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Author Topic: Cleveland: Ohio City: Development and News  (Read 13028 times)

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Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2005, 10:38:01 AM »
Some not so good news from today's PD
Unstable land further delays CMHA project
Tuesday, April 26, 2005
Angela D. Chatman
Plain Dealer Reporter
Plans for a multimillion-dollar development behind Riverview Tower will be revised because much of the land where it was to be built is unstable.

The problem will further delay the Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority project, which faces a deadline for using federal grant money.

A preliminary geotechnical study has found that the hillside stretching from behind the tower on West 25th Street down to Riverbed Road along the Cuyahoga River is shifting.

The study said some sort of stabilization with anchors across the site - for about $15 million - would be needed...

more at: http://www.cleveland.com


« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 01:20:36 PM by McCleveland »

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2005, 01:15:23 PM »
ouch...that doesn't sound too good.  that's an extra $15 million to a project that might not justify that.  I guess the worst case scenario is that we'll see less density on the site.  and if they can't build out on the east end of the site, I guess they'd have no choice but to turn it into a big park/promenade along the bluff!  of course I'd rather see the aforementioned public agencies put all the money up for the necessary engineering, but how long would that take to get approved?  probably longer than a year-and-a-half, which would mean we'd lose the HUD $$$...

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2005, 01:48:36 PM »
There is a church tucked in behind the WSM, maybe the diocese will be interested in selling it and the land?

Offline nsc

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2005, 02:19:39 PM »
They should probably undercut the slope about 10' and inject lime in it.  Fairly cost effective.  With the density they assume to have here, it would pay off in the long run.  If you can build a shopping center on a sloped landfill (CityView Center in Garfield Heights) I'm sure you can do this.  Believe, this is what I do for a living, and if they cancel the project because of this, it would have never gone in the first place.  There are always soils issues on  sites, especially in the city. 

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2005, 05:42:06 PM »
Not exactly the news I wanted to hear..

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2005, 04:05:37 PM »
Can't say I'm surprised by this turn of events....

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2492.msg26230#msg26230

I feared this would happen. If it wasn't for the short timeline, they could probably find the funds for stabilizing the hillside. Otherwise, CMHA will probably have to scale back the project. No matter what they build, I suspect they'll need some sort of slope stabilization work. Even several small, recently built townhouses in Rocky River, at Wooster and Detroit roads, had to be built on caissons to support their weight. The shale slopes around here just don't make hillside construction, be they of buildings, roads or whatever, very affordable.

KJP
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2005, 07:42:50 AM »
These low-income housing advocates make me mad. I'm sick of them proposing more warehouses for poor people and arguing against private investment in the neighborhood. Un-freaking-believable.

Give them job training and a rent voucher to help them get out of poverty, and bring more market-rate homes to the neighborhood so that there's more wealth. More wealth means more stores and businesses. More stores and businesses means more jobs. More jobs means fewer people having to depend on public assistance and dispersing those concentrations of poverty.

Three cheers to Joe Mazzola for stating what apparently isn't so obvious to these short-sighted people.

KJP
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2005, 07:57:22 AM »
I'm with you KJP.  I am very curious to see which alternative sites are offered today. 

Offline Jmart

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2005, 01:04:16 PM »
I agree as well..  Im more or less like "Whats the point?

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2005, 05:41:23 PM »
These low-income housing advocates make me mad. I'm sick of them proposing more warehouses for poor people and arguing against private investment in the neighborhood. Un-freaking-believable.

Give them job training and a rent voucher to help them get out of poverty, and bring more market-rate homes to the neighborhood so that there's more wealth. More wealth means more stores and businesses. More stores and businesses means more jobs. More jobs means fewer people having to depend on public assistance and dispersing those concentrations of poverty.

Three cheers to Joe Mazzola for stating what apparently isn't so obvious to these short-sighted people.

KJP

Most of those assholes don't live in central Cleveland anyway (along with the homeless rights advocates, who I think need a fucking punch in the mouth).  I say if they want to make more segregated low income housing projects, and want people to be allowed to panhandle freestyle, then they should be happy to have it in their own neighborhoods.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2005, 03:54:48 PM »
So, has anyone heard of the alternative sites?  Why does the PD run a story saying that alternate sites will be announced, and then never announce those sites? 

Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2005, 05:57:24 PM »
^honestly what did you expect out of the PD?

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2005, 02:28:38 PM »
I can't think of a site in OC for a development of this scale...unless there's some industrial property along Detroit or something south of Lorain that they're talking about.  All the recent development has been rehabs or one side of a block...a lot of scattered stuff, but nothing monumental.  This, I'm assuming, is going to be the size of a Battery Park or thereabouts. 

Also, what will the future of the Riverview site be?  There's so much land to be developed both around the towers and behind the market, all the way from Lorain to Detroit.  But with the status of the hillside, what will it take to develop it?  What if we just built closer to West 25th and made the easternmost portion a winding park???  Sounds good to me!

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2005, 03:02:44 PM »

There really is a lot of parking lot space behind the market.  I wish that the parking could be consolidated in a garage fronting Lorain and housing placed on the existing lots.  It would be nice to create a pedestrian space along the produce alley from W. 25th leading into a new housing development. This would give the market square area even greater life.

The Ohio City newsletter said that the alternatives would be discussed at a meeting on wednesday night.  I haven't heard anything in the PD.  I wish I could have gone to the meeting, but I was not able to go.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 08:33:49 PM by wimwar »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2005, 08:01:27 PM »
West Side Housing Plan To Be Reviewed     
08-23-2005 8:25 AM

(Cleveland, OH) -- Planners of a public housing complex on Cleveland's west side are on a tight deadline. They want community response this week before submitting final plans to the federal government at the end of September. There are four sites under consideration in the Ohio City neighborhood. The original site near Riverside Towers was scrapped because of unstable ground. The public meetings are tomorrow and Thursday nights at Lutheran Hospital.


Copyright 2005 Metro Networks Communications Inc., A Westwood One Company 
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2005, 02:41:26 PM »
I saw this yesterday.  I hope this project succeeds.  The potential for greater high-density housing is very important for a flourishing area like Ohio City which, believe it or not, still has a ways to go before become that bustling, true 24-hour neighborhood we seek.  I, like you, hope that since development behind Riverview Towers was squelched b/c of the unstable hillside, building can be in tighter to the WS Market/Market Sq location.  The previous Hope VI development appeared a tad sprawling and more weighted toward the Detroit end where, of course, there's far less commercial activity and is cut off by Lutheran Hosp.

I hope people are not a little lackluster b/c of the public housing aspect, cause the far greater percentage of housing are market rate units.  I've really got my fingers crossed than this project can go forward and that all the neighborhood factional yelpers can cool it and work together.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2005, 08:56:53 AM »
I went to the meeting last night. It was pure chaos.  It was sad.  Many people were openly belligerent about the project--especially the West Side Market merchants. People fear density.  I hope that some people could go tonight and voice opinions in favor of higher density.   Or, at least send emails to OCNW ( info@ocnw.org ) saying that you support this project. I'll explain my thoughts more thoroughly at a later time.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2005, 10:41:01 AM »
I'll be attending tonight and will do my best not to sit on my hands...  more later!

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2005, 08:19:18 AM »
OK, last nights meeting---round two in this stage of public meetings about the project---was MUCH better, for what I understand.  I attended this meeting and there was never any feeling of things being out of control, though there were comments made with passion and unease and maybe a little bit of anger.  I'm pretty sure that OCNW, CMHA and Telesis went back to the office and said, "We've got to take control of the next meeting."  They brought in a facilitator who's lived in the neighborhood for nearly 30 years and the whole thing went a lot more smoothly.  That's not to say that people didn't get to speak their minds.  The difference, in my understanding, is that they were able to lay out more of the "givens" and "not givens" at the beginning, so that people would understand that the plans before them were not already set in stone, but merely the first version of a potential plan. 

That being said, the presentation went well (I'll post more on this when I'm at home) and the questions/comments/response were, for the most part, intelligent and well-answered (in my opinion).  The major concerns at this meeting were not about density, but about the urgency of the planning for this version and the rapidly-approaching deadline.  That deadline is the end of September and $8.5 million in federal dollars are attached to that date.  The question then becomes: do we rush into this proposal for the sake of keeping that funding or do we run a much greater risk of making a much more costly mistake if we don't take our time and get it right??? 

That's the most important question that I took out of this meeting.  Everyone's being rushed here...the developer, the CDC, the public...is it possible to get an extension? will the money definitely get pulled if we don't meet the deadline? will a plan thrown together in this short amount of time even get approval from HUD???  It's drastically different from the initial plan that CMHA received funding for in 1996, so there's still the possibility that HUD will say, "we understand that the parameters changed, but this isn't nearly what you proposed 9 years ago, so we are pulling the funding."  That's my understanding.

I'll post images, "givens" and "not givens" and other details later.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 08:22:01 AM by Mister Good Day »

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2005, 08:49:51 AM »
I've been wondering this for a while... but can anybody tell me why the hell it took them so long to get moving in the first place?  I remember seeing plans for this site maybe five years ago.

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2005, 05:17:02 PM »
They brought in a facilitator who's lived in the neighborhood for nearly 30 years and the whole thing went a lot more smoothly.

That facilitator was there the first night too. Didn't make a lick of difference!

Do we rush into this proposal for the sake of keeping that funding or do we run a much greater risk of making a much more costly mistake if we don't take our time and get it right???

I say submit the proposal; we can tweak it later. It calls for developing primarily vacant space and parking lots -- always a good idea IMO. Who knows when we'll get another chance at $8.5 million?

My current concerns would be in two areas: One, design -- but those details can be worked out later. I believe City Architecture is slated to be the designer of this stuff, and I trust them to turn out something decent. Two, I'm not sure Ohio City can sustain 300+ new units of market-rate housing. I live in the OC, and see lots of "for rent" signs in even the most desirable areas. Perhaps the number of market-rate units could be reduced before the project is actually built.

Oh, by the way, the plans and community feedback have been posted on a special page on the OCNW site: http://www.ocnw.org/index.cgi?id=130&p=5151
The person to send feedback to is Sheri Fointno, sfointno@ohiocity.org

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2005, 10:33:29 AM »
good lookin out, blinker.  they're taking comments up until September 1 or 2. 

I agree that there is concern over whether 300+ new market rate units can be absorbed in OC.  This was voiced at the Thursday night session and the response was that this will not all be built at once.  It can be done in phases and a schedule will be layed out after more studies of market demand, etc.

This is one of the things that has surprised me so much about the nearby Stonebridge development.  As unique and exciting as it is, it's pretty isolated in relation to existing neighborhoods, yet they've built several hundred units there over the past 4 years.  I don't know what their vacancy rates are, but I would say that if they can rent/sell all those units over on the Viaduct in that short period of time, then they should certainly be able to rent/sell the same amount located behind the West Side Market and in such close proximity to the Red Line, Dave's and all the other OC amenities. 

Another of the preferred elements of the original proposal, in my opinion, was that their units were a much easier sell.  It seems that townhouses are the way to go right now and so many of those units were townhouses on streets overlooking Downtown and the river.  The plan did much more to create a contiguous urban fabric, whereas the primary element of the current plan (the site behind the WSM) will just plop down a few towers and a garage without doing much for the street level.  This, of course, all remains to be seen in the design phase...

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2005, 11:00:26 AM »
The original plan, scrapped due to unstable terrain:







The new plan, which is still highly conceptual, features:
  48 units at Detroit Avenue & West 28th Street (8 affordable)
  74 units at Church Avenue & West 28th Street (12 affordable)
  268 units at Bridge Avenue & West 24th Street (49 affordable)
  12 units at West 41st & Lorain Avenue (all affordable)

I have more details on these sites and they are not necessarily the only ones being considered.  The following are two images from the meeting.

This map shows the locations of the four sites proposed above (I've highlighted them for you!):


This is a perspective view of what the building heights and density would look like:



Offline M Bajak 84

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2005, 11:34:39 AM »
CMHA officials will ask to extend deadline on delayed Riverview project
Sunday, September 11, 2005

Angela D. Chatman
Plain Dealer Reporter

Local housing officials will ask for an extension on the long-delayed Riverview HOPE VI project even as they prepare to meet a Sept. 30 deadline for revised plans.

The request means asking the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development to agree to revised "locked" checkpoints for the project, said Scott Pollock, director of real estate and development for the Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority.

For instance, CMHA would ask for a deadline of June 30, 2006, for finishing project financing. The original deadline was June 30, 2003...

more at:  http://www.cleveland.com

« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 01:21:53 PM by McCleveland »

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2005, 02:24:10 PM »
It ticks me off that the Hicks lot was ruled out just because some West Side Market tenants were worried about losing overflow parking. A real example of how the WS market (especially longtime tenants) views itself as separate from the neighborhood -- since maintaining parking is about continuing to accommodate commuters, while new construction would be about building the neighborhood consumer base.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2005, 03:56:08 PM »
I won't be able to go to this tomorrow night...who's gonna step up???


CMHA plans will be aired

Thursday, September 15, 2005
By DAVID PLATA
West Side Sun News

Councilman Joe Cimperman said he will object to plans by Cleveland Metropolitan Housing Authority _ still to be made public _ to build up to 350 mixed-income housing units in the area of Columbus Road.

But George Phillips, CMHA director, said the plan has not been finalized, and would call for fewer units than that _ about 100-150.

That's one of the sites we're looking at, Phillips said. We're talking with RTA. There's nothing final yet, nothing definite.

Neither Cimperman nor Phillips could say how many acres are at the site, on either side of Regional Transit Authority tracks. Phillips said the plan calls for both mid-rise and high-rise buildings.

The plans are to be aired at a public meeting at 6:30 p.m. Tuesday at the Castele Learning Center at Lutheran Hospital.

What I understand is it's going to call for creation of one big block of housing, said Cimperman, D-13. A lot of people are concerned about that. You don't want to create something that is exactly why you went through the whole HOPE VI process in the first place. The whole idea is to de-densify, to have people living in places that are more _ not single-unit, but certainly less than this massive wall of housing.

Residents in the area of West 20th Street and Abbey Road are very, very concerned about the plan, Cimperman said.

CMHA faces a Sept. 30 deadline to tell the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development how it will spend some $8.5 million remaining in a HOPE VI grant. The money was awarded in 1996 to build some 420 units on the bluff behind the authority's Riverview Towers on West 25th Street.

However, geotechnical studies later showed the land is so unstable that it can't be built upon, and CMHA has been scrambling to find alternate sites.

Phillips also said CMHA is asking the federal government for an extension of so-called checkpoint dates in the timeline process, totaling about a year, to find suitable sites and finalize the plan.

Cimperman said he also wants a time extension.

I don't think we should settle for a plan that comes in second place when, with a little more time, we could get what we want, he said.

Councilman Nelson Cintrn Jr., D-14, has said he objects to plans to build three high-rises, totaling 268 units, along with a two- to three-story parking deck, on the so-called Hicks Lot next to the West Side Market.

Both Cintrn and Phillips have said they are in discussions with RTA to build a high-rise atop RTA's West 25th Street-Ohio City station. From 120-160 units could be built there, Phillips has said.

Joe Mazzola, director of Ohio City Near West Development Corp., noted the Hicks Lot plan has essentially been rejected, and called the plans for Columbus Road Plan C.

I'll know more about it when CMHA meets with our board, he said.

CMHA is developing the plans with Telesis Corp. of Washington, D.C.

In addition to the Hicks Lot, according to preliminary plans, 74 units would be built at West 28th Street and Church Avenue; 48 would be built at West 28th and Detroit Avenue; and 12 would be built at West 41st Street and Lorain Avenue, on land owned by Ohio City Near West Development Corp.

[end]

it sounds like there's plenty of dissent among the council members that serve this area, let alone the residents and merchants...It's also interesting to hear that OCNW has already declared the Hicks proposal dead...
« Last Edit: September 19, 2005, 04:48:31 PM by Mister Good Day »

Offline blinker12

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2005, 11:38:43 AM »
Weird... I thought they were going to announce new construction over the RTA tracks. Anyway, looks like enough people are up in arms about the Duck Island proposal to through another cog in the wheel of this development. Meantime, only 8 days left til the deadline! Is the whole thing going to die? That would be a real shame...
I don't get these reactions we're getting from neighborhood residents. God forbid we have density in a city neighborhood...  :roll:

Housing project too dense, Duck Island residents say
Thursday, September 22, 2005
Angela D. Chatman
Plain Dealer Reporter
Residents of a near West Side neighborhood criticized a mixed-income housing project planned for that area for its high density Tuesday night.

Residents of what is known as Duck Island, southeast of the West Side Market, said the Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority's proposal to build 242 housing units along Columbus Road would alter the nature of their neighborhood.

CMHA and its co-developer, the Telesis Corp., identified the property owned by the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority as the fourth, and largest, site for housing in its long-delayed Riverview HOPE VI project. The CMHA parcel would replace the city-owned Hicks parking lot as the site for the bulk of the housing.

The housing authority proposes to build 384 units, including 81 public-housing units, on four sites... 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1127381464308751.xml&coll=2
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 01:24:31 PM by McCleveland »

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #88 on: September 22, 2005, 07:36:51 PM »
Let's be honest, it's not the density, it's the CMHA/low income portion that's scaring people.  I wish folks could just be honest.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Ohio City & Market District Developments
« Reply #89 on: September 22, 2005, 09:18:17 PM »
Considering the economic status of Duck Island, I would guess that its more a matter of race than income.