Author Topic: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments  (Read 33845 times)

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Offline Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #960 on: November 15, 2017, 01:16:33 PM »
I have a really interesting idea for what to do with Tower City center: its originally intended purpose...a train station.

Union Station in DC, a busy train and Metro station, went through a restoration/renewal project some years ago.  The building, with a lot of new retail, looks great and is an excellent train station. The retail component, however, has become mostly a lot of cheap food and souvenirs, not so different from TC now. Cheap food and kitsch is what the tourist-travelers are looking for and the pedestrian-unfriendly Station has not been successful at drawing other traffic.  I'm not sure that is TC's problem, however, and the growing downtown population probably makes TC a different case.
There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

Offline Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #961 on: November 15, 2017, 01:19:18 PM »
Duplicate
There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

Offline mu2010

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #962 on: November 15, 2017, 02:09:08 PM »
Busy commuter train stations probably are best off having retail which serves commuter's needs - that is, fast food, essential goods, grocery, drugstore, maybe a Target. Less destination shopping.

That's not to say that Tower City has that kind of transit traffic, I'm just saying in general. They could try to downsize the mall, I guess.

Offline originaljbw

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #963 on: November 15, 2017, 10:32:02 PM »
^or at least accept the reality that high end retail will be better suited to storefronts along Euclid... Geigers has the right idea.

Offline TPH2

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #964 on: November 15, 2017, 11:44:18 PM »
I have a really interesting idea for what to do with Tower City center: its originally intended purpose...a train station.

Union Station in DC, a busy train and Metro station, went through a restoration/renewal project some years ago.  The building, with a lot of new retail, looks great and is an excellent train station. The retail component, however, has become mostly a lot of cheap food and souvenirs, not so different from TC now. Cheap food and kitsch is what the tourist-travelers are looking for and the pedestrian-unfriendly Station has not been successful at drawing other traffic.  I'm not sure that is TC's problem, however, and the growing downtown population probably makes TC a different case.

When's the last time you were in Union Station? https://www.unionstationdc.com/pdfs/directoryMap.pdf

Offline Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #965 on: November 16, 2017, 01:22:51 AM »
There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

Offline OC17

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #966 on: November 16, 2017, 01:52:47 AM »
I was just in Union Station this past weekend; hardly a bastion of cheap retail and food stands.  There is no comparison between Union Station and Tower City.

Online freethink

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #967 on: December 27, 2017, 10:01:53 PM »
So this is federally funded through the Surface Transportation Program for urbanized areas with over 200k pop.  I hadn't heard this was in the works although I'm sure it's needed. Hopefully this will prepare TC for its up coming projects with the K&D conversion and whatever Gilbert has planned.

OH/DOT: Tower City Bridges (Project no: 170425 )
Valuation: $13,990,872   Owner Type: Public   Bid Ends: Dec 14, 2017
Location: OH (Cuyahoga)     Report #: 201300586335 v. 33   
Description: MPO STP Project to replace the existing bridge expansion joints, remove and repair bridge waterproofing and remove and install new conrete surface course for the Tower City Bridge Complex. The complex consists of the Huron Road bridgeMPO STP Project to replace the existing bridge expansion joints, remove and repair bridge waterproofing and remove and install new conrete surface course for the Tower City Bridge Complex. The complex consists of the Huron Road bridge,<<

Offline AmrapinVA

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #968 on: December 27, 2017, 10:35:48 PM »
Tower City will never be Union Station. Not a good comparison, IMHO.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 10:38:38 PM by AmrapinVA »

Online Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #969 on: December 28, 2017, 09:18:44 PM »
So this is federally funded through the Surface Transportation Program for urbanized areas with over 200k pop.  I hadn't heard this was in the works although I'm sure it's needed. Hopefully this will prepare TC for its up coming projects with the K&D conversion and whatever Gilbert has planned.

OH/DOT: Tower City Bridges (Project no: 170425 )
Valuation: $13,990,872   Owner Type: Public   Bid Ends: Dec 14, 2017
Location: OH (Cuyahoga)     Report #: 201300586335 v. 33   
Description: MPO STP Project to replace the existing bridge expansion joints, remove and repair bridge waterproofing and remove and install new conrete surface course for the Tower City Bridge Complex. The complex consists of the Huron Road bridgeMPO STP Project to replace the existing bridge expansion joints, remove and repair bridge waterproofing and remove and install new conrete surface course for the Tower City Bridge Complex. The complex consists of the Huron Road bridge,<<

Cleveland has GOT to do something about all the 14 axle dump trucks traveling Huron from the flats or these repairs will be shot within another 10 years.   If you spend any time around there you'll see literally hundreds traversing it daily (many of these truckers are very aggressive drivers as well....probably trying to maximize their loads they carry per day). 


Online PoshSteve

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #970 on: December 30, 2017, 11:00:41 PM »
^ Not to mention all the new improvements on W25 north of Detroit which are soon going to be torn up, and the beating the Detroit Superior Bridge gets from them. I thought one of the reasons for the E9th Extension down into the Flats was to give those truckers a new route to 77 so they didn't have to drive thru downtown. That should be enforced.

Offline mu2010

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #971 on: January 19, 2018, 10:52:25 AM »
Do you guys think the Tower City mall peaked too soon? I was there yesterday thinking about this. It opened long before the downtown residential boom and hasn't been viewed as a top shopping destination for some time. Imagine if the mall would have opened with the full support of retailers it once had - but in 2014 instead of 1990.

Today downtown is hot but TC is not - why? It's a perception thing.

Online Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #972 on: January 19, 2018, 11:13:39 AM »
^Doubt it.  Brick and mortar retail was more viable then than now.  And the downtown work force was also bigger then.  Given the current retail environment nationwide I doubt  that TC would even be built today (especially with all the original high end stores) even with the increased downtown residential downtown population.

Offline YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #973 on: January 19, 2018, 12:32:29 PM »
^Doubt it.  Brick and mortar retail was more viable then than now.  And the downtown work force was also bigger then.  Given the current retail environment nationwide I doubt  that TC would even be built today (especially with all the original high end stores) even with the increased downtown residential downtown population.

Yeah, when TC went in, guys right across the street from BP were getting $50,000 year-end bonuses

Offline PaxtonMarley

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #974 on: January 19, 2018, 12:43:13 PM »
Do you guys think the Tower City mall peaked too soon? I was there yesterday thinking about this. It opened long before the downtown residential boom and hasn't been viewed as a top shopping destination for some time. Imagine if the mall would have opened with the full support of retailers it once had - but in 2014 instead of 1990.

Today downtown is hot but TC is not - why? It's a perception thing.

I don't think so, Tower City being leased up as luxury mall was one of the biggest business blunders in Downtown Cleveland.  It didn't meet the needs of Cleveland in 1990 nor in 2018.

Now that Danny Gilbert owns the mall and the surrounding buildings, I think the sentiment is "what now?"  The mall is not particularly well located, has a lot of B and C tenants, a dingy food court that was originally intended to be temporary but has become permanent, and not much else going on there.

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #975 on: January 19, 2018, 12:44:02 PM »
Plus, there's more retail options in the eastern suburbs. Friends who worked in RTA management back then told me they had decent ridership from people riding the Rapid to shop at Tower City.
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Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #976 on: January 19, 2018, 12:49:41 PM »
I think we tend to over-estimate the retail demand that the current downtown residents generate. Not sure it would really have moved the needle all that much on Tower City's sales. This is especially true given the sky high car ownership rate of non-poor residents, which means they aren't really locked into the local retail options.

Offline PaxtonMarley

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #977 on: January 19, 2018, 01:07:02 PM »
Here's something though, I am familiar with Downtown D.C. and Chicago, and noticed how many office workers go shopping during lunch.  The stores that get the most patronage aren't luxury boutiques but big-box stores (e.g. TJ Maxx, Marshall's, Nordstrom Rack) and mid-level stores like Forever 21 and H&M.  In other words, stores that you'll find in any suburban shopping center, but in a walkable setting.

Forgetting about the residents Downtown, with all that white collar employment within a relatively compact space, there's got to be some opportunity there.

Offline YABO713

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #978 on: January 19, 2018, 01:09:52 PM »
Here's something though, I am familiar with Downtown D.C. and Chicago, and noticed how many office workers go shopping during lunch.  The stores that get the most patronage aren't luxury boutiques but big-box stores (e.g. TJ Maxx, Marshall's, Nordstrom Rack) and mid-level stores like Forever 21 and H&M.  In other words, stores that you'll find in any suburban shopping center, but in a walkable setting.

Forgetting about the residents Downtown, with all that white collar employment within a relatively compact space, there's got to be some opportunity there.

I have started doing my grocery shopping at Heinen's during lunch. Just so much more convenient. I actually went into the CVS on 9th the other day to buy nails to hang something in my apartment.

Online freefourur

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #979 on: January 19, 2018, 01:16:05 PM »
Here's something though, I am familiar with Downtown D.C. and Chicago, and noticed how many office workers go shopping during lunch.  The stores that get the most patronage aren't luxury boutiques but big-box stores (e.g. TJ Maxx, Marshall's, Nordstrom Rack) and mid-level stores like Forever 21 and H&M.  In other words, stores that you'll find in any suburban shopping center, but in a walkable setting.

Forgetting about the residents Downtown, with all that white collar employment within a relatively compact space, there's got to be some opportunity there.

I needed a belt the other day because mine broke.  I couldn't think of any place to get one downtown.  Something like Marshall's would be nice.

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #980 on: January 19, 2018, 01:27:26 PM »

I needed a belt the other day because mine broke.  I couldn't think of any place to get one downtown.  Something like Marshall's would be nice.

Geiger's, Brooks Brothers, and possibly even A Dollar at Tower City should have something.
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Online freefourur

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #981 on: January 19, 2018, 01:31:54 PM »
A Dollar is more in my budget..lol 

Offline inlovewithCLE

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #982 on: January 19, 2018, 02:05:47 PM »
Here's something though, I am familiar with Downtown D.C. and Chicago, and noticed how many office workers go shopping during lunch.  The stores that get the most patronage aren't luxury boutiques but big-box stores (e.g. TJ Maxx, Marshall's, Nordstrom Rack) and mid-level stores like Forever 21 and H&M.  In other words, stores that you'll find in any suburban shopping center, but in a walkable setting.

Forgetting about the residents Downtown, with all that white collar employment within a relatively compact space, there's got to be some opportunity there.

Very good point. I personally think thatís the direction Tower City should go in. And itís no accident that those mid level stores and mid level big boxes are the only ones really expanding still at this point. If they filled it with those kinds of stores, I think TC would be successful. And Steelyard wouldnít be an impediment because TC would be more convenient to the people who work downtown.

Offline jmc8651

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #983 on: January 19, 2018, 02:37:41 PM »
The Brooks Brothers seems to do well with the lawyers and bankers around public square. My dad shops there mostly because it's convenient. 

A Joseph A. Bank probably could do OK given the number of office workers.

I'm not sure a store which doesn't cater to the business crowd would succeed. A lot  of the mid level shops were downtown until 06/07. Gap, Forever 21 and Ambercrombie all closed in TC around that time. The recession was likely a factor but the rise of online shopping would make it a tough sell for those stores to come back. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 02:46:32 PM by jmc8651 »

Offline mrclifton88

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #984 on: January 19, 2018, 03:03:19 PM »
Last time I heard any inside scoop was that Gilbert intents to try to steer the mall back in a higher-end direction (whatever mix that might mean), eliminate the food court, and renovate the theater.  After K&D is done with the Halle Building conversion it will focus its attention on Terminal Tower.  By that time I assume we will know what Gilbert has in mind, especially since he now owns several buildings and properties all around this location.

Offline PaxtonMarley

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #985 on: January 19, 2018, 03:23:24 PM »
Last time I heard any inside scoop was that Gilbert intents to try to steer the mall back in a higher-end direction (whatever mix that might mean), eliminate the food court, and renovate the theater.  After K&D is done with the Halle Building conversion it will focus its attention on Terminal Tower.  By that time I assume we will know what Gilbert has in mind, especially since he now owns several buildings and properties all around this location.

Jos A. Bank would be a fine addition to downtown.  They don't have any downtown locations in Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, or Detroit.  But they do have a downtown presence in Chicago, Pittsburgh, and D.C.

I wouldn't be surprised if a "food hall" were in Tower City's near future.  Since we lost the food courts at Halle and Atrium (?), I can see that happening.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #986 on: January 19, 2018, 03:35:52 PM »
Last time I heard any inside scoop was that Gilbert intents to try to steer the mall back in a higher-end direction (whatever mix that might mean), eliminate the food court, and renovate the theater.  After K&D is done with the Halle Building conversion it will focus its attention on Terminal Tower.  By that time I assume we will know what Gilbert has in mind, especially since he now owns several buildings and properties all around this location.

Wouldn't be surprised if he tears out the movie aspects of the theater and replaces it with a live entertainment venue.  The original plan to not compete with the neighbors doesn't seem to working so well, and "in theaters" movies are on artificial life support.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #987 on: January 19, 2018, 03:37:28 PM »
I think we tend to over-estimate the retail demand that the current downtown residents generate. Not sure it would really have moved the needle all that much on Tower City's sales. This is especially true given the sky high car ownership rate of non-poor residents, which means they aren't really locked into the local retail options.

When you live in a larger building, package delivery is safe and secure and stuff bought in stores has to be taken up the elevators.  I suspect they are fully on board with online shopping.

Offline mu2010

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #988 on: January 19, 2018, 03:47:50 PM »
Yeah, in my building the poor security staff basically spend half their time processing packages and distributing them when everybody gets home at 6:00. It's always busy, but at Christmastime, wow - you'd wait 10 minutes to pick up your package.

The problem actually isn't hauling the stuff up elevators, but hauling down the street, when even people with cars often park sometimes a few blocks away or whatever. When I moved in I bought flat-box furniture online.

Offline ML11

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Re: Cleveland: General Tower City Center Developments
« Reply #989 on: January 19, 2018, 03:59:17 PM »
I know the location isn't as close to the stadium district, but with Nucleus very much in the air, why wouldn't Gilbert try his own "LIVE" concept in Tower City, and turn a big part of the space into a mixed entertainment destination? I'm not crazy about these in other cities, but it seems like a few adjustments and renovations would allow for this to exist in the southern end of TC.  There is already the tunnel from TC to the Q, so he could tie it into all the events at the Q AND the casino. 

If I know anything about @CavsDan, he wants to grab every last dollar that his events generate (see: flashseats). Plus, if he has any ambition to have more than parking along the river, then this could be a made into a solid year-round destination. And if it's able to attract additional foot traffic, it would only push up the value of the remaining retail space.