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Author Topic: Cleveland: University Circle: Centric Development (formerly Intesa)  (Read 5227 times)

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Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #120 on: March 17, 2012, 11:14:56 AM »
In fairness to Coral, I don't think they ever "promised" a condo development in the lot behind the CVS; I think they just mentioned it as a possibility (and showed a crude rendering) to demonstrate that they were interested in being ambitious and creative.  I believe their acquisition of the square was through a city-controlled process (the city owned a lot of the debt from the earlier redevelopment), so salesmanship was expected.  Even then, I didn't really expect to see that condo project ever happen...

Will be interesting to see Coral's plans for the towers evolve.  No doubt they'll be watching Uptown to see how leasing progresses for those units, and negotiations with possible office tenants and CIA will shape a lot of it too.  Given MRN's success finding retail tenants, I'm hopeful that part will be a piece of cake for Coral.

I dont recall that either and they never really had national chains.  the few they that leased space were crappy!

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #121 on: April 23, 2012, 07:34:36 AM »
Some new graphics and renderings from Bialosky.....



Does the architect know that Mayfield goes "under" the tracks? Or does this show what would be part of the underside, including trees under the bridges?  :|






Interesting "slice" image. The slice is north-south. The view is to the southwest....


« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 07:37:43 AM by KJP »
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Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #122 on: April 23, 2012, 04:22:37 PM »
Man would that be sweet.  X our fingers that the complex financing package falls into place.

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #123 on: April 23, 2012, 04:48:06 PM »
Man would that be sweet.  X our fingers that the complex financing package falls into place.

I am shocked it took nine hours for someone to comment on the graphics!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 04:48:43 PM by KJP »
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #124 on: April 23, 2012, 04:53:01 PM »
Good find. Thanks for posting!

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #125 on: April 23, 2012, 05:20:31 PM »
Does anybody know if this would be Coral's most singularly significant project (in terms of cost) or have they tackled bigger developments in the past?

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #126 on: April 23, 2012, 06:06:48 PM »
No, it's their biggest.  By quite a bit, but keep in mind they are partnering with Panzica also.  Still going to justify that big of an investment, I predict a scaled back version

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #127 on: April 23, 2012, 06:26:54 PM »
Whoa... Massive!

Offline biker16

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2012, 08:02:12 PM »
why so much parking?

this is my only complaint

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2012, 08:03:48 PM »
why so much parking?

this is my only complaint

Probably to make the bankers happy.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2012, 08:40:19 PM »
I hope they figure out something better for that south lot than just a straight up parking garage.  And for chrissakes, enough with the skybridges.  Every freakin' development in this city in the last couple years has to throw in a skybridge?

Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2012, 08:53:39 PM »
I hope this project happens.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2012, 09:15:39 PM »
I hope they figure out something better for that south lot than just a straight up parking garage.  And for chrissakes, enough with the skybridges.  Every freakin' development in this city in the last couple years has to throw in a skybridge?

Agree on everything

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2012, 10:40:40 PM »
I hope they figure out something better for that south lot than just a straight up parking garage.  And for chrissakes, enough with the skybridges.  Every freakin' development in this city in the last couple years has to throw in a skybridge?

Some retail frontage on Mayfield would be nice. If they building this as a straight up parking garage with a grassy strip separating its pedestrian-inaccessible facade from Mayfield's sidewalk, I'm going to bring a bunch of wood, nails and paint out there and put up a fake Rock Ridge along that sidewalk!

"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #134 on: April 24, 2012, 06:41:14 AM »
why so much parking?

this is my only complaint

Probably to make the bankers happy.

Banks don't care about parking, tenants do.  Try and build an apartment building or office that doesn't offer 1 space per apartment or 1 space per employee and see how well it gets leased.  I don't care if there is a transit stop right out front, this is Cleveland, not Chicago.  That parking is also required to produce revenue to fund the project.

As far as the project getting built, current estimates for the project as shown in renderings was right around $100million.  Current lending environment are maybe 60% loan to value.  Add in another 10-20% of equity investment and it's still well short....  take out a component of parking and you come up even shorter on financing.  Additional financing challenges stem from fact that UCI owns the land and is retaining it, just leasing it for the project.  So from a lender's standpoint, if the project goes belly up, they cannot foreclose on the land, only the building... 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 06:43:04 AM by gottaplan »

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #135 on: April 24, 2012, 07:16:32 AM »
^ but isnt case backing the 'student housing' portion of this project? if so, that chops off some worry as it will be supported finacially by the college.

if no, then what exactly is meant by student housing? is it private apts merely suggested to be for case students by the developer? or will they be official student housing apts? hopefully the latter so it will help offset costs for coral & the other developers.

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #136 on: April 24, 2012, 07:53:17 AM »
Banks don't care about parking, tenants do.  Try and build an apartment building or office that doesn't offer 1 space per apartment or 1 space per employee and see how well it gets leased.  I don't care if there is a transit stop right out front, this is Cleveland, not Chicago.  That parking is also required to produce revenue to fund the project.

Cleveland isn't Chicago, but parts of Cleveland have as much transit and amenities as Chicago does. And this area is one of them. This site has more than just a transit stop out front. It's in the crotch of two high-density transit routes, plus lesser density transit, plus pedestrian accessibility to all basic services, plus access to bike-friendly routes in several directions. Yet I fear we in Cleveland build like we've always built because we're too timid to compete with the likes of Chicago. Building and maintaining all those parking spaces will cause higher cost burdens on developers, lenders and ultimately, tenants. Are we sure that there is a significant portion of the market that would love to reduce their cost of housing by not having to pay for parking? Or to provide shared parking -- using a parking space at night for residential that may be used by an office user during the day?

This site would be a great opportunity to support the use of location-efficient mortgages, but it requires a public sector sponsor like RTA, the city, UCI or a combination. Maybe Coral isn't willing to be the guinea pig, not with this project. But if a LEM-supported project could be done anywhere, this location is clearly one of the best between Chicago and the East Coast.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 07:56:41 AM by KJP »
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline Hts121

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #137 on: April 24, 2012, 07:53:55 AM »
^^Which is why banks care about parking.  If the developer can't lease the buildings, they will default on their loans.

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #138 on: April 24, 2012, 08:04:27 AM »
Banks care about signed leases, not parking.  You can build a tree house with a rope ladder and no parking but if you can get it leased for $20/sf, you can probably get a bank to finance it.

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #139 on: April 24, 2012, 08:09:13 AM »
^ but isnt case backing the 'student housing' portion of this project? if so, that chops off some worry as it will be supported finacially by the college.

if no, then what exactly is meant by student housing? is it private apts merely suggested to be for case students by the developer? or will they be official student housing apts? hopefully the latter so it will help offset costs for coral & the other developers.


I went back & re-read the article, I didn't see anything mentioning CWRU as a partner in the development.  The area designated as "student housing" faces the back of those ugly old apartments and would likely have cheaper finishes.  The higher end "market rate" apartments facing Mayfield are what's being targeted to the doctors & tech employees.

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #140 on: April 24, 2012, 08:10:16 AM »
^^Which is why banks care about parking.  If the developer can't lease the buildings, they will default on their loans.

I think it would be interesting to do a market assessment among various demographic groups in which two of the questions asked is:

If you could rent an apartment without a parking space included and save $100 per month on your rent, would that apartment be more attractive to you or less?

Which would you prefer at the same rent level -- an apartment without a parking space but with higher-quality finishes and amenities (in-suite laundry, balcony, better views, etc) or an apartment with a parking space included but having lower-quality finishes and fewer amenities?
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #141 on: April 24, 2012, 08:15:08 AM »
^I know Coral Group did extensive market analysis on daytime & night time uses as well as demographics of the area.  The biggest thing they came up with was that only 20% or so of the people who work in UCI live in the area.  The rest are commuters.  Rubin's theory was exactly what you're getting at KJP - if we built nice market rate housing here in the area, would you give up your commute (and possibly a car)?

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #142 on: April 24, 2012, 08:21:03 AM »
^^Which is why banks care about parking.  If the developer can't lease the buildings, they will default on their loans.

I think it would be interesting to do a market assessment among various demographic groups in which two of the questions asked is:

If you could rent an apartment without a parking space included and save $100 per month on your rent, would that apartment be more attractive to you or less?

Which would you prefer at the same rent level -- an apartment without a parking space but with higher-quality finishes and amenities (in-suite laundry, balcony, better views, etc) or an apartment with a parking space included but having lower-quality finishes and fewer amenities?

I would love to see those results. Also add some sort of question asking how much they are willing to pay per month

Online StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #143 on: April 24, 2012, 08:39:56 AM »
I think this parking discussion has gotten a little off track. The 700 space garage that's integrated with the main development is enough to accommodate 100k of office space and 96 units of large, market rate units even at Beachwood's very auto-centric zoning standards (yes, I actually checked). Cleveland isn't Chicago, but it's not Beachwood either.  Even adding some student housing and limited retail (and it's not clear whether the 30k sf tech ribbon is part of the 100k sf of office), I think parking needs will be easily met on-site. I doubt even the developers think the second garage is crucial for the main project.

Gottaplan's cross-subsidy issue is interesting, but I'm skeptical a skybridge to a development with its own 700 space garage is really going to effect the revenue numbers all that much.  I interpreted the article to mean that the second garage would mostly serve UH (so again, skybridge not crucial), but it's not clear.

Offline jborger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #144 on: April 24, 2012, 10:34:20 AM »
Banks care about signed leases, not parking.  You can build a tree house with a rope ladder and no parking but if you can get it leased for $20/sf, you can probably get a bank to finance it.

I would love to see that treehouse.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #145 on: April 24, 2012, 04:30:20 PM »
The parking garage is a joke for a development in between two of Cleveland's densest neighborhoods, and on the link of Little Italy to University Circle, AND for being directly next to a rapid transit station, and a short walk from the Healthline. This city CAN'T be walkable and dense if we keep building parking garages everywhere!

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2012, 07:14:52 PM »
One huge parking garage will take away the motive for surface parking lots once the draw of uptown hits full stride. 

As long as there are freeways, there will be a need for parking.

Online Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2012, 07:33:55 PM »
If there were futue phases to this development, I could see the need for that much parking. However, this seems like a one-and-done development, in that the only place to build in the future would be the surface lot directly north of the 700 car parking lot. And no, that's not a joke.

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2012, 07:47:54 PM »
The 700-car parking garage is behind both towers and not visible from the street.  I can only see this as a positive thing.  It doesn't disrupt any of the street-lining retail and provides covered parking for residents.  So what's the big deal?  Is this what people have a problem with?

That second garage with the skybridge across Mayfield... OK, reasons to gripe.  But either way i don't see this as the end of the world if it gets built as is.  It's still a new train station, residential, retail, student housing, and needed parking all into one that UC and Cleveland desparately could use.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 07:51:44 PM by MuRrAy HiLL »

Online StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle "Intesa" development
« Reply #149 on: April 24, 2012, 08:40:46 PM »
^No, I think everyone is fine with the 700 space garage. It's the other one causing agita.  And without the sky bridge, and with a decent facade and ground floor, I'd be totally fine with it.  I don't really care too much if there's tons if parking, just not at the expense of the steetscape on that stretch of Mayfield.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 08:41:57 PM by StrapHanger »