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Author Topic: Cleveland: Upper Chester  (Read 2658 times)

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Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #330 on: April 20, 2017, 08:03:04 AM »
Obviously the Clinic with its setbacks and greenery is looking to minimize any claustrophobic feeling to its campus. I appreciate posters' preference for urban streetscape, but do we really need it everywhere?  Johns Hopkins has build buildings like this smack dab on the sidewalk and they are still "bunkers" and it is much more depressing than the Clinic's more open approach. Neither of these urban institutions wants or needs a lot of random passers-by, which is why they build the way they do.


Your standards must be pretty low if you're trying to defend this atrocity.   

So I'm not going to defend this particular building given its location and the nature of its green space. However, I think you guys are dismissing his general point out of hand and that the Clinic gets a little too much flak for its love of green space. There is a growing body of evidence that the ability to look at green space outside of your hospital window really does aid in patient recovery. Quite a few hospitals around the country are attempting to add green space in urban settings for this very reason. So while I agree 100% that a lot of what the clinic does is horribly designed from an urbanism perspective... I think we should keep in mind that they're probably attempting to balance good urban design against the desire to have a pretty green campus for their patients to look at out the windows. That said, I don't like this building.

Most unfortunate for people who get sick in Paris or Tokyo.  Funny thing is, the illusion falls apart unless your room is on the first couple floors.  But hey, the more blocks we bulldoze, the more people we can heal!

Online Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #331 on: April 20, 2017, 09:41:17 AM »
Have you seen the street presence of the Mayo Clinic's Rochester campus? Or the street presence of the campus of Boston's Beth Israel Deaconness Medical/Boston Children’s Hospital/Harvard Medical School? Each of these are interwoven with the urban fabric of the surrounding area, produces economic synergies with it, and contributes to the street-level vibrancy of  its environs. They don't wall themselves off from it like Cleveland Clinic has chosen to do, building by building.

Both institutions are working with historic locations and both include setbacks and greenery where they can. Cleveland Clinic is following the current conventional wisdom regarding medical facilities - in the US, anyway. That 'wisdom' can change, but with billion dollar investments already in place all over the country it won't happen fast. You're fighting more than just the Clinic. Be optimistic, though; lately, after some elaborate studies, medical opinion has decided that windows are good.
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Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #332 on: April 20, 2017, 10:03:36 AM »
Doans Corners was a pretty historic, vibrant, pedestrian/transit-friendly urban place that was called Cleveland's second downtown that the Cleveland Clinic leveled in the 1970s to "get rid of crime"....





Compare the top photo from 1946 with this photo I shot from the roof of the Western Reserve's Fenway Manor in 2000:


« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:07:37 AM by KJP »
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Offline BCCLE1

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #333 on: April 20, 2017, 10:10:28 AM »
Doans Corners was a pretty historic, vibrant, pedestrian/transit-friendly urban place that was called Cleveland's second downtown that the Cleveland Clinic leveled in the 1970s to "get rid of crime"....





Getting rid of crime may have been one reason the CC bulldozed all those buildings, but it most likely was not the only reason. How many of those buildings were already boarded up, vandalized, and had no chance of being returned to useful life because of the changing neighborhood at the time.

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #334 on: April 20, 2017, 10:21:38 AM »
Getting rid of crime may have been one reason the CC bulldozed all those buildings, but it most likely was not the only reason. How many of those buildings were already boarded up, vandalized, and had no chance of being returned to useful life because of the changing neighborhood at the time.

I think it has more to do with prevailing urban policies at the time which we demolished neighborhoods in order to "save them." More progressive cities have moved on from those policies and rebuild, restore and create more dense, walkable, inclusive and open built environments with lots of ways to publicly access those buildings from the sidewalks.

If Cleveland Clinic built to engage its surrounding blocks rather than turn inward from them, we'd have more housing for employees clustered around the Clinic, with streets lined with 24-hour restaurants and all-purpose retail like a City Target, hardware stores, clothiers, and more. Instead workers and visitors drive in and out of parking garages or use shuttles to distant lots and never set foot on a sidewalk. It's such a huge missed opportunity to create economic synergies and more spin-off jobs for Cleveland and its residents who have to ride buses an average of 90 minutes just to reach 25 percent of the region's available jobs.
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Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #335 on: April 20, 2017, 10:28:24 AM »
So I'm not going to defend this particular building given its location and the nature of its green space. However, I think you guys are dismissing his general point out of hand and that the Clinic gets a little too much flak for its love of green space. There is a growing body of evidence that the ability to look at green space outside of your hospital window really does aid in patient recovery. Quite a few hospitals around the country are attempting to add green space in urban settings for this very reason. So while I agree 100% that a lot of what the clinic does is horribly designed from an urbanism perspective... I think we should keep in mind that they're probably attempting to balance good urban design against the desire to have a pretty green campus for their patients to look at out the windows. That said, I don't like this building.

This may be what they are attempting, but they've done a miserable job of it over the years. There's a middle ground here: build an attractive campus with greenspace to be looked at and used; and encourage healthy activity by employees and visitors by providing attractive, safe, and shaded pedestrian circulation access and walkable destinations. But the idea the Clinic is promoting health by surrounding itself with a mote of massive, empty lawns and surface parking, demolishing every old building in a quarter mile radius, and inhibiting nearby commercial development with its butt ugly power substations, is, frankly, absurd.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:29:00 AM by StrapHanger »

Offline BCCLE1

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #336 on: April 20, 2017, 10:30:47 AM »
Have you seen the street presence of the Mayo Clinic's Rochester campus? Or the street presence of the campus of Boston's Beth Israel Deaconness Medical/Boston Children’s Hospital/Harvard Medical School? Each of these are interwoven with the urban fabric of the surrounding area, produces economic synergies with it, and contributes to the street-level vibrancy of  its environs. They don't wall themselves off from it like Cleveland Clinic has chosen to do, building by building.

In fact going back to the 1970s the clinic has made a conscious decision to demolish the surrounding neighborhood (notably the mini-downtown at Doan's Corners) and leave it vacant rather than rebuild it much to the opposition of activist residents and council members.

I keep hoping the Clinic will leave its anti-urban 1970s architecture behind and find enlightenment in its urban design principles but alas this building shows they are far from such enlightenment. It remains a scary, street level ghost town of hardened bunkers despite 30,000 people working there.

The CC has not walled itself off. I don't see any fences around it.

If it wasn't for the Clinic and its continuing expansion over the years, what would the area look like without the Clinic's investment. I would think many more empty lots then there are now, and many more structures that would still be on Cleveland's list of buildings "to be" demolished.

And why is the Clinic being singled out as the bad guy, and yet just to the east of it there is One University Circle being constructed without a peep about it not being built in such a way as to embrace urban design standards. One University Circle is designed like a suburban apt tower. It only abuts one street ( Deering Ave) on its south side; its other three sides are not urban friendly. Yet everyone thinks One University Circle is a great design.

The only development that is being planned to fit into an urban setting is the very far of University Circle City Center concept. And there is no guarantee it will come to fruition.

Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #337 on: April 20, 2017, 10:38:27 AM »
^One University Circle is built out pretty much to the edge of its parcel, has ground level retail and no surface parking, no? That seems like a really strong counter-example to the Clinic's approach, no?

These conversations are so frustrating. There is soooooo much room between what the Clinic has actually been doing and the more aggressive "urbanist" demands some people (not me) make. It's totally OK to think the Clinic should be a campus and have green space, but also think it's been doing a terrible job designing itself.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:39:42 AM by StrapHanger »

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #338 on: April 20, 2017, 11:07:08 AM »
The CC has not walled itself off. I don't see any fences around it.

Cute. Walls/fences that discourage pedestrian synergy with the other buildings surrounding blocks are visible but take different forms such as moats of grass, Seas of surface parking, and buildings which have maybe one or two doors and only open to parking lots and have no mixed uses on the ground floor thereby limiting public interaction with each building. It's a very effective way to keep people inside and not interacting with the sidewalk or the surrounding blocks.

Crack open an urban architecture book or two. It will open your eyes to new ways of thinking about the city which is nothing more than just a living organism that relies on basic organic principles in order to fully function and avoid the cancer of blight.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:10:16 AM by KJP »
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Offline Baskervilles

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #339 on: April 20, 2017, 11:19:24 AM »
Obviously the Clinic with its setbacks and greenery is looking to minimize any claustrophobic feeling to its campus. I appreciate posters' preference for urban streetscape, but do we really need it everywhere?  Johns Hopkins has build buildings like this smack dab on the sidewalk and they are still "bunkers" and it is much more depressing than the Clinic's more open approach. Neither of these urban institutions wants or needs a lot of random passers-by, which is why they build the way they do.


Your standards must be pretty low if you're trying to defend this atrocity.   

So I'm not going to defend this particular building given its location and the nature of its green space. However, I think you guys are dismissing his general point out of hand and that the Clinic gets a little too much flak for its love of green space. There is a growing body of evidence that the ability to look at green space outside of your hospital window really does aid in patient recovery. Quite a few hospitals around the country are attempting to add green space in urban settings for this very reason. So while I agree 100% that a lot of what the clinic does is horribly designed from an urbanism perspective... I think we should keep in mind that they're probably attempting to balance good urban design against the desire to have a pretty green campus for their patients to look at out the windows. That said, I don't like this building.

Most unfortunate for people who get sick in Paris or Tokyo.  Funny thing is, the illusion falls apart unless your room is on the first couple floors.  But hey, the more blocks we bulldoze, the more people we can heal!

Yes, exactly, it is most unfortunate for those people. Stop trying to create a straw man argument. I'm not advocating for the Clinic to bulldoze every block in sight. I'm saying that it is ridiculous to flat out reject the benefits of greenspace on a medical campus when I'm willing to bet you've never even glanced at the literature regarding it. If you have and you don't find it compelling.. fine agree to disagree. But I do find it compelling, which is why I don't reject the concept of a medical campus with green space. And I reject the thought that a healthy urban density and greenspace have to be mutually exclusive if done right. The goal shouldn't be no green space on a medical campus, the goal should be green space done in a way to maximize health benefits to patients with as little disruption to the urban fabric as possible. Listen, I probably worship at the alter of urban density as much as anyone on this board but I do so precisely because I believe cities are supposed to serve people. And I think there's a pretty compelling argument that this is one of the few areas where block after block of nothing but buildings doesn't serve people.

So I'm not going to defend this particular building given its location and the nature of its green space. However, I think you guys are dismissing his general point out of hand and that the Clinic gets a little too much flak for its love of green space. There is a growing body of evidence that the ability to look at green space outside of your hospital window really does aid in patient recovery. Quite a few hospitals around the country are attempting to add green space in urban settings for this very reason. So while I agree 100% that a lot of what the clinic does is horribly designed from an urbanism perspective... I think we should keep in mind that they're probably attempting to balance good urban design against the desire to have a pretty green campus for their patients to look at out the windows. That said, I don't like this building.

This may be what they are attempting, but they've done a miserable job of it over the years. There's a middle ground here: build an attractive campus with greenspace to be looked at and used; and encourage healthy activity by employees and visitors by providing attractive, safe, and shaded pedestrian circulation access and walkable destinations. But the idea the Clinic is promoting health by surrounding itself with a mote of massive, empty lawns and surface parking, demolishing every old building in a quarter mile radius, and inhibiting nearby commercial development with its butt ugly power substations, is, frankly, absurd.

Completely agree that they've done a miserable job of it over the years. My whole point is that there is a middle ground and that it's quite frankly absurd to not acknowledge that there are benefits to having greenspace on a medical campus. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:22:02 AM by Baskervilles »

Offline StapHanger

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #340 on: April 20, 2017, 11:33:02 AM »
^You did make clear you hate this particular Clinic building, so I think we're on the same page.

What's irritating about the Clinic is that it's so outspoken in trying to shape its operations to confront some lifestyle-related sources of poor health, like smoking and bad diets, but so utterly indifferent to others, like poor air quality, physical inactivity, commute stress, UV exposure in poorly shaded sidewalks. Forget all the militant "urbanist" rationale- there's a really straightforward public health rationale for it to design its campus better.

Offline w28th

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #341 on: April 20, 2017, 12:13:40 PM »
Well put Strap.

Online Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #342 on: April 20, 2017, 01:25:08 PM »
What's irritating about the Clinic is that it's so outspoken in trying to ...

That's medicine. Docs and nurses are trained to have complete confidence in their own opinions; unfortunately, this confidence often extends to matters far beyond medicine. 
What will eventually happen that may be more sympathetic to the desired urban environment is that the Clinic will eventually run out of space and be forced to fill in the surface parking lots.
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Offline jws

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #343 on: April 20, 2017, 02:36:07 PM »
Yes, exactly, it is most unfortunate for those people. Stop trying to create a straw man argument. I'm not advocating for the Clinic to bulldoze every block in sight. I'm saying that it is ridiculous to flat out reject the benefits of greenspace on a medical campus when I'm willing to bet you've never even glanced at the literature regarding it. If you have and you don't find it compelling.. fine agree to disagree. But I do find it compelling, which is why I don't reject the concept of a medical campus with green space. And I reject the thought that a healthy urban density and greenspace have to be mutually exclusive if done right. The goal shouldn't be no green space on a medical campus, the goal should be green space done in a way to maximize health benefits to patients with as little disruption to the urban fabric as possible. Listen, I probably worship at the alter of urban density as much as anyone on this board but I do so precisely because I believe cities are supposed to serve people. And I think there's a pretty compelling argument that this is one of the few areas where block after block of nothing but buildings doesn't serve people.

I don't think these two concepts have to be mutually exclusive.

I see no reason that large-scale medical buildings can't mimic some type of a superblock concept and front the street with minimal setbacks, providing a traditional urban streetscape and then having large courtyards/greenspace on the interiors. I would think that type of environment would still be far more private and relaxing.

I wouldn't even fret if this campus were being expanded and developed with a more cohesive site plan and utilized linear parks or central greenspace that anchors multiple buildings. However, I really think this urban campus is being constructed piecemeal with a suburban development mentality with minimal regard for the impact of the "greenspace."
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:36:47 PM by jws »

Offline 327

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #344 on: April 20, 2017, 02:43:33 PM »
No one has said the Clinic should have zero greenspace or zero campus-type features.  But the Clinic doesn't seem to want urbanity anywhere nearby, it would rather have an absolute campus with an ever-increasing buffer zone around it.  That doesn't sound like middle ground to me.

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #345 on: April 20, 2017, 02:56:24 PM »
Getting rid of crime may have been one reason the CC bulldozed all those buildings, but it most likely was not the only reason. How many of those buildings were already boarded up, vandalized, and had no chance of being returned to useful life because of the changing neighborhood at the time.

I think it has more to do with prevailing urban policies at the time which we demolished neighborhoods in order to "save them." More progressive cities have moved on from those policies and rebuild, restore and create more dense, walkable, inclusive and open built environments with lots of ways to publicly access those buildings from the sidewalks.

Believe me I don't want to derail the topic, it's just interesting terminology at play.  I'm sure the progressive approach at that time was to demolish, while the conservative approach would have kept the neighborhood the same; more intact, walkabale, traditional.

Offline Baskervilles

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #346 on: April 20, 2017, 03:16:29 PM »
^You did make clear you hate this particular Clinic building, so I think we're on the same page.

What's irritating about the Clinic is that it's so outspoken in trying to shape its operations to confront some lifestyle-related sources of poor health, like smoking and bad diets, but so utterly indifferent to others, like poor air quality, physical inactivity, commute stress, UV exposure in poorly shaded sidewalks. Forget all the militant "urbanist" rationale- there's a really straightforward public health rationale for it to design its campus better.

Yeah I think we are.


I don't think these two concepts have to be mutually exclusive.

I see no reason that large-scale medical buildings can't mimic some type of a superblock concept and front the street with minimal setbacks, providing a traditional urban streetscape and then having large courtyards/greenspace on the interiors. I would think that type of environment would still be far more private and relaxing.

I wouldn't even fret if this campus were being expanded and developed with a more cohesive site plan and utilized linear parks or central greenspace that anchors multiple buildings. However, I really think this urban campus is being constructed piecemeal with a suburban development mentality with minimal regard for the impact of the "greenspace."

I think that is exactly what they're intending to do though. If you look at the interactive map in their 2012 master plan (http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2012/01/cleveland_clinics_new_master_p.html#) it looks like they're intending to construct a line of glassy buildings (with tons of natural light + views of greenspace) with minimal setbacks between East 105th and East 83rd. A linear park will then run between those buildings from East 105th to East 83rd (broken up with interior passages where it goes through a couple buildings). Nothing in the portion of that master plan dealing with green space strikes me as a problem. While their incorporation of greenspace with respect to this dental clinic is bad, their larger plan incorporates it quite well. If they stick pretty close to that plan going forward I think the bigger problem is how they continue to use parking lots/garages rather than greenspace.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 03:23:35 PM by Baskervilles »

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #347 on: April 20, 2017, 03:46:10 PM »
I was at the clinic today and we'll have some interesting photos to show what I mean about the clinic having turned inward in terms of their land use policies. If Only They were as good at urban planning as they are in treating Strokes (the reason I was down there today) we'd be admiring the dynamic vibrancy of the street scene.

By the way I will post them in the Cleveland Clinic discussion thread so we can get this thread back on topic.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 03:46:37 PM by KJP »
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Online freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #348 on: April 20, 2017, 04:04:17 PM »
^Dude you OK?

Online KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #349 on: April 20, 2017, 04:50:46 PM »
"Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who writes the laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the European banking dynasty.

Online freethink

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #350 on: April 20, 2017, 05:11:27 PM »
Yep take care of mom. Mine lives with me she has Alzheimer's. Has no idea who I am. 
Back on topic folks.

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #351 on: April 20, 2017, 06:42:28 PM »
Sorry to hear.
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Online Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #352 on: May 07, 2017, 09:01:16 AM »
The CCF health education construction cam shows the parking garage at Innova close to structurally complete.  When will the eastern apartment/hotel portion start?
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Online Dougal

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #353 on: May 31, 2017, 12:39:37 PM »
^ Today apparently.  Excavation is underway as of mid-morning.
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Offline sooner

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Re: Cleveland: University Circle (General): Development and News
« Reply #354 on: July 07, 2017, 05:19:32 AM »
Steel work has started at Innova phase 2.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Re: Cleveland: University Circle (General): Development and News
« Reply #355 on: July 07, 2017, 09:07:41 AM »
^Can you tell from the site work whether this Phase 2 work includes the hotel or just the Phase 2 apartments?  The hotel will be on the corner.

By the way, this discuss probably belongs in the Upper Chester thread for continuity.

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Re: Cleveland: University Circle (General): Development and News
« Reply #356 on: July 07, 2017, 11:24:21 AM »
^Can you tell from the site work whether this Phase 2 work includes the hotel or just the Phase 2 apartments?  The hotel will be on the corner.

By the way, this discuss probably belongs in the Upper Chester thread for continuity.

Phase 2 is apartments only. There's actually a different developer who is doing the hotel. They say they will start in September, but my insider says that is doubtful with where they are in the permit/drawing process.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Re: Cleveland: University Circle (General): Development and News
« Reply #357 on: July 07, 2017, 12:04:19 PM »
^thanks

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #358 on: July 19, 2017, 01:20:48 PM »
This is for the Residence Inn hotel in Innova/Upper Chester. If they've started construction, why is abatement up for consideration now?

Agenda for July 21, 2017

Ordinance No. 841-17(Ward 7/Councilmember Dow): Authorizing the Director of Economic Development to enter into an Enterprise Zone Agreement with Chester Ave Hotel LLC, or its designee, to provide for tax abatement for certain real property improvements as an incentive to construct a hotel to be located on the northwest corner of East 101st Street and Chester Avenue in the Cleveland Area Enterprise Zone.

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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Upper Chester
« Reply #359 on: July 19, 2017, 01:30:29 PM »
^KJP, see the posts just before yours.  Apparently the new construction is not the hotel but just phase 2 of the apartments.