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Author Topic: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News  (Read 29963 times)

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Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2670 on: February 09, 2018, 03:50:34 PM »
^^True--or everything will be sold off to private developers and we'd have a North Coast bridge toll to walk to the harbor!

Cross posting this from the Detroit thread--in my estimation this is what we'd all like to see solve this problem here in Cleveland!

Woodward's I-75 overpass may be widened by 60 feet for new retail space

In 2016, MDOT put out a request for proposals for what it calls the Fisher Freeway Downtown Crossings project, which in the proposal Olympia estimates to cost $10 million to $15 million.

The Detroit-based development company, which did not respond to emailed questions, says in the proposal that two retail buildings — a 6,150-square-foot building on the west and a 3,000-square-foot building on the east side of the bridge — would be built on 40-foot and 20-foot expansions, respectively.

Olympia is seeking funding from the U.S. Department of Transportation through the Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery, or TIGER, program for 80 percent of the costs for the first phase, which is the bridge expansion.

More below:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20180206/blog016/652336/woodwards-i-75-overpass-may-be-widened-by-60-feet-for-new-retail



Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2671 on: February 09, 2018, 03:51:10 PM »
Can't blame Trump or anyone else in DC if Cleveland isn't proposing to do it.  The only official proposals I've seen are for footbridges whose construction could make a rail station impossible. 

When we built the new convention center, not one local official asked them to give it a north facing door.  Not one local official wanted to connect this massive investment to the lakefront or RTA or Amtrak.

Offline OC17

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2672 on: February 10, 2018, 10:35:42 AM »
Can't blame Trump or anyone else in DC if Cleveland isn't proposing to do it.  The only official proposals I've seen are for footbridges whose construction could make a rail station impossible. 

When we built the new convention center, not one local official asked them to give it a north facing door.  Not one local official wanted to connect this massive investment to the lakefront or RTA or Amtrak.

Add in lackluster to inept Cleveland representation in Washington DC and you get -0-.

Offline tastybunns

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2673 on: February 11, 2018, 04:43:11 AM »
The way they have some of their freeways in Paris, France. They actually subduct underneat the financial district. You drive in a tunnel which basically cuts through the entirety of that district, it was kinda neat just driving in the tunnel towards the big buildings, and then popping out driving away from them. Also Cincinnati is somewhat planning on capping an entire section of a freeway

Anyway, here's a before shot:



...and here's one where I dumped some greenspace in the target slots - please, if I got this wrong, let me know...and if anyone wants to use my photo to screw around making a rendering of what they envision, or to correct my errors, I hereby grant permission to use it, and bend it to your will!




It can be done, it's not impossible, I'd love to see this done not only for the crossing between lakefront and malls, but the entirety of i-90 through Cleveland. Would really get rid of an eyesore, plus we could build on them, a downtown bike trail rather than bike lanes making it a more scenic route. Do you know how much CSU would benefit from this? What other green space does CSU have besides the courtyard? Or you could build more buildings for retail and residential. MORE SPACE! Who doesn't like more space?

So the Malls are dead, and there's already alot of room for change. I'm surprised there aren't shaded areas on those lawns. We're missing a massive chance to become forest city again, and to be even remotely close to Savannah, Georgia's historic parks with drooping willows over every pathway.
I'm also surprised there's no stage for performances atop the Huntington center, would make an excellent small performance venue. Its outside, and even with a lawn incline like Blossom. This will bring business.
In order to attract food, bars, and other small shops, you need an attraction for the area. No one just up's and says, "Yeah I'm going over to Linndale for their culture." culture of handing out unlawful speeding tickets that's for sure. Nobody goes to Linndale for the food or culture because there is none. It's only a small part of Cleveland that just wont fold. Basically the same goes with the malls. Private owned land that just wont give up and have no idea on how to improve themselves.

Offline OC17

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2674 on: February 11, 2018, 05:10:12 PM »
I stayed at the Westin hotel on my first real visit to Cleveland (as an adult at least), and when I left the hotel to go explore, I was naturally drawn west toward the malls, Public Square, Terminal Tower, etc. I found the malls and the buildings around them to be beautiful, but very dead. I don't think I saw a single retail outpost between the Westin and Public Square. I also remember looking at the lake and the Rock Hall from the end of the malls, and wanting to go down there, and being a bit puzzled on how to do so. I ended up going down to the Lake to watch the sunset that night, and 9th street actually was very convenient to the hotel, but the connection of the malls to the lake should definitely be a priority.

It's interesting that both Santa Monica and Chicago have their waterfront districts cut off from the rest of the city by pretty huge barriers. I mean, just to get down to the beach in Santa Monica, you have to scale a cliff and cross a bridge over the PCH. Chicago has Lakeshore cutting off their lakefront, too. The whole 'freeway by the water' thing was a pretty huge misstep in urban planning, but these cities show that people will overcome barriers to get to places they want to go. Cleveland's lakefront is a place that people want to go. It's beautiful and peaceful, and it's an asset that Columbus and Cincinnati and most other Midwestern cities don't have. I don't know what the solution is for increased connectivity, and I don't know if a long pedestrian bridge from a pretty much dead zone (malls) is the answer, but it's worth looking into. Is there anyway for the grid to be extended to the lake? On paper it looks like maybe Mall Dr. could be extended, but I don't know if that's logistically possible at all. I think that a real street would be preferable to a pedestrian bridge, as it would almost certainly be more active and lively, and would be more intuitive for visitors as well.

Cleveland's Mall is still a great public-civic asset despite lackluster use.  The Mall is a great walking cross-thru point in downtown Cleveland and all 3 components of the Mall are beautifu again.  I would include Cleveland's Mall as a top U.S. city urban vista and enjoying the amazing architectural variety the Mall offers is reason enough to hang-around the area a bit longer than rushing through.

The Mall generally should be used as the nexus to the lakefront, shifting it away from the urban highway known as E 9th Street with, Gateway anchored to the south and North Coasts Harbor to the north, and include Public Square to the southwest.  Walking from say, Gateway and hopefully the nuCLEus project north along either E 4th Street or indoor via the 5th Street Arcades, to Euclid Avenue.  Then either a revamped E 6th Street or The Old Arcade indoors to Superior, enter the Mall via Eastman Reading Garden or E 3rd or continue on E 6th.

Mall A could use some green cover outside the main Memorial plaza, and perhaps the Drury and Marriott could step up some outdoor use on both properties, to create some reasons to hang-around a bit.  This section of the Mall is also Public Square's main access as well.

Mall B is a great space.  The lawn is amazing but one almost doesn't want to walk on it due to its mostly pristine appearance.  Maybe adding public events on Mall B (concerts, movies etc) could spark some long-term daily use.  I've seen pick-up touch football games, frisbee tossing etc going on but it would be nice to see people on the lawn more.

Mall C looks as if the Mall Plan wasn't completed as one expects to be able to head directly to the lakefront when approaching from the south.  Instead, one hits a barrier and looks to busy E 9th Street as a way to get ''down'' or ''over there''.  E 9th Street being a 6-lane urban highway with 9 automobile ingress/egress points from Lakeside to the pier parking entry point. 

The freeway by the water thing was done at a time when urban waterfronts were used by industry, not leisure activities.  Cleveland is not unique in the ''accessing its waterfront'' issue and should play up its somewhat rare to have water-vista sunsets considering that the big east coast cities and even Chicago can't offer.  Cities like Cincinnati have plans to ''cap'' its waterfront highways and Philly is currently in the early stages of capping I-95 along a section of its waterfront.

Cleveland should decide on a plan for its waterfront; pedestrian bridge, platform-cap, or land bridge to name a few options.  Bottom-line is something needs to be done from Mall C to North Coast Harbor.  It's never too late to complete Burnham's Mall Plan.

Offline OC17

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2675 on: February 11, 2018, 05:17:11 PM »
The way they have some of their freeways in Paris, France. They actually subduct underneat the financial district. You drive in a tunnel which basically cuts through the entirety of that district, it was kinda neat just driving in the tunnel towards the big buildings, and then popping out driving away from them. Also Cincinnati is somewhat planning on capping an entire section of a freeway

Anyway, here's a before shot:



...and here's one where I dumped some greenspace in the target slots - please, if I got this wrong, let me know...and if anyone wants to use my photo to screw around making a rendering of what they envision, or to correct my errors, I hereby grant permission to use it, and bend it to your will!




It can be done, it's not impossible, I'd love to see this done not only for the crossing between lakefront and malls, but the entirety of i-90 through Cleveland. Would really get rid of an eyesore, plus we could build on them, a downtown bike trail rather than bike lanes making it a more scenic route. Do you know how much CSU would benefit from this? What other green space does CSU have besides the courtyard? Or you could build more buildings for retail and residential. MORE SPACE! Who doesn't like more space?

So the Malls are dead, and there's already alot of room for change. I'm surprised there aren't shaded areas on those lawns. We're missing a massive chance to become forest city again, and to be even remotely close to Savannah, Georgia's historic parks with drooping willows over every pathway.
I'm also surprised there's no stage for performances atop the Huntington center, would make an excellent small performance venue. Its outside, and even with a lawn incline like Blossom. This will bring business.
In order to attract food, bars, and other small shops, you need an attraction for the area. No one just up's and says, "Yeah I'm going over to Linndale for their culture." culture of handing out unlawful speeding tickets that's for sure. Nobody goes to Linndale for the food or culture because there is none. It's only a small part of Cleveland that just wont fold. Basically the same goes with the malls. Private owned land that just wont give up and have no idea on how to improve themselves.

"Capping'' is a trend for examples like this in Cincinnati for waterfront access but in places like D.C. where ''interior highways'' are being capped with commercial office buildings. 

This photo really shows how much damage highways did to Cincinnati.  Not only was its riverfront access cut-off with a long and abrupt barrier wall-cutoff but that giant spaghetti bowl to the west of downtown is jaw-dropping. 

This is a candidate for poster child picture for urban highway damage to a city.  There's no way that area west of downtown is 'cap'-able.  That Los Angeles style highway mish-mash is way outsized for a Cincinnati-size city.  The Cincinnati ''spaghetti-bowl'' almost, arguably does, dominate downtown Cincinnati's aerial view.

The riverfront connection has potential but that's a large area to cap and will cost lots of $.  The post-version pic has too many streets connecting to the riverfront.  May want to cut out a street, if possible; maybe the streetcar would be used more with less roadway access to the riverfront in the capped parts.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 05:25:51 PM by OC17 »

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2676 on: February 11, 2018, 05:24:54 PM »
The way they have some of their freeways in Paris, France. They actually subduct underneat the financial district. You drive in a tunnel which basically cuts through the entirety of that district, it was kinda neat just driving in the tunnel towards the big buildings, and then popping out driving away from them. Also Cincinnati is somewhat planning on capping an entire section of a freeway

There are crazy tunnels all over Europe, Japan and Australia like this.  In my travels, I've driven through one in Brisbane Australia that is crazy long (Clem Jones Tunnel)

as well as one in Oslo on the way in from the airport: 

It's amazing what you can build when these kinds of projects have oversight from corruption (Boston's "Big Dig", cough cough) and a country is willing to spend on infrastructure instead of new fighter planes that the military doesn't want and $800 toilet seats.

Offline freefourur

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2677 on: February 11, 2018, 05:32:32 PM »
I stayed at the Westin hotel on my first real visit to Cleveland (as an adult at least), and when I left the hotel to go explore, I was naturally drawn west toward the malls, Public Square, Terminal Tower, etc. I found the malls and the buildings around them to be beautiful, but very dead. I don't think I saw a single retail outpost between the Westin and Public Square. I also remember looking at the lake and the Rock Hall from the end of the malls, and wanting to go down there, and being a bit puzzled on how to do so. I ended up going down to the Lake to watch the sunset that night, and 9th street actually was very convenient to the hotel, but the connection of the malls to the lake should definitely be a priority.

It's interesting that both Santa Monica and Chicago have their waterfront districts cut off from the rest of the city by pretty huge barriers. I mean, just to get down to the beach in Santa Monica, you have to scale a cliff and cross a bridge over the PCH. Chicago has Lakeshore cutting off their lakefront, too. The whole 'freeway by the water' thing was a pretty huge misstep in urban planning, but these cities show that people will overcome barriers to get to places they want to go. Cleveland's lakefront is a place that people want to go. It's beautiful and peaceful, and it's an asset that Columbus and Cincinnati and most other Midwestern cities don't have. I don't know what the solution is for increased connectivity, and I don't know if a long pedestrian bridge from a pretty much dead zone (malls) is the answer, but it's worth looking into. Is there anyway for the grid to be extended to the lake? On paper it looks like maybe Mall Dr. could be extended, but I don't know if that's logistically possible at all. I think that a real street would be preferable to a pedestrian bridge, as it would almost certainly be more active and lively, and would be more intuitive for visitors as well.

Cleveland's Mall is still a great public-civic asset despite lackluster use.  The Mall is a great walking cross-thru point in downtown Cleveland and all 3 components of the Mall are beautifu again.  I would include Cleveland's Mall as a top U.S. city urban vista and enjoying the amazing architectural variety the Mall offers is reason enough to hang-around the area a bit longer than rushing through.

The Mall generally should be used as the nexus to the lakefront, shifting it away from the urban highway known as E 9th Street with, Gateway anchored to the south and North Coasts Harbor to the north, and include Public Square to the southwest.  Walking from say, Gateway and hopefully the nuCLEus project north along either E 4th Street or indoor via the 5th Street Arcades, to Euclid Avenue.  Then either a revamped E 6th Street or The Old Arcade indoors to Superior, enter the Mall via Eastman Reading Garden or E 3rd or continue on E 6th.

Mall A could use some green cover outside the main Memorial plaza, and perhaps the Drury and Marriott could step up some outdoor use on both properties, to create some reasons to hang-around a bit.  This section of the Mall is also Public Square's main access as well.

Mall B is a great space.  The lawn is amazing but one almost doesn't want to walk on it due to its mostly pristine appearance.  Maybe adding public events on Mall B (concerts, movies etc) could spark some long-term daily use.  I've seen pick-up touch football games, frisbee tossing etc going on but it would be nice to see people on the lawn more.

Mall C looks as if the Mall Plan wasn't completed as one expects to be able to head directly to the lakefront when approaching from the south.  Instead, one hits a barrier and looks to busy E 9th Street as a way to get ''down'' or ''over there''.  E 9th Street being a 6-lane urban highway with 9 automobile ingress/egress points from Lakeside to the pier parking entry point. 

The freeway by the water thing was done at a time when urban waterfronts were used by industry, not leisure activities.  Cleveland is not unique in the ''accessing its waterfront'' issue and should play up its somewhat rare to have water-vista sunsets considering that the big east coast cities and even Chicago can't offer.  Cities like Cincinnati have plans to ''cap'' its waterfront highways and Philly is currently in the early stages of capping I-95 along a section of its waterfront.

Cleveland should decide on a plan for its waterfront; pedestrian bridge, platform-cap, or land bridge to name a few options.  Bottom-line is something needs to be done from Mall C to North Coast Harbor.  It's never too late to complete Burnham's Mall Plan.

I wish the malls were less formal.  I'd like to see more north-south walkways through the middle.  Don't get me started on the ridiculous Convention Center "ramp."  The malls have so much potential but are way underutilized now.

Offline viscomi

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2678 on: February 11, 2018, 05:41:26 PM »
Ugh, the mall B incline. All this time, and that has still not grown on me one bit. They ruined the whole stretch with that, in my mind. To the point where I wish we would just build on mall B to give A and C life.

Offline CbusTransit

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2679 on: February 11, 2018, 05:50:02 PM »
I went to the new years eve concert on the mall years ago when they were trying that out...and i gotta say, when you have that many people on the mall at once, you can really feel that you are standing on the roof of a building. It was really rather disconcerting.

Offline dave2017

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2680 on: February 11, 2018, 08:23:10 PM »
Ugh, the mall B incline. All this time, and that has still not grown on me one bit. They ruined the whole stretch with that, in my mind. To the point where I wish we would just build on mall B to give A and C life.

I remember reading that any further improvements/enhancements to The Malls was put on hold by The Group Plan Commission and Land Studio once The Drury Hotel and The Hilton were open to see how people were using the  area. Without any programming added to this area there is little reason to hang out. Very little shaded areas during the summer months . The  overlook at the end of Mall C is odd to look out at the Amtrak Station ,freeway, and tracks. 

I don't understand why Public Square is the only space with programming and not the Malls.  GGN, landscape architects of the renovated malls, included the ice rink, concert staging, enhanced room gardens, farmer's markets, public art, basketball courts, children's play areas, an interactive water feature , and a restaurant cafe.  Instead all those elements were moved to Public Square. Once again The Malls were neglected.   

Since The Group Plan Commission is in charge of both spaces shouldn't they be programming both equally.  This should  include keeping  us informed of their plans for the pedestrian connector bridge.

I would love to see the Cleveland Museum Of Art take over programming the space with public art.  I also wish  Mall B was returned to a level surface and the entrance removed along Lakeside.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 11:20:11 PM by dave2017 »

Offline OC17

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2681 on: February 11, 2018, 10:26:47 PM »
The way they have some of their freeways in Paris, France. They actually subduct underneat the financial district. You drive in a tunnel which basically cuts through the entirety of that district, it was kinda neat just driving in the tunnel towards the big buildings, and then popping out driving away from them. Also Cincinnati is somewhat planning on capping an entire section of a freeway

Anyway, here's a before shot:



...and here's one where I dumped some greenspace in the target slots - please, if I got this wrong, let me know...and if anyone wants to use my photo to screw around making a rendering of what they envision, or to correct my errors, I hereby grant permission to use it, and bend it to your will!




It can be done, it's not impossible, I'd love to see this done not only for the crossing between lakefront and malls, but the entirety of i-90 through Cleveland. Would really get rid of an eyesore, plus we could build on them, a downtown bike trail rather than bike lanes making it a more scenic route. Do you know how much CSU would benefit from this? What other green space does CSU have besides the courtyard? Or you could build more buildings for retail and residential. MORE SPACE! Who doesn't like more space?

So the Malls are dead, and there's already alot of room for change. I'm surprised there aren't shaded areas on those lawns. We're missing a massive chance to become forest city again, and to be even remotely close to Savannah, Georgia's historic parks with drooping willows over every pathway.
I'm also surprised there's no stage for performances atop the Huntington center, would make an excellent small performance venue. Its outside, and even with a lawn incline like Blossom. This will bring business.
In order to attract food, bars, and other small shops, you need an attraction for the area. No one just up's and says, "Yeah I'm going over to Linndale for their culture." culture of handing out unlawful speeding tickets that's for sure. Nobody goes to Linndale for the food or culture because there is none. It's only a small part of Cleveland that just wont fold. Basically the same goes with the malls. Private owned land that just wont give up and have no idea on how to improve themselves.

Looking at these pics again, is there another spaghetti bowl highway mish-mosh to the east of downtown Cincinnati as well?  Sure looks like it but the pics are cut-off to the east of downtown Cincinnati.  I know that's I-71 running northeast but just adjacent to east end downtown looks bleak and Los Angeles like again.

I guess that's the 1950s consequence of having I-71 and I-75 meshing and connecting in a CBD.

That's a lot of concrete highway/s dominating Cincinnati as the CBD doesn't look that large.  It looks overwhelmed and hemmed-in to the east and west by highway spaghetti-bowls.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 11:27:00 PM by OC17 »

Offline tastybunns

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2682 on: February 12, 2018, 05:14:07 AM »
Agreed, the time to undo our highways is now. Detroit is actually getting rid of i-375 which runs right downtown. Who says we cant undo i-90 to prevent deadman's curve and neighborhood splitting. Instead of just having 50 exits per mile, it would be way more efficient if there were highways that completely bypassed big cities to avoid any big city traffic. 90 runs from seattle to boston, so i imagine there's alot of thru traffic. There's no more industry on the lakefront, so its best to just get rid of anything that blocks the way of the lakefront...

Here's what I'd do:

======================================================================================================================
Red, and salmon color are the current routes for i-90, but salmon is the portion i'd rip out from black to black line, and probably repave roads to be mid to high density city streets, definitely not for bike lanes, should just be an outlet into downtown rather than make a 90 degree angle away from the lakefront.
Blue indicates a better route completely bypassing cleveland's urban core shooting from i-490, where the dashed blue indicates subducted/ bored road. As you can sort of see the dashed blue lines emerge out from the Cuyahoga airport that nobody uses and connects without any sharp edges to i-271. This completely opens up our shoreway, opens up neighborhoods and would even open up new development along the shoreway even.
======================================================================================================================

Sorry the concept art isnt top tier, but it's what i'd do to revitalize downtown's lakefront. This of course would only leave us the task of bridging over the railroad tracks which could also be built over top of via land bridges, capping, and even tunneling. It's ok to have highways end up in downtown, but the real problem comes when they run through downtown. The way i-490 happens to just exist before i-77 is kind of how it should work. If my plans were to go through, the past route of the innerbelt would be much safer. There wouldn't be as much traffic traveling towards you where lanes just abruptly end as they begin on i-90.  It would already begin as i-77/ i-71.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 05:16:15 AM by tastybunns »

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2683 on: February 12, 2018, 07:32:14 AM »
No one is building new highways anymore. The cost is too high and the permitting will take forever, especially in air quality non-attainment regions like ours.  Combinations of high cost and permitting means that even the rebuild of a highly traveled Interstate like the Inner Belt near downtown will take forever. The planning for that began 20 years ago and construction of it will continue to occur segment-by-segment well into the next decade and possibly beyond.

And while Interstate 90 runs from coast to coast, most of the travel on every Interstate is highly localized within metro areas. Very little traffic, i.e. 2% to 5% of a 100-200 mile intercity segment between metro areas, actually travels the entire distance (or beyond) between the two closest metros (like Cleveland - Buffalo). About 75% of that intercity segment's vehicle-miles traveled is within each metro area. The rest is traveling between rural counties, and from rural counties to metro areas. Interstates are in name only.
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Offline gottaplan

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2684 on: February 12, 2018, 08:42:41 AM »
^no one?  Ever been to Texas?

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2685 on: February 12, 2018, 09:27:27 AM »
Texas is it's own country.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline PIB Guy

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2686 on: February 12, 2018, 09:51:45 AM »
Jacksonville and Charlotte are still finishing up some highways.  Atlanta may not have any new ones going on right now, but within the past 5 years, they did. 

Offline OC17

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2687 on: February 12, 2018, 02:01:32 PM »
Agreed, the time to undo our highways is now. Detroit is actually getting rid of i-375 which runs right downtown. Who says we cant undo i-90 to prevent deadman's curve and neighborhood splitting. Instead of just having 50 exits per mile, it would be way more efficient if there were highways that completely bypassed big cities to avoid any big city traffic. 90 runs from seattle to boston, so i imagine there's alot of thru traffic. There's no more industry on the lakefront, so its best to just get rid of anything that blocks the way of the lakefront...

Here's what I'd do:

======================================================================================================================
Red, and salmon color are the current routes for i-90, but salmon is the portion i'd rip out from black to black line, and probably repave roads to be mid to high density city streets, definitely not for bike lanes, should just be an outlet into downtown rather than make a 90 degree angle away from the lakefront.
Blue indicates a better route completely bypassing cleveland's urban core shooting from i-490, where the dashed blue indicates subducted/ bored road. As you can sort of see the dashed blue lines emerge out from the Cuyahoga airport that nobody uses and connects without any sharp edges to i-271. This completely opens up our shoreway, opens up neighborhoods and would even open up new development along the shoreway even.
======================================================================================================================

Sorry the concept art isnt top tier, but it's what i'd do to revitalize downtown's lakefront. This of course would only leave us the task of bridging over the railroad tracks which could also be built over top of via land bridges, capping, and even tunneling. It's ok to have highways end up in downtown, but the real problem comes when they run through downtown. The way i-490 happens to just exist before i-77 is kind of how it should work. If my plans were to go through, the past route of the innerbelt would be much safer. There wouldn't be as much traffic traveling towards you where lanes just abruptly end as they begin on i-90.  It would already begin as i-77/ i-71.

I prefer the current configuration over the proposed re-route through the east side, including directly cutting into University Circle.  The I-490 extension to E 105/Chester is the Opportunity Corridor (a wide boulevard) which is as good as it will get with access into the CC/UC areas. 

Cities do have highways avoiding the city, in Cleveland it's I-271 or I-480.

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2688 on: February 12, 2018, 02:05:28 PM »
Let's get back onto Lakefront development, people.

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2689 on: February 13, 2018, 07:34:17 AM »
This thread came to mind as I was driving in front of the Rock Hall and GLSC yesterday.  As we sit on this forum and talk grandiose plans of capped highways and bridges to our famed lakefront destination, Erieside Ave (the actual street in front of the attractions) is a rutted, pothole filled mess.  I see many streets in Cleveland that are as bad or worse as places like San Juan Puerto Rico or Mexico City, but I would at least expect the city to maintain and repair one that tourists drive on every day.  NOPE!

Offline mack34

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2690 on: February 13, 2018, 08:10:09 AM »
^ PREACH....that is one of the most embarrassing streets in Cleveland.  And its een like that for years.  Fix it!!

Offline bjk

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2691 on: February 13, 2018, 09:16:47 AM »
I imagine streets get fixed in Cleveland when enough voters yell at their councilperson about a particular problem, then the councilperson yells at the streets commissioner, then eventually a foreman gets yelled at, and something will get fixed a month later.

No voters live on that street.

Offline tastybunns

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2692 on: February 14, 2018, 02:03:55 AM »
i-90 is part of the lakefront is it not, X?

Online X

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2693 on: February 14, 2018, 02:07:37 AM »
I-90 along the lakefront is indeed part of the lakefront.  I-90 not along the lakefront is not.  The Malls are not a part of the Lakefront.  Highways being built in Charlotte or Texas are not a part of the Cleveland lakefront.  Cincinnati's highway spaghetti is not a part of Cleveland's lakefront.

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2694 on: February 14, 2018, 07:48:16 AM »
I imagine streets get fixed in Cleveland when enough voters yell at their councilperson about a particular problem, then the councilperson yells at the streets commissioner, then eventually a foreman gets yelled at, and something will get fixed a month later.

No voters live on that street.

I can't believe that the Rock Hall, GLSC and Cleveland Browns don't all complain about it...

Offline OC17

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2695 on: February 14, 2018, 09:48:28 AM »
I-90 along the lakefront is indeed part of the lakefront.  I-90 not along the lakefront is not.  The Malls are not a part of the Lakefront.  Highways being built in Charlotte or Texas are not a part of the Cleveland lakefront.  Cincinnati's highway spaghetti is not a part of Cleveland's lakefront.
I beg to differ that the Malls and what other cities are facing in dealing with waterfronts would not be a part of discussing Cleveland’s lakefront.  The Malls discussion is part of accessing the lakefront downtown; a long-term issue in Cleveland. A bridge from Mall C to NCH is the lakefront and the Malls as a cohesive unit in “people flow” to and from the lakefront should be a part of the discussion.

Objecting only to Cincinnati’s spaghetti bowl highway clusters is misplaced. Why no objection to bringing Cincinnati into the discussion at all? The spaghetti bowls are a part of Cincinnati’s waterfront problem. Otherwise, how is Cincinnati’s riverfront a part of Cleveland’s lakefront?

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2696 on: February 14, 2018, 10:59:39 AM »
Objecting only to Cincinnati’s spaghetti bowl highway clusters is misplaced. Why no objection to bringing Cincinnati into the discussion at all? The spaghetti bowls are a part of Cincinnati’s waterfront problem. Otherwise, how is Cincinnati’s riverfront a part of Cleveland’s lakefront?

I think it's important to compare and contrast other waterfronts to gauge what can and should happen in Cleveland. Capping proposals in Cincy and projets in places like Chicago and Baltimore help to provide context.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2697 on: February 14, 2018, 11:07:44 AM »
Daley had real balls when he bulldozed those X's because of "9-11," and the city is far better for it. Northerly Island is a gem desire some setbacks with erosion.

But I just can't see Jackson doing the same. Different kind of mayor.

So flipping the bird at the FCC, stranding aircraft, forcing the diversion of an incoming flight, and assertively flouting federal law is okay if the end is desirable?

Daley should have arrested and the city fined heavily.

Offline E Rocc

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2698 on: February 14, 2018, 11:17:14 AM »
Agreed, the time to undo our highways is now. Detroit is actually getting rid of i-375 which runs right downtown. Who says we cant undo i-90 to prevent deadman's curve and neighborhood splitting. Instead of just having 50 exits per mile, it would be way more efficient if there were highways that completely bypassed big cities to avoid any big city traffic. 90 runs from seattle to boston, so i imagine there's alot of thru traffic. There's no more industry on the lakefront, so its best to just get rid of anything that blocks the way of the lakefront...

Here's what I'd do:

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Red, and salmon color are the current routes for i-90, but salmon is the portion i'd rip out from black to black line, and probably repave roads to be mid to high density city streets, definitely not for bike lanes, should just be an outlet into downtown rather than make a 90 degree angle away from the lakefront.
Blue indicates a better route completely bypassing cleveland's urban core shooting from i-490, where the dashed blue indicates subducted/ bored road. As you can sort of see the dashed blue lines emerge out from the Cuyahoga airport that nobody uses and connects without any sharp edges to i-271. This completely opens up our shoreway, opens up neighborhoods and would even open up new development along the shoreway even.
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Sorry the concept art isnt top tier, but it's what i'd do to revitalize downtown's lakefront. This of course would only leave us the task of bridging over the railroad tracks which could also be built over top of via land bridges, capping, and even tunneling. It's ok to have highways end up in downtown, but the real problem comes when they run through downtown. The way i-490 happens to just exist before i-77 is kind of how it should work. If my plans were to go through, the past route of the innerbelt would be much safer. There wouldn't be as much traffic traveling towards you where lanes just abruptly end as they begin on i-90.  It would already begin as i-77/ i-71.

You're really playing SimCity here once you get past the old power plant.   There is basically no way in hades that any government entity is going to spend billions of dollars to inconvenience taxpayers because they don't live the way the planners want them to.   

Taking this further, the removed freeway wouldnot infill quickly, if at all, so there would be a great big gap still “splitting neighborhoods”.   Which, quite frankly, would be the preference of the people living north of 90.  Sometimes splitting one area from another helps one of them thrive.
Also, while there isn’t industry on the lakefront, there’s plenty along 90.  Some closed, but by no means all.

 

Offline bjk

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Re: Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News
« Reply #2699 on: February 14, 2018, 11:34:44 AM »
I imagine streets get fixed in Cleveland when enough voters yell at their councilperson about a particular problem, then the councilperson yells at the streets commissioner, then eventually a foreman gets yelled at, and something will get fixed a month later.

No voters live on that street.

I can't believe that the Rock Hall, GLSC and Cleveland Browns don't all complain about it...

Until they threaten to fund someone running against the current councilperson, their complaints won't be a priority.