PLEASE READ!!!

***** ALL users will have to request a password reset BEFORE you will be able to log into the forum. See the thread in the forum issues section for further instructions. If you have issues with this, email us at admin@urbanohio.com. *****

Author Topic: Cleveland: Global Center for Health Innovation & Convention Center  (Read 25296 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline MyTwoSense

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 29418
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7110 on: November 29, 2012, 11:00:54 AM »
^^Anyone notice their caption of the "Cleveland Clinic" is UH and CWRU?

I was just about to comment on that.  Since this is a blog, I will take the "article" with a grain of salt.  It's garbage!

Offline mrclifton88

  • Premium Member
  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ***
  • Posts: 1277
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7111 on: December 13, 2012, 07:00:57 AM »
Just thought Id cross post my photo tour here if anyone would like to see it:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,28146.0.html

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46088
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7112 on: December 13, 2012, 10:23:40 AM »
Just thought Id cross post my photo tour here if anyone would like to see it:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,28146.0.html

Thanks! Great photos and information.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline McLovin

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7113 on: December 13, 2012, 02:41:37 PM »
Just thought Id cross post my photo tour here if anyone would like to see it:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,28146.0.html
I enjoyed reading these two parts:
"Johnson Controls will be moving its national sales office here from Milwaukee"

"The current County headquarter building is obviously being thought of as a site for a new large parking deck and hotel"

Offline urb-a-saurus

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 285
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7114 on: December 14, 2012, 07:50:21 AM »
I drove by on Lakeside yesterday, and I thought that the slope creating vertical clearance for the Lakeside entrance was a stroke of genius.  Not only did it allow for the 30' ceiling height, but it gave the center a street presence that an underground facility would not normally have, as well a raised vantage point from which to view the Lakefront.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46088
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7115 on: December 14, 2012, 11:23:19 AM »
I drove by on Lakeside yesterday, and I thought that the slope creating vertical clearance for the Lakeside entrance was a stroke of genius.  Not only did it allow for the 30' ceiling height, but it gave the center a street presence that an underground facility would not normally have, as well a raised vantage point from which to view the Lakefront.

x2
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Online X

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 9659
    • Western Reserve Meadery
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7116 on: December 14, 2012, 12:51:43 PM »
I don't like it.  It prevents the Mall from being the one grand space it was, and imo changes the sense of place for the worse.  Practically, it makes the space less useful as a playfield (I liked to play frisbee there, others used to play soccer).  I'm sure it can still be used, it just isn't as good anymore for that, and that's something that the young, physically active residents we are trying to lure Downtown would enjoy.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46088
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7117 on: December 14, 2012, 01:09:00 PM »
That's probably not the best place to play sports, with the needs of a convention center taking the first priority. A sports field could be built anywhere, although I realize it has not. There certainly does need to be such a field in or close to downtown. But if I had to choose between that and a better-designed convention center, I choose the latter.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline Cleburger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3988
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7118 on: December 14, 2012, 01:27:28 PM »
I am not a fan due to the deviation from the mall's original sightlines and planning.   

But, with this being said I realize to keep the convention center there something had to be done.   What is actually under that rise?

Offline Firenze98

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7119 on: December 14, 2012, 02:02:51 PM »
^ The front door.

Offline Cleburger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 3988
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7120 on: December 14, 2012, 02:09:23 PM »
^ The front door.

Ahh well, Burnham Plan be damned, we'll have to live with it for the next 30-40 years until the underused Convention center is deemed outmoded and a new one is built amidst controversy.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46088
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7121 on: December 14, 2012, 02:15:27 PM »
Glass half-empty guy....

"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Online Pugu

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1632
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7122 on: December 14, 2012, 02:42:21 PM »
Quote from: Cleburger
Ahh well, Burnham Plan be damned....

indeed. also, don't forget CMSD selling their HQ bldg.....so much for the mall being surrounded by public bldgs....

Online jeremyck01

  • Key Tower 947'
  • ****
  • Posts: 875
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7123 on: December 14, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »
Quote from: Cleburger
Ahh well, Burnham Plan be damned....

indeed. also, don't forget CMSD selling their HQ bldg.....so much for the mall being surrounded by public bldgs....

Really?  The Burnham plan must be stuck to at all costs?  The CMSD building isn't being demolished, it will serve a new purpose.  Nothing wrong with that, especially if it's a new purpose which brings more people to the mall, i.e. a hotel.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 03:08:41 PM by jeremyck01 »

Online X

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 9659
    • Western Reserve Meadery
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7124 on: December 14, 2012, 10:34:05 PM »
That's probably not the best place to play sports, with the needs of a convention center taking the first priority. A sports field could be built anywhere, although I realize it has not. There certainly does need to be such a field in or close to downtown. But if I had to choose between that and a better-designed convention center, I choose the latter.

I didn't say we should place the needs of a sports field above the needs of the convention center.  What I will say is that we got an inferior design because we placed an arbitrary number on what we would spend, instead of spending what we should have to have done the project right.  It's too late now, but I'm not going to pretend that I think the solution was genius or anything but a compromise.

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46088
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7125 on: December 14, 2012, 10:59:51 PM »
I didn't say we should place the needs of a sports field above the needs of the convention center.  What I will say is that we got an inferior design because we placed an arbitrary number on what we would spend, instead of spending what we should have to have done the project right.  It's too late now, but I'm not going to pretend that I think the solution was genius or anything but a compromise.

But I did. I said I placed the needs of a convention center over a sports field, and I could understand why others might have done so too. Though I doubt the convention center designers even considered sports programming for the greenspace, except maybe a sledding hill! Probably the only other programming they considered was using the slope as seating for Movies on the Mall.
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline MayDay

  • Administrator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 10315
    • Cleveland Skyscrapers
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7126 on: December 15, 2012, 05:04:46 AM »
"What I will say is that we got an inferior design because we placed an arbitrary number on what we would spend, instead of spending what we should have to have done the project right."

If I recall correctly, it was the decision of three former county commissioners that decided what would be spent. ;-)

Online X

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 9659
    • Western Reserve Meadery
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7127 on: December 15, 2012, 09:30:40 AM »
Fair enough.^

Offline StapHanger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 8482
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7128 on: December 15, 2012, 11:21:31 AM »
And more precisely, wasn't the project budget determined by the max amount of additional sales tax revenue the commissioners were able to raise without voter approval? I guess they could have used it all for the cc, though, and not built a med mart.   But otherwise I think the realistic choice was this budget or no project at all.

I don't care much for the Group Plan so not concerned about disrupting it, though I do wish the hump could have been on the St Clair side with the slope facing the lake. But I don't think that would have worked with the topo and programming needs.

Offline Mov2Ohio

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2279
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7129 on: December 15, 2012, 12:25:14 PM »
^I agree. The Group Plan buildings are nice to look at and have great sightlines for photos, but the nature of those buildings makes this area a ghost town. I suppose that if the train station that was planned was built there would be a little more foot traffic, but since there isn't a lot of street presence there is not much you can do to get people to walk through the malls unless they have specific business to handle in one of those buildings.

Offline dave68

  • Key Tower 947'
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7130 on: December 15, 2012, 12:44:58 PM »
i posted a plan that i believe would activate the malls with the lakefront plan
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:46:35 PM by dave68 »

Offline LoveCLE

  • Dirt Lot 0'
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7131 on: December 15, 2012, 12:47:05 PM »
I don't like it.  It prevents the Mall from being the one grand space it was, and imo changes the sense of place for the worse.  Practically, it makes the space less useful as a playfield (I liked to play frisbee there, others used to play soccer).  I'm sure it can still be used, it just isn't as good anymore for that, and that's something that the young, physically active residents we are trying to lure Downtown would enjoy.

YP Advocacy Groups have been working to keep Mall C as an open field, so that sports like frisbee and football can be played there.

Online X

  • Global Moderator
  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 9659
    • Western Reserve Meadery
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7132 on: December 15, 2012, 12:49:46 PM »
Strap, yes, that's correct.  The problem is that they set that as the budget and designed around it, instead of even trying to find the extra funds to do the thing better.  Maybe they wouldn't have found them, and we would have been stuck with just that amount, but at least try!

Offline bjk

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 283
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7133 on: December 15, 2012, 01:13:03 PM »
Didn't the original Burnham plan call for a train station at the north end that would have blocked any lake view?

Offline KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 46088
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7134 on: December 16, 2012, 07:14:40 AM »
Read more here: http://archive.is/1GiW






Sorry for the big image.....




After the Van Swerigens started building the Cleveland Union Terminal complex (now Tower City Center) on Public Square, plans for the station at the north end of the Group Plan were scuttled. But there will still attempts made at reusing the lakefront for public purposes, including this 1933 plan......

"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Offline dave68

  • Key Tower 947'
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7135 on: December 16, 2012, 09:40:07 AM »
My concept of rotating Cleveland Browns Stadium redesigned with open ends incorporates the original plan which I believe would bridge the gap between the lakefront and the malls.  Think of all the connected activity on The Malls during game days. None of my plan involves destroying the look of the malls  The view from the convention ballroom would be one end of the stadium.  The stadium field should be opened to the public in the off season since the citizens of the county helped to pay for the design.Again activating the malls. The malls continuation to the lakefront would be another flat area for Clevelanders to enjoy.



Offline Flee2theCleve

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1018
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7136 on: December 16, 2012, 10:25:53 AM »
Given some of KJP's earlier comments, I don't think building over top of the existing rail lines would be possible.

Offline MyTwoSense

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 29418
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7137 on: December 16, 2012, 10:36:54 AM »
My concept of rotating Cleveland Browns Stadium redesigned with open ends incorporates the original plan which I believe would bridge the gap between the lakefront and the malls.  Think of all the connected activity on The Malls during game days. None of my plan involves destroying the look of the malls  The view from the convention ballroom would be one end of the stadium.  The stadium field should be opened to the public in the off season since the citizens of the county helped to pay for the design.Again activating the malls. The malls continuation to the lakefront would be another flat area for Clevelanders to enjoy.





Offline mrnyc

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 12972
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7138 on: December 17, 2012, 11:12:13 AM »
Strap, yes, that's correct.  The problem is that they set that as the budget and designed around it, instead of even trying to find the extra funds to do the thing better.  Maybe they wouldn't have found them, and we would have been stuck with just that amount, but at least try!


wait, wouldn't doing it better or right, that is, to maintain the purity of the burnham plan and also build a bigger and better cc, have involved digging out the pit rather than raising the roof?

that would probably have at least doubled the costs. didn't we have some projection about that back in the thread or somewhere? not sure.

so given such higher costs, is that what cleveland should have spent its tax $ on?

i bet voters would have said no way, especially with the IX available for big shows.

and that would be a shame to delay this project because the cc needed rebuilt pretty badly (imo the mm is just frosting until it proves itself).

Offline StapHanger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 8482
Re: Cleveland: Convention Center / Medical Mart
« Reply #7139 on: December 17, 2012, 11:26:11 AM »
^Yeah, I think that's right (and agree with it).  And I think the county (and convention/visitors bureau) had been looking at various funding possibilities for several years, so I don't think there was that much additional money left to be found for this type of project.

Under the near term plan (i.e., without raising a lot more money to "finish" Mall B), how unuasable is the main grassy area for casual athletic use?  I think the plans (and web cam) show a future path across the middle of the field which could be a hazard. Maybe that's something the YPs loveCLE mentions are trying to block, which I would be cool with.  I would much rather see active use of that grass than years of nothingness as we try to raise money, and even then, I'd rather see the money go to the "rooms" and the proposed stuff north of Lakeside.