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Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: Mall Development and News  (Read 2839 times)

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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2010, 10:01:26 AM »
Because everyone brings their kids & grandparents to work!

The discussion on this point revolved around making the malls somewhere that suburban families would WANT to go on evenings and weekends.

I was commenting on the statement itself, one that seems contradictory.  Kinda like my "vibrant" pet peeve... failure to acknowledge that family-friendly and after-work are not at all the same constituencies.  Efforts to please both could end up pleasing neither.  Just a bit of bad writing.  Halfway down the article it's made clear that these were two entirely different suggestions, which makes more sense.

Any further details about the meeting?  The item from the article that most caught my eye was the bit about public restrooms.  Awkward to talk about... but necessary... restroom access is a factor I have to consider when planning outings with my parents.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:02:08 AM by 327 »

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2010, 10:02:58 AM »
^I hope that didn't lead to the proposition that the mall be turned into one huge cul-de-sac (ba-dum, bum, pish).  Sorry- couldn't resist.  I agree with giving the mall multiple uses, as long as the end result is distinctly Cleveland, and not Chicago or some other city we "aspire" to be.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:03:42 AM by Oldmanladyluck »

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2010, 10:07:58 AM »
Yeah, not sure why the focus is on attracting suburbanites. 

There are in fact people who enjoy being in the city w/o prompting or pandering.  Some of these people live in Greater Cleveland while many others do not (yet), but I can't help but think that urbanists comprise the more appropriate target audience.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2010, 10:09:55 AM »
^I hope that didn't lead to the proposition that the mall be turned into one huge cul-de-sac (ba-dum, bum, pish).  Sorry- couldn't resist.  I agree with giving the mall multiple uses, as long as the end result is distinctly Cleveland, and not Chicago or some other city we "aspire" to be.

Preach on my fellow 6'4" brethren!

Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2010, 10:49:44 AM »
I was at the meeting yesterday, and came out more impressed with LMN and GGC than I was already.  I'll try to summarize the points as briefly as I can:

First, Mark Reddington (LMN) described how his firm takes the basic plan of convention center movement and then "folds" and manipulates it to fit in the settings in which they are building.  Reddington and Shannon Nichol (GNN) then went through the following seven points to describe how they are approaching the project:

1. Lifted City: They showed a relief map of downtown and showed how it is, for all intents and purposes, a peninsula raised above the Lake (and the lower, filled in lakefront) to the north and the Cuyahoga River and Valley to the west, and how this influenced street layout (such as Lakeside and Euclid) and how the Mall actually sits at the top of this peninsula.  This gives the site prominence with regard not just to views to the lake, but connections to Public Square and to the east and west. How then ought we to regard this space to honor this prominence?

2. Civic Heart: The Mall site is not only in the center of the "Civic District", but is fairly equidistant to the other downtown districts, and as such (although current pedestrian movements don't reflect this), ought to act as a hub for pedestrians. The admitted challenge is that the "Civic Heart" is surrounded by "5 p.m. uses". They contend that while the Medical Mart can contribute to the use of the Mall in the evenings, it is also important to have programs that regularly use the Mall and use it throughout the year.

3. City Beautiful: Besides the obvious importance of the City Beautiful movement (and Cleveland's place among the great spaces of this movement), Reddington and Nichols showed how the Mall was intended to have pedestrian activity along its edges, with tree-lined promenades along its western and eastern frames. With the use of the western frame as the truck dock and the eastern frame for cars and the movement of people through the center, that pattern of movement has been replaced with zig-zag patterns that discourage pedestrians to move across the Mall. They would like to restore a more obvious pedestrian pattern that brings people closer to the buildings (which in turn helps to generate more pedestrian interest).

4. Place of Arrival: They described the original intent to have the train station at the northern end, and wanted to keep open the possibility of connecting the Mall to the station to the north. They did emphasize that the Medical Mart will also act as an attractor to make the Mall a "place of arrival" and communicated that it should be uniquely Cleveland and speak to our values as a community (similar to how the Group Plan spoke of Cleveland's early 20th-century place as a city of "good government").

5 Lakefront Edge: Fairly obvious.

6 Urban Alignment: This was similar to "Civic Heart" in that the need for programming was evident, as was the desire to make this a space that served Downtown well.  Additionally, they talked of the need to improve Lakeside and St. Clair so that they were not barriers to movement but contributed to the urbanism of the site. They also described the east-west movement north of Mall C that existed before back when there was a road parallel to Lakeside (before the parking garages).

7. Green Ring: Here, they spoke of the Emerald Necklace and how the Mall should act as a hub to the Metroparks and how it should connect to east-west movement on the Lakefront.  They also described how the Mall should manage stormwater on-site.

(sorry, this was a lot longer than I intended it to be)

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2010, 10:58:56 AM »
Avogadro- GREAT NOTES!  I'm looking forward to what is proposed.  Thanks!!

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2010, 11:12:11 AM »
My favorite Ranchero comes thru with notes! Gracias.  Fotos?

Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2010, 11:31:48 AM »
My favorite Ranchero comes thru with notes! Gracias.  Fotos?

Ai, cabrón. If I had photos, don't you think I would have shared them already?

One more point: they talked about developing "catalyst landscapes", which describes places that generate pedestrian life on their own. For a space that is surrounded by offices and other mainly-daytime activities, having an active space is necessary to generate... "vibrancy".

It will be interesting to see how this can co-exist with the current and perhaps future expectation of the Mall as a blank space for large public gatherings.

Offline MidwestChamp

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2010, 11:33:30 AM »
Here's a quick, to scale mock-up of Mall B with recreational facilities (sidewalks would remain as they are today).  I'm not advocating any of these facilities in particular, I just wanted to give an idea how many things there is room for.  All courts/rinks are professional sized, tennis and basketball courts have an additional 10ft on all sides.  There is still plenty of space left for flexible activities, I put the tents on there to show how easily a small market could fit (tents are 15x15).  This is comparable to some of the better parks I've seen in the area (minus baseball fields), and this still leaves Mall C, with its better view, open to a garden style park.



You know, at first I thought bball courts and the like were the WORST idea for our grand public space, but after seeing this mock-up and thinking about the attached convention center and med mart, what better diversion from a boring conference than a center that offers bball courts, rock climbing and the like right at the front door!  Especially since people are moving to a more active lifestyle these days.  It may put us at the forefront of an "active" convention movement and it would certainly make our convention center stand out from the rest.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2010, 12:00:58 PM »
My favorite Ranchero comes thru with notes! Gracias.  Fotos?

Ai, cabrón. If I had photos, don't you think I would have shared them already?

One more point: they talked about developing "catalyst landscapes", which describes places that generate pedestrian life on their own. For a space that is surrounded by offices and other mainly-daytime activities, having an active space is necessary to generate... "vibrancy".

It will be interesting to see how this can co-exist with the current and perhaps future expectation of the Mall as a blank space for large public gatherings.

Not necessarily.  You know how you people are!

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2010, 12:37:21 PM »
Great post Avogadro, thanks for the summary.  What I don't get is how the train station (#4) is still viewed as optional.  To me it's the only no-brainer involved here.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2010, 12:38:45 PM »
Great post Avogadro, thanks for the summary.  What I don't get is how the train station (#4) is still viewed as optional.  To me it's the only no-brainer involved here.

Agreed!  Unless they have a better alternative that can be built on ASAP

Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #72 on: May 07, 2010, 01:11:53 PM »
Great post Avogadro, thanks for the summary.  What I don't get is how the train station (#4) is still viewed as optional.  To me it's the only no-brainer involved here.

I don't think that it is so much viewed as "optional" as much as it is outside of the scope of this particular study.  I believe that GGN and LMN are making sure that its design is open-ended enough to permit future development of said train station and linkage.

Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #73 on: May 07, 2010, 04:43:13 PM »
Thanks for the great run-down, Avogadro!  Was there any mention of the potential interplay/competition between a new public square and the Malls?  And recognition of the possible elevation of the Mall surfaces as a result of desired CC ceiling height?

The Hanna Fountains were beautiful, but they took up a lot of real estate and more or less guaranteed the whole Mall was just a nice weather outdoor lunch spot M-F.  I think we're all hoping for better used space this time.

Litt kind of hinted at it in his last piece, but it's going to be kind of soul crushing if we end up seeing awesome design proposals that end up going nowhere because there's no money left for the execution.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 07:23:06 PM by StrapHanger »

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #74 on: May 07, 2010, 04:53:52 PM »
I think MMPI, Cleveland Public Art and Parkworks working together on this can leverage some money. 

Offline jborger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2010, 04:27:08 PM »
Was there any mention of the potential interplay/competition between a new public square and the Malls?

Yes.  They said they want to make sure the people redesigning the mall are talking to the people redesigning Public Square and that both spaces make sense.

So (and this is my example, not theirs) if the mall is redesigned to allow and even by suited for Cleveland Orchestra concerts, then Public Square doesn't need to have that same capability and vice versa. 

That was one of the thoughts that I left with after the Public Square forum held months ago.  I went in wanting to make sure whatever design they went with, it didn't ruin the ability to have concerts there (i.e. the "Thread it" plan).  But if the malls and designed to hold concerts, then it doesn't bother me if Public Square can't.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2010, 09:02:53 PM »
I've posted this in the CCmm thread. It really deals with Public Square, Casino, FEB, etc..

keep an eye on this folks. This has been brewing for a while and now the mayor has latched on..

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_15.html


Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2010, 09:26:01 PM »
Mayor Jackson, just get the right people in the right place.  That's all you have to do.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:26:15 PM by MuRrAy HiLL »

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2010, 12:54:34 PM »
MTS, we have an answer to your question

 :-D :evil: :-D :-D
^a very large parking garage?  What is your point?

I knew that.  my point, a parking garage under all that isn't bothered.
 
Having all those thing above our convention center most likely would be.
 
I think all that stuff should be developed along the FEB curving around to CBS and NCH.  It's a huge added bonus for the neighborhood.



http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/architects_envision_clevelands.html

Landscape architects were not at the presentation, but Vinoly said the underground convention center is being designed to withstand loads of large gatherings on the park-like mall above.

"In general, it's analogous to Millennium Park," he said, naming the Chicago tourist draw Cleveland boosters would like to emulate on the Mall.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 12:56:36 PM by punch »

Offline freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2010, 10:51:00 PM »
Mayor Frank Jackson names power brokers to city spaces panel

Published: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 9:21 PM
Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

Commission members include Cavs owner and casino developer Dan Gilbert; developer Albert Ratner, co-chairman of Forest City Enterprises; Ronn Richard, president and chief executive officer of the Cleveland Foundation; and Jennifer Coleman, an architect who serves as chairwoman of the city's Design Review Committee and vice chairwoman of the Landmarks Commission.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2010/06/mayor_frank_jackson_names_powe.html

Why not someone from ParkWorks or better yet from UO, 'bout time we get some r-e-s-p-e-c-t


Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2010, 06:31:24 AM »
But what we don't have is m-o-n-e-y.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2010, 06:44:09 AM »
The composition of this panel suggests that it's less about the project succeeding and more about the mayor succeeding.

Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2010, 07:27:08 AM »
EDIT, I didn't get the context of KJP's post at first (duh!).

Not the most exciting crowd to be assessing our marquee public spaces... but I hope they at least have their wallets open at the end of the day, even if it's just to pay the design consultants.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 07:28:52 AM by StrapHanger »

Offline Oldmanladyluck

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2010, 07:42:23 AM »
I'm speechless when looking at the list of people on the panel.  And not speechless in a good way.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2010, 07:47:53 AM »
In fairness, Dan Gilbert could sign with the Knicks or the Bulls as of 12:01 tomorrow, so we'd better ingratiate ourselves as much as possible. 

Offline shs96

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2010, 07:59:44 AM »
OK...so who would you rather see on the panel that is more versed in urban design that has the capital and business/political connections to make something happen?

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2010, 08:03:19 AM »
I'm speechless when looking at the list of people on the panel.  And not speechless in a good way.

Not many people capable of understanding design etc. :? 
The most I can figure is having some of the corporate involvelent may open the door to corporate contributions......  to the project I meant..

Offline Avogadro

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #88 on: June 30, 2010, 08:05:02 AM »
The composition of this panel suggests that it's less about the project succeeding and more about the mayor succeeding.

Actually, it's about both.  To wit:
Quote
Finding money is another part of the job.

"Their role is really to focus on appropriate design and look at funding opportunities, but not by going to the city or the county," said Ken Silliman, the mayor's chief of staff.

A huge part of the panel's job (if not its primary job) will be to round up private funding for the public spaces, and in order to get wealthy folks and corporations to open up their pocketbooks, you need folks on the panel with these connections.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Mall projects and programming
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2010, 08:11:02 AM »
I didn't realize being on a design panel required capital and business/political connections.  That kind of thinking has gotten us in trouble before.  Hint: conflicts of interest.  I like Dan Gilbert, his philosophies and his actions, but I would prefer a more professional approach to planning and landscape design.

The composition of this panel suggests that it's less about the project succeeding and more about the mayor succeeding.

Actually, it's about both.  To wit:
Quote
Finding money is another part of the job.

"Their role is really to focus on appropriate design and look at funding opportunities, but not by going to the city or the county," said Ken Silliman, the mayor's chief of staff.

A huge part of the panel's job (if not its primary job) will be to round up private funding for the public spaces, and in order to get wealthy folks and corporations to open up their pocketbooks, you need folks on the panel with these connections.

OK that makes more sense, although those are two very different jobs.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 08:19:02 AM by 327 »