belong to a community rather than act like hyper-individualistic Americans who behave as if no else is around them and, when they do acknowledge others, the response is more along the lines of "get the f--- out of my way."

Come to think of it, every other place I've been to in the world, people are more polite than Americans. Frankly, Americans are ignorant a-holes who don't have a clue about the world beyond their borders. And many don't know what's going on in their country anyway, nor do they care based on our pathetic voter turnouts.

Love ya, @KJP but I strongly disagree. Latin America and the UK and Ireland, in my experience, are the only places where people are more polite. France, Croatia, Serbia, Austria, and Hungary all left me with poor reactions to the populace of those countries. Especially in Ohio, Americans are just about as polite as anywhere I've ever traveled. Of course, there are outliers to every trend. Having said that, I'd say most people in those countries listed are more polite than people in New York or Los Angeles.

Offline KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1786 on: November 07, 2017, 09:31:03 AM »
I don't want to force people to do anything. Public policy can encourage people to change their ways. While all the TV commercials showing the hazards of smoking are compelling, one of the biggest reasons why I stopped is because it got so expensive with all the taxes and because you couldn't do it in very many places -- namely in a bar. I loved drinking a beer while having a smoke. When I started smoking in the mid-80s, I could buy a pack of cigarettes for less than a dollar. Today, it costs $7 to $12. And you can't smoke them in very many places. So why bother?

Mass shootings require a large amount of ammunition, not just a semi-automatic weapon. A bullet costs anywhere from 5 cents to 50 cents each to make, and retails for up to 80 cents each. Imagine if we taxed bullets at 1,000 percent of their sale price.

Yep, I'd ban assault rifles as well. While banning the sale of them would take effect immediately, possession of them wouldn't become illegal until after a month or so they could be part of a gun buy-back program. No questions asked.

And yes, gun buy-back programs do work as long as the market for new guns is discouraged. Tax the guns. Tax the ammunition. Dry up the market for guns. Over years and decades, there will be fewer guns in circulation. It will take time as guns wear out or aren't maintained and no longer work. Soon it would be unaffordable to replace them.
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Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1787 on: November 07, 2017, 09:31:41 AM »
When pressed, many gun control advocates will admit they ultimately want to revoke the Second Amendment or at very least wish it never existed (it’s happened a few times in this thread, for example). This is obviously a non-started because any gun control suggestion such a person might make, even if seemingly reasonable, can rightfully be interpreted as a step toward that ultimate goal. This is why groups like the NRA refuse to give any ground - doing so moves us that much closer to only having 9 items on the Bill of Rights.

All due respect, I've seen ZERO ideas, suggestions, proposals from the right.  The talking points go like this generally - 1) it's soon after a tragedy to talk about gun control.  let's have some time for thoughts and prayers.  and then 2) Well guys, look, nothing legislatively would have prevented this tragedy.  3) Repeat.

That's all the NRA nutjobs are pushing.  Throw your hands up in the air because there's nothing we can do.  That's the mantra, basically.  I've seen no one here or anywhere else online who is right of center even bother suggesting anything, ANYTHING to address the gun violence problem in this country.  The only talking points I've seen are, "Well, what laws would have prevented these tragedies?" 

Take the first step - suggest SOMETHING.  If mental health is the big issue for you, then something around a mental health check before buying a gun.  If it's the high rate of fire, how about banning bump stocks.  If it's accessibility to criminals, those on the no-fly list, those on ISIS watch list, etc. how about a 24-48 waiting period to run a background check through those databases.  I mean, there are dozens of possibilities that are merely "small" regulations that could go a long way to preventing unnecessary deaths.

Pick ONE and tell us why you think it'd be a good idea for Congress to enact.

I think this is a good step at creating a dialogue that needs to happen.

I think the biggest reason why you do not get proposals from the 2nd amendment folks is because gun ownership is seen as an individual right, like breathing, and that the problem is not the gun but rather the person's evil intent in using it.

On the left, there is often a thought that guns are bad regardless of who has them and that ideally, even the police or military would not need guns. Looking at other societies with no gun crimes, we would be better off without gun violence. What is good for society as a whole is what is best and individual liberty be damned.

The problem is that both sides can't understand the other's starting point which is why people talk over each other on this issue and there is such a stalemate.
When you are arguing parallel points to issues, you cant find common ground because they never intersect.

Offline YABO713

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1788 on: November 07, 2017, 09:35:28 AM »
Yep, I'd ban assault rifles as well. While banning the sale of them would take effect immediately, possession of them wouldn't become illegal until after a month or so they could be part of a gun buy-back program. No questions asked.

And yes, gun buy-back programs do work as long as the market for new guns is discouraged. Tax the guns. Tax the ammunition. Dry up the market for guns. Over years and decades, there will be fewer guns in circulation. It will take time as guns wear out or aren't maintained and no longer work. Soon it would be unaffordable to replace them.

I actually wouldn't support a gun buy-back program. I would force all assault rifle owners to register them, as we do with automobiles - ya know, so people don't run pedestrians over then ditch the car. And then I would make all assault rifles non-transferable except through probate. As you noted, make the price of bullets insane as well.

The real issue we will face in the next 5-10 years is the printing of 3D guns. Legislation will have to focus on regulating the possession, not just the sale.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1789 on: November 07, 2017, 09:43:11 AM »
When pressed, many gun control advocates will admit they ultimately want to revoke the Second Amendment or at very least wish it never existed (it’s happened a few times in this thread, for example). This is obviously a non-started because any gun control suggestion such a person might make, even if seemingly reasonable, can rightfully be interpreted as a step toward that ultimate goal. This is why groups like the NRA refuse to give any ground - doing so moves us that much closer to only having 9 items on the Bill of Rights.

All due respect, I've seen ZERO ideas, suggestions, proposals from the right.  The talking points go like this generally - 1) it's soon after a tragedy to talk about gun control.  let's have some time for thoughts and prayers.  and then 2) Well guys, look, nothing legislatively would have prevented this tragedy.  3) Repeat.

That's all the NRA nutjobs are pushing.  Throw your hands up in the air because there's nothing we can do.  That's the mantra, basically.  I've seen no one here or anywhere else online who is right of center even bother suggesting anything, ANYTHING to address the gun violence problem in this country.  The only talking points I've seen are, "Well, what laws would have prevented these tragedies?" 

Take the first step - suggest SOMETHING.  If mental health is the big issue for you, then something around a mental health check before buying a gun.  If it's the high rate of fire, how about banning bump stocks.  If it's accessibility to criminals, those on the no-fly list, those on ISIS watch list, etc. how about a 24-48 waiting period to run a background check through those databases.  I mean, there are dozens of possibilities that are merely "small" regulations that could go a long way to preventing unnecessary deaths.

Pick ONE and tell us why you think it'd be a good idea for Congress to enact.

I think this is a good step at creating a dialogue that needs to happen.

I think the biggest reason why you do not get proposals from the 2nd amendment folks is because gun ownership is seen as an individual right, like breathing, and that the problem is not the gun but rather the person's evil intent in using it.

If this is true, then NRA folks are tacitly admitting that the U.S. just has the worst people of the modern world.  If it's more aimed at the mental health of U.S. citizens, then why don't they advocate for ANYTHING remotely related to mental health?

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1790 on: November 07, 2017, 09:46:02 AM »
Oh man, wouldn't it be a cruel irony for all of those single-issue voters if Trump "took their guns"? When someone decides to become a single-issue voter they have given the politicians a license to manipulate the crap out of them on other issues and even the single-issue itself.

"Do as we say or no guns."

Offline KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1791 on: November 07, 2017, 09:48:32 AM »
Love ya, @KJP but I strongly disagree. Latin America and the UK and Ireland, in my experience, are the only places where people are more polite. France, Croatia, Serbia, Austria, and Hungary all left me with poor reactions to the populace of those countries. Especially in Ohio, Americans are just about as polite as anywhere I've ever traveled. Of course, there are outliers to every trend. Having said that, I'd say most people in those countries listed are more polite than people in New York or Los Angeles.

I've never had any problems with the French or Germans (never been to Austria, Hungary, et al). While overseas, I didn't advertise that I was American and tried to learn some of their languages before visiting so that I could show that I was at least trying to make an effort to care about their cultures and customs. I've seen too many Americans who brashly act like they belong in a foreign country (France especially) without making any attempt to fit in. So of course that rubs them the wrong way. In my trips to Eastern Europe, my attempts at nationalistic inhibition weren't enough. I was pegged as an American right away because I looked up while I walked and smiled at other people on the street.

Anyway....

My prior comments and ideas for managing America's weaponized excesses are meaningless until we as a nation take back our elected representatives from the well-moneyed special interest bullies. There's simply too much campaign money out there for our nation to effectively govern itself as a government "for the people." The campaign money has to be dried up first with shorter campaign seasons and reduced, hard caps on the amounts of money that can raised and expended by and for candidates and issues within each abbreviated campaign season. This may have to be done as a citizens' initiative petition to keep it from being watered down by those in the status quo who like things just the way they are.

Then conservatives, liberals, and the majority in between can have a respectful, informed, issues-based debate again on the challenges facing our once great nation.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:52:25 AM by KJP »
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1792 on: November 07, 2017, 09:50:28 AM »
When pressed, many gun control advocates will admit they ultimately want to revoke the Second Amendment or at very least wish it never existed (it’s happened a few times in this thread, for example). This is obviously a non-started because any gun control suggestion such a person might make, even if seemingly reasonable, can rightfully be interpreted as a step toward that ultimate goal. This is why groups like the NRA refuse to give any ground - doing so moves us that much closer to only having 9 items on the Bill of Rights.

All due respect, I've seen ZERO ideas, suggestions, proposals from the right.  The talking points go like this generally - 1) it's soon after a tragedy to talk about gun control.  let's have some time for thoughts and prayers.  and then 2) Well guys, look, nothing legislatively would have prevented this tragedy.  3) Repeat.

That's all the NRA nutjobs are pushing.  Throw your hands up in the air because there's nothing we can do.  That's the mantra, basically.  I've seen no one here or anywhere else online who is right of center even bother suggesting anything, ANYTHING to address the gun violence problem in this country.  The only talking points I've seen are, "Well, what laws would have prevented these tragedies?" 

Take the first step - suggest SOMETHING.  If mental health is the big issue for you, then something around a mental health check before buying a gun.  If it's the high rate of fire, how about banning bump stocks.  If it's accessibility to criminals, those on the no-fly list, those on ISIS watch list, etc. how about a 24-48 waiting period to run a background check through those databases.  I mean, there are dozens of possibilities that are merely "small" regulations that could go a long way to preventing unnecessary deaths.

Pick ONE and tell us why you think it'd be a good idea for Congress to enact.

I think this is a good step at creating a dialogue that needs to happen.

I think the biggest reason why you do not get proposals from the 2nd amendment folks is because gun ownership is seen as an individual right, like breathing, and that the problem is not the gun but rather the person's evil intent in using it.

If this is true, then NRA folks are tacitly admitting that the U.S. just has the worst people of the modern world.  If it's more aimed at the mental health of U.S. citizens, then why don't they advocate for ANYTHING remotely related to mental health?

I think you would have movement on those issues if both sides spoke on the same plane instead of starting at a point where no party's argument can intersect.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1793 on: November 07, 2017, 10:26:56 AM »
When pressed, many gun control advocates will admit they ultimately want to revoke the Second Amendment or at very least wish it never existed (it’s happened a few times in this thread, for example). This is obviously a non-started because any gun control suggestion such a person might make, even if seemingly reasonable, can rightfully be interpreted as a step toward that ultimate goal. This is why groups like the NRA refuse to give any ground - doing so moves us that much closer to only having 9 items on the Bill of Rights.

All due respect, I've seen ZERO ideas, suggestions, proposals from the right.  The talking points go like this generally - 1) it's soon after a tragedy to talk about gun control.  let's have some time for thoughts and prayers.  and then 2) Well guys, look, nothing legislatively would have prevented this tragedy.  3) Repeat.

I've seen no one here or anywhere else online who is right of center even bother suggesting anything, ANYTHING to address the gun violence problem in this country.  The only talking points I've seen are, "Well, what laws would have prevented these tragedies?" 

Take the first step - suggest SOMETHING.  If mental health is the big issue for you, then something around a mental health check before buying a gun.  If it's the high rate of fire, how about banning bump stocks.  If it's accessibility to criminals, those on the no-fly list, those on ISIS watch list, etc. how about a 24-48 waiting period to run a background check through those databases.  I mean, there are dozens of possibilities that are merely "small" regulations that could go a long way to preventing unnecessary deaths.

Pick ONE and tell us why you think it'd be a good idea for Congress to enact.

Well one argument on the right could be that the perpetrator in this latest incident should have been in jail for that domestic violence charge.

There needs to be a better way to keep violent lunatics from the rest of society.

Online plinth857

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1794 on: November 07, 2017, 10:35:39 AM »
The campaign money has to be dried up first with shorter campaign seasons and reduced, hard caps on the amounts of money that can raised and expended by and for candidates and issues within each abbreviated campaign season.

Another thing that saddens me is all of the money that is spent on something that is of little use to anyone.  I know it is the way of the world, but imagine if campaign money was diverted towards infrastructure, manufacturing, education, research or other pursuits that may be of better use to society as a whole.

Offline Ram23

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1795 on: November 07, 2017, 10:44:03 AM »
Well one argument on the right could be that the perpetrator in this latest incident should have been in jail for that domestic violence charge.

There needs to be a better way to keep violent lunatics from the rest of society.

Keeping guns out of the hands of people who should not legally be allowed to own them is an area of concern of mine. I don't think criminal charges are stiff enough. Nearly every time there's a homicide arrest in Cincinnati, the suspect as a lengthy criminal record and should not legally have been allowed to possess a gun, or they're 18-20 and should not have been in possession of a handgun. It's homicides committed during armed robberies, domestic disputes, drug crimes, etc. that should be the focus, not assault rifles, and not mass shootings. Despite the uneven news coverage, mass shootings and assault rifles result in a minuscule percentage of gun crimes committed in this country - and most of the proposed legislative changes would likely make them worse, not better.

Offline GCrites80s

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1796 on: November 07, 2017, 10:48:44 AM »
The campaign money has to be dried up first with shorter campaign seasons and reduced, hard caps on the amounts of money that can raised and expended by and for candidates and issues within each abbreviated campaign season.

Another thing that saddens me is all of the money that is spent on something that is of little use to anyone.  I know it is the way of the world, but imagine if campaign money was diverted towards infrastructure, manufacturing, education, research or other pursuits that may be of better use to society as a whole.

No help from the media regarding that one. Political commercials pay better than pill, reverse mortgage and class-action lawsuit ones certain times of year.

Offline KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1797 on: November 07, 2017, 11:24:08 AM »
WHEN YOU'VE COMPLETELY LOST YOUR MIND....

https://t.co/YnFkfZdtGN https://t.co/3iNBkBGXeh
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline KJP

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1798 on: November 07, 2017, 12:50:28 PM »
We have 4.4% of the world’s population.

And we have 42% of the guns on the planet.

Then this chart should not be surprising...
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline DarkandStormy

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Re: Gun Rights
« Reply #1799 on: November 07, 2017, 01:27:21 PM »
We have 4.4% of the world’s population.

And we have 42% of the guns on the planet.

Then this chart should not be surprising...
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

The full article is really good.  It does a good job of explaining why certain excuses aren't valid - crime rate is high in America (false), mental illness rates are high in America (false), etc.

The gun death problem in this nation is linked to a near unlimited access to guns.  Plain and simple.  If you care about reducing deaths by gun, then you must be for making it harder to buy guns and ammo.  Those are the facts borne out in the NYT piece and you cannot dispute them.