Topic: Cleveland: Courthouse Plaza

[Oldmanladyluck]

Does anybody know any info on this project?  I remember first hearing of this project 3 years ago... but so far, I guess nothing has been done.
The website for the project has a video explaining everything about the project.

http://www.chplaza.com/

[MayDay]

All I know is that the project had some financing issues - especially when Larry Dolan withdrew his support. If a Doubletree Hotel couldn't get financed (as in Courthouse Square over on Lakeside), it's not surprising that a 'boutique' hotel/condo tower had issues. Here's a pic from Downtown Cleveland Building Projects - it's on the left:

[the pope]

sigh..

[FerrariEnzo]

Speaking of that picture, does anyonw know when the landscaping will be carried out and we wont have a huge open ditch.  I know they overran the budget but cmon now.

To ad to Maydays comments, after supports and scrilla was lost they proposed it farther awat next to the high was North of the Site and it has been in limbo since.  The developer claimed it was alive but....

[zaceman]

i dont know if this project is dead yet.  check out the website and use "red" and "rose" as the username/password.  theres a new video on there that has photos of The Pinnacle u/c and District Park and includes the spencer tunick thing.  currently its only open to investor relations but still i dont think its totally dead yet given the fact that similar sized projects are going on in other places downtown...

[MyTwoSense]

This is a HUGE improvement over the original video presentation.  Very cosmopolitan, positive and progressive.

It's the most positive video about the city and downtown i've heard in years.  Whoever wrote this should be doing PR for the city.

two thumbs up!

[3231]

This would be great. The timeline says that presale should have started last February.  So, I would guess that they do not have enough investors.

[X]

It doesn't surprise me, projects often don't die, they just get postponed until the market or the investment climate changes.  As long as the developer still has the land, they are still going to want to develop it somehow to get back what they've put in , i.e. acquisition and other predevelopment costs.

[Map Boy]

i remember getting excited about this one like 5 years ago and then not hearing a word...I'm not going to get my hopes up...especially since I think it's the wrong type of development for this site.

regardless, I think i'll go scope out the video!

[Map Boy]

I'm sorry, but that video cracked me up!  Sure, there are a few solid marketing pieces in there, but the dialogue between the narrator and the astonished yokel---I mean, local---and the pictures of rich old white people that apparently live in this non-existent place...and add to that the dance/rave scene that flowed so smoothly into the quote about the average age of residents being upper 40s...whew!  sign me up!     

[zaceman]

LOL wrong video!  theres two, the one you mentioned is the older one.  the newer one is a bit less... ok A LOT less cheesy

[Map Boy]

nope, watched 'em both...and they both made me so uncomfortable...to the point that I had just had to start laughing!

[MayDay]

I have to agree that the second video is *somewhat* better in that the narration is slightly better and they brought in things like the Tunick shoot.

The design (colors, typeface, etc.) of the entire site doesn't convey luxury living to me at all. They need to stop trying to dumb down or 'class' down their presentation just because it's in Cleveland. The people who have the money to invest in such a project have likely been exposed to polished marketing materials and what's on the Courthouse Plaza site needs tweaked. They seriously need to look at some of the presentations put together by other developers - a good (though not perfect) example would be the Turnberry company: http://turnberryplace.com/ http://www.turnberrytowerarlington.com/

I just have to wonder what the hell the developers were thinking with the 'narrator/yokel' dialogue. The quickest way to turn off a potential client is to insult them - and that's exactly what that dialogue did. It presumed that potential clients wouldn't be aware of the benefits of investing in such a project. Sure, there's a way to address the issue but the hackneyed dialogue is probably the worst way to go.

[MyTwoSense]

I have to agree that the second video is *somewhat* better in that the narration is slightly better and they brought in things like the Tunick shoot.

The design (colors, typeface, etc.) of the entire site doesn't convey luxury living to me at all. They need to stop trying to dumb down or 'class' down their presentation just because it's in Cleveland. The people who have the money to invest in such a project have likely been exposed to polished marketing materials and what's on the Courthouse Plaza site needs tweaked. They seriously need to look at some of the presentations put together by other developers - a good (though not perfect) example would be the Turnberry company: http://turnberryplace.com/ http://www.turnberrytowerarlington.com/

I just have to wonder what the hell the developers were thinking with the 'narrator/yokel' dialogue. The quickest way to turn off a potential client is to insult them - and that's exactly what that dialogue did. It presumed that potential clients wouldn't be aware of the benefits of investing in such a project. Sure, there's a way to address the issue but the hackneyed dialogue is probably the worst way to go.

I also don't think they produced the video in that manner because it was "in cleveland".  Personally, I didn't find the original insulting to me as potential buyer, i found it UNPROFESSIONAL and unappealing, and not well produced. 

If investors/developers are targetting a "luxury/upscale" market or those trying to buy in to that type of investment, their marketing materials need to be "top notch" from jump!

Now that the pinnacle is almost done - crossing fingers - the next condo project (say stonebridge) has to take it to the next level and current condo's will have to adjust the way they market their properties as to remain "hip", "toney", "cool".

Has anyone contacted them as to comment on the materials?  (I'm reaching for straws, but) maybe they are not aware its just as bad as we think it is.  Although I thought it was progressive compared to the "negative" ways certain parts of the city are preceived.

[clvlndr]

I hope you guys are right and that CH Plaza is simply in "remission."  I wonder, though, how closely they're watching 515 Euclid.  If that tower jumps off, you'd think CH Plaza, w/ all its pluses -- next to red hot WHD, near Wolstein's new E. Bank Dev., sitting on new Rapid station developed solely for CH Plaze (which would directly connect w/ Wolstein's), could attract CH new backing to pull it from mothballs to reality.  Wishful thinking?  Yeah, maybe...

[theguv]

FYI - the landscaping around the new federal courthouse was completed this past summer and really looks great.  additionally, it offers one of the few and perhaps the only, dedicated pedestrian connection between the flats and the warehouse district area.  the landscapers really did a fine job, the 180 or so stairs are well worth your time for a short stroll,  especially right now with the colors of fall showing off all their beauty.
note also, that this landscaping, unlike MOST projects in Cleveland, appreciates that we have a winter here and addresses that with a variety of evergreen plantings.  very well done. 

on a side note, i think the beautiful old buidling at the bottom of the stairs, next to W. 9th is primed for redevelopment opportunities.  it's a real gem...

[X]

That is the old B&O rail station.  It is supposed to be converted into a musuem dedicated to Cleveland's immigrant groups, but has been stalled in funding for a couple of years now.

[Map Boy]

Is this a possible connection to the Towpath Trail?  I haven't yet seen the park, though I go past it every day.  All I ever see is the steeply sloping parking lot!  I'll have to check this out...

[kevmr25]

I doubt that this thing will ever get built now

[kevmr25]

I hope i'm wrong^

[X]

The most recent investor package they put out was dated Oct.'05, so they have been pursuing it up till recently.  That doesn't mean that it will or won't get built, of course.

[gotribe]

Is this the one the Dolans are in on?

[MayDay]

Correction - the Dolans WERE in on. They bailed a while ago according to an article in Crains from way back when.

[KJP]

Don't know if this project still has life, but I was surfing the web and found this at:

http://paytoarchitects.com/planningcourthouse.htm

COURTHOUSE PLAZA:
PARKING GARAGE, OFFICE, & CONDOMINIUM COMPLEX

Cleveland, Ohio

o Project proposed location in downtown
   Cleveland.
o Two phase development

o Program Includes:
      - 26 story Hotel/ Condominium tower
      - 400,000 SF of office space
      - 550 space parking structure
      - Landscaped urban plaza
      - Vehicular access from (2) levels
      - Construction over rail right of way

o Payto Architects Scope of services included:
      - Urban Design
      - Master Planning
      - Project Design
      - Design Development
      - Project Approvals

The downtown urban site for this project is proposed to be located adjacent to the new Federal Courthouse at the intersection of Huron, Superior and W.9 th Streets in Downtown Cleveland. This project not only had tight spacial and area constraints but also is located between and major turn of the century bridge across the Cuyahoga River and the RTA rapid transit lines to the western areas of the city. The parking facility consists of parking for 534 cars on four levels, the upper of which being a plaza linking the complex to the new Federal Courthouse. The verticality of the site allowed for access both the upper plaza level and the lower level along the River’s edge area also known as “The Flats.” Phase I consists of a 26 story hotel / condo development with meeting facilities, an indoor aquatic center and restaurant. Phase II consists of a 400,000 SF office building to be built over the RTA right of way. Both phases were to be tied together by a large landscaped plaza which would also serve as the entry plaza for the new Federal Courthouse.
__________________

Not sure if the use of the word "were" means this puppy's dead. But here's some cool visuals...





And this one I especially like...

[architrance]

http://blog.cleveland.com/cribnotes/2008/08/a_local_development_group_want.html

I understand the desire, from a developer’s perspective, the need to build a tower at this location to maximize the property’s worth, but I cant help but wonder if that is the highest and greatest use of this land for the community as a whole. Downtown is an exciting and burgeoning neighborhood that has the potential to grow and become an amazing place. I’ve always thought that Cleveland had such great untapped potential, which is just now beginning to be realized. All the talk of new commercial, retail, and especially residential development is of enormous importance for the city and entire region.

However with all of this new transformation and potential growth, we need to not forget the special attributes that make Cleveland so unique. Instead we need to capitalize on them. The Flats as a whole are an amazing, edgy, one of a kind place that for the most part right now, goes sadly unrealized, is neglected, and is hard to get to.

This particular piece of property happens to be a potential lynchpin of sorts: it lies directly between the heart of downtown and the heart of these forgotten Flats. Thus its value and importance for the city and region are immense. Right now the Flats are beginning to take shape and open up to the public. Major private developments continue which will bring new residents and visitors to this unique place. A new convention center may soon be located very near. The Ohio and Erie Canal Towpath Trail and Scenic Railroad will eventually reach all the way into downtown, connecting with a vast and extraordinary network of parks and green spaces throughout Ohio.

This amazing network’s ultimate destination is the future Canal Basin Park, the former end of the canal system and its connection to the Great Lakes. The Canal Basin Park is therefore of immense importance, and must be completed in a most spectacular fashion to realize its potential as a place of world renown.

A place that is Cleveland.

This site is thus crucial, lying directly between the future Canal Basin Park, and the heart of downtown.

As the burgeoning residential population continues to grow, it is apparent that one major amenity is lacking for the true development of lively, attractive residential areas: a real urban park with open green space. Canal Basin Park can help to fill that void by creating a public space for the residents of nearby areas, the Flats, and the Warehouse and Gateway Districts. But it must have a strong connection directly into the heart downtown, creating a grand, visible, and accessible new gateway down into the Flats.

Imagine this grand new urban space cascading down from Superior, just steps from Public Square, terracing down into the Flats and Canal Basin Park, all the way to the banks of the Cuyahoga; linked to a vast network of pedestrian and bicycle trails; nestled between and beneath beautiful infrastructure, the iconic bridges that span the industrial valley. This place is Cleveland. It speaks specifically to Cleveland; it’s historic past, and it’s potentially brilliant future. It would form a strong new gateway to Columbus peninsula, and open up the entire Flats and the greater river valley for the public to explore.

Whatever eventually happens on this site, it must capitalize on its incredible potential. The planning must not be shortsighted; it must take into account what’s best for the entire region, not just an isolated parcel. It must act as this new grand public gateway to the most unique destination that Cleveland has to offer. It must become a catalyst to spur further development and growth in the surrounding area. Most importantly it must think big and not just achieve the same old status quo; it must blaze a brave new trail and become the precedent of an amazing future.

In short, it must help reach the potential what Cleveland was, what Cleveland is, and what Cleveland might someday be…

[3231]

Architrance, good first post. Welcome to UO.

Fortunately for Cleveland, there are some good groups that are taking a look at how to improve the Flats and how to connect all the various existing and future projects. Check out http://www.buildingcleveland.org/

[jpop]

I really love that website. It's beautiful.

[MayDay]

Not sure how recent this is, but someone at skyscraperpage.com tipped me off to renderings of a redesigned Courthouse Plaza (three different concepts, actually). I have my doubts about it actually happening, especially with the current economy but it's an impressive and decidedly different approach than the renderings posted before:

[3231]

Interesting. This is just such an odd project. We never ever hear anything about it and then new renderings pop up every once in a while. I agree that this one seems far from reality.

[cardsnxtyr]

I like how they have an RTA stop built for the rapid at the base of the new structure.

[Htsguy]

Really just a fantasy.  Unless it is a new group of principals, these guys did not have the resources to complete this project even in GOOD economic times...they do like to dream however which is not all bad.  Sometimes (very rarely) dreams do come true.

[gotribe]

Really just a fantasy.  Unless it is a new group of principals, these guys did not have the resources to complete this project even in GOOD economic times...they do like to dream however which is not all bad.  Sometimes (very rarely) dreams do come true.

I thought it was Larry Dolan's developement.  Did it change hands?  If not, what do you mean by not enough resources?

[3231]

I thought Dolan was just an investor. The project lost momentum when Dolan pulled out years ago.

[cleveland pride]

I'm not sure that those are very recent.  I know I remember seeing the second one last fall on a different website.  I specifically remember it because I was thinking of how similar it is to a condo building north of Chicago off of 94. 

[327]

Jenga.  I liked the previous rendering and I like these too although the first one is a little basic.  Putting something bold there softens the blow of the courthouse, which is way too dominant over the western approach.  That is an awfully big plaza in the 1st & 3rd pics.  Shouldn't the open area go towards the valley rather than the intersection?