PLEASE READ!!!

***** ALL users will have to request a password reset BEFORE you will be able to log into the forum. See the thread in the forum issues section for further instructions. If you have issues with this, email us at admin@urbanohio.com. Also, check your spam folder. *****

We are still having a lot of users try to log on before resetting your password. You will continue to get an error until you reset your password!!

Author Topic: Cleveland: Campus District  (Read 1502 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SixthCity

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2013, 12:13:02 PM »
Clayco student-housing plan for former Jewish Federation site needs design revisions, boards say


http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/12/clayco_student-housing_plan_fo.html#incart_river_default

Weird that there was no mention of the Playhouse Square Building?

Offline Mendo

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1118
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2013, 12:54:01 PM »
Weird that there was no mention of the Playhouse Square Building?

Seems like they have no issue with demolishing both buildings, but want a proper development put in their place. I agree with the planning commission in this case. I would rather they save the Rogers (Playhouse Square) building, but high quality mid-rise in its place is a decent compromise.

Quote
During meetings on Thursday and Friday mornings, board members offered little resistance to Clayco Realty Group's plans to demolish the buildings, including the federation's former headquarters at 1750 Euclid Ave.

Quote
Various public proposals fell through. And real estate brokers pointed out that the federation building and the neighboring Playhouse Square Building, a 1920s structure also known as the Rogers building, needed major infrastructure investments and would be difficult to adapt for modern offices or multiple tenants.

Offline clvlndr

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2013, 01:06:08 PM »
My fear is that retail spaces seem to have trouble getting filled over there, so the developer doesn't want to have to deal with that and rather have residential units in those spaces. More concerning to me is 668 Euclid Avenue. Now THAT is a major 1st floor dead zone in an area where filling retail spaces shouldn't be as hard!

I hear what you're saying... Filling 668 has been slow, no doubt, but I thought they did get that Environment 4 Business (IIRC) firm as well as the Potbelly's sandwich shop  on the corner... I guess I'd rather the retail space be built in, even if it sits empty for a while -- yes, I know Clayco is resisting this, but businesses and/or restaurants will eventually come. I'm not a huge fan of pop-up businesses, but at least they keep a space active... Having no space at all makes a permanent wall...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:19:34 PM by clvlndr »

Offline Mendo

  • One World Trade Center 1,776'
  • ****
  • Posts: 1118
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2013, 01:51:40 PM »
I think you two are talking about different buildings. The ground floor space at 515 Euclid is full thanks to Potbelly opening last year. I don't think 668 Euclid is actually available to lease. The Prospect side is mostly full. The Euclid side is just a lobby. I thought I saw a small office or something adjacent to the lobby but nothing else.

Not all store fronts are the same. Just because others are empty doesn't mean this would be too. It's a new space with a built in audience. And a growing neighborhood right next door. Keep in mind this new building is practically next door to the Keith building and Playhouse Square.

Online KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 45320
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2013, 02:02:59 PM »
Except for lunch hours, I think the area near 668 Euclid has less pedestrian traffic than East 18th and Euclid. I would think East 18th/Euclid warrants some new ground-floor mixed use. What does that area lack retail-wise or service-wise?
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline Hts121

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 18146
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2013, 02:08:20 PM »
All of the storefronts between 18th and 21st.... are they back up to full capacity?  I seem to remember that we lost some businesses there when the Euclid Corridor was under construction.  Is the deli still there?  That place always seemed popular, at least moreso than the Giro place

As for what would work at this property, I would guess those businesses which cater towards the college aged crowd moreso than theatre goers.  A convenience store or CVS/Wallgreens/RiteAid would probably do well, as would any fast-food joint or sandwich/pizza shop.  A coffee shop, perhaps.  I doubt any botique/independent style retailer would survive very long.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 02:10:06 PM by Hts121 »

Offline Whipjacka

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1085
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2013, 03:21:22 PM »
I think there needs to be a hard-line position that any private construction on euclid must include space for retail.  At least from public square to the highway.

Offline SixthCity

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2013, 04:32:20 PM »
Doesn't the market determine whether there can be ground floor retail?  I am all for street level store fronts but merely building them doesn't put tenants in.  By the looks of it, this is not Clayco's first look at a spreadsheet.  If we still have vacancies along Euclid, why would we build more space we can't fill?

When more people move downtown it will become profitable to build out a storefront...and so they will.  These guys are developers - they exist to make money.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 04:35:14 PM by SixthCity »

Offline CbusTransit

  • Huntington Tower 330'
  • **
  • Posts: 226
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2013, 04:57:07 PM »
@sixthcity, that is true that developers exist to make money. And for that reason, they will tend to create utilitarian, single-use developments. They are cheap to build and easier to manage. It is the role of public agencies to ensure that what they build meets other needs as well--the vibrancy of the street, etc. That means balancing the needs of the developer with the needs of the community. If the development can still be profitable--just slightly less profitable--and inclusive of a few first-floor retail spaces, then we should require it. On the flip side, if a developer came with a proposal for a gas station (which could probably be extremely profitable), the commission would deny it because it doesn't suit the public interest.

Also, just because there are vacancies along Euclid does not necessarily mean retail doesn't work there. In Columbus, for instance, there are a number of vacancies along high street, but it is because none of these vacancies are in updated, modern spaces. I have spoken with downtown people here that have said they could fill numerous spots if there were appropriately sized, new spaces along High Street. There may just be a mismatch on Euclid Avenue as well (I don't know, just surmising).

Offline StapHanger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 8446
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2013, 05:20:41 PM »
How many vacancies are there on Euclid between 18th and the Innerbelt?  Honest question.

Offline SixthCity

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2013, 05:45:50 PM »
@sixthcity, that is true that developers exist to make money. And for that reason, they will tend to create utilitarian, single-use developments. They are cheap to build and easier to manage. It is the role of public agencies to ensure that what they build meets other needs as well--the vibrancy of the street, etc. That means balancing the needs of the developer with the needs of the community. If the development can still be profitable--just slightly less profitable--and inclusive of a few first-floor retail spaces, then we should require it. On the flip side, if a developer came with a proposal for a gas station (which could probably be extremely profitable), the commission would deny it because it doesn't suit the public interest.

Also, just because there are vacancies along Euclid does not necessarily mean retail doesn't work there. In Columbus, for instance, there are a number of vacancies along high street, but it is because none of these vacancies are in updated, modern spaces. I have spoken with downtown people here that have said they could fill numerous spots if there were appropriately sized, new spaces along High Street. There may just be a mismatch on Euclid Avenue as well (I don't know, just surmising).

Behhhhhhhhhh - I have to disagree with the "they will tend to create utilitarian, single-use developments. They are cheap to build and easier to manage."  part.  Retail space rents for multiples more than residential space per square foot and having a commercial tenant lease can be a cash cow for the developer.  That argument may work in low density areas where land uses can't easily coexist (single family homes) but not in the city.  Just about every building in the City is built with ground floor retail for exactly that reason - it made financial sense.  Mixed use buildings weren't created for a civic purpose, they were products of dudes trying to make money from real estate.

As to you're second point I don't have to go further than the empty ground floor in the 668 building, the BF Keith, the old Cousin's Cigar store and even the Langston (if I'm not mistaken).  All new/renovated space and all empty.  Once again, I would LOVE to have something in every storefront but love doesn't change numbers (I've tried).

I guess it would be a compelling reason to make Clayco build ground floor retail in hopes that it would lower the build out costs once the market comes to support more retail.  In fact, I like that logic the more I think about it. 

Offline mjarboe

  • Metropolitan Tower 224'
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2013, 06:06:44 PM »
Hi there -

The Playhouse Square Building was mentioned at the meetings this week. I just didn't have a good place to get into that subject in the story, and most of the (very limited) concerns I've heard about the demolition center on the old federation headquarters.

A city employee from the Housing Development Office spoke at design review and at planning commission about two things: 1. Saving the Playhouse Square Building and potentially incorporating it, or part of it, into a new development (such as lofts for professors or something like that). 2. Incorporating retail into the parking garage on Prospect, to help bring more activity to a street where there's a lot of parking.

The Cleveland Restoration Society speaker focused on the headquarters building and didn't have a position on the Playhouse Square Building.

On a separate note, I think there might be some confusion about the first floor of the 668 Euclid building. On the Euclid side, Wyse advertising occupies most of the ground-floor space. That's why it looks sort of dead -- it's offices. K&D also had to go through some after-the-fact machinations with window-screening inside, to satisfy the state historic preservation office. That's why you can't really see a lot of activity from the street.

The remaining Euclid frontage is a lobby entrance for the apartments and offices. The retail storefronts for that building are really on Prospect.

Michelle
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 06:07:10 PM by mjarboe »

Offline Confiteordeo

  • Burj Khalifa 2,722'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1050
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2013, 06:53:15 PM »
As to you're second point I don't have to go further than the empty ground floor in the 668 building, the BF Keith, the old Cousin's Cigar store and even the Langston (if I'm not mistaken).  All new/renovated space and all empty.  Once again, I would LOVE to have something in every storefront but love doesn't change numbers (I've tried).

I guess it would be a compelling reason to make Clayco build ground floor retail in hopes that it would lower the build out costs once the market comes to support more retail.  In fact, I like that logic the more I think about it. 

So that's one vacant storefront on Euclid between 18th and the freeway in an older building (Cousin's Cigar,) and they were evicted because CSU is planning to move administrative offices for NEOMED and a health clinic there (plus the whole smoke-free campus thing.)  Doesn't sound too shabby to me.

Even so, the presence of one or even several vacant storefronts doesn't necessarily mean we can't accommodate more.  With the way CSU is growing, we need to anticipate future demand and not just focus on the current conditions (which aren't bad to begin with anyway.)

Offline clvlndr

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 6368
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2013, 06:55:35 PM »
I think you two are talking about different buildings. The ground floor space at 515 Euclid is full thanks to Potbelly opening last year. I don't think 668 Euclid is actually available to lease. The Prospect side is mostly full. The Euclid side is just a lobby. I thought I saw a small office or something adjacent to the lobby but nothing else.

Not all store fronts are the same. Just because others are empty doesn't mean this would be too. It's a new space with a built in audience. And a growing neighborhood right next door. Keep in mind this new building is practically next door to the Keith building and Playhouse Square.
You're sooooo right, I am thinking of a different spot all together... That's the trouble buildings as numbers... oh well.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 06:57:19 PM by clvlndr »

Offline jhonopolis

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2013, 08:14:31 PM »
All of the storefronts between 18th and 21st.... are they back up to full capacity?  I seem to remember that we lost some businesses there when the Euclid Corridor was under construction.  Is the deli still there?  That place always seemed popular, at least moreso than the Giro place

As for what would work at this property, I would guess those businesses which cater towards the college aged crowd moreso than theatre goers.  A convenience store or CVS/Wallgreens/RiteAid would probably do well, as would any fast-food joint or sandwich/pizza shop.  A coffee shop, perhaps.  I doubt any botique/independent style retailer would survive very long.

There is that convenience store/grocery store there, a jimmy johns, subway, and the relocated rascal house. Bar uno in the student center.

Playhouse square has a lot of vacancies/ poorly used first floor retail space too so I doubt there is much need for over there.

Offline YO to the CLE

  • Kettering Tower 408'
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2013, 09:37:56 PM »
Again, this is coming from someone who has been going to CSU for four years and making the trek from 24th to public square regularly. I PROMISE you guys that there are very few vacant storefronts between public square and the inner belt ( minus the area between 9th and 12th which will soon be changing). I can name two off the top of my head and that's it. The old Viking tavern and the old acapella space in the Keith building. Thats it. The rest is accounted for. The cousins cigar space is planned to have another quick eatery for CSU students. We need a campus bar to replace the Viking tavern. Seriously. Anyone got a few extra dollars lying around to spend on opening a bar would make a KILLING!!

Offline freethink

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2013, 10:12:03 PM »
From the renderings I can see where some retail would make sense. But I am not that concerned about it. There is certain to be activity along Euclid with students coming in and out and using that area as a meeting place and work area. What will be accomplished with another JimmyJohns or PizzaHut in those spaces. I am much more interested in the prospect of 500 students venturing out into the surrounding area and finding the services and goods that they need as opposed to taking the elevator to the lobby and walking twenty feet into a store right outside the building.

Offline jhonopolis

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2013, 10:15:33 PM »
The bigger problem is underutilized first floor space than vacant.

The A Cafe just went out of business so that space is now open. The spaces along star plaza are also largely vacant. The entire north side of Euclid between Cowell and Hubbard and the Allen Theater is grossly misused, east 9th to east 12 is all vacant but hopefully will improve, although I fear we will be gaining another parking garage entrance. Pnc tower's "plaza" is poor street frontage, 668's office wall is terrible. The arcades are improving there frontage, although I believe some of those spaces might be free rent, but still a gain.  The corner alley takes up like 4 storefronts along Euclid which sucks. Positively Cleveland uses a storefront for a conference room.  The May company building has several vacant spaces.

We have so much potential for Euclid but seem to miss the boat.  This building should probably have retail space, but I'm not sure the demand is there based on the other buildings. Euclid should be our retail street.

We have Superior, St Clair, Lakeside, Ontario, and East 9th to be our streets devoid of life!

Offline Bookman

  • Kettering Tower 408'
  • **
  • Posts: 277
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2013, 09:19:28 PM »
It's not only the empty storefronts that makes the developers cautious about planning for retail space, it's also the history of the uses of the storefronts.  For example, the space recently vacated by Viking Tavern was a Mr. Hero's, but for not more than 8 years.  CSU using the Union Building resulted in Cousins Cigar moving. Rascal House is building out space and there is a Pizza Pan just 50 feet away.  Marino's Hair has a loyal following, but he is nowhere at capacity as a service business.  Johnny's Deli is long gone and I heard it was because they stopped paying the rent.  What you may not know is that the prior owner of Johnny's sold it because the revenue just wasn't where they needed it to be.

The 1900 store has only been there just over two years and has devolved into a beverage store from what I hear.  China Sea is just opening, before that the space was empty for at least 4 years if I remember correctly.  Bon Apetit has only been there for two years.  Then there's the open space which was Best Steak & Gyros, but that closed in 2007 or maybe even longer ago. 

What is now Burgers2Beer was a Southwest Mo's just over a year ago.  Jimmy John's has only been there for around 3 years.  Prior to these two eateries, the space was empty for at least 5 years.

Brothers Printing has been a fixture since the 70's, though that business relies on corporate customers.  Getting more residents in the area isn't going to necessarily generate more revenue for them.  I hate to say this, but I think the brothers will be looking for a new use for their space in the next 5 years.

New construction occurred in 2007 resulting in the University Lofts Bookstore opening in 2008. It probably isn't generating anywhere near the revenue that they expected.  The bookstore business is really challenging, trust me, I know.  The Credit Union just opened within the last two years.  The Mac & Cheese place has only been there since 2012.

The last building on the block is now empty.  It was the leasing office for The Langston, before that it was a Court Reports school.

My point to this long post is to simply say that if there was stability in the uses of the existing street level retail, then I would wholeheartedly agree that the project at E. 18th should include space for more retail.  Since we really don't have stability, then I can't blame the developer for not planning for retail.

Offline YO to the CLE

  • Kettering Tower 408'
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2013, 10:21:45 PM »
Seriously, you guys don't make any sense to me. We complain that the Planning Commission doesn't push for good design, and when they finally do the right thing, we critique the hell out of everything. Complaining about Corner Alley and Positively Cleveland? Seriously? Positively Cleveland is a perfect location for out of towners, and how many other cities of our size can claim a bowling alley downtown. And as far as the claim that retail is relatively new around CSU...so what? it was only a couple years ago that we just started getting an actual campus life. These places have opened up BECAUSE of the influx of resident students. News flash, 1900 Food and Beverage has always been a "beverage" store that sold snack food as well. This has been the same way since my freshman year when I bought "beverages" there under age. Every campus has one. Hell other campuses have 5 or 6 1900's. Euclid has come a lonnnggg way and is only getting better. I am all for criticism, and I agree on some points, but this thread is getting a little ridiculous.

Offline Bookman

  • Kettering Tower 408'
  • **
  • Posts: 277
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2013, 11:40:12 PM »
Ok, so if the Planning Commission makes Clayco have the first floor on Euclid become retail space, what kind of retail would you suggest?  What type of retail is missing in the Campus District?

Look at the Langston project to get an idea of the challenges of securing tenants for new retail space.  There are plenty of residents in that area, but there must be factors that have made the decision to sign a contract and build out the space a less than easy deal.  Is the rent too high?  Is there too much competition or are there other expenses that won't allow the business to be profitable enough to justify the investment?

There is still plenty of space on Euclid Ave for more retail within easy walking distance of the Clayco project.  If it were up to me, I'd let them do the project as just residential.  If a clear need for more retail develops, then I'm sure other spaces in the area would get filled and maybe some of the surface lots between E. 17th and E. 14th would go away.

Offline StapHanger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 8446
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #111 on: December 08, 2013, 01:52:32 AM »
Thanks Bookman for all the info about local retail space.  I take your point that requiring retail space doesn't mean getting quality retail, but at the same time, this building is likely to be at that site for a long time, and retro-fitting space can be prohibitively expensive even when demand is healthy, so I don't think the current market necessarily makes it a bad idea. Personally, I think the goal should be to make sure the frontage isn't a dead zone, such as ground floor dorm rooms with permanently drawn curtains. I don't think that has to be retail space; I'd be fine to see common areas, such as study rooms or a gym. Just something that gives some clear signs of life to the street.

I realize such a requirement might be a burden on the developer, but short of wrecking the whole project, I'm not sure I'm really bothered by that. We ask land-owners to provide public amenities all the time (e.g., all those plantings along the frontage of surface parking).

Online KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 45320
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #112 on: December 08, 2013, 09:50:13 AM »
Discussion of the design of the building and whether to include sidewalk storefronts is appropriate for this thread. But since the developer has not included sidewalk storefronts in its plan so any discussion of what types of retailers/uses could go there would be speculative. Thus, let's leave the speculation of what kind of retail is needed for Euclid Avenue for the retail thread in Discussions. Thanks.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Online KJP

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 45320
  • Rebuilding the cities that built America.
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2013, 10:44:38 PM »
These guys aren't messing around. It's moved on to design review for approval this week.....



http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2013/12202013/index.php

City Planning Commission
Agenda for December 20, 2013

DF2013-092 - 1750 Euclid Student Housing/Parking Garage New Construction; Demolition of One Office Building and One Mixed-Use Building: Revised Submittal
Project Addresses: 1720 and 1750 Euclid Avenue
Project Representative: Rob Lochner, Clayco Realty Group

EDIT: additional graphics were posted today at the above link. Here's a few of them......







« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 10:39:27 PM by KJP »
America will never be destroyed from the outside. -- Abraham Lincoln.

Offline jhonopolis

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2013, 11:59:44 PM »
It looks like retail might be a part of the euclid ground floor space now.

Offline archangel

  • Great American Tower 665'
  • ***
  • Posts: 567
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2013, 02:36:06 AM »
UNI QLO?! That would be amazing.

Offline brtshrcegr

  • Kettering Tower 408'
  • **
  • Posts: 275
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2013, 05:09:35 AM »
^^ Unfotunately, I think they're just showing Uniqlo and the others retail images as representative of the potential pop-up or temporary retail uses the developer cited earlier.

However, if Uniqlo/Top Shop/etc were the "temporary" retail users, I could get onboard with that!

Offline SixthCity

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2013, 08:49:59 AM »
Well, it certainly looks better.  It could be sexier but I'm willing to take it, I guess.

By the way, did anyone see the construction timeline?  Start construction in April 2014 and completion in July 2014?  That's crazy fast!

Offline StapHanger

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 8446
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2013, 09:40:25 AM »
I'll give them this: they were as responsive as possible to the cry for retail space, without actually providing any retail space.  Looks like they just threw some random sidewalk seating into the rendering and some throw-away pop up eye wash in the presentation. The plan still looks a lot better, though, and the fitness center should provide some signs of life at street level.

Offline SixthCity

  • Jeddah Tower 3,281'
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
Re: Cleveland: Campus District
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2013, 09:50:43 AM »
Wait - on second look I realize I may have been duped by the renderings.  I reacted positively to the outdoor seating scene but what are those people sitting there for?