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Author Topic: Cleveland: Jack Cleveland Casino - Phase I  (Read 12083 times)

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Offline MidwestChamp

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3150 on: November 01, 2012, 09:51:20 AM »
The phase 1 skywalk proposal is looking for new life...

Horseshoe Casino skywalk scheduled for Nov. 15 hearing
By Thomas Ott, The Plain Dealer
on November 01, 2012 at 6:00 AM, updated November 01, 2012 at 6:09 AM Email | Print


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- With Cleveland's looming winter as a backdrop, the Horseshoe Casino's landlord will try to clear the way for construction of a skywalk linking the casino to its parking garage.

At a Nov. 15 hearing, Forest City Enterprises will ask a National Park Service appeals officer to overturn the agency's rejection of a bridge to the second floor of the casino, located in the historic former Higbee store on Public Square. The park service oversees the National Register of Historic Places, which includes the Higbee Building and the rest of the Tower City Center complex.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/11/horseshoe_skywalk_scheduled_fo.html

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3151 on: November 01, 2012, 10:17:14 AM »
This will not be approved by the National Park Service.  I can already tell you that.

They may still want to do, but its a matter of whether they want to forgo that tax credits.  Cimpermans comments here are so predictable....  He's such a jellyfish..   

Offline Mendo

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3152 on: November 01, 2012, 11:14:47 AM »
I got hooked. My post on the article:
Quote
The vitality of a city is directly dependent on people walking on the street. Take that away and you have a cold, isolated, empty shell -- basically what Cleveland was before all the recent development. Hell, look how busy Tilted Kilt is; and Jake's, and the street vendors. An Indian restaurant and Subway are opening on Ontario right across the street from the casino. Plus several others on Euclid closer to E4th.
 
Skywalks destroy street presence and should be avoided downtown. And that goes for the proposed one at the Westin too. Most cities realize how important it is to actually have people walking around. Some are actually tearing them down -- see Cincinnati and Baltimore. Others passed resolutions limiting or banning new skywalk construction.
 
The planners in Cleveland have no spine. They know it's bad for the city. Yet, go along with it because they are worried it'll hurt the taxes coming in from the casino. And the posters here are even worse. They don't work, live, or pay taxes in the city and have no vested interest either way. There IS actually a PROPER way to do urban planning, and it doesn't involve skywalks. Even with crappy weather. The improvement in city life in the decent weather months is more than worth the inconvenience during the three months it's miserable. And by “worth” I mean, the general economic impact outweighs the inconvenience.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3153 on: November 01, 2012, 11:20:21 AM »
I agree with Cimperman on this one, but I also agree that it's probably not going to happen. 

Life on the streets is caused by open businesses for people to patronize.  That is true with or without skywalks.  Forcing people onto barren streets in the winter solves nothing.  I've seen downtowns that feature skywalks (Cin, Minn) and they don't appear to have suffered one bit.  Most locals seem to appreciate them and feel that they enhance the downtown experience.  Sounds like Cleveland will have to do without them, so I would focus on getting businesses open along the prescribed sidewalk route.  Otherwise we're putting people out in the snow for its own sake.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 11:25:37 AM by 327 »

Offline Mendo

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3154 on: November 01, 2012, 04:03:40 PM »
Cincinnati has been slowly dismantling their skywalks over the last decade. Their urban revitalization has been just as aggressive as Cleveland.

And the area around the casino is not barren precisely because of the people walking the street. It's called providing an audience. Who is going to open anything along that area if 50% of the casino patrons never set foot on the street? That's completely backwards.

Moreover the distance between the garage and casino is miniscule. They would walk farther from their car to a department store out in the burbs.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3155 on: November 01, 2012, 04:30:14 PM »
This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

Offline DeanSheen

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3156 on: November 01, 2012, 09:31:40 PM »
If the people from the burbs just want their easy parking and comfy walk to the Casino then give it to them.  Otherwise they are not going to come to our city and lose their money.



Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3157 on: November 01, 2012, 09:34:55 PM »
They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3158 on: November 01, 2012, 10:10:23 PM »
Why not park at tower city?

Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3159 on: November 01, 2012, 10:13:07 PM »
This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

Nation's first downtown casino?  What about Detroit, New Orleans, St Louis etc....?

Offline Mendo

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3160 on: November 01, 2012, 10:41:38 PM »
This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.
Yes let's improve their downtown experience by making it so they don't actually have to set foot anywhere downtown. From the parking garage, to the casino, and right back to the garage.

People have told me how surprised they were to see so many people out and about. A bustling city builds buzz. It builds momentum. Getting them off the street is the worst idea i've heard yet. And no that area is not barren. You don't need 10 storefronts along the way. There are numerous restaurants on the block around the higbee building.

Offline DeanSheen

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3161 on: November 01, 2012, 11:12:11 PM »
They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

I think I have read a ton of comments from cleve.com posters who represent a certain demographic from the suburbs that love to complain about lack of free parking downtown and I do not think these are isolated incidents.  (I do not have a marketing study citation to insert here.)

So yeah, I think they will still come but I think more that may not come will come if they are made more comfortable by staying in their bubble.

That being said, this cake and eat it thing with tax credits vs. zoning that invalidates it is a crock.


Online eyehrtfood

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3162 on: November 01, 2012, 11:43:03 PM »
This is a totally no-win subject. I'm betting 90% of UO members wouldn't support a skywalk and 90% of the average Joes out there in the world would.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3163 on: November 02, 2012, 12:20:32 AM »
^^I wouldn't base anything off of Cleveland.com comments.  UO may attract a skewed demo of urban enthusiasts, but cleveland.com attracts a skewed demo of neanderthals.

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3164 on: November 02, 2012, 07:45:09 AM »
This is the nation's first downtown casino, so I don't think any aspect of downtown is dependent on casino patrons.  There are no skywalks now, and their lack has not led to business development.  Business development leads to business development.  Forcibly herding casino patrons over 2 crosswalks sends them past zero storefronts and does nothing to enhance their downtown visit.  Let's make everyone's downtown visit as memorable as possible, in a positive way, and let's develop businesses through a more direct means.

Nation's first downtown casino?  What about Detroit, New Orleans, St Louis etc....?

You're right, I should have said first on a downtown's central square. 

Point is that downtown doesn't need casino patrons to be herded along certain paths. Good development will attract people on its own merits, like East 4th Street.  No one is forced to walk down that street but they do anyway.  And even if the path between the garage and the casino contained storefronts, marching people past them isn't likely to get them filled.  They can't spend money on nothing.  But putting businesses into those storefronts is likely to get people to walk by willingly.  The casino gets people to come downtown who otherwise might not.  From that point, what they do depends on the options they're presented.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 07:48:51 AM by 327 »

Online Clefan98

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3165 on: November 02, 2012, 07:50:25 AM »
Horseshoe Casino raises game stakes with 24 more tables

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- From the moment the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland opened five months ago, management was impressed by the strong demand for table games.

So if it's more table games you want, more table games you'll get.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/11/horseshoe_casino_raises_game_s.html




Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3166 on: November 02, 2012, 08:51:15 AM »
They'll still come.  Do we really think they'll drive 2 hours to Toledo or Columbus to not have to cross a street?

I think I have read a ton of comments from cleve.com posters who represent a certain demographic from the suburbs that love to complain about lack of free parking downtown and I do not think these are isolated incidents.  (I do not have a marketing study citation to insert here.)

So yeah, I think they will still come but I think more that may not come will come if they are made more comfortable by staying in their bubble.

Well these are the ones that will be going to the racetracks as soon as the slots open there.  It may very well be closer to their home anyway.    Downtown will maintain the only place for table games in the metro at least, but liklely thats not the demographic complaining about parking.     

Offline urb-a-saurus

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3167 on: November 04, 2012, 07:40:07 AM »
If the appeal to the NPS is rejected, is the amount of money that FCM would have to be reimbursed for the loss of the historic credit significant in relation to Casino operations?  Also, when does the limitation expire, such that no loss to FCM would occur?  Does the loss decrease linearly until the expiration date?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 07:41:26 AM by urb-a-saurus »

Offline MuRrAy HiLL

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3168 on: November 06, 2012, 05:14:26 PM »
For those who are against the skywalk, there is a petition created -- please sign!

http://theciviccommons.com/conversations/discussing-the-cleveland-horshoe-casino-s-proposed-skywalk/actions#opportunity-nav

Offline jjames0408

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3169 on: November 06, 2012, 05:37:46 PM »
Thank you! I'm never up on those!!

Offline surfohio

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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3171 on: November 07, 2012, 09:13:53 AM »
This will not be approved by the National Park Service.  I can already tell you that.

They may still want to do, but its a matter of whether they want to forgo that tax credits.  Cimpermans comments here are so predictable....  He's such a jellyfish..   

I often dont agree with Roldo, but he is right on here regarding the proposed pedestrian bridge and Cimperman (as well as the other poster).  As I was saying I would be ok if Cimperman had some sound reasoning behind supporting it, but as usual....  Well his response is just predictable. 

"Long-time Councilman Joe Cimperman’s quote in the Plain Dealer supporting bridges over streets that debase historic buildings downtown is a model of deceit. Then Joe always was putty in the hands of downtown developers. Joe is so self-serving. Don’t think he can even recognize it anymore. Sad."
http://www.coolcleveland.com/blog/2012/11/roldo-joe-cimperman-the-lies-some-pols-tell/

Offline tradition7

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3172 on: November 07, 2012, 12:03:37 PM »
Signed.

Offline KJP

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"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Online freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3174 on: November 25, 2012, 09:53:54 AM »
Why couldn't RTA offer the same deal as LakefrontLines. Customers could be offered to purchase a special $10 Casino RapidPass
on-line that would be good for a round trip to and from the casino while receiving $15 in free slot play when you get there. Or maybe they could run specific CasinoCars on the weekends from various RTA stations. Would customers be interested in taking the rapid downtown and receiving a benefit of free slot play when they get there. Something to think about. Although I'm sure there must be some federal regulation that would prohibit RTA from being involved.
But check out the links below as other communities have tried and usually failed in there efforts to do something similar.

http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/gambling-news/casino-gambling/aces_casino_train_system_from_new_york_to_atlantic_city_finished_57727.html

http://www.massinc.org/INCSpot/Riding-the-casino-train.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/10/nyregion/casinos-end-atlantic-city-train-service.html



Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3175 on: November 25, 2012, 10:55:46 AM »
Something strange went on in this thread since last night.  :x >:D

Offline McLovin

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Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3176 on: December 14, 2012, 12:54:58 PM »
Never noticed the horses

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3177 on: December 15, 2012, 08:31:46 AM »
I just noticed them the other day. Not sure how I feel about those.....
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3178 on: December 15, 2012, 08:58:39 AM »
Just for Christmas I thought.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 08:58:50 AM by ClevelandOhio »

Offline JMasek

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino - Phase I
« Reply #3179 on: December 26, 2012, 01:22:05 PM »
OnNov. 25, freethink posted a question about casinos. I must have missed it at the time, but now I can answer it.

He asked:

<<Why couldn't RTA offer the same deal as LakefrontLines. Customers could be offered to purchase a special $10 Casino RapidPass
on-line that would be good for a round trip to and from the casino while receiving $15 in free slot play when you get there. Or maybe they could run specific CasinoCars on the weekends from various RTA stations. Would customers be interested in taking the rapid downtown and receiving a benefit of free slot play when they get there. Something to think about. Although I'm sure there must be some federal regulation that would prohibit RTA from being involved.>>

Answer:

As you may have noticed in recent years, RTA no longer operates special bus service from Park-N-Ride lots to Tribe games and Browns games. The federal government, which gives us 80 percent of the funding needed to buy new buses, has declared this kind of service to be a "charter", and gives us an unfair advantage over private carriers, like Lakefront Lines. If RTA were to violate the charter regulations, the feds could deny us future federal funding.

Any service operated by RTA, with few exceptions, needs to be open to everyone. Yes, we operate more rail service for a Browns game, because 1). we perceive a need for the extra service to meet the demand, and 2). The extra Rapid service is open to non-Browns fans.

I hope this answers your question. Happy holidays.