Topic: Cleveland: Global Center for Health Innovation and Convention Center

[willyboy]

From Steven Litt's Blog.  Article with pic's here:  http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/03/_now_finally_its_time.html

Medical Mart and Convention Center site selection process should involve the public
Posted by Steven Litt/Plain Dealer Architecture Critic
March 14, 2008 13:42PM


Now, finally, it's time to pick a site.

The announcement Thursday that Cuyahoga County had reached agreement with a private developer on a new Medical Mart and convention center raises the huge question of where to put the facilities.

One thing is clear now: There are no plans for public involvement early in the process, even though choosing a site is one of the biggest city planning issues facing the city...

[clvlndr]

re MayDay's comments:  - I don't see the Mall as more "central" than Tower City, but less, esp in terms of Public Square, the traffic and transit hub.  Also, (as w/ Steve Litt, too)

Looks?  While I don’t want some hideous structure built, I'm less worried how the new Tower City location "looks" because the proposed location is TC's backside which, now, is quite ugly -- exposed girders and the like.  Conv Centers, by nature, aren’t built for beauty and, most often, cities stick them to the side of prime RE (mixed use) people areas since, when not in use, cc’s are essentially huge boxes.  TC faces both Public Square (and Prospect) and faces away from Huron Rd and the River.  The beautiful Terminal Tower/Higbees/Renaissance Hotel entrance is what most people, entering the complex will still see.  (someone above noted the ‘problem’ of a non/less visible CC at Tower City – but remember, the current CC is underground/out of sight and, unless you’re a local, you don’t know what Public Hall is or that it’s tied to the complex).

Limited Size of Tower City site?  I don’t see that as a problem.  The footprint is large enough, esp, as noted, if you expand into existing structures; wonder if MK Ferguson (the huge old P.O. location) and the State Offices could be relocated and their buildings retrofitted for extra conv space?

Spinoff?  Tower City has MUCH greater potential.  MM at Tower City can (finally) grow to link, into 1 neighborhood, E. 4th Gateway, Tower City and the Warehouse Dist.  As someone noted, earlier, the excitement/synergy of the Tower City site could (finally) jump start Pesht.   ... whereas the Mall site (even accounting for taking down the current county buildings and expanding in that direction) doesn't really link to any neighborhood except North Coast and, maybe, Erieview/Galleria/Ave District.  The Mall location is effectively blocked from the Warehouse Dist by the huge Justice Center complex and, more than likely, would be yet another downtown "island". 

Transit?  While Steve Litt, in his article and blog re TC (it's pretty obvious he, like most UOers prefers he Mall) mentions the Rapid hub, but doesn't stress, in particular, the direct Airport Rapid connection with a direct, 1-seat 25 min, indoor ride to the new convention complex.  A huge advantage for conventioneers?  ah,... is last weekend's blizzard just a fuzzy memory?   And ECP starts/terminates right at TC for a direct feed into the Clinic or UH, the latter being accessible via the current Red Line to U.Circle.

MayDay did note TC's existing (better) connectivity.  The direct indoor connection to the Q also boosts the TC site, as well.

In fairness to the Mall, one thing MayDay’s red-area map didn’t note is the potential expansion over the railroad/RTA tracks and, possibly, the Shoreway, depending on what becomes of it (perhaps lowered or tunneled) in its future lakefront boulevard configuration. 

Existing Infrastructure?  Yes, beautiful Public Hall exists as do the foundations w/ the current underground complex (although one article noted weak soil considerations could be problematic).  However, Tower City already has the shopping mall, 2 luxury hotels and a number of high-end restaurants and the Q existing RIGHT NOW. 


Using Public Hall?  I love this building, too.  But I don’t believe it has become a white elephant (Litt’s words).  The studio stage/sound stage idea seems workable.  Plus I would tie Music Hall and the Auditorium more into the Rock Hall, esp since we’re finally getting R&RHOF inductions back, albeit in rotations.  I just can’t see this building going to waste, but it is in dire need of fixing up.

[MayDay]

"I don't see the Mall as more "central" than Tower City, but less, esp in terms of Public Square, the traffic and transit hub."

What I meant by centralized is that the available land at the Mall site is less "stretched out" than at Tower City. I wasn't referring to its location downtown or proximity to transit, etc., more the "shape" of the site if that makes sense. I'm just saying that if the CC were to be built at TC, they'll want to invest in those golf-cart trams they have at the airport in case someone needs to go from the furthest point west to the furthest point east. 

"MayDay’s red-area map didn’t note is the potential expansion over the railroad/RTA tracks"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but federal law prevents that from happening.

[jamiec]

If you're curious, this is what the convention center in Las Vegas looks like. From what I hear, this is where people really love having conventions.

That's my big concern. How are they going to fill a convention center here?

[clvlndr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but federal law prevents that from happening.

I've never heard that, but it very well may be true (but isn't Chicago's McCormick Place built over the old IC/Metra Electric commuter rail tracks?)  Perhaps KJP has some insight on this.

[MyTwoSense]

JamieC, that not the convention center.  Also, what concerns do you have about bookings?  There are several bookings at the current Cleveland convention center and many large scale bookings at the IX, the new center would assume bookings by both as the IX will go away and then there are the 50 additional reoccurring events that will be booked.

I think McCormick place was grand fathered.  I thought I read that the case can be made for Cleveland's "extension" as well, since it would be tying in an existing rail station.  If it was a complete new build it would be a no-go.

[3231]

Regarding Litt's latest blog entry:  The guy is usually pretty well-reasoned, but this article was weak. I can understand why he wants the CC to be located at the current site, but he uses some pretty flawed reasoning to back up his point. Does he really want future CC expansions to occur on lakefront property??

[X]

Well, wasn't the "Lakefront Option" of the current CC site stretching the Convention Center over the tracks and or Shoreway, with the Mall stretching along over the top?

[cleveland pride]

The idea of expanding north onto lakefront property struck me as a little bit off too.  I am far from an expert in this area, but it seems to me that I might find myself asking if this is the best use of such prime land if at some point in the future the convention center began to expand more towards the lake.  I'm glad to see that I am not the only one considering this aspect of the proposal. 

[clvlndr]

^Yet another reason why Tower City's the better site.

[MyTwoSense]

Well, wasn't the "Lakefront Option" of the current CC site stretching the Convention Center over the tracks and or Shoreway, with the Mall stretching along over the top?

Yes

^Yet another reason why Tower City's the better site.

I disagree neighbor.  Having the center attatched to Tower City only helps one group.  Tower City.  Not Cleveland as a whole.

[Scav]

"I disagree neighbor.  Having the center attatched to Tower City only helps one group.  Tower City.  Not Cleveland as a whole."

I could see how you would think this.. but I think its going to immensely benefit the whole city. I mean, sure you would have a lot of people eating lunch in tower city and spending a lot of time/money there.. but if your here on business do you think they want to stay inside of one huge complex? NO they want convenience, but im sure they will want to explore just a little bit. I mean yeah TC will develop a lot of tourist shops (hopefully mainly booths), but the stores inside of it should improve in quality.. something that really would put a great impression on visitors.

In my mind sure they might eat breakfast at their hotel (WHD/pesht? or Central bus. dist), WALK through the streets to the convention center, MAYBE stay there for lunch.. maybe use the trolley or get away from the convention by going outside, etc. Plus after they are done with business what do they do for dinner? hopefully either have a dinner planned with a client or something (in that case a local rest.).. or they go out with their colleagues (or themself?) and when they do, they arent going to want to go BACK to the CC/TC complex are they? i surely wouldnt.. i would want something walkable and good: a nice city restaurant.

I guess in my opinion it WILL help the whole city because it will vastly improve our "keystone" building, or our main transportation hub and skyscraper. TC needs help, and I think adding the MM/CC will benefit the city greatly by not only improving TC as a whole, but giving many parts of downtown a flourish of activity. People look at a sh!tty TC and think, wow this city is really crappy if we call THIS our best attraction/activity place (or at least one of them). so improving it will give out of towners AND locals great thoughts about the cleve.

[redbrick]

A number of recent posts have talked about TC as the transportation hub. What about the future? Ohio Hub, commuter rail, Amtrak? I'm not going to pretend to be the expert on this (he's over in GB) but FCE has basically turned their back on growing TC as a transportation hub. They built an office tower over top of the old western approach tracks.

I'm trying to keep an open mind about these two sites but as attractive as TC is today as the transportation hub for RTA, if a new convention center at the existing location could facilitate bridging the tracks below mall C and include a major intercity rail station (one seat trip to Columbus or Chicago or Pittsburgh - leaving during the day!) that would tend to make me favor the current site. The RTA waterfront line would connect the two stations and provide nice linkage for visitors to FEB and TC amenities.

None of this would really impinge on lakefront development, just bridge tracks and roadway between mall C and Browns stadium that aren't going anywhere. Then, to keep dreaming -- put a roof on Browns Stadium with a direct connection to the rail hub and the new convention center.

[danmc]

Don't forget the IX Center. It won't just go away...and look at the size of the IX Center and compare it to the size of the proposed new Cleveland Convention Center. Maybe this has all changed. See this from 2005:

I-X Center boss nixes closure talk
By JAY MILLER
July 04, 2005 6:01AM

The I-X Center lives. And its operator and users aren't going to abandon it quietly to ease the way for a new downtown convention center.

Asked if he would relinquish his lease if a new, large convention center were built downtown, Ray Park, whose Park Corp. leases the mammoth I-X Center from the city of Cleveland, was brief and clear: "Absolutely not, under no circumstances," Mr. Park said. "The I-X Center is a going concern."

The Convention Facilities Authority (CFA), the quasi-public agency created last year to make decisions about how to improve Cleveland's convention facilities, has been grappling with options for a new convention center on the site of the 45-year-old Cleveland Convention Center on the Mall.

PricewaterhouseCoopers, which recently completed a study of the local convention and trade show market for the CFA, recommended the community build a center with a 300,000-square-foot exhibit hall, slightly bigger than the current hall, which offers 278,000 square feet of space. That would bring a new center's occupancy rate up to an acceptable level and maximize the impact on downtown. Last Friday, the CFA's planning committee voted to recommend that the CFA set a goal of building a 300,000-square-foot center. However, it also recommended that the CFA not disturb the I-X Center lease, which runs until 2014...

more at: http://www.crainscleveland.com

[clvlndr]

I disagree neighbor.  Having the center attached to Tower City only helps one group.  Tower City.  Not Cleveland as a whole.   - MyTwoSense

Huh?  Helps only one group?  Surely your not still letting your hatred of Ratner/Miller/FCE cloud your vision.  Does Tower City belong to them or, rather does it not belong to all of us?  Is not TC the most important mixed-use complex in all of Cleveland and, if so are you ready, as you sound, to simply let it die simply because you have it in for Ratner?  Is that logical, MTS?

Tower City is right across the street from/can stimulate Stark/Pesht and, finally, link TC with WHD, our most popular/prosperous residential/entertainment area.  Ditto, to the East, it can stimulate growth in the dead zone linking Public Sq to E. 4th.  Right now Fat Fish Blue is one of the only prosperous retail or restaurants in that zone.  I really don't see how rebuilding at the current location helps downtown so much.   

How much has the old underground CC at the location helped?  How much spinoff can you have at the Mall which, true to Dan Burnham's revolutionary Turn of the (20th) Century grouping, is surrounded by a wall of single-use (mostly handsome) public buildings that go dark M-F after 6p, particularly the (not so handsome) Justice Center, which would block the MMPI/CC from the WHD?   --- and lets not forget, in our infinite wisdom, we've rebuilt the Stadium along the Mall/CC's northern flank -- assuming CC receives air rights to build over the RR/RTA tracks as we discussed yesterday.  After the conventions are over, do you really see this area as a people place generating needed revenue for the city?

[MyTwoSense]

RyanScav, how many conventions/events do you attend a year?  That could be applied to anyone here to attends conventions.

DC center opened up in an area that had nothing, now its bustling with new hotels, restaurants and the neighborhood has vastly improved.  When I'm in Atlanta I'm able to walk to restaurants downtown as they purposely built a hotel corridor between Peachtree and Courtland. In Tampa the center is attached to a hotel and four other hotels are withing a short walk and there are restaurants and amenities close by.  When in Houston the Convention Center opened with a great hotel and is in a good location downtown from hotels, restaurants, etc.

As you pointed out.  IF the CC is built at TC, TC improves, but how does putting the CC at TC, improve developments and business that are convention oriented (restaurants, hotels, amenities, etc.) or new business that will come (that don't exist in Cleveland since the majority of money making events take place outside the CBD at the IX Center) to Cleveland to capitalize on new convention oriented business.  Marketers, travel editors, Convention directors, Company Travel Managers and convention coordinators, etc will say TowerCity looks great, but go away from the site and there is nothing to do or see.  

WE have to think about the larger picture not just today's convenience. So what if TC is connected to the rail station and two hotels.  If you place the center at its current location those coming for conventions have 6 hotels within a three block radius therefore sharing the wealth.  

You also increase the number of restaurants within that three block radius, if attached to towercity, you say to conventioner, DO NOT LEAVE, we have all you need INSIDE this building.

Also, if FCE was so intent on getting the center, why have they not done anything with the mall to improve the retail selection; built a new hotel or at least asked the Marriott Corp./The Renaissance to expand as well as market TC as a "destination" within Cleveland?

Why sacrifice the location so that FCE can benefit?

[MyTwoSense]

I disagree neighbor.  Having the center attached to Tower City only helps one group.  Tower City.  Not Cleveland as a whole.   - MyTwoSense

Huh?  Helps only one group?  Surely your not still letting your hatred of Ratner/Miller/FCE cloud your vision.  Does Tower City belong to them or, rather does it not belong to all of us?  Is not TC the most important mixed-use complex in all of Cleveland and, if so are you ready, as you sound, to simply let it die simply because you have it in for Ratner?  Is that logical, MTS?

Tower City is right across the street from/can stimulate Stark/Pesht and, finally, link TC with WHD, our most popular/prosperous residential/entertainment area.  Ditto, to the East, it can stimulate growth in the dead zone linking Public Sq to E. 4th.  Right now Fat Fish Blue is one of the only prosperous retail or restaurants in that zone.  I really don't see how rebuilding at the current location helps downtown so much.   

How much has the old underground CC at the location helped?  How much spinoff can you have at the Mall which, true to Dan Burnham's revolutionary Turn of the (20th) Century grouping, is surrounded by a wall of single-use (mostly handsome) public buildings that go dark M-F after 6p, particularly the (not so handsome) Justice Center, which would block the MMPI/CC from the WHD?   --- and lets not forget, in our infinite wisdom, we've rebuilt the Stadium along the Mall/CC's northern flank -- assuming CC receives air rights to build over the RR/RTA tracks as we discussed yesterday.  After the conventions are over, do you really see this area as a people place generating needed revenue for the city?

What has TC/the miller/FCE done with OUR investment??  Seriously???  Its not about hating them by any means.

We all know the current CC is inadequate on many levels, but the new design eliminates many of those issues.  The County buildings will be eliminated and so what if people have to walk past the Justice center to get to the warehouse district.  That is a mute issue, since many resident live there.  Has the Justice Center being were its located people or  buying or renting in that area or restaurants operating in the area?  If so, then the occupoancy rates would not be so high, correct?

The current center is one/two block north of the proposed stark development.  This whole "people don't want to walk" or "what about clevelands weather in winter" is BS.

[clvlndr]

Why sacrifice the location so that FCE can benefit? -- MTS

Again, we all benefit, not just FCE.  I'm sorry, MTS, but you're reflecting the balkanized logic that keeps leaders & developers fighting and continues to hold this city back.

[clvlndr]

^^ Has FCE been the ideal owner of TC?  No.  Should they have gotten a quality Dept. store in Higbee's space?  Yes (but, remember, FCE didn't cause Higbee's to be taken over by the yayhoo Dillard's either).  Like it or not MTS, whether you, I or anyone on this board agrees (which I do) that FCE hasn't done enough, doesn't negate the importance of this building to downtown and Cleveand as a whole.  And even in it's weakened state, it is still one of, if not the, most impressive buildings/complexes in this city.  I'm still not connecting with your thought process: OK, they're lousy owners, lets kill this major complex and, to hell w/ the effect such will have on Cleveland?

The Justice Center does in fact block a projected CC from the WHD.  Obviously, people can walk around it, but why should they have to?  the JC would be a neighborhood splitter and, imho, one of Cleveland's biggest problems, neighborhood-wise, is that our hottest/hippest areas are cut off from one another making them seem like islands pedestrians have to "get to." 

[MyTwoSense]

Well you and I are going to have to "agree" to "disgree" on the subject of location for the new CC.

[Scav]

we could have a poll so everyone could get an opinion in, but i think its going to be beneficial either way. I just believe that we could majorly improve one of our flagship locations. people attending these conventions will still be walking from their hotels. Nonetheless, i am far from an expert in this area.. I just hope our officials know what will be best for the city.

[X]

Alot to address here.

Re: The current CC site being seperated from the Warehouse District from the JC- Has anyone here ever walked along Prospect or Huron at street level through Tower City?  It's alot of blank walls, wind, and a nasty crossing to get over Superior Ave, perhaps the most pedestrian unfriendly street in Downtown.  This path is even more pedestrian unfriendly than crossing through the Civic Center and across the JC.

Re: Tower City spinoff and the need to "prop" TC up- Will Tower City not benefit from having the Medical Mart/CC as a part of our Downtown landscape even if it goes to the current site?  I know they are important, but I don't like throwing so much of the spinoff to them alone.  Putting $400 million of public investment into someone's backyard like that is doing way too much to prop up one private property owner over the rest of Downtown.  It just isn't fair to others who have invested in our Downtown as well.  Put the CC in a neutral site and them compete for the spinoff business, like everyone else.

Re: the use of lakefront land- The "lakefront" extension of the CC would include stretching the Mall (ie the largest public space in our Downtown, which stretches right through it's heart) along it's top, bringing it closer to the Lakefront and helping to bridge the gap between Downtown and the lakefront.  And let's not get revisionist with these assertions that this is a bad use of lakefront land, because it isn't lakefront land, it is the air rights over the impediments to the lakefront that we would be building over and making into pedestrian friendly public space.  Stating otherwise is either misinformed or misleading.

Re: using the current CC/Public Auditorium for studio/soundstage space- can anyone point to any sort of study to prove that this is a feasible use that can support the upkeep of these structures for some time to come?

Re: site suitability of the TC site for Convention Center layout and use- the Planning Commission already studied the sites and found the TC site to be seriously deficient and inferior to the current CC site in terms of layout of the CC's space and access.  I've posted the results of that study here multiple times, apparently nobody reads it. 

Which brings me to: F-ck it.  This is going to FCE no matter what.  The rest is dog and pony show.  I'm wasting my time.

[clvlndr]

Well you and I are going to have to "agree" to "disgree" on the subject of location for the new CC.

Hey, but it's fun to debate... On this one, in the long run, downtown wins either way.

[MyTwoSense]

..... in the long run, downtown wins either way.

I agree with that!

[mrnyc]

ideally the new cc should be the renovated cc plan, no question. it is such a creative and ingenious update of an already ingenious site, it seriously kind of takes your breadth away. it will be highly talked about and admired. this unlike some awkward cc built into a mall, which is how the tc site would be seen.

renovation has so many benefits. most of all it keeps an otherwise huge and difficult downtown structure buried out of sight and mind where it belongs, but also it will spur a new hotel and other businesses around the mall area, will spread the convention-related business around town better, will further connect the city to the lakefront and will even improve wfl transit.

[FrqntFlyr]

And let's not get revisionist with these assertions that this is a bad use of lakefront land, because it isn't lakefront land, it is the air rights over the impediments to the lakefront that we would be building over and making into pedestrian friendly public space.  Stating otherwise is either misinformed or misleading.

Great point.

Re: using the current CC/Public Auditorium for studio/soundstage space- can anyone point to any sort of study to prove that this is a feasible use that can support the upkeep of these structures for some time to come?

Well said.  It's the same thought that I have every time I hear someone say that the Mall site can be re-used as a soundstage-type space.

[3231]

Re: site suitability of the TC site for Convention Center layout and use- the Planning Commission already studied the sites and found the TC site to be seriously deficient and inferior to the current CC site in terms of layout of the CC's space and access.  I've posted the results of that study here multiple times, apparently nobody reads it. 

I lean towards the TC site, so I'm curious about this study.

[X]

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/Convention/convention.php

[StrapHanger]

^Thanks for posting that- a very useful review.  I think I'm fully on board with the current site-especially if it involves building something (the MM and a hotel?) on the county land and crappy privately owned stuff on the west side of Mall B.  Building this thing at Tower City just looks like a total design clusterf*ck that will loom large (literally) over too much of downtown and the Flats

I don't know much about the operations of the current convention center, but I was sort of surprised how hard it was to find specs and plans about it on the web.  And I found very, very little about the Public Hall facilities (and on a City site, the Public Auditorium is mislabeled as Music Hall-cute).  This site has some nice photos of Music Hall and the Little Theater, neither of which I've ever been inside of, but they look pretty awesome and I'd think they could add a nice classy touch to some conventions if the rest of the Center was modernized: http://realneo.us/blog/susan-miller/name-this-theater-in-cleveland

[McCleveland]

In an ideal world I'd love to see the original site revamped for the CC and the Medical Mart still be placed in the Higbee's or May Company Building... It's like 4 blocks.  It would help breathe life into Tower City... not leave the current site barren, and add some life to an area that is extremely stagnet.  Another thought to consider is that when the initial proposal for the existing site was released, it called for the razing of the county building for a new hotel and/or a medical mart to go in it's place... of course that was when the county was planning on leaving for the Breuer / Rotunda site.  Now they'd need a new home for this site to even be contemplated.  In my UtopiaCleveland, Breuer Tower gets saved / redone as condos/hotels... Medical Mart goes in the Higbee Building... and the County locates with Stark which should give him enough to get Pesht going... Pesht being a partial link between the mart and the CC.  But I've stated many times before... I'm pretty sure this decision is well already made.  Get ready for the TC site, and let's at least hope that the attached convention center can help recreate Tower City as a legitimate shopping destination, and that they can come up with a good plan on how not to have the existing site be a wasteland.

[willyboy]

Get ready for the TC site

and the key to the final location decision, in spite of having the input of the location committee and consultant is that the commissioners will make the final decision (yeah, I'm sure they will take into consideration the recommendation ).

[Vulpster03]

I think when it comes to Tower City, downtown and Convention Center there are two different thought processes

1. Aim to build a stronger downtown by using the existing/lakefront site, and we will see a better Tower City.
2. Aim to build a stronger Tower City by using the riverfront site, and we will see a better downtown.

[Scav]

I think when it comes to Tower City, downtown and Convention Center there are two different thought processes

1. Aim to build a stronger downtown by using the existing/lakefront site, and we will see a better Tower City.
2. Aim to build a stronger Tower City by using the riverfront site, and we will see a better downtown.

if i may.. boom shacka lacka..  you hit the nail on the head.

lets hope our leaders take the right advice.

[Vulpster03]

^ Well thank you, but I think we still disagree. I am strongly in favor of the Mall site

[Vulpster03]

I can understand both camps, but I fall into the first camp. Aim to build a stronger downtown by utilizing the existing center on the Mall site. If downtown is strong, we will see a better and more vibrant Tower City Center.

I consider Tower City a great asset, a regional hub of transportation and a signature gateway to downtown. However, I do not consider Tower City a "civic" space. Tower City Center with its RTA hub is a gateway between downtown and Greater Cleveland commuters. It should reach out to the community to which it is linked by transit lines. Forest City Enterprises should focus on running Tower City Center as the city's signature commercial and retail complex, and perhaps consider becoming a key player in transit-oriented residential development for Cuyahoga Cuyahoga County along those transit lines, which the county has already provided.

The Mall site has greater long term appeal and possiblity for downtown for several reasons. It is the only place to do it right.
1. This gurantees the county will not be left with an obsolete monolith in the middle of downtown. Preserves and bolsters one of the leading "civic" spaces in the country.
2. Plenty of room for adequate space or potential expansion.
3. The abundance of intermodal transportation linkage (car, rapid, inter-city rail, ferry, air) available at E.9th Pier
4. Allows for greatest reach by downtown pedestrians by placing the Convention Center in the middle of Public Square, Northcoast Harbor, Warehouse District and Erieview District.
5. Restores faith in Cuyahoga citizens by showing leadership is capable of following through on the Group Plan and Lakefront Plan.

Many cities have a regional transportation hub and a seperate inter-city transportation hub. I suppose that is what I am pushing for with Tower City (Public Square) and Northcoast Harbor (the Mall).

Needless to say, I'll be disappointed if it goes to Tower City.