Cincinnati: Random Development News & Info

[BigDipper 80]

I don't know if it was mentioned anywhere else but the Fifth Third building changed the logo on the top of the building and I think it looks a lot worse with the white "cap" than it did with the black.

[savadams13]

I don't know if it was mentioned anywhere else but the Fifth Third building changed the logo on the top of the building and I think it looks a lot worse with the white "cap" than it did with the black.

Yeah there was an article in the Business courier awhile back. The white background band will allow 5/3 to do different color light bands in the evenings. During the day its just going to look bad with white background and blue text.

[Chris DoorDashian]

Get a first look at Dixie Terminal's dome renovation

Imagine cleaning your ceiling with cotton balls and Q-Tips. Now imagine cleaning a ceiling that’s 250 feet long and 25 feet wide that way.

That’s what American Financial Group Inc. did to bring out the original color and brighten up the interior dome of its landmark Dixie Terminal building at Fourth and Walnut streets.

More below:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/11/27/exclusive-get-a-first-look-at-dixie-terminals-dome.html

[jwulsin]

SFA Architects renovated an old building on Carr St, located between the flood levy wall and the 6th St viaduct. Building looks pretty sweet:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/SFAarchitects/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1570455053022150

[jjakucyk]

This is getting out there a little ways, but does anyone know anything about the old office campus in South Lebanon on Mason Morrow Millgrove Road?  You can see the office tower from the Little Miami Trail and some of the surrounding roads, but it's actually a huge complex, and I guess it's abandoned and being redeveloped.  I can't find any information about what it used to be or what's going on with it. 

[Ram23]

^ I know it was originally built for Milacron in the late '60s - I came across some old photos of it online awhile ago:

https://microship.com/cincinnati-milacron-george-your-first-computer/



Growing up I always thought that I-71/SR-48 interchange seemed way oversized, I think they must have assumed more growth would occur there, but in reality it took until the last 5-10 years or so for the sprawl to reach that point. This building and the Fujitech building to the north sat out there relatively isolated for decades.

It looks like the developers that did the Rivers Crossing shopping center on 48 now own the old Milacron site.

[taestell]

This is getting out there a little ways, but does anyone know anything about the old office campus in South Lebanon on Mason Morrow Millgrove Road?  You can see the office tower from the Little Miami Trail and some of the surrounding roads, but it's actually a huge complex, and I guess it's abandoned and being redeveloped.  I can't find any information about what it used to be or what's going on with it. 

I think you are talking about this complex. Street View from 2015 shows a Vickers sign out front.

[Chris DoorDashian]

Neyer Properties plans $28 million redevelopment of Shillito’s building



The city of Cincinnati has selected Neyer Properties to move forward with plans for a redevelopment of the western half of the former Shillito’s department store.

More below:
https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/12/06/exclusive-neyer-properties-plans-28-million.html

[ink]

^At first I thought the rendering was showing changes to the part of the building pictured above; thankfully it is the warehouse/storeroom portion of the building that is being rehabbed by Neyer.

[thebillshark]

The article calls says about 6 floors of the building will be turned into a 450 car garage topped off with office space.

It mentions a call center as one of the possible uses, because of the ability to provide parking. I wonder if there are any technical advantages to having a call center right across from the Bell building?

I wonder if they could leverage this new garage to replace any of the aging garages in the area. The one south of the Bell building and the Federated garage to the north of the Bell building are particularly unsightly. They probably won’t though

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

I haven't read the article, but are any of the parking floors underground?  That side of the building has 2-3 levels of sub-basement.  I went in there a couple of times, it is pretty cool.

[IAGuy39]

All in all, good news for downtown to get something to better use.

They are revamping the west side of the building.  What is the east side used for?  Seems pretty empty on the street front but maybe I'm wrong, I haven't crossed it except driving and didn't pay much attention.

[jwulsin]

I haven't read the article, but are any of the parking floors underground?  That side of the building has 2-3 levels of sub-basement.  I went in there a couple of times, it is pretty cool.

Not totally sure, but maybe you can figure it out based on this:
"the potential project would turn nearly 400,000 square feet of space into a 450-space parking garage topped with 100,000 square feet of office space and street-level retail spaces.
...
The idea would be to use the top four floors of the building as office space.
...
In addition, the lower levels of the building would be converted to additional parking space, as the buildings already have about 250 indoor parking spaces. About six floors of the building would become parking under this plan, but Chamot said there is flexibility based on the needs of a potential end user."

[SleepyLeroy]

All in all, good news for downtown to get something to better use.

They are revamping the west side of the building.  What is the east side used for?  Seems pretty empty on the street front but maybe I'm wrong, I haven't crossed it except driving and didn't pay much attention.

The entire east side is residential around the opened up atrium with offices on the first floor. I believe the marketing agency LANDOR is there still. http://www.loftsatshillito.com/

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

The atrium is one of the coolest spaces downtown that few people get to see.  It was covered up for years when the floors were filled in and the actual dome was covered in wood/drywall.  I have an old picture of it before the renovation I will have to dig up.

[SleepyLeroy]

From the backside of the SHillitos building it is easier to see the division of the older east side and the newer and currently unused west side. The back didnt get the deco reskin and kept its HUGE original sash windows. The Skylight is the top glass over the huge atrium.

[thebillshark]

(See link re: Power Buildkng below) Isn’t one of the ways we get affordable market-rate housing is to have existing buildings age as new buildings come online and command higher rents? Don’t we wish we had more of this kind of building stock downtown and in OTR? Then how is this kind of intervention into the regular market justifiable?

http://cin.ci/2Bm9q3q

[jwulsin]

(See link re: Power Buildkng below) Isn’t one of the ways we get affordable market-rate housing is to have existing buildings age as new buildings come online and command higher rents? Don’t we wish we had more of this kind of building stock downtown and in OTR? Then how is this kind of intervention into the regular market justifiable?

http://cin.ci/2Bm9q3q

I'm not sure exactly what kind of tax breaks they got... but in principle, I agree that it doesn't make sense to offer subsidies to upgrade finishes in an occupied building.

That being said, since the total property tax revenue for the city is capped, these "abatements" are simply a mechanism for shifting the burden between tax payers. And since that cap hasn't been raised since 1999, everybody already probably pays too little in city property taxes.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2014/10/10/is-cincinnati-s-property-tax-rollback-squeezing.html

Until 1999, Cincinnati taxed property just like Cleveland, Columbus, Silverton, Mariemont and other cities. That year, in response to election-year pressure from anti-tax crusaders, City Council decided it would no longer set a property tax rate and collect. Instead, council decided it would collect $29 million for operations, period, and apply whatever rate was needed to get to that number.

The result has been a steep decline in property tax revenue available to operate the city when adjusted for inflation– a drop that continued through two national recessions and more than a decade of city budget deficits.
...
Meanwhile, the city continues to hand out property tax abatements to commercial and residential property owners as they invest hundreds of millions in the city.
...
Some of those abatements end in 2014, while others last into the 2030s. Because of the rollback, three things happen when they end:
-The property owner has to pay his or her full share of the city's property tax.
-Everyone else pays a little less in property taxes.
-The city does not directly realize a benefit from the investment made as long as it caps the amount of property taxes it collects at $29 million.

[thebillshark]

^i wonder if “the cap” negativity affects the city's motivation to develop surface parking lots downtown?

[jwulsin]

^i wonder if “the cap” negativity affects the city's motivation to develop surface parking lots downtown?

Typically, you'd expect a city to want to encourage property values to rise (population growth, economic growth, etc), but if property tax revenue is capped then that incentive is essentially removed.

[IAGuy39]

^Yeah, it seems technically the only motivation for surface lot reno's would be to attract people in the city who weren't before and ultimately make it more livable and attract more jobs, etc.

They could have that motivation and more and the abatements would end up being worth even more to the developer if the property taxes weren't fixed.  Economically speaking and if a professor of Urban Economics commented on the policy I am guessing they would say that it is completely stupid and hampers a ton of stuff.

On the flip side, people would probably complain more about the abatements than they already do.  The people complaining about them currently for the most part have no idea what they are talking about since it doesn't change the actual rate the site is being taxed anyways, just the new value.  But try to tell that to red sweater guy and his brain would explode.

[jmecklenborg]

It's amazing how every city seems to have a dozen of these half-troll half-dolt characters who used to confine themselves to the public comment sections of school board and council meetings but now infest and ruin all online conversations.  The paradox is that all of the answers are available online but these characters double-down, even when repeatedly directed to the facts. 

[thebillshark]

You could go further down the rabbit hole and make properties receiving abatements “cap-exempt” where they pay a fixed rate after their abatement is up, that would presumably generate more revenue than the lower “capped” rate. But I don’t know if more complexity is really what we need in this system.

[IAGuy39]

^Yeah I agree.  The thing though that is pretty good for the city is that the exemption doesn't cut out CPS and now it is generating money for the Streetcar.  My question on the latter is do they get taxed at the new value after renovation?  I think they do.

[jjakucyk]

Even without the cap standard property taxes still discourage development and encourage abandonment and demolition.  This is because the land value is relatively low and is assessed at an equal rate to the improved value.  So no buildings=low value=low taxes.  Once you start building or renovating or improving anything the assessment increases and so do the taxes.  The land value is also divorced from the amount of infrastructure that's in place to support it, and thus the cost to the city to service that land.  That's what makes downtown surface parking lots so bad.  Not only is it the opportunity cost of not having a sizable building there, but there's streets and sidewalks and pipes and conduits and police/fire service, etc. that's sized for a large building and is going to waste. 

[jwulsin]

It's amazing how every city seems to have a dozen of these half-troll half-dolt characters who used to confine themselves to the public comment sections of school board and council meetings but now infest and ruin all online conversations.  The paradox is that all of the answers are available online but these characters double-down, even when repeatedly directed to the facts. 

It's especially egregious/sad/hilarious/depressing when the misunderstanding comes from the person responsible for actually collecting tax revenue:
https://twitter.com/AuditorRhodes/status/941387872539742208

[taestell]

^Yeah I agree.  The thing though that is pretty good for the city is that the exemption doesn't cut out CPS and now it is generating money for the Streetcar.  My question on the latter is do they get taxed at the new value after renovation?  I think they do.

During your abatement period, the city and county portion of your tax bill will be based on the pre-renovation value of your property, which means that CPS still collects the full amount they are owed based on the post-renovation value. Then, with the recently added VTICA policy, you must pay a small percentage of the abatement you receive into community organizations/programs. For Downtown/OTR residents, that's the streetcar operating fund. For Walnut Hills, it's WHRC. I'm not sure I've seen examples in other neighborhoods but most likely a similar deal would happen. After your abatement expires, you go back to paying the full tax bill based on the post-renovation value which means your VTICA contribution ends.

[taestell]

It's amazing how every city seems to have a dozen of these half-troll half-dolt characters who used to confine themselves to the public comment sections of school board and council meetings but now infest and ruin all online conversations.  The paradox is that all of the answers are available online but these characters double-down, even when repeatedly directed to the facts. 

It's especially egregious/sad/hilarious/depressing when the misunderstanding comes from the person responsible for actually collecting tax revenue:
https://twitter.com/AuditorRhodes/status/941387872539742208

People get so worked up about tax abatements because they see all of these new renovations in hot neighborhoods getting tax abated and they somehow think their neighborhood is getting screwed. What they don't seem to understand is that tax abatements can happen in any neighborhood. So if I renovated a historic building in Westwood or Kennedy Heights, I could get a tax abatement too.

Additionally, I think people misunderstand the term "tax abatement" and think it means that you don't pay property tax. But you do still pay tax on the pre-renovation value of your property.

What people like Dusty should really get worked up about is the way that the giant corporations in town get their tax bills reduced by appearing in front of the Board of Revisions and saying their property is worth less than what the auditor thinks it is. The result is that corporations keep paying a smaller and smaller share of the county's overall property tax bill while residents keep paying a bigger and bigger share.

[JYP]

It's amazing how every city seems to have a dozen of these half-troll half-dolt characters who used to confine themselves to the public comment sections of school board and council meetings but now infest and ruin all online conversations.  The paradox is that all of the answers are available online but these characters double-down, even when repeatedly directed to the facts. 

It's especially egregious/sad/hilarious/depressing when the misunderstanding comes from the person responsible for actually collecting tax revenue:
https://twitter.com/AuditorRhodes/status/941387872539742208

People get so worked up about tax abatements because they see all of these new renovations in hot neighborhoods getting tax abated and they somehow think their neighborhood is getting screwed. What they don't seem to understand is that tax abatements can happen in any neighborhood. So if I renovated a historic building in Westwood or Kennedy Heights, I could get a tax abatement too.

Additionally, I think people misunderstand the term "tax abatement" and think it means that you don't pay property tax. But you do still pay tax on the pre-renovation value of your property.

What people like Dusty should really get worked up about is the way that the giant corporations in town get their tax bills reduced by appearing in front of the Board of Revisions and saying their property is worth less than what the auditor thinks it is. The result is that corporations keep paying a smaller and smaller share of the county's overall property tax bill while residents keep paying a bigger and bigger share.

Corporations challenging high tax valuation is a right. Property tax abatements for urban development are the fleecing of America!

[jmecklenborg]

see all of these new renovations in hot neighborhoods getting tax abated and they somehow think their neighborhood is getting screwed. What they don't seem to understand is that tax abatements can happen in any neighborhood.

If these people really cared about property tax so much they would buy a small house in an uncool part of town.  Many homes inside the Cincinnati city limits pay $1500~ year total.  That's mostly CPS -- their city portion is only $200-300. 

If you buy a 2500-3500 sq foot house in Hyde Park you have no right to get upset about paying $16,000/yr in property tax.  Nobody forced you to buy that house and enter into that tax situation.