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Author Topic: Cleveland: Jack Cleveland Casino - Phase I  (Read 7995 times)

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Offline jborger

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1560 on: May 21, 2011, 10:42:03 AM »
I understand some of us sound a bit crazy, but Gilbert will make his money, people will be able to park, and cold weather can be avoided all without demolishing one of the few remaining century old buildings.  (Built 1909)

Yeah, no one is going to not come to the casino because they have to walk outside for a little bit.  There's casinos across the country that have large parking lots where people have to walk outside for a much longer distance to get inside.

Offline jborger

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1561 on: May 21, 2011, 10:46:30 AM »
The Grand Arcade has over 90 units. The buildings we are talking about are not being considered for any development because at best they would produce only 15 to 25 apartments.  In a city with a downtown population of over 12000, they are not profitable for conversion.  The casino project in its entirety stands to total close to 1 BILLION DOLLARS!!   

Why do you keep spouting things that are just wrong?  The Columbia Building is NOT in poor condition and it's LARGER than the Grand Arcade was when it was converted.

Your arguments would be listened to more if you got your facts straight.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1562 on: May 21, 2011, 10:47:58 AM »
^ Maybe they are confusing the Stanley Block with the Columbia Building

Offline djunior

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1563 on: May 21, 2011, 10:54:25 AM »
Lurker here..just had to chime in on how disappointing this all is. I graduate from college in 2 years and I think this will be the straw that broke the camel's back for me. As much as I love Cleveland, I just have no confidence in our leadership to turn this city into the vibrant urban area it could be. We get projects like this, where the city bends over backwards for whatever new development project that is supposed to save Cleveland. Just reading the quotes in the article..it's all about catering to the casino experience..how about catering to the Cleveland experience and investing in the community? It's just frustrating how much potential this city wastes because of this type of short-sighted planning...missed opportunity after missed opportunity..

Offline WestBLVD

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1564 on: May 21, 2011, 11:18:35 AM »
I doubt it, but has anyone gotten any response from any of their emails?
the planning director responded to me yesterday. It seems doubtful that the Columbia stays.

Offline jborger

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1565 on: May 21, 2011, 11:18:44 AM »
djunior - I know it can be discouraging but I hope it also motivates you to do something to make this city great.  Because Cleveland is really small enough for one person to actually make a difference.  We need more young people like you to stay in the city.

Online freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1566 on: May 21, 2011, 11:28:15 AM »
I believe the last person we should  blame for this is Dan Gilbert. Yes a developer has some responsibility to the community in regards to a proposed development but it is not Dan Gilbert's responsibility to right the wrongs that we have commited as a community. We are the ones to blame for the state of the Stanley and we should not look to someone to come in and repair what we have negleted. Gilbert just wants to build a garage for his customer, he should not be burdened with the added responsibility and cost of the Stanley and the Columbia. The Stanley has been an eyesore for about 30 years and very few up till now have given it any thought. Besides this deal with the city is about the sale of GatewayNorth and the chance to get out of a very large debt associated with it.  I love the Columbia, but the chances of anyone investing in them at this point are not good. They would likely remain vacant for another 10 years. And with the anticipation of added visitors coming to town we cannot let them sit in the condition that they are in any longer. I am not saying we should give Gilbert a free pass but like others in this town he chose Cleveland and not Westlake or the Chagrin Highlands to invest in.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1567 on: May 21, 2011, 11:34:08 AM »
Do you really feel a handsome building a block away from E. 4th and a block away from the casino, with the recent success of 668, would not be considered a prime candidate for conversion? 

Probably the only reason it is not being used right now is that developers (i.e. Gilbert) purchased the property on speculation that the casino would be approved, and he could tear it down to build the garage.  Using the argument, "well, its not being used for anything"


For that matter, when did he buy the building?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 11:38:58 AM by punchin' Pat »

Offline jam40jeff

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1568 on: May 21, 2011, 01:12:10 PM »
Search 112 Prospect on the Cuyahoga County Auditor's Website.  It was originally sold in 2008, and then again in 2010.  The owner is now USA Parking Systems.  Between 2008 and 2010, though, it was "Columbia Prospect, LLC", whatever that means (or whoever that is a front for).  Also it was bought for almost $3 million in 2008 and then sold to USA Parking System in 2010 for just over $1 million.  Could these two owners have been in cahoots to lower the perceived value of the property?

Offline skorasaurus

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1569 on: May 21, 2011, 05:58:21 PM »
An article from the PD about the CPC approving the "Welcome Center"
Where do I start....  everything I have seen from the mayor on this shows the lack of leadership...  yet his below statement would be totally true given the plan that Rock gaming put forth.  Quite the visionaire and leader he is.

"Ken Silliman, chief of staff for Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, expressed the mayor's support for the project at the meeting. Silliman said the administration understood the importance of historic preservation, but added the Columbia building needs to go for the project to move forward."

Im guessing by the last name that this may be a certain someone that has posted about the meeting on UO.  Valid question, but was that really the only question/objection to this plan at the meeting?  Outside of the traffic study there really were no challenging questions asked here?  Whatever.
   
Cleveland Planning Commission approves welcome center complex for casino
Published: Saturday, May 21, 2011, 5:20 AM     Updated: Saturday, May 21, 2011, 9:06 AM
 By Dave Davis, The Plain Dealer

Marcus Glover, general manager of the Higbee casino, explained the parking plan must wow casino customers, providing an initial impression that says, "I'm here. I've arrived."

"You want to be able to pull in and get out with convenience and ease," said Glover, who works for Caesars Entertainment Corp., which is developing the Higbee casino with Dan Gilbert's company, Rock Gaming LLC.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/05/cleveland_planning_commissions.html

Yes, that would be me. It wasn't my only objection and it wasn't the only objection to the plan. As far as I remember, there were 3 (only!) others who had publicly expressed criticism to any portion of the plan: a rep. from the Gateway District, Anthony Coyne, and Norm Krumholz.

The three of them and I had a few criticisms including: that the Stanley Building was not incorporated to the overall design of the parking garage, the aesthetics of the garage, that the parking garage will not create any pedestrian vibrancy on Prospect between Ontario and East 4th because of the parking garage will create dead space, and because of the current design, pedestrians will not want to walk from East 4th to the Casino.

For what it's worth, I have most of the audio [the quality isn't very good either, but the speaking is audible] from the Rock Gaming presentation although the audio is a bit limiting because the visuals are missing. Link to audio: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17003223/2011-05-20_09-39.flac (warning, 212 MB).

some remarks, points, worth noting:

Bob Brown: the first view of the courthouse that is even worth seeing isn't until you're already north of the skywalk/bridge (46min into the audio).
"it activates the streetscape, it really makes prospect seem like a more exciting and pedestrian friendly area....it adds to the connectivity to the area" - Rock-gaming rep. (I wonder what he's talking about.... /sarcasm). (47min).
- City of cleveland will sell the gateway north garage to Rock Gaming for $21 million
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 11:48:19 AM by skorasaurus »

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1570 on: May 21, 2011, 07:40:43 PM »
Connectivity = old white people not having to step foot in Cleveland

Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1571 on: May 21, 2011, 07:59:52 PM »
djunior, I hear what your saying... I kindof feel the same way.  I was hoping to move back, but I have been a bit wishy washy about the thought this past year.  I would imagine its even more frustrating to be there and witness the missed opportunities and lack of leadership than it is from another city. 

Thanks  skorasaurus, I really wasnt dissin you, and Im glad you went and were able to report back.  But I was a little frustrated that there were not more people there asking additional challenging questions at least, and a bit frustrated that only 3 people were there critical of the plan.  For all the people on here that seem to dislike the plan, and the great input/insight (and convincing arguments)  I have read on this board, I really thought there would have been more opposition at the actual meeting.         

Its not too late to contnue to contact people on the Landmarks Commission.   Do people know contacts for any of the others?  We had a couple of emails posted for the Chair Jennifer Coleman.  I used to know Laura pretty well but I have lost touch..

Cleveland Landmarks Commission:
Laura Bala
Anthony Brancatelli, City Council
Robert N. Brown, Director of City Planning
Thomas Coffey
Jennifer Coleman, Chair
Allan Dreyer
Bill Mason
Michael Rastatter, Jr.
John Torres
Robert Vilkas, Manager of Architecture and Site Development



 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 08:01:21 PM by willyboy »

Offline Hts121

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1572 on: May 21, 2011, 10:15:05 PM »
That would be a shame Willy and djunior.  I hope you can look past your disagreement on this issue and do your part to make Cleveland a better place to live.  'Leadership' can always change if you don't like the current make-up of city hall.  Of course, without living in cleveland, you won't have any say in that.  It is an overreaction IMHO, to say the least

Offline Coneybear

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1573 on: May 22, 2011, 12:39:07 AM »
Yeah I'm with hts. Yes, this is disappointing but it's not the end of the world. The Casino will bring a lot of money to the city. Also, consider the med mart/convention center, flats east bank, flats aquarium, MOCA/uptown, etc. All of which are projects that will be finished within the next few years and bring a lot of potential to the region. Don't let this one thing discourage you. Leadership can and will change in this city and I think you should both try to have a voice in changing it.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1574 on: May 22, 2011, 08:13:57 AM »
Does anyone else think their annual visitors projections seem a bit unrealistic?

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1575 on: May 22, 2011, 08:15:43 AM »
If the buildings were being sacrificed for the casino, that would be one thing.  But, they are being knocked down for parking, something the city has no shortage of.  There is no NEED for these buildings to come down

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1576 on: May 22, 2011, 08:29:12 AM »
If the buildings were being sacrificed for the casino, that would be one thing.  But, they are being knocked down for parking, something the city has no shortage of.  There is no NEED for these buildings to come down

Exactly, this is not a deal breaker. And it doesn't take much effort/creativity to work around these buildings.

Offline presOhio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1577 on: May 22, 2011, 10:43:21 AM »
Thought that I would share this "head's up" with readers of UrbanOhio. Tomorrow morning we are going to announce that the Columbia Building and Stanley Block have been named to the 2011 List of Ohio's Most Endangered Historic Sites.

Here's a link to our blog which carries that announcement:

http://preserveohio.com/2011/05/downtown-cleveland-sites-among-most-endangered/

Just thought I would pass along that word...

Thomas/presOhio

Online Hootenany

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1578 on: May 22, 2011, 10:45:56 AM »
^Thank you.  Keep up the good work.

Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1579 on: May 22, 2011, 12:23:22 PM »
Thanks presOhio for the link. Has anyone forwarded this to Cleveland Planning Commission and Landmarks Commission?

Offline heatohio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1580 on: May 22, 2011, 06:26:29 PM »
Part of my time downtown today was spent actually looking at that intersection including the Columbia building. I've passed by that area for years but have never stopped to look. I must admit, I am far from impressed by the Columbia building. It's not something that I would miss. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a parking garage fan, especially since I'm a huge advocate for public transportation. But I don't see anyway that a "welcome center" can exist in that location without that building coming down, I'm shocked enough that the Stanley block can be saved and incorporated into the plans. Throw in a couple ground level retail stores there and fix up the building just to the east of the current Columbia building for more retail and or restaurants and that intersection should be just fine. This casino is too important to the grand scheme of a new, rejuvenated downtown Cleveland. If this is a necessary evil than I can live with that.

Offline jhonopolis

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1581 on: May 22, 2011, 06:39:00 PM »
^ The casino will be built no matter what. And my problem with the garage is that it will create a nightmare for pedestrians.

Offline heatohio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1582 on: May 22, 2011, 06:51:29 PM »
^ The casino will be built no matter what. And my problem with the garage is that it will create a nightmare for pedestrians.

We can only hope that it doesn't create the problems that people think that it will create.

Offline Burnham_2011

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1583 on: May 22, 2011, 08:24:46 PM »
^ The casino will be built no matter what. And my problem with the garage is that it will create a nightmare for pedestrians.

I've mentioned this before, but just cant get this thought out of my head, I'd love someone who knows the process more to comment.  At this point Rock Ventures has spent hundreds of millions on land, lobbying, engineering/architectural planning, and general managerial preparation for the Casino.  There is no way that this is not going to move forward.

That said, upon presenting this Welcome Center idea to the planning commission one would have to guess that either there is a Plan B for if it is denied OR they knew that it wouldn't be denied.  Put another way, I don't know the legality of it, but I think it's very likely that though we've only seen the Welcome Center designs for a few weeks, the planning commission and/or the mayor had given a general promise to allow Rock Ventures to do whatever they need to get this Casino built.

I suppose it's strange, to me, that we never heard anyone in power mention an interest in an alternative plan being floated.  They said "we want a nicer looking skyway" but couldn't ask for an alternative and a proposal.  If an alternative that did not destroy the Columbia Building was offered but cost an additional $2.5 million to build that would detour Rock Ventures from it being Plan A, but of course it would not have ended the Casino development.

So either he knew this was fine to begin with, or he had a Plan B and we just didn't ask him to provide it.   Does this sound about right? 

Offline WestBLVD

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1584 on: May 22, 2011, 09:25:34 PM »
Does anyone else think their annual visitors projections seem a bit unrealistic?

It does, but this is a 365/24 hour a day business. That comes out to 571 people per hour. That number is about the same as a strip mall with just a Giant Eagle and a WalMart in it.

It's also a bit contentious because it doesn't necessarily mean that you will have 5 million new visitors to downtown. e.g. most customers are repeat visitors and many people who come downtown for dinners, games, plays, ALREADY will now visit the casino too, meaning that a decent % of those 5 million visitors are already current downtown visitors.

Also as another perspective, a 20 story office building with 150 workers on each floor would generate would generate 720,000 visits to downtown working 5 days a week, 48 weeks per year.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1585 on: May 23, 2011, 04:28:35 PM »
Here is the Columbia building, and a couple of similar looking building in Chicago's south loop, just so people can picture how it can be renovated for apartments or condos

Offline Matches

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1586 on: May 23, 2011, 04:57:29 PM »
I just don't know why all the lip service to "integrating with the city", even well after the issue passed, then tearing down a building and building a skyway to keep people from walking anywhere but from their car to the casino and back.  Also, the nonsense about this being a "temporary" casino.  I suppose the thought is to hope for something better from the Tower City spot, which I'm now prepared to believe will never happen.

Offline heatohio

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1587 on: May 23, 2011, 05:12:23 PM »
Many of the older people will be the "through the hamster tube and back" types. I think most young people will look for more to do downtown. I can't count the times I've driven up to Detroit and planned on doing stuff besides gamble, but since their two best casinos are in the middle of nowhere I never really did. The one time I went to Greektown I got out and walked the area and visited a couple places.

The key, IMO, will be street directories. People need hand holding like it or not. They need "E.4th street --->" signs and the same with the warehouse district. And inside the casino they need signs directing people towards tower city.

Not to mention, the people visiting the city for conventions will probably be walking already, especially during the summer months. Those people will be drawn to that area because of the casino where they may not have even bothered without it. The casino isn't the end all be all of cures to the cities problems, but it's a nice piece of the puzzle, and if you need a slightly bad thing to gain a really great thing, it's not all so bad.

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1588 on: May 23, 2011, 05:25:35 PM »
that is a classically handsome turn of the century building that is in good shape and it would be a mistake to tear it down. ridiculous. so now this new money carpetbagger is trying to tear down cle like its his detroit? not cool.

Offline WestBLVD

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Re: Cleveland: Horseshoe Casino
« Reply #1589 on: May 23, 2011, 08:18:15 PM »
Personally I would rather see MORE parking garages because they diminish the value of the many surface parking lots and will only make development of those surface lots more profitable.  Right now none of the surface parking lot owners want to sell for development because they are making too much money.  Every great city solves this problem by building multi-story parking garages which diminish the money the surface lot owners make.

Very good point.  I wish we could biuld a stand-alone parking tower, like in Chicago.  Flood the market with supply so that surface parking is no longer the "highest and best use" in so many downtown landowners' minds.

It is a good point except that this new garage represents new supply as a response to new demand.  It only diminishes the demand for surface lots if it changes the equilibrium.  As this garage is solely for the new Casino traffic it will do nothing to diminish the demand for surface lots.  And depending on how well it satisfies demand, it may in fact lead to spillover parking in the E4th lot perpetuating the lack of development on that lot.

It's hard to tell right now, but I think the added supply will be much greater than the demand. It could end up hurting public transit use a bit when people are going downtown for a big event and say, "oh let's just drive and park at the casino, they have a huge 6000 space garage that's free if we use our players club card, then we won't have to pay for RTA passes."

I think what prevents a lot of people from using public transit to get downtown more often is that a) we have comparatively minimal traffic b) parking is ample c) said parking is extremely cheap and in many cases free. My cost to drive to work downtown + parking is less than a roundtrip RTA fare!

The garage is a double edge sword because it brings more people downtown, but makes parking cheaper faster and easier enticing more vehicles to drive downtown until parking equilibrium is reached again. Which of course makes it less pedestrian friendly and less enticing to use public transit.