Author Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel  (Read 15232 times)

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Offline SleepyLeroy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #360 on: December 04, 2017, 05:04:10 PM »
In the hotel portion the rooms are quite small, but the 8' ceilings did not bother me at all with such an expansive view. If the footprints were opened up a bit even the upper floors I could see being apartments/condos. Not everyone wants a cavernous loft space, they would just have to market it to those who appreciate the style.

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #361 on: December 04, 2017, 05:09:28 PM »
^Do you mean "small" for a hotel room? Or "small" for an apartment?

CF3 posted a few photos from the tour: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1762334680445991&id=116290788383730

Offline BigDipper 80

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #362 on: December 04, 2017, 05:20:28 PM »
I'd describe them as "small for a hotel room". Much smaller than your typical new-build 1-bedroom apartment. If you wanted to install kitchens, you'd probably need to combine two units.
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Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #363 on: December 04, 2017, 05:21:26 PM »
Small for an apartment/condo for sure. Pretty small for a hotel room, but nothing outrageously small. It's a single room with a small bathroom attached. Could never be made into apartments/condos without knocking down walls.

Offline Ram23

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #364 on: December 04, 2017, 05:28:58 PM »
Boutique hotels tend to have some very small rooms - I don't think the Terrace Plaza rooms are any smaller than rooms at 21C, for example. In bigger cities I've stayed in hotels with much smaller rooms. A mid-century modern themed boutique hotel could probably work well here since the bones are all already actual mid-century modern. A low ceiling works well with that aesthetic.

Offline jjakucyk

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #365 on: December 04, 2017, 07:09:00 PM »
I talked with a contractor who walked through recently, and the real problem with the 8' ceilings is that's only available where there's no utilities, basically concrete to concrete.  Over the room entrances, bathrooms, and hallways where you have pipes and ductwork (more of which will be required for all new mechanicals, since what's there is shot) that means you're pushing down to the 7' level which starts to get quite oppressive.

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #366 on: December 05, 2017, 12:50:44 AM »
I talked with a contractor who walked through recently, and the real problem with the 8' ceilings is that's only available where there's no utilities, basically concrete to concrete.  Over the room entrances, bathrooms, and hallways where you have pipes and ductwork (more of which will be required for all new mechanicals, since what's there is shot) that means you're pushing down to the 7' level which starts to get quite oppressive.
If existing mechanicals are shot, they should be ripped out and that space should be used for the new mechanicals. Anybody have photos of the hotel rooms and hallways? If the old ducts were too small, it might require some creative rework... but you definitely want to minimize encroaching on the 8' ceiling heights.

Offline SleepyLeroy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #367 on: December 05, 2017, 11:14:07 AM »

The halls were the lowest "feeling" part of the Hotel portion and you can see the metal track where the later added (and now removed) drop ceiling was at about 8" above the door transom. That fiberboard panel covered the front of the original fluorescent indirect lamp that also included an illuminated room number. I guess it got covered in a previous remodel but it is still there. If removed it would also raise the door area up to the level of the lowered ceiling.

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #368 on: December 05, 2017, 12:38:46 PM »
@SleepyLeroy thanks for that photo of the hallway... do you have a photo of the illuminated room number that you said is still there?

21c renovated  a mid-century bank into "The Durham" hotel in Durham, NC which turned out awesome: https://thedurham.com/

Across the street is an old mid-century motel that was recently renovated as well, dialing the nostalgia up to 11: http://www.unscriptedhotels.com/

There's enough demand for mid-century modern that it seems like a no-brainer to renovate the top of the Terrace Plaza into a mid-century modern boutique hotel. (I'm not sure what would be the best use for the lower levels).

Looking at the mechanicals in that photo, it seems pretty manageable. There's electric for lighting and smoke detectors and there's a sprinkler system. There don't seem to be any ducts through the hallway. I definitely wouldn't want them to put the drop ceiling back up. It'd be better to leave the sprinkler system exposed (which is quite common in historic rehabs). Not sure where they currently run ducts for heating/cooling, but many hotels give each room their own system (so each room's temperature can be managed independently). Those systems are usually quite small and fit into the wall with the bathroom in each room, so you wouldn't need to sacrifice any ceiling height in the rooms either.

Offline SleepyLeroy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #369 on: December 05, 2017, 01:55:42 PM »
^^^ No sadly the Room numbers are well hidden and i didnt want to get escorted out by pulling the fiberboard off. I sure was tempted though. They had some drawings there and one showed a section view but nothing head on. Maybe another floor has them exposed but not the case up on the floor we were allowed to tour. They did say that SOM if REALLY excited about the new interest and gave them all the original drawing and even want to volunteer in what ever way they can if it can be restored. In another cool bit i was told that they are pretty sure the original front overhand and TERRACE PLAZA sign still exist under that awful tacked up awning at the entrance. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:11:42 PM by SleepyLeroy »

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #370 on: December 05, 2017, 02:29:11 PM »
^That's awesome that SOM is involved and wants to help.

That original awning looks great in the photo, though I would guess the concrete has deteriorated (due to rusting structural rebar) over the years and would probably need to be entirely rebuilt to look clean like that photo. 

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #371 on: December 07, 2017, 05:15:55 PM »
If anyone is interested, I posted a bunch of images from the tour I went on this weekend here.

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #372 on: December 07, 2017, 06:55:08 PM »
^thanks so much @ryanlammi!

Offline thebillshark

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #373 on: December 14, 2017, 10:42:23 PM »
My takeaway from the evening walk tonight: Sixth Street would easily be the CBD’s best, most vibrant street if the Terrace Plaza came back to life. This project should be downtown’s number one priority.

(Especially off they dropped the solid brick facade like in Birkla’s rendering)

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/08/04/developer-unveils-bold-plan-for-deteriorating.html
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 10:44:24 PM by thebillshark »

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #374 on: December 15, 2017, 12:18:27 AM »
^On a few of my fantasy transit maps, the Terrace Plaza is demolished in order to open a work site for a central subway station station with 400-foot platforms in line with Sixth St. 

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #375 on: March 22, 2018, 12:39:23 PM »
These photo comparisons (before and today) from Phil Armstrong are just amazing: http://www.philarmstrongart.com/blog/2017/11/15/ezra-stoller-recreations

Offline chinkley

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #376 on: March 22, 2018, 01:53:14 PM »
@jmecklenborg care to share those fantasy maps? What program do you use?

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #377 on: March 22, 2018, 02:14:26 PM »
@jmecklenborg care to share those fantasy maps? What program do you use?

I just drew them on Illustrator and used Google Earth to measure.  The big expense with bored rapid transit systems isn't the tunnel, it's the station, and the cost to construct those stations goes through the roof when there isn't adequate space to stage equipment and materials.  That's part of the reason why subway construction is so expensive in Manhattan but they're building tunnel sections of LA's light rail system under Crenshaw Ave. for relatively cheap. 

There are tons of parking lots in Cincinnati's downtown, but Cincinnati's downtown is so small that one central station would really cover the whole thing.  The center of town is actually very dense...Fifth between Vine and Main would be ideal for a station oriented east/west, except that would require removal and reconstruction of the Fountain Square garage because the garage physically occupies the space under Fifth St. and abuts the foundation of the Westin Hotel.  It would also require closing Fountain Square as a civic space for 3-5 years. 




Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #378 on: July 18, 2018, 04:26:34 PM »
A crucial step for $61 million redevelopment of Terrace Plaza



The developer planning a bold redevelopment of the former Terrace Plaza Hotel is set to take a crucial step this week.

More below:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/07/18/exclusive-a-crucial-step-for-61-million.html
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Offline jmblec2

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #379 on: July 18, 2018, 04:32:27 PM »
^Wow, that would be incredible.

Offline jwulsin

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #380 on: July 18, 2018, 05:23:54 PM »
Not a ton more info, but the petition is on page 25 of the July 20 planning commission packet: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/jul-20-2018-packet/

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #381 on: July 18, 2018, 06:20:00 PM »
^Wow, that would be incredible.

I don't see Batsake's in that rendering.  They moved to the Terrace around 2002 to make way for the CAC.  Their location at 6th & Walnut was a great building and a great motley collection of narrow prewar buildings. 

Offline ColDayMan

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #382 on: July 21, 2018, 12:52:14 AM »
Preservationists hope to change plans for former Terrace Plaza Hotel

Cincinnati preservationists hope to convince a developer considering a major redevelopment of the deteriorating Modernist hotel building to scrap plans to remove seven floors of brick façade and preserve at least some of it.

The Cincinnati Planning Commission unanimously approved an initial step in the former hotel’s potential $61 million redevelopment. It allowed the 20-story property at 15 W. Sixth St. to be conveyed from the current owner to the city and then to Indianapolis-developer Anderson Birkla Investment Partners LLC, which plans to turn the 600,000-square-foot structure into a mixed-use structure with retail, restaurants, residential, parking and possibly a hotel. The conveyance move will allow a tax-increment financing district to be created at the site, allowing property taxes that would be paid to go back into public infrastructure at the site.

Redevelopment of the Terrace Plaza would revive an entire city block blighted by the shuttered hotel, which is vacant, with the exception of a few street-level retailers, including the legendary Batsakes hat shop.

More below:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/07/20/preservationists-hope-to-change-plans-for-former.html
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Offline Yves Behar

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #383 on: July 23, 2018, 09:24:18 AM »
Yeah that's a totally ridiculous request.

Offline DEPACincy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #384 on: July 23, 2018, 09:47:55 AM »
Yeah that's a totally ridiculous request.

I'm all for historic preservation but this block will never be a place people want to be as long as there's a huge brick wall dominating the street. Redeveloping this with windows would be a huge benefit for this part of downtown.

Online jmicha

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #385 on: July 23, 2018, 11:08:59 AM »
Yeah, as an architect and someone who values preservation, I have no qualms with opening up the base of this. Will it drastically alter the historic character of the building? Yes, but it's a necessity. There are so few uses that can occupy that much space without windows. It just isn't realistic.

Additionally, the historic qualities of the building sit squarely against conventional thinking about what makes a city work. It came from an era where people thought disconnecting from the street was the future. We quickly learned, "whoops, that was a mistake" and this building can't properly integrate as it currently stands.

As long as the terrace above the base, the tower, and the top level lounge/restaurant are retained and historically preserved, I think it's a win that will bring the building back to life.

Offline jmecklenborg

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #386 on: July 23, 2018, 12:49:39 PM »
Are the ceiling heights low in the windowless section?


Offline küshner

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #387 on: July 23, 2018, 01:25:16 PM »
Do you guys think there is a middle ground? I don't mind the brick pedestal, however, in earlier photos, it looks like the brick ended higher off the street than it does now. Along Vine you can see a weird lip about 40ft up from street level (link below). What about removing the brick up to there and keeping the rest? Idk, I'm no architect, but I always thought the brick wall added character to the building.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/572+Vine+St,+Cincinnati,+OH+45202/@39.1021466,-84.513206,3a,49.3y,305.7h,109.66t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF9_za0QmH_nGDkX3f4ViCg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fmaps%2Fphotothumb%2Ffd%2Fv1%3Fbpb%3DChAKDnNlYXJjaC5UQUNUSUxFEmYKOAkDTsbBULFBiBF-gguAb6ppcRokCxDThbhCGhsSGQoUChIJA07GwVCxQYgR_rENcqsA4RsQvAQMEgoN_IJOFxWOTqDNGhIJG_lweg6zQYgRePLW-jhTv-sqCg38gk4XFY5OoM0aBAhWEFY%26gl%3DUS!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b150c1c64e03:0x7169aa6f800b827e!8m2!3d39.1021308!4d-84.5132146

Offline SleepyLeroy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #388 on: July 23, 2018, 01:31:36 PM »
Do you guys think there is a middle ground? I don't mind the brick pedestal, however, in earlier photos, it looks like the brick ended higher off the street than it does now. Along Vine you can see a weird lip about 40ft up from street level (link below). What about removing the brick up to there and keeping the rest? Idk, I'm no architect, but I always thought the brick wall added character to the building.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/572+Vine+St,+Cincinnati,+OH+45202/@39.1021466,-84.513206,3a,49.3y,305.7h,109.66t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF9_za0QmH_nGDkX3f4ViCg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fmaps%2Fphotothumb%2Ffd%2Fv1%3Fbpb%3DChAKDnNlYXJjaC5UQUNUSUxFEmYKOAkDTsbBULFBiBF-gguAb6ppcRokCxDThbhCGhsSGQoUChIJA07GwVCxQYgR_rENcqsA4RsQvAQMEgoN_IJOFxWOTqDNGhIJG_lweg6zQYgRePLW-jhTv-sqCg38gk4XFY5OoM0aBAhWEFY%26gl%3DUS!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b150c1c64e03:0x7169aa6f800b827e!8m2!3d39.1021308!4d-84.5132146

Yep originally the end addressed the street much better, but was filled in at some point during a remodel of the dept store area. The original lower hotel lobby was also better oriented for pedestrians but this was also later removed to make it a vehicle entry as was the style of the day. http://www.oxomag.com/terrace-plaza-hotel-cincinnati/biographical-dictionary-of-cincinnati-architects-1788-1940.html

Offline edale

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Terrace Plaza Hotel
« Reply #389 on: July 23, 2018, 01:33:11 PM »
I'm a bit torn on this one. On the one hand, the windowless mass is kind of the whole point of this building, and it is widely regarded as a modernist masterpiece. On the other hand, the base of the building is basically unusable in its current form, and the building has sat vacant for years, at great cost to downtown. Unless and innovative solution can be found, I favor altering the building if it means reactivating the site. I do wonder about the plausibility of converting the base to parking, as that seems to be in perpetual need, and there is no need for daylight in a garage.

I also wonder about the viability of Anderson Birkla to complete this project. They were the development team in charge of converting the 580 building to apartments, and that has been the slowest moving project ever. Seeing how the Terrace Plaza is a much more complicated project, do these guys really have the chops?