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Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 10986 times)

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Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2005, 11:15:40 AM »
Ignorant question:
Knowing where this development is, can there be a way to incorporate the waterfront line?

By the way, the corporate head of IT has told just told me that I am one of the top 25 abusers of the internet in the company in the world.  So I may participate less, at least during the day.  :-(

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2005, 11:54:42 AM »
I hate to be the pessimistic one but isnt 300 units pretty skimpy?  3000 would be a bit more like it.

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2005, 11:56:22 AM »
lol punch what a super superlative... btw isnt if funny how this started out as 170 million then 200 and now 230 as reported by the PD??  Maybe when its near completion we will have a multi billion dollar investment.

Offline MyTwoSense

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2005, 11:58:00 AM »
 :clap:    :clap:

lets pray there is only a small parking lot included.  we dont need more parking spaces/lots downtown.

What is this, the third reincarnation of the flats?  Second since 1983?

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2005, 12:03:21 PM »
I think that the waterfront line dissects the project.  Doesn't Wolstein own the land between main avenue and west 10th.  I know that long ago they had plans to turn that mega-lot into a parking garage. 

I really like that there will be public boardwalk.  I would hope that it could someday stretch down to settlers landing.  If done well, that would certainly improve public access to the waterfront.  I am excited to see the plans.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2005, 12:05:12 PM »
Ferrari,

I agree with you about the units.  But, maybe it makes sense with the development as planned.  I would hope for more, but 150 condos is a very healthy amount.

Offline WoollyBear

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2005, 12:51:13 PM »
I was kind of puzzeled by the amount of residential. For $230 million I thought there would be more. There must be a lot of office, and commercial planned. This is great news for Cleveland, hopefully it blends in with the WHD nicely.

Offline MayDay

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #97 on: May 12, 2005, 01:01:09 PM »
"wow, some very good news! mayday you have a lunch appointment, bring camera!!!"

Um, excuse me but did it ever occur to anyone that I might have a life

Just kidding, of course I don't have a life (sad but true) so I will do my best to be there!

Folks as far as the residential count - well, the Bingham has a little over 300 units spread over 12 enormous floors. So take the Bingham and flatten it to say, 3 or 4 stories but spread it out to accomodate the same total of units. That covers a lot of space if you ask me.

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #98 on: May 12, 2005, 03:30:18 PM »
How much did Pinnacle end ip costing for comparison reasons?  Then we can predict the size ans scope of this project and its relationship to amount of units.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #99 on: May 12, 2005, 04:05:45 PM »
Yeah, 300 units isn't that considerable, but there's already so much residential down there and not as much commercial/retail diversity.  So, commercial focus is ok by me!  And spinoff residential will surely follow once this one gets moving.  You can bet on it!

I'm stoked...

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2005, 06:04:48 PM »
I wonder how much of the projects price tag is things like the public boardwalk and reconfigured streets and sewers.  The earlier articles say they are looking for $20M from the city for stuff like that

Offline Ewoops

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #101 on: May 12, 2005, 08:05:12 PM »
Does anyone have any idea if there are firm commitments from a bookstore, movie theater, or grocer yet?  If that were the case, I'd sign up right now.  I can't wait until they announce the details of the project, this could be incredible.  I still think that mixing in boutique hotels would make the area even more incredible.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2005, 08:12:02 PM »
absolutely!  and I really can't wait to hear about all the possible retailers...hold your breath for monday!

Offline zaceman

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2005, 08:25:26 PM »
it sounds better than a lifestyle center... lol

i wonder if this will help spark some other projects like district park and the proposed W9th tower across the street.  this is definately going to link the WD to the Flats and its RIGHT on the WL so its a perfect transit oritented development as well.  i wonder how that will look from the WL since right about there is where the train elevates up.   i could see them adding another station too

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #104 on: May 13, 2005, 12:26:03 AM »
Stonebridge also has just over 300 units, I believe, and you see how huge that project is.  And it includes a small amount of office and commercial, too -- and this is expanding.   Wolstein's tipping a lot toward commercial -- I too am a bit taken by the inflation from $170 to $230M since December -- maybe that's good.  I'm not quite sure of the physical parameters, but I don't think, at this time, it will extend north of the Waterfront Rapid line (onto P.A. land) at this time.  This project should spin-off development -- although let's not count on too much, this is a slow developing town that is not prone to multi-unit development on a large scale.   Don't forget, the handsome Riverbend condo's been there since the early 1980s.  We're not like D.C., Chicago or Toronto where they throw up huge developments at the drop of a hat.  One disturbing note is I think Wolstein is oriented toward bulldozing all the storefronts on Old River, which would be too bad.  While some of its junk, there’s a good deal of unique, historic architecture there.  It would tend to presage the more boring, bland stuff like that in Baltimore’s Harborplace/Inner Harbor (gag).

My biggest hope is that this development, whatever form it shall eventually take (and will probably evolve significantly from what's on paper, now -- that's the way development is), that it is a more substantial/permanent revival of the East Bank into something more than the fly-by-night bars and restaurants of the 1980s/90s -- by all accounts, it will be.  Maybe, just maybe, this will generate more daytime foot traffic than exists right now (which is close to nil) And I hope that and expect the Waterfront Line will reap the traffic benefits, so its naysayers will shut the hell up and go away once and for all.   :-D

And let’s hope this will spell bye-bye to all that surface parking behind the building lines and the Waterfront Rapid.  (btw – surface parking just grew in the area as the derelict, though fixable, buildings next to/behind the Flat Iron Café were torn down a month or so ago – double damn!  :whip:

I've got the feeling this development will be compact with a lot of density, which will be good.  We'll learn more Monday, I guess, when Wolstein, Jane & co plan to go on a splashy media blitz.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #105 on: May 13, 2005, 12:44:40 AM »
Answers part of my question (from the PD site): Location: north from Main Avenue to the Norfolk Southern railroad tracks and between West 10th Street and the east bank of the Cuyahoga River

One big negative: I hear a chunk of $$ for this is coming from our already starving school system -- that really stinks, indeed.   Kinda curbs a bit of my enthusiasm.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2005, 08:00:36 PM »
I guess the boundaries are a little smaller than I had previously expected.  And I didn't realize it entailed demolition of existing "historic" structures.  Though, if we want public access to the waterfront, I guess there's no choice....

I'm excited to see this spill over (eventually) to north of the Norfolk Southern tracks.  There was a plan several years back for a World Trade Center of Cleveland office complex & hotel that included building over the Waterfront Line and featured a new station inside the complex.  I'm assuming this has been dead for years, but it demonstrates that the potential for an additional station is pretty reasonable.

Can't wait for monday!

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2005, 08:44:41 PM »
Most of the Historic stuctures are on the other side of Old River Road.  I hope some of them can be incorporated, especially the old Kindler's (I can't remember what it is now).

The WTC on the Waterfront Line site is dead, but I've seen rumors recently of a potential Gateway site.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2005, 10:49:21 AM »
Eventually, MGD, plans call for development north of the NS tracks as part of the Harborplace development, but I'm wondering whether more brownfields clean-up money will be needed for that parcel -- if I'm not wrong, $1M in such funds have been allocated for cleanup of the area Wolstein now plans to develop...

Also, you’re right about adding a Waterfront Line stop on that elevated portion of tracks -- space for such was provided (the embankment widens allowing for potential train platforms in that area) for a station, originally, for a proposed Great Lakes Aquarium that sadly was never built -- slated to be, I think, just north of the tracks.  It's very likely that RTA will revisit building a stop there with this new development which will give the development extremely intimate rail service -- much like that in Shaker Square...

Also, I agree with X -- there are a lot of interesting, historic facades along ORR that I hope Wolstein incorporates into the project rather than bulldozes.  Sadly, if I recall, his original stated intentions were to clear the area entirely and build anew... this wouldn't be good imho.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2005, 01:05:56 PM »
Regarding the facades, I like the building where the Harvard brewhouse once was.  But, I think that we need to put things in perspective.  I don't love that they will tear down some old buildings, but I view it as a necessary evil  From what I've heard, the streets will be reconfigured.  The locations of the existing structures are not situated in accord with the plans.  This project needs to be done right.  It can really boost the warehouse district and it can spur development of the port land to the north.  If the right retailers can be enticed, such as a bookstore, I think that demand will really rise for the housing units.  I am very excited to see this.  However, it looks like everything is far from done.  All the land is yet to be amassed. That can be a very elongated process.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2005, 03:44:20 PM »
I'm worried that, as always seems to happen in this town, we will get as far as demolishing the really nice historic buildings and then the project will stall and we'll be left with nothing.  I've been feeling really pessimistic lately, I guess.

Offline Frank V

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2005, 06:50:41 AM »
I think the reason the price has escalated is due to rising steel and wood prices.

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2005, 11:13:11 AM »
God help us indeed.  I would like not to see eminent domain used, nasty thing that is, abuse of property rights.

Offline punch

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2005, 05:43:33 PM »
It sounds like he is ready to deal if the price is right, but I agree with Ferrari, we cant use eminent domain.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2005, 07:13:08 PM »
Sometimes we have a very skewed version of property rights.  If one man's right to property hurts a city's ability to provide for its citizens, then we have a system that fails.  This summer's supreme court case will be very interesting.  That one seems abusive, while Cleveland's case would pale in comparision.   

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2005, 07:14:28 PM »
If the price is right?  The problem is that landowners like George get very greedy and demand much more than their property is really worth.  Let's just hope that he takes the higher road.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2005, 07:16:25 PM »
My third consecutive post..

Is there any engineering issues at play here?  How high can you build on land that is so close to the rigver and lake?  Also, is the land north of the tracks reclaimed?

Offline FerrariEnzo

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2005, 09:23:27 PM »
Breaking your string wimwar.

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2005, 10:21:17 PM »
Yes, all downtown land north of the tracks has been reclaimed. There are old pictures that show the railroad tracks hugging the shoreline. But don't take my word for it. Here's a picture from the 1890s, showing the downtown lakefront. In the background are the old Lakeside Hospitals, between what is now East 9th and East 12th streets....



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Offline StrangeBrew

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #119 on: May 16, 2005, 08:36:11 AM »
The Flats are the original settlement area in Cleveland.  They have basically been developed since the Moses set anchor.  During the late nineteenth century and early twentieth, various refineries and other industries sat where bars and warehouse would later come.  The land beneath those bars is a little dirty...to say the least.