Author Topic: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)  (Read 12250 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr Sparkle

  • 629'-Rhodes State Tower
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« on: November 15, 2011, 12:54:59 PM »
I searched for a thread an was surprised there was none for this project:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/pages/-44601-/
Quote
In 2006, the Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments (OKI), in cooperation with the Ohio Department of Transportation (ODOT), the City of Cincinnati, the Uptown Consortium, SORTA, and numerous community organizations, completed the Uptown Study, a comprehensive look at transportation needs throughout Uptown.

As part of an overall transportation strategy, this study included a recommendation for consideration of improved access to and from I-71 in the vicinity of Martin Luther King Drive, Taft Road, and McMillan Street. The goals of this study are to reduce travel times, simplify wayfinding to and from I-71, and promote economic vitality within the Uptown area and surrounding neighborhoods. Please visit the project website at to learn more: UptownAccessStudy.com.

Meeting Materials here:
http://uptownaccessstudy.com/meetings.html

3 alternates on the table:
http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKB.pdf
http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKBex.pdf
http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKBexLOOP.pdf

Alternates Discarded:
http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_ConsideredDismissed.pdf
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:55:20 PM by Mr Sparkle »

Offline Living in Gin

  • The architect of good taste
  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 2066
    • Living in Gin
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 01:06:58 PM »
Is it just me, or do all the proposals shown eliminate the possibility of the CL&N right-of-way being used for light rail?
It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.

Offline taestell

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2069
    • UrbanCincy
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 02:01:34 PM »
Wow.

http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKB.pdf
- Closes the existing Taft ramp. Could be great for Clifton Heights but I'm not sure if this one will fly.

http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKBex.pdf
- Am I looking at this one correctly, there is no connection from SB I-71 to MLK (Taft would still be used)? Seems like a waste if that's not included.

http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKBexLOOP.pdf
- Seriously? This loop is terrible.

Offline Loretto

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 02:05:53 PM »
MLKB seems the obvious choice.  Although, flaring the MLK exit out over Van Buren Ave like it does seems kinda silly when you look at it compared to the alternatives presented that don't do that.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:06:15 PM by Loretto »

Offline Ram23

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 2046
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 12:19:49 PM »
Is it just me, or do all the proposals shown eliminate the possibility of the CL&N right-of-way being used for light rail?

It looks like they didn't even consider it, but I don't know if it entirely eliminates it as a possibility.  I was under the impression the bigger problem with the CL&N was that the existing tunnels arenít wide enough to allow for two trains to pass through at the same time (on a related note, the smaller tunnel under McMillan has been caving in for the past 3 years but looks to be being shored up now).  Itís odd they didnít consider rail with any of these studies, as a lot of the interchange studies Iíve seen for I-75 have rail included, even if the layer is eventually turned off when the drawings are made fully public.

Offline Ram23

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 2046
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 12:23:12 PM »
MLKB seems the obvious choice.  Although, flaring the MLK exit out over Van Buren Ave like it does seems kinda silly when you look at it compared to the alternatives presented that don't do that.

Civil engineers these days are absolutely dedicated to making every intersection occur at a 90 degree angle whenever possible, even if it means knocking down a dozen buildings.  Roads are designed to protect bad drivers at the expense of the tax payer, when the easiest, cheapest, and safest way to protect bad drivers would be to make license exams harder and get them off the road.

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 04:09:13 PM »
The loop one would be awful especially since it would preclude the use of the ramp by both directions if McMillan is ever returned to two-way traffic.  What gets me are the right turn slip roads like at eastbound MLK to southbound I-71.  Those are bad for pedestrians and worse for cyclists, yet they keep designing them.  There's no consistency with them either.  In the redesigned I-75 Mitchell Avenue interchange, only one of the four ramps has that slip road for instance.  It's the same with these MLK proposals. 

It also looks like they're planning for a shared ped/bike side path on the south side of MLK.  Of course they don't deal at all with how such a thing would connect with the existing bike lanes east of Gilbert or how it works west of Reading.  The whole thing is really vastly over-engineered.  Look at how wide the existing bridge over I-71 is and note that they're planning to add a good 30' more to it.  They're actually planning to make MLK 10 lanes wide near Reading.  I don't deny that the plan improves access, but damn does it really need to be bloated so much, especially if they go with the MLKBex plan that keeps the ramps to Taft and McMillan? 

Offline Mr Sparkle

  • 629'-Rhodes State Tower
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 05:07:39 PM »
Wonder if they analyzed the traffic if the Victory Parkway interchange was completed, as the original construction was designed for. Would that pull enough Avondale and Walnut Hills traffic to allow the Taft interchange to work better? The interchange would make a nice back way to University Hospital, the VA and Children's via Rockdale and Forest. All the walls and R/W is in place at that never-constructed interchange.

Offline OCtoCincy

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1436
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 05:59:13 PM »
MLKB+EX is the best in my opinion.

Why close off the ramps at Taft & McMillan? There is minimal work needed to keep them there/fix them up, and all that would do is overcrowd Madison.  With all the added traffic at Madison that would be caused by adding new ramps & closing the other ramps (all traffic from Clifton Heights, Walnut Hills etc would have to drive up to Uptown rather than having it semi-split by keeping both options) I can't imagine how the bike lanes would stay in the plan when the road becomes packed. 

The loop is by far the worst, and MLKB is good, but why close off those options, just forcing more cars onto reading and up to madison when you could keep both options available for negligible cost increases.

Offline OCtoCincy

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1436
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 06:11:21 PM »
Wow.

http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKBex.pdf
- Am I looking at this one correctly, there is no connection from SB I-71 to MLK (Taft would still be used)? Seems like a waste if that's not included.


It's hard to look at- there IS a southbound MLK exit- Basically, you would "exit" for both Taft & MLK about a half mile before you hit MLK, Taft traffic goes under the bridge, while MLK traffic exits to the bridge.  Not the clearest drawing, but it's there.

Offline taestell

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2069
    • UrbanCincy
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2011, 10:22:34 PM »
Wow.

http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKBex.pdf
- Am I looking at this one correctly, there is no connection from SB I-71 to MLK (Taft would still be used)? Seems like a waste if that's not included.


It's hard to look at- there IS a southbound MLK exit- Basically, you would "exit" for both Taft & MLK about a half mile before you hit MLK, Taft traffic goes under the bridge, while MLK traffic exits to the bridge.  Not the clearest drawing, but it's there.

Thanks. I see it now.

Offline Civvik

  • 1450'-Willis Tower
  • *********
  • Posts: 1767
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 12:05:09 AM »
Can any of our resident historians here explain to me why an MLK interchange was never in the original I-71? Dana to Taft is one of the longest urban stretches of interstate I can think of with no exits.
"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert." -Arthur C. Clarke

Offline jmecklenborg

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 6344
    • http://www.cincinnati-transit.net
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 01:39:33 AM »
Because MLK didn't exist when I-71 was built.  An interchange was planned at Victory Pkwy but was blocked by neighborhood opposition. 

http://www.urbancincy.com/2011/03/major-projects-will-transform-mlk-drive-through-uptown-over-next-20-years/

Offline Ram23

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 2046
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 08:45:30 AM »
Wow.

http://uptownaccessstudy.com/Images/PDFs/Open_House2%20materials/UptownOH2_MLKBex.pdf
- Am I looking at this one correctly, there is no connection from SB I-71 to MLK (Taft would still be used)? Seems like a waste if that's not included.


It's hard to look at- there IS a southbound MLK exit- Basically, you would "exit" for both Taft & MLK about a half mile before you hit MLK, Taft traffic goes under the bridge, while MLK traffic exits to the bridge.  Not the clearest drawing, but it's there.

Federal Highway Specifications require 2000 feet between the end of an onramp and the beginning of an exit ramp, so there isn't enough room to fit a ramp from MLK to I-71 Southbound and a ramp from I-71 Southbound to Taft.  That's why they instead show the collector ramp, which would have a lower speed and allow a shorter distance between the on ramp and exit ramp.

Offline Mr Sparkle

  • 629'-Rhodes State Tower
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 08:57:28 AM »
MLK viaduct/overpass was built at the same time as I-71

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 11:56:20 AM »
MLK is just as close to Victory Parkway as it is to Taft/McMillan, so ramp proximity would've been a problem.  My guess is that they figured Taft/McMillan and Victory would be the main access to Uptown and Avondale from I-71, while MLK would be the primary route for local east-west traffic.  Plus, it's not that hard to get from a Victory Parkway interchange to MLK via Gilbert.  Note that both Victory (between Rockdale and Gilbert) AND Gilbert (between Victory and MLK) were significantly widened and straightened out in the 1970s in preparation for that interchange. 

Offline jmecklenborg

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 6344
    • http://www.cincinnati-transit.net
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 12:37:06 PM »
No, the MLK overpass wasn't there originally.  That stretch of I-71 opened in 1966 and the overpass was built in 1970.  The CL&N only used the tracks until 1968.

The Victory Parkway work was done as part of the I-71 construction.  You can see provisions for the S71 exit ramp when you get on S71 from Montgomery (the way the ramp swoops wide to the right).

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 01:11:22 PM »
It was done at the same time Jake, the 1966 construction ended between Florence and McGregor in Walnut Hills.  The part of I-71 near MLK was all under construction at once in 1970.  See here.  The new MLK is in ODOT's original drawings (called Relocated Melish Ave.).  ODOT's work only extended between Reading and Gilbert though, as far as MLK was concerned.  Here's a drawing that shows the MLK overpass, the Victory Parkway interchange, and the work on Victory and Gilbert (also note the Deer Creek RR Tunnel near Blair).  ODOT's bridge inventory dates everything on I-71 between Kennedy and McGregor Avenues to 1972 (except the N&W bridge near Dana which is 1973 for some reason).  That's certainly not gospel, since it's pretty clear from the historic aerial that the McGregor overpass was already built in 1968.  Nevertheless, MLK is in there at 1972 with everything else, and you can see in the 1970 aerial that it was clearly under construction with the rest of the highway. 

Offline OCtoCincy

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1436
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 05:36:11 PM »
^ The Bridge for "MLK" was built, yes--  But the East-West mega-blvd that today we call MLK/Madison did NOT exist.  You can even see in the drawings, that the bridge went to two smaller streets- it was not connected all the way across uptown and to the east side like it is today-- It was not a major thoroughfare like it is today until several years later.  At the time Victory Parkway was a MUCH bigger street and taft and mcmillan crossed most of uptown towards the east side.  Melish was a small road and would not become MLK/Madison for several years.

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 06:24:46 PM »
Do you mean that Victory Parkway was a much more important street?  I can certainly understand that, but nowhere is Victory any narrower than it was when it was built.  The intersection with Madison was completely redone when MLK was brought through in the 1970s, it used to be a large T intersection.  Also, the only newer part of Madison Road is the one block between Victory and Woodburn, which I presume was constructed along with the rest of Victory Parkway.  It didn't exist in 1912, but the rest of Madison sure did.  Madison is actually an old turnpike (Madisonville Pike), so it predates most of the rest of the roads in the area.  Its current width from Woodburn east to the B&O tracks in Oakley was set in about 1918. 

The following map overlays the modern Victory Parkway and MLK with the 1912 street grid. 



Projects like MLK, Dana Avenue, Linn Street, and one-waying Taft and McMillan were mostly mid 1970s projects.  The Jefferson/Short Vine project was done in the mid 60s as well as the short stretch of MLK between Clifton and Vine.  Those two roads were done in part to try to contain UC's campus from expanding further north into Burnett Woods or further east into Corryville.  St. Clair Street and Melish Avenue weren't widened out to their present size until later in the 1970s, but they were still about 40' wide, so that allowed two lanes of traffic in each direction between Vine and Reading.  The stretch of MLK between Clifton and Dixmyth wasn't built until probably the mid 70s either. 

Offline OCtoCincy

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1436
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 06:36:36 PM »
^ Correct, by bigger, I meant bigger deal, not larger.  The Urban Cincy article someone posted earlier explains an accurate timeline.  I-71 opened between 1966. "MLK" between clifton and jefferson had only just been built a few years prior, and connections across to Madison were brand new/not seamless at the opening of I-71.   This is why there were no plans to do an interchange at MLK, but instead, were plans to do the interchange at Vicotry Parkway.  When Jake said "MLK didn't exist", he correct in several ways.  First off, what we call MLK was a mix of several different streets following a similar, yet unconnected path-  it was NOT a seamless blvd, etc. 

Offline Eighth and State

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Mill Creek Yacht Club
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2011, 06:45:21 PM »
    I've been on MLK 100 times in my life, but just this week was the first time I have ever driven it from end to end, Madison to Hopple. MLK of course was not an original through route like Montgomery or Reading Roads that originated in the pre-automobile era, but a throughway that was deliberately cut through a built-up area, taking advantage of certain streets such as Melish along the way. The reverse curves and awkward intersections attest to this. Some trivia is that there was an attempt to rename Hopple Street along with the rest of the throughway to improve wayfinding but the Hopple family protested.

If you include the Westwood Northern Boulevard and all of Madison Road along with Hopple and MLK, you indeed have a long, continuous throughway from one side of town to another. Strangely enough, this was NOT included in the 1948 motorways plan, because that plan showed a gap between I-71 and Madison.

   

   

Offline Eighth and State

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Mill Creek Yacht Club
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2011, 09:52:20 PM »
Here's a concept for urban grade separation of some of the major intersections on MLK such as Clifton, Burnet, Vine, etc., making the other streets right-in, right-out only, and accomodating left turning movements by driving around the block:



It sort of resembles a cloverleaf interchange, except the the leaves of the clover are city blocks. It improves traffic flow on MLK as well as on the crossing north-south streets. Some of the connecting streets already terminate at MLK like this.

Offline Blue Line

  • Doors Closing
  • 665'-Queen City Square
  • ******
  • Posts: 789
  • Helvetican City
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2011, 07:37:09 AM »
Do you mean that Victory Parkway was a much more important street?  I can certainly understand that, but nowhere is Victory any narrower than it was when it was built.  The intersection with Madison was completely redone when MLK was brought through in the 1970s, it used to be a large T intersection.  Also, the only newer part of Madison Road is the one block between Victory and Woodburn, which I presume was constructed along with the rest of Victory Parkway.  It didn't exist in 1912, but the rest of Madison sure did.  Madison is actually an old turnpike (Madisonville Pike), so it predates most of the rest of the roads in the area.  Its current width from Woodburn east to the B&O tracks in Oakley was set in about 1918. 

The following map overlays the modern Victory Parkway and MLK with the 1912 street grid. 



Projects like MLK, Dana Avenue, Linn Street, and one-waying Taft and McMillan were mostly mid 1970s projects.  The Jefferson/Short Vine project was done in the mid 60s as well as the short stretch of MLK between Clifton and Vine.  Those two roads were done in part to try to contain UC's campus from expanding further north into Burnett Woods or further east into Corryville.  St. Clair Street and Melish Avenue weren't widened out to their present size until later in the 1970s, but they were still about 40' wide, so that allowed two lanes of traffic in each direction between Vine and Reading.  The stretch of MLK between Clifton and Dixmyth wasn't built until probably the mid 70s either. 

Think you could provide us with a 1912/present overlay for the area that includes Melish as well?
"When God created human beings, I bet he didn't think of bombs and things.  I bet he wonders why." -N*E*R*D
---
Committed to a cleaner, safer, and community-oriented city
Spring in Our Steps | CUF Neighborhood Association | Citizens for Civic Renewal

Offline Sherman Cahal

  • Premium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
    • UrbanUp
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2011, 12:59:02 PM »
According to the ODOT Statewide Bridge Database, the MLK Bridge (#3114422) dates to 1972.

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 12:04:42 AM »
Here's the 1912 overlay with the recent (well, 1990s anyway) CAGIS map showing MLK's entire length from I-75 to Woodburn Avenue.  Click on the preview for the large image.  Note that it's an enormour 9MB JPEG.  The maps mostly line up, but there's a few places it gets a little bit off.  Kinsey Avenue is completely screwed up, and several of the streets in Fairview are a bit off, but it's mostly good.

You can see how Hopple was connected to Dixmyth (1960s) then later to Clifton at Riddle (1970s).  MLK then went through Burnett Woods on a new alignment to a widened St. Clair at Woodside to the fiasco Vine/Jefferson/MLK intersection (1960s).  At that time, Jefferson still continued north of MLK at what is today the main entrance to the EPA.  The diagonal block between MLK and Glendora was removed at that time, and between Glendora and Vine it was a streetcar-only right-of-way before, so it was already closed.  East of there, St. Clair was realigned to intersect Melish at Eden (1970s).  Melish was then widened to the north and crooked intersections were smoothed out (1970s).  East of I-71 it then cut diagonally across the grid of Walnut Hills to the reconfigured intersection with Victory Parkway (1970s). 

Note also how much Victory Parkway (which in 1912 was a fairly narrow road built only between Gilbert and Rockdale) was reconfigured around I-71 along with Gilbert. 

Kind of unrelated, but you can also see how Taft was pieced together from a bunch of smaller streets, alleys, and new cut-throughs.  That was done sometime between 1932 and 1954, and my guess would be the early 50s after the Taft Expressway plans flopped.  Taft and McMillan weren't made one-way until about the time I-71 opened however. 

There's other random interesting stuff too, like how Lincoln was routed through to University, and that McMillan didn't go down the hill west of Fairview and Ravine.  That particular project was done in 1923 by the Cincinnati Street Railway as a replacement route for the Fairview Incline which had been closed in 1921 for safety issues.  I'm not sure if McMillan was extended below McMicken to Central Parkway as part of the Parkway project, or a little later as part of the Western Hills Viaduct project. 

Anyway, here you go. 


Offline jmecklenborg

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 6344
    • http://www.cincinnati-transit.net
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 12:29:54 AM »
>as part of the Parkway project, or a little later as part of the Western Hills Viaduct project. 

I'm fairly sure that it was built as part of the parkway project, along with the nutty Dixmyth ramp that is still there but whose days are sort-of numbered.  In both cases, the roads were configured with a bias toward downtown travel, NOT cross-town.  Accounts of the opening of the Western Hills Viaduct are interesting, since it apparently totally inundated Central Parkway with traffic of the likes unseen previously.  It's really a great example of highway infrastructure creating traffic in a way that was repeated on a much larger scale with the interstate highways, then their various widenings.  The intersection with Central Parkway/McMillan was the sticking point, but grade separation like a diamond interchange would have caused even more traffic.  Incidentally, the traffic pattern at Brighton confounded the era's traffic engineers, and became the site of the city's first 3-phase traffic control sequence.

It's very interesting to see Victory Parkway labeled as Bloody Run Parkway.  I had always thought that was a working title, not an official title.  If my memory is correct, that project started in 1912 so it's possible that this map published the working title. 

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 08:55:03 AM »
And it isn't even Bloody Run to begin with, it's Ross Run.  Bloody Run is the next Mill Creek tributary to the north.  Someone really goofed there.  I thought it was just a working title too (at least the name of the park right-of-way if not the road itself), but apparently it wasn't changed to Victory Parkway until 1921.  It appears construction started in 1911, but it was mainly just grading and a gravel roadbed until 1915.  This was just up near Gilbert though.  I want to say the road south of MLK wasn't done until the 1920s based on the curb stones used.  Maybe they changed the name upon completion of the project, though 1921 still sounds a little early to me. 

Cincinnati Parks and Parkways section on Victory Parkway
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 09:10:53 AM by jjakucyk »

Offline jmecklenborg

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 6344
    • http://www.cincinnati-transit.net
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 09:06:43 AM »
The whole thing wasn't dedicated until 1929 or 1930, even though its various sections had been in use for nearly 20 years by that point. 

Offline Eighth and State

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Mill Creek Yacht Club
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 04:47:28 PM »

After seeing enough road projects, it's easier to pick out things that have changed over the years. For example, houses that don't have a proper relationship with the street may have been there first. If the front door faces a different street or some other direction other than the side it where it should be, that's a hint that something has changed. If every building has a retaining wall of the same material, that's a hint that the wall was built as part of the road project, as the road was widened or cut, not by individual property owners.

McMillan street, along with it's extensions, is a good example of this. As old as it may be (1920's,) there are houses along the road that are even older. Before McMillan street near Central Parkway was built, McMicken was the dominant street in that area, and one can see how the new road was built to cut through the streetwall on the older street.

Another good example is Liberty Street, where the entire streetwall was demolished on the south side, leaving views into the sides of buildings.

In Paris, it seems that when the grand boulevards were cut through the medieval fabric that was there before, the designers not only built the street but also rebuilt the buildings on either side, creating a NEW streetwall. I can't think of a project in America that did the same. On 12th street in Covington they at least addressed it, but I haven't been there recently to see how it turned out.

In my humble opinion the lack of attention to the remaining properties on either side of a new street or a widened one has been a major oversight of road projects in America. Not only did the original property owners get displaced, but the adjoining property owners were left with spaces that were unusable, belonging to no one and abused by everyone.

Offline Eighth and State

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Mill Creek Yacht Club
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 04:51:03 PM »
^I should add that part of the problem may be the way that road projects are funded. If the State or Feds grants funding for a new road, but not for new buildings, then the designer has no choice but to demo the buildings that are in the way without any provision for replacing them.

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 04:56:28 PM »
Those other countries that do this better than in the US also don't have such a blatant anti-density agenda.  All these streets cut through neighborhoods here were intended in some ways to "clear out the cruft," and building a new intact urban fabric would be counter to the parkllike suburban ideal. 

Offline Eighth and State

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Mill Creek Yacht Club
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 05:30:31 PM »
^Not necessarily. Granted, there are certain projects where widening of a road was used as an excuse for a demolition, but highways designers are not necessarily anti-density.

After a century or more of pre-automobile development, the automobile came on the scene, along with the desire for highways. In 1950, they didn't demo a highway for urban development because there were no highways to demolish. We are starting to see a few highway demo projects around the country, and we have examples in Cincinnati of railroad demolition for development (Glenway Crossings).

Offline GCrites80s

  • 2717'-Burj Khalifa
  • **********
  • Posts: 4156
  • Running Free
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 07:16:38 PM »
Well, that map took up a large portion of my time today.

I've also heard Victory Parkway referred to as "Bloody Pike". Was it ever tolled? Sounds unlikely.

Offline jjakucyk

  • 947'-Key Tower
  • ********
  • Posts: 1491
    • Cincinnati Traction History
Re: Cincinnati: New I-71 Interchange at MLK (Uptown Access Project)
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2011, 07:42:50 PM »
One or two Xavier archives refer to it as Bloody Run Boulevard too.  I see no reason that it would've ever been tolled. 

Here's a great photo of Victory at Rockdale.  Love the street lights!


Remove Ads