PLEASE READ!!!

***** ALL users will have to request a password reset BEFORE you will be able to log into the forum. See the thread in the forum issues section for further instructions. If you have issues with this, email us at admin@urbanohio.com. *****

Author Topic: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)  (Read 8428 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46801
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #540 on: June 23, 2017, 08:44:34 AM »
I'm hearing such conflicting things about this. I've heard there was some kind of huge mess involving permits and property ownership. I hope that's wrong though.

Makes it difficult to explain the construction workers laboring there every day. You can't see them unless you get up high, such as I did when I went to the top level of the UH parking deck across Mayfield and took photos. I posted one of them above.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline PoshSteve

  • Great American Tower 665'
  • ***
  • Posts: 715
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #541 on: June 23, 2017, 03:08:25 PM »
Midwest Development Partners is leading this project now - no longer Coral. They took over from Coral when Centric replaced Intesa. Coral still has an ownership stake though, along with Panzica, but just how involved are they with the construction now?

Based on all their false promises before, I don't really believe anything I hear from Coral. KJP's photos of construction progress and workers seem like more trustworthy sources.

Offline PoshSteve

  • Great American Tower 665'
  • ***
  • Posts: 715
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #542 on: July 07, 2017, 05:20:47 PM »
And I can confirm from my own eyes yesterday (around 1:30pm) this whole site was swarming with construction workers and heavy machinery in motion. I personally feel this one is going up pretty quickly, considering how large it is and that its been all steel and concrete thus far (unlike Detroit/25 which is moving much faster, but is wood above the first floor).

Offline Clefan98

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #543 on: July 25, 2017, 10:14:53 AM »
 Panzica Construction‏ @panzicaconst 42m42 minutes ago

Team Panzica taking in the view from 3rd floor at Centric! #ClevelandRising @inthecircle #LittleItaly

https://twitter.com/panzicaconst/status/889854886833270784

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46801
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #544 on: September 04, 2017, 02:18:25 PM »
Two from the past week, as seen from the Little Italy-University Circle Red Line station....



"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline freethink

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2073

Offline PIB Guy

  • Dirt Lot 0'
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #546 on: September 13, 2017, 07:34:47 AM »
The Picture that KJP posted from Panzica's Twitter shows that this entire building is post-tensioned concrete.  Think Parking garage design standards.  I'm really surprised by that, but happy to see they went with that type of design.  I think back to when Stonebridge was built with all light gauge steel. Much different construction standard here. 

Offline w28th

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2228
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #547 on: September 13, 2017, 08:06:10 AM »
The 1st floor is concrete, but the upper levels are certainly wood construction.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46801
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #548 on: September 13, 2017, 08:49:56 AM »
The Picture that KJP posted from Panzica's Twitter shows that this entire building is post-tensioned concrete.  Think Parking garage design standards.  I'm really surprised by that, but happy to see they went with that type of design.  I think back to when Stonebridge was built with all light gauge steel. Much different construction standard here. 

I didn't post that.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline clvlndr

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #549 on: September 13, 2017, 09:28:14 AM »
The 1st floor is concrete, but the upper levels are certainly wood construction.

I'm no construction expert, by any means, but this seems to be a consistent method of framing living spaces in multi-unit residential buildings.  Euclid 116, which recently opened their student apts around the corner, and the Van Aken Center residences going up, are using a similar method.  The outer shell of these buildings, however, are sheathed in concrete, steel and often brick.

Offline rockitect

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 69
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #550 on: September 14, 2017, 07:04:19 AM »
The 1st floor is concrete, but the upper levels are certainly wood construction.

I'm no construction expert, by any means, but this seems to be a consistent method of framing living spaces in multi-unit residential buildings.  Euclid 116, which recently opened their student apts around the corner, and the Van Aken Center residences going up, are using a similar method.  The outer shell of these buildings, however, are sheathed in concrete, steel and often brick.

The building is what is called "5 over 2", which means 5 stories of wood framing over a 2 story concrete "podium". This project went back and forth a million times (even back to when it Intesa) about whether it should be steel, concrete, or wood (or a 100 hybrids of the 3). Its more typical right now to see 4 over 1 - which is what the most recent phase at Crocker and Snavely's Ohio City project are. Some voodoo magic was able to pulled here to make 5 over 2 work, which is a big piece of what allowed this project to finally get built.

Offline PIB Guy

  • Dirt Lot 0'
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #551 on: September 14, 2017, 07:43:24 AM »
The 1st floor is concrete, but the upper levels are certainly wood construction.
Clefans photo above taken from the third floor is clearly prepped for a concrete slab on deck.  You can clearly see PT cables draped across the deck along with horizontal #4 rebar and rebar dowels.  The outer walls may be wood, but for some reason the interior slabs are clearly concrete.  Therefore, there must me concrete columns extending up through the structure to support the decks.  Can't tell from any of the photos.  But in essence, its essentially a parking garage encompassed with a wood exterior. 

Offline jmicha

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3887
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #552 on: September 14, 2017, 07:58:25 AM »
So basically this is how a 5+2 building works. The height limit for wood framed construction is 5 floors. But you can get away with a taller building by using Type 1A construction as a podium for the 5 wood floors to sit on.

Even still, there's a height limit with this hybrid construction (I believe it's 85' off the top of my head) which essentially means that unless you're designing uncomfortably low ceilings you'll end up with a 2 story concrete podium with 5 wood framed floors above.

The height limit used to limit you to the equivalent of 6 stories which is why for a long time you saw a ton of 5+1 buildings going up. If you're ever in, say, Denver or Dallas take a look at all the new lowrise buildings. They're almost all 6 floors for this reason. Now they're all 7 stories because of the height limit changes within the most recent version of the International Building Code.

In this setup the floor of the 3rd floor would be concrete but everything above that plane is wood. If that photo is indeed taken from the 3rd floor then there's nothing out of the ordinary going on.

Offline cle

  • Dirt Lot 0'
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #553 on: September 14, 2017, 08:12:30 AM »
It is definitely 5 floors of wood over 2 floors of concrete. I did some investigating after some of the first photos of wood framing were posted. Standing on the third floor, they would be standing on the top of the concrete podium, so yes the floor of the third floor (or the ceiling of the second floor) would be concrete. They need a strong floor made out of concrete (or other projects may use steel) to build five floors of wood on top. There are no concrete decks above that floor. The "voodoo magic" that rockitect mentions was just a variance granted by the City based on a more recent version of the International Building Code (I don't recall which one).

Offline down4cle

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4629
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #554 on: September 14, 2017, 08:14:13 AM »
I appreciate learning all of this stuff about construction techniques.  I was always under the impression that 4 stories was the maximum for stick construction.  I learn something new all the time.

Offline mrnyc

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 13012
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #555 on: September 14, 2017, 08:37:13 AM »
I appreciate learning all of this stuff about construction techniques.  I was always under the impression that 4 stories was the maximum for stick construction.  I learn something new all the time.

yeah same here. also you start to see things lately about new experimental wood apt towers too. the modern use of wood in apt building construction is fascinating and it really seems to be a hot topic these days. check this out -- its about tall timber towers:

https://www.curbed.com/maps/tall-timber-construction-projects-in-the-works


Offline jmicha

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3887
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #556 on: September 14, 2017, 09:03:31 AM »
The way these 5+whatever buildings work is essentially treating them like two separate buildings, one on top of the other. The concrete podium is fully fire separated from the wood building above. It's an interesting method and one that unfortunately gets a bad reputation because so many of the 5+1 and 5+2 buildings look exactly the same. It's not an inherently bad form of construction but it's super easy to create the typical yuppy box with this method so that's what it's associated with.

Thankfully, as @mrnyc  pointed out, wood construction is becoming far more interesting these days. There's a visionary proposal out there for a supertall (300m+) wooden tower at the Barbican in London. Not going to actually happen, but a cool study in the use of heavy timber construction.

https://www.dezeen.com/2016/04/08/plp-architecture-cambridge-university-london-first-wooden-skyscraper-barbican/

Offline clvlndr

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #557 on: September 14, 2017, 09:12:03 AM »
The 1st floor is concrete, but the upper levels are certainly wood construction.

I'm no construction expert, by any means, but this seems to be a consistent method of framing living spaces in multi-unit residential buildings.  Euclid 116, which recently opened their student apts around the corner, and the Van Aken Center residences going up, are using a similar method.  The outer shell of these buildings, however, are sheathed in concrete, steel and often brick.

The building is what is called "5 over 2", which means 5 stories of wood framing over a 2 story concrete "podium". This project went back and forth a million times (even back to when it Intesa) about whether it should be steel, concrete, or wood (or a 100 hybrids of the 3). Its more typical right now to see 4 over 1 - which is what the most recent phase at Crocker and Snavely's Ohio City project are. Some voodoo magic was able to pulled here to make 5 over 2 work, which is a big piece of what allowed this project to finally get built.

Good stuff, and thanks for that ... Does Centric's compromise in any way compromise the integrity of the finished building?

Offline clvlndr

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #558 on: September 14, 2017, 09:13:43 AM »
I appreciate learning all of this stuff about construction techniques.  I was always under the impression that 4 stories was the maximum for stick construction.  I learn something new all the time.

yeah same here. also you start to see things lately about new experimental wood apt towers too. the modern use of wood in apt building construction is fascinating and it really seems to be a hot topic these days. check this out -- its about tall timber towers:

https://www.curbed.com/maps/tall-timber-construction-projects-in-the-works



Well, I guess this tends to answer my Q, that it doesn't... Interesting.... And I seriously doubt the City would certify construction if it did.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 09:14:58 AM by clvlndr »

Offline cle

  • Dirt Lot 0'
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #559 on: September 14, 2017, 10:21:59 AM »
From what I understand, the City's current code only allows 4 over 1, but the code is outdated as it is based on the 2012 International Building Code. The newer International Building Code allows 5 over 2, so the City will allow it with a variance and will eventually update their own code.

Offline rockitect

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 69
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #560 on: September 16, 2017, 12:50:11 PM »
The 1st floor is concrete, but the upper levels are certainly wood construction.


I'm no construction expert, by any means, but this seems to be a consistent method of framing living spaces in multi-unit residential buildings.  Euclid 116, which recently opened their student apts around the corner, and the Van Aken Center residences going up, are using a similar method.  The outer shell of these buildings, however, are sheathed in concrete, steel and often brick.

The building is what is called "5 over 2", which means 5 stories of wood framing over a 2 story concrete "podium". This project went back and forth a million times (even back to when it Intesa) about whether it should be steel, concrete, or wood (or a 100 hybrids of the 3). Its more typical right now to see 4 over 1 - which is what the most recent phase at Crocker and Snavely's Ohio City project are. Some voodoo magic was able to pulled here to make 5 over 2 work, which is a big piece of what allowed this project to finally get built.

Good stuff, and thanks for that ... Does Centric's compromise in any way compromise the integrity of the finished building?

It is allowed per code. That said, its pretty hotly debated. For more reading:

http://www.structuremag.org/?p=10934
https://www.bisnow.com/washington-dc/news/multifamily/wood-frame-apartments-gaining-popularity-with-developers-despite-fire-risk-74533
https://urbanland.uli.org/economy-markets-trends/increased-use-wood-reduced-parking-may-reduce-multifamily-construction-costs/
https://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/8/24/12617218/sandy-springs-bans-wood-construction-code
https://ggwash.org/view/34118/a-hidden-height-limit-holds-back-affordable-mid-rise-construction-in-dc
http://www.denverpost.com/2015/04/03/denver-is-a-great-city-so-why-the-bad-buildings/

Offline rockitect

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 69
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #561 on: September 16, 2017, 01:01:03 PM »
From what I understand, the City's current code only allows 4 over 1, but the code is outdated as it is based on the 2012 International Building Code. The newer International Building Code allows 5 over 2, so the City will allow it with a variance and will eventually update their own code.

You are close and I believe correct about the IBC codes. That said, there is an important distinction that is often confused. Cities/municipalities have zoning codes. But for a few exceptions (NYC, Chicago), building codes are by the states. If you are building in Cleveland, Youngstown, Lima, or Middlefield - the same Ohio Building Code applies. But the state building codes are generally administered (as in construction documents are reviewed to receive a building permit) by local municipal building departments. If a project receives an adjudication letter (meaning plans were NOT approved by the building plans reviewer), then that can be appealed. In a larger city like Cleveland, we have a local board that reviews appeals. In smaller suburban and rural communities, you go to Columbus to the statewide board to make your appeal.

The exceptions where a building permit is provided by the state are projects for publicly funded institutions (I.E. Kent State University) or quasi-governmental organizations (I.E. Cleveland Metroparks. Projects on their properties are reviewed by the state, not the town or city they are located within.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 01:02:05 PM by rockitect »

Offline clvlndr

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #562 on: September 16, 2017, 04:02:50 PM »
So rockitect, you're saying that had not Panzica-Coral-Midwest Partners group been forced to go with anything but 5-over-2 concrete + 'stick' construction, Centric would likely be affordable and not being built at this moment ... or ever... Just from skimming the quality articles you posted, the main danger from wood-burning fire comes during the construction phase, but that once sprinkler and smoke detector systems are installed, these buildings are safe.  The articles note these wood/stick configurations allow for more density -- there will be 272 apt units in Centric.. However one comment in one of the articles questioned the long-term viability of these multi-unit wood constructions in 25-30 years.  Do you have any thoughts on this or have there been studies as to how to shore up and/or stabilize these structures over time?

Offline rockitect

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 69
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #563 on: September 19, 2017, 10:14:59 PM »
So rockitect, you're saying that had not Panzica-Coral-Midwest Partners group been forced to go with anything but 5-over-2 concrete + 'stick' construction, Centric would likely be affordable and not being built at this moment ... or ever... Just from skimming the quality articles you posted, the main danger from wood-burning fire comes during the construction phase, but that once sprinkler and smoke detector systems are installed, these buildings are safe.  The articles note these wood/stick configurations allow for more density -- there will be 272 apt units in Centric.. However one comment in one of the articles questioned the long-term viability of these multi-unit wood constructions in 25-30 years.  Do you have any thoughts on this or have there been studies as to how to shore up and/or stabilize these structures over time?

I do not know enough to say "never" if it wouldn't have gone this route, but it was a big factor.

I think you pretty much have the idea regarding fire safety. Only time will tell regarding how "durable" this buildings end up being. There are plenty of wood framing wood houses 100s of years old... there are also a lot of wood houses only a few years old that are falling apart. Not familiar with any studies. This is a newer construction technique. The challenge with knowledge is that a lot of the loosing of codes allowing this construction technique is driven by well-funded advocacy by the wood construction industry - and studies touting it as safe are funded by the industry. On the same token, studies citing concern about stick over podium wood construction... have turned out to have been funded by steel/concrete industry interests.

One additional thing worth adding is that the construction type of Centric and other projects is a lot different from developments in using heavy timber as the main structural framing for high-rise construction. A friend of mine in Portland was involved in the first timber high-rise in the US: https://www.bdcnetwork.com/TimberHiRisePortland & https://archpaper.com/2017/06/framework-portland-timber-tower/#gallery-0-slide-0
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 10:16:45 PM by rockitect »

Offline MayDay

  • Administrator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 10327
    • Cleveland Skyscrapers
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #564 on: November 03, 2017, 12:20:35 PM »
Didn't realize just how big this project is - two pics from this week.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46801
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #565 on: November 03, 2017, 12:33:11 PM »
Yep, it's big. The parking deck goes in the building's "crotch" visible in the second photo.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline mu2010

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1136
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #566 on: December 20, 2017, 05:22:18 PM »
Just rode by on the #9, I think the part along Mayfield is topped out, one or two stories higher than the most recent photos posted. Looks great!

Offline seicer

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 10692
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #567 on: December 20, 2017, 06:58:45 PM »
Holy moly. That's huge.

Offline FerrariEnzo

  • Key Tower 947'
  • ****
  • Posts: 832
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #568 on: December 21, 2017, 09:27:35 AM »
Gosh this is so amazing. 

Offline Mendo

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
Re: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)
« Reply #569 on: February 08, 2018, 10:48:52 PM »
A blurb about Centric:

https://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/features/real_estate/centric-apartments-target-younger-renters/article_5b1b3c16-076e-11e8-a91b-5304de36b9ac.html#tncms-source=article-nav-next

Quote
Centric Apartments target younger renters

Centric Apartments, the apartment complex being built in the University Circle area of Cleveland at 11601 Mayfield Road, will have 272 units for rent and is on track to be ready for occupancy Aug. 1, said Steve Rubin, a partner at Midwest Development Partners in Cleveland.

“We have about 60 percent (of the 272 units) as one-bedroom apartments, about 20 percent are two-bedroom units and the rest are studio apartments,” Rubin said. “There’s some variance in size, these aren’t stamped out cookie-cutter units.”

Rubin said Midwest Development Partners will open a pre-leasing office on the premises March 1, with a studio and one-bedroom unit open for viewing at that time for prospective renters. Rubin said all 272 units are rentals and not available for purchase, with rent scheduled to open at about $2.25 per square foot. Studio apartments will be in the 500 to 550 square-foot range, one bedroom units in the range of 850 to 900 square feet and two bedroom units will be in the 1,000 to 1,050 square-foot range. Rent for a 500-square foot studio apartment would be about $1,125 per month.
...