Author Topic: Peak Education  (Read 11348 times)

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Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #540 on: April 13, 2016, 08:34:37 PM »
Good kids getting into top schools but they can't come close to affording it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2016/04/13/playing-financial-merit-aid-roulette-with-my-college-bound-son/


I got into much better schools than I could afford to attend, so I can relate to this.  I ended up going to the two state colleges I went to completely for financial reasons even though I was accepted and got some money from much better schools. 

Online Brutus_buckeye

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #541 on: April 13, 2016, 10:41:45 PM »
There is nothing wrong with going to a State school. In fact, there are a lot of fools who go to very expensive private schools and graduate heavily in debt. It may open a door or two initially, but beyond the first couple of years, it does not really mean too much in the career.

There are a lot of successful people who graduate from Ohio U in the world, and there are a fair share of failures who graduate from Harvard.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #542 on: April 13, 2016, 11:21:07 PM »
There is nothing wrong with going to a State school. In fact, there are a lot of fools who go to very expensive private schools and graduate heavily in debt. It may open a door or two initially, but beyond the first couple of years, it does not really mean too much in the career.

There are a lot of successful people who graduate from Ohio U in the world, and there are a fair share of failures who graduate from Harvard.


Yes and no to all that.  But something that can't be ignored is that attending an elite school with students from wealthy families means you're somewhat more likely to marry someone with a nice fat inheritance coming their (and your) way. 


Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #543 on: April 14, 2016, 01:28:49 PM »
my only question is why someone would apply to all 8 Ivy League schools (plus several more elite institutions). How much does it cost to submit even one college application these days? $100, 200?? I wonder what her backup school is, MIT? (mine was Lakeland Comm. College-- :laugh:)

Long Island High School Student Sweeps All Eight Ivies
By MIKE McPHATE
APRIL 6, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/nyregion/long-island-high-school-students-sweeps-ivy-league-universities.html?_r=0

Offline Ram23

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #544 on: April 14, 2016, 02:07:20 PM »
Quote
Augusta Uwamanzu-Nna is the daughter of Nigerian immigrants.

I wonder how much the current trend toward holistic admissions affected this situation?

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #545 on: April 14, 2016, 02:28:19 PM »
Yeah, do the admissions people who actually crunch the numbers (or whatever they crunch) see an applicant's name?  If so they can form a picture in their mind, if they don't just do a google image search or look them up on Facebook. 

When I have lived in other areas of the country I have had people variously assume that I was Jewish or from an old money family based on my name alone.  I don't know if it worked for me or against me.   




Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #546 on: April 14, 2016, 02:34:03 PM »
I'll add though that I worked for several months as a temp at a standardized test scoring company.  It takes a huge staff of people to score the essay sections of the tests.  The training for each question is pretty lengthy and each essay is scored by two different people.  If a passage receives different scores from different scorers, it is kicked out once more and scored by a third person. 

The frustrating thing about scoring those essays was that you could see that the more creative and better-spoken students often got lower scores than those who stumbled on the "correct" key words and phrases by accident. We also were not permitted to score based on penmanship.  But from an admissions standpoint, I'd have to think that handwriting is a heckuva window into the maturity and character of the applicant. 

Also, a few of the people I met who devise those tests (the essays and the overall structure of the tests) were some of the smarter people I've met.  Overall there were definitely some very intelligent people working in this realm. 

« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 02:37:28 PM by jmecklenborg »

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #547 on: April 14, 2016, 02:35:19 PM »
Quote
Augusta Uwamanzu-Nna is the daughter of Nigerian immigrants.

I wonder how much the current trend toward holistic admissions affected this situation?

“They are very concerned about racial and ethnic diversity,” Mr. Skarlis said. “They would rather have the Latino kid from the Bronx who has overcome something significant in his life, rather than the upper-middle-class or more affluent white student.”

I suspect the kids of African (except Somali) immigrants are especially prized since they fulfill a de facto racial quota yet usually have values more like Asian immigrants. (Which is probably  how she ended up applying to all the Ivies.)

This is by no means a bad thing.  It can start countering the idea that issues facing the black community are racial rather than cultural.

Offline eastvillagedon

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #548 on: April 14, 2016, 02:50:55 PM »

 We also were not permitted to score based on penmanship.  But from an admissions standpoint, I'd have to think that handwriting is a heckuva window into the maturity and character of the applicant. 

except these days kids aren't even capable of handwriting!

Why Johnny can’t sign his name: Cursive writing goes the way of the quill

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2013/06/23/why_johnny_cant_sign_his_name_cursive_writing_goes_the_way_of_the_quill.html

Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #549 on: April 14, 2016, 03:56:39 PM »

 We also were not permitted to score based on penmanship.  But from an admissions standpoint, I'd have to think that handwriting is a heckuva window into the maturity and character of the applicant. 

except these days kids aren't even capable of handwriting!

Why Johnny can’t sign his name: Cursive writing goes the way of the quill

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2013/06/23/why_johnny_cant_sign_his_name_cursive_writing_goes_the_way_of_the_quill.html

My son is 6 and goes to CHCA in Downtown Cincy and his handwriting is better than a lot of adults I see.

When he was doing his homework, I said that's not how you write an "h" ... he started putting little hooks on all of his letters. When I was picking him up I asked the teacher about it and she said it's because they're going to teach them cursive next year. I was pretty relieved and asked her about CHCA doing away with cursive like a lot of schools seem to be now and she said something like, "we will never stop teaching cursive handwriting."

Online GCrites80s

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #550 on: April 14, 2016, 07:54:13 PM »
That's what they taught us at the Christian school I went to for K-1st. It was like printing but had the hooks. I think it was called D'nealian handwriting.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #551 on: April 14, 2016, 08:26:03 PM »
Come on.  It took maybe 2 weeks of English class in 3rd grade to learn cursive, perhaps less time than we spent learning to type.  What are they doing instead with the time? 

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #552 on: April 14, 2016, 08:43:03 PM »
The hits keep coming.  Pay off student loans early or increase 401k contributions?  This article doesn't consider saving for a house/paying off house early and/or real estate investing. 
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pay-off-student-loans-save-162100816.html

None of these columns seem to ever suggest that people with professional jobs should also get a part-time job and put all of that extra money to loans/401k/house.  I kept telling my youngest brother who was in sales to go get a restaurant or bartending job and he didn't do it.  Sure enough last Monday he got canned and now has zero money coming in, a too-expensive apartment, and a car with payments.  So the repo man is circling the block. 

Offline gaslight

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #553 on: April 14, 2016, 09:32:30 PM »
Come on.  It took maybe 2 weeks of English class in 3rd grade to learn cursive, perhaps less time than we spent learning to type.  What are they doing instead with the time? 


Too much time teaching common core

Online GCrites80s

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #554 on: June 01, 2016, 01:03:25 PM »
This article goes into how a lot of students at private, NON-profit schools have trouble graduating or making a decent income after graduating. I can't help but think that the locations of a lot of private schools in small towns far from major employment centers is hurting their students' prospects. Back in the 19th and 20th centuries when having any college degree was a big deal these out-of-the-way schools were just as good or better a placing students in jobs than ones located in major cities. Now that's not true. I remember a lot of students starting out at more expensive, private rural schools then transferring to city schools when they became worried about their job prospects and the cost of tuition.



Graduation Rates: The Telltale Sign Of Success Or Indicator Of Failure?

For millions of students, attending college is a means to a better life: more job prospects, and higher earnings over a lifetime. While students who enroll and graduate from an institution of higher learning often reach those goals — despite graduating with thousands of dollars in loan debt – millions of others never graduate and face mounting financial obstacles.

The report from Third Way, a Washington, D.C. think tank – suggests that hundreds of private, non-profit universities have failed to assist students in reaching their goals of graduating and moving forward in the real world.

According to the report, which analyzed data from the Department of Education’s College Scorecard, nearly half of the full-time, loan-holding students aren’t graduating, while those that do graduate aren’t earning sufficient incomes even years after completion, and far too many are unable to repay their loans.

more: https://consumerist.com/2016/06/01/graduation-rates-the-telltale-sign-of-success-or-indicator-of-failure/

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #555 on: June 01, 2016, 01:47:10 PM »
Yeah, I think a lot of these small colleges are out there limping along.  Everyone working there just needs a job. 

If I were hiring people and somebody came in with a degree from a school that I had to Google, I'd wonder why the hell they went to such an obscure school.  They'd seem like someone who tricks themselves into making weird life decisions and is needlessly afraid of crowds and cities. 

Offline Gramarye

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #556 on: June 01, 2016, 02:51:31 PM »
I'm not surprised.  It's a heresy that lots of people aren't willing to say yet (and those that do often do so anonymously on the Internet instead of on the campaign trail), but we are sending too many people to college (and, beyond that, too many people to graduate school).  But colleges have incentives to increase enrollment rather than selectivity, especially with little skin in the financial side of things post-graduation.  Competition for quantity is going to come at the expense of quality somewhere in the system, and there are just so many private nonprofit schools in the country that it's simply inevitable that some of them are going to have to relax standards to preserve or increase enrollment.  (Ohio is known for its wealth of public colleges, with 12, IIRC, but the number of private colleges in this state is just insane.)  I've kind of wondered what motivates people to go to Hiram, Defiance, Heidelberg, etc., and I'm sure that each of those schools have their analogues in other regions of the country.

Offline seicer

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #557 on: June 01, 2016, 03:40:06 PM »
The college boom is over, and is going bust fast. St. Catherine's (which recently started offering four-year degrees to boost enrollment) is now closing in Kentucky: http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article81098527.html

Online GCrites80s

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #558 on: June 01, 2016, 04:29:51 PM »
  I've kind of wondered what motivates people to go to Hiram, Defiance, Heidelberg, etc., and I'm sure that each of those schools have their analogues in other regions of the country.

Heidelberg has a reputation for letting almost everyone in.

Offline Hootenany

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #559 on: June 01, 2016, 04:31:51 PM »
^^^I totally agree that we are sending too many to college.  We are pumping out kids with worthless degrees and a mountain of debt.  At some point that's going to have a real impact on the economy if it isn't already.

I've long thought that the motivations of the universities needed to be forcefully changed by completely overhauling their funding mechanism.  Instead of loading up kids and their parents with debt to pay for college up front why doesn't the government (state or federal) collect a tax on the graduate for some number of years after they graduate to fund the University?  There would obviously need to be a transition period, but once operating this would shift the incentive of the University.  They wouldn't just be looking for warm bodies to fill the seats and dorms they would be looking for students with high earning potential because the more their graduates earn the more money they will take in. 

The government could even adjust the tax rate and/or taxable period based on strategic national interests and demand.  If engineers are needed, for example, they could tell students that engineering graduates will pay 5% of their income for 10 years to cover the cost of their education while other graduates (philosophy for example) will pay 5% of their income for 20 years.  They could use average salary data to determine equitable payment terms for each degree.  Now your playing the incentive game on both sides, student and University, to achieve a student enrollment that aligns a little bit better with demand and you're eliminating the student loan debt problem.

What am I missing?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 04:32:04 PM by Hootenany »

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #560 on: June 01, 2016, 04:47:57 PM »
College should simply be free like how high school is, but it would be a lot easier to get kicked out than it is currently.  And people who are kicked out under certain situations would then have to pay tuition in order to come back and complete it.  Also, college tuition should be paid for out of a national inheritance tax on the wealthiest heirs. 

Offline STRIVE2THRIVE

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #561 on: June 01, 2016, 05:13:35 PM »
I don't think giving someone something (college degree in this case) for free is generally a good idea. It devalues it and is taken for granted. Perhaps a system like ROTC scholarships; They pay for your schooling, and you are guaranteed a job once you graduate and you owe a certain number of years to "pay it off".  Only instead of the Army/government paying for school, companies and businesses would pay to educate their future workers.  The shift in demand would be truly market driven and the businesses most likely would only want to pay for schools that teach and meet their required skills.  That would eliminate the obscure schools that people unthread seem to think exist.

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #562 on: June 01, 2016, 05:17:28 PM »
The number of salesmanship classes would go through the roof if businesses specified coursework.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #563 on: June 01, 2016, 05:54:01 PM »
I don't think giving someone something (college degree in this case) for free is generally a good idea. It devalues it and is taken for granted. Perhaps a system like ROTC scholarships; They pay for your schooling, and you are guaranteed a job once you graduate and you owe a certain number of years to "pay it off".  Only instead of the Army/government paying for school, companies and businesses would pay to educate their future workers.  The shift in demand would be truly market driven and the businesses most likely would only want to pay for schools that teach and meet their required skills.  That would eliminate the obscure schools that people unthread seem to think exist.

No, in my perfect world, college would be almost 100% liberal arts, with little "training" toward any specific field.  That field won't exist 10 years after the student graduates.  But the lessons from literature, criticism, writing, cultural studies, philosophy, history, etc., are applicable for the rest of one's life. Many people earn "real" degrees in stuff like business and especially engineering but have never had to put anything out there.  They've never had their writing or other work critiqued by their peers.  They haven't been forced to fail in front of an audience -- when they turn in a lousy paper, only their teachers know. 

A freshman year that pulls a student in 6 different directions fall semester and 6 more spring semester means that they won't have natural strengths in each and so will truly struggle with a few of them.  And by "directions" I don't mean just formal classes.  I mean bring what we now call extracurriculars into the structured academic realm.  But those activities should be "unstructured" and peer-run.  Don't just "shadow" a professional or sit around in an office for a 4-month internship.  It's always been my observation that an intern has a privileged position that doesn't require any kind of grit -- nobody really screws with these people because they aren't real threats.  Instead the whole thing is just all cutesy. 

Offline Ram23

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #564 on: June 01, 2016, 06:03:14 PM »
The number of salesmanship classes would go through the roof if businesses specified coursework.

I feel like dozens of required credit hours for virtually an degree could be swapped out for courses that are more in-line with daily business activities in their respective fields. Using my degree(s) in architecture as an example, I could probably find 20-30 required credit hours I would have gladly swapped out for some courses in finance, administration, contract law, marketing, sales, etc. In 6 years of college, I had one required course for 3 credit hours that tried to capture all of that.

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #565 on: June 01, 2016, 06:26:21 PM »
^I agree with that.  Everyone would benefit from a cursory overview of the law...few college graduates have ever opened a law book (I didn't actually read a law until years after I left school).  Also, I would have loved to have taken a class called "History of Debt" and another called "History of Taxation". 

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #566 on: August 23, 2016, 09:38:58 PM »
Yale Law School grad and #1 bestselling author mispronounces diaspora at 2:28:

Online jmecklenborg

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #567 on: September 06, 2016, 01:34:55 PM »

Offline Clevelander17

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #568 on: September 07, 2016, 09:16:13 PM »
Department of Education shuts down ITT Tech:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/itt-techs-closure-one-largest-154806610.html

More for-profit "institutions" of education (K-12 and postsecondary) need to be on the chopping block. Very few are truly doing right by students.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 09:16:28 PM by Clevelander17 »

Online GCrites80s

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Re: Peak Education
« Reply #569 on: September 07, 2016, 09:30:24 PM »
People don't realize not to buy things advertised during Maury