Topic: Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport (BKL)

[Pugu]

Finally, some solid thinking of why BKL is important for Cleveland--a nice change from the more common arguments calling for its closure. (one technical point from the article: "Burke currently handles any kind of aircraft flown in the world."  I don't think the airport could handle an A380 or an An225, but overall its a good article.)

Burke's role in economic development and aviation is critical for Cleveland's future
By Plain Dealer guest columnist
April 19, 2010, 3:52PM

Burke Lakefront Airport has opportunity to soar
By Anthony J. Coyne

Clevelanders should not consider grounding Burke Lakefront Airport before it is given an opportunity to take off. Recent articles and editorials have argued that the city of Cleveland and those charged with planning its future development have ignored the role and potential of Burke, possible alternative uses of its 450 acres and the transportation network surrounding it. Not so.

Consider these facts....

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/04/burkes_role_in_economic_develo.html

[Keith]

^I was under the impression that the A380 could land anywhere the 747 could and I know I've seen 747s at Burke. 

[Hootenany]

^I was under the impression that the A380 could land anywhere the 747 could and I know I've seen 747s at Burke. 

The A380 is MUCH heavier.  I think it has more to do with the construction of the runway and tarmac for load bearing more than the runway distance itself.  I think a few airports have had to rebuild runways to accommodate the A380.  Oh, and you need double decker jetways and other monster support equipment... it's really a beast of a plane.

I'm actually a little surprised that 747's can land at Burke.  The runway is only about 6,000 ft. long which is pretty tight for a 747.  I highly doubt a commercial airline would land a fully loaded 747 at BKL.

[Keith]

^Burke's runways are 9000 feet. http://www.clevelandairport.com/site/414/default.aspx

[FrqntFlyr]

That's Hopkins.  Burke's are the following lengths:
 
Primary  6L/24R:  6,198 ft. long x 150 ft. wide
Secondary  6R/34L:  5,198 ft. long x 100 ft. wide

http://www.burkeairport.com/Facilities---Services/Runway-Specifications.aspx

[Keith]

Oh, oops.

[bjk]

As a point of comparison, Burke's runway length is going to be about the same  as Chicago Midway or Washington Reagan National.

[MD88PILOT]

^I was under the impression that the A380 could land anywhere the 747 could and I know I've seen 747s at Burke. 

The A380 is MUCH heavier.  I think it has more to do with the construction of the runway and tarmac for load bearing more than the runway distance itself.  I think a few airports have had to rebuild runways to accommodate the A380.  Oh, and you need double decker jetways and other monster support equipment... it's really a beast of a plane.

I'm actually a little surprised that 747's can land at Burke.  The runway is only about 6,000 ft. long which is pretty tight for a 747.  I highly doubt a commercial airline would land a fully loaded 747 at BKL.

As you might remember, the USAF flies an empty C-5A Galaxy to the airshow at BLK every September.

The key to aircraft performance isn't size, its thrust to weight ratio.  Also, you have to consider whether or not the taxiway and runway surfaces can support the weight (they can).

I've personally flown L-1011 and B767 aircraft to LaGuardia and LGA only has 7,000 foot runways. 

[Pugu]

I've personally flown L-1011 and B767 aircraft to LaGuardia and LGA only has 7,000 foot runways.

wow..i wouldn't want to be such a heavy bird landing at LGA...

Air Force One uses BKL, doesn't it? Though I believe its been modified to use shorter runways than what it traditionally used for 747s, no?

[Bookman]

Air Force One uses Hopkins.  More room for security.  I truly cannot remember a 747 every being at BKL.

[MyTwoSense]

As a point of comparison, Burke's runway length is going to be about the same  as Chicago Midway or Washington Reagan National.

Yes, but I don't think the runway can support the weight of at 747/767/777 type plane

[MyTwoSense]

Air Force One uses Hopkins.  More room for security.  I truly cannot remember a 747 every being at BKL.

Me either.  Continental has diverted 767's, and 777's to hopkins during newark issues.
 
However, you see private 747s land at Hopkins constantly.

[Pugu]

What are people's thoughts as to the impact on BKL of the UA-CO merger?

[MyTwoSense]

What are people's thoughts as to the impact on BKL of the UA-CO merger?

There will be no change.  Burke is a non factor.

What leads you to believe there will or will not be impact at Burke.

Continental owns or has control over the landing rights at Burke.  There is currently no commercial jet service and with the merger there wont be any.

[cardsnxtyr]

Since when did Air Canada and Delta start flying planes into Burke? Over the past 2 weeks I've seen an Air Canada plane land once and parked by one of the hangers once. And 2 days ago I saw a Delta plane parked next to the same hanger closest to the terminal. I dont know plane sizes at all so I can't say which one it was, but it was bigger than the planes Continental flys out of terminal D at Hopkins.

[MyTwoSense]

Since when did Air Canada and Delta start flying planes into Burke? Over the past 2 weeks I've seen an Air Canada plane land once and parked by one of the hangers once. And 2 days ago I saw a Delta plane parked next to the same hanger closest to the terminal. I dont know plane sizes at all so I can't say which one it was, but it was bigger than the planes Continental flys out of terminal D at Hopkins.

Those were Charters.

[Hootenany]

Since when did Air Canada and Delta start flying planes into Burke? Over the past 2 weeks I've seen an Air Canada plane land once and parked by one of the hangers once. And 2 days ago I saw a Delta plane parked next to the same hanger closest to the terminal. I dont know plane sizes at all so I can't say which one it was, but it was bigger than the planes Continental flys out of terminal D at Hopkins.

Pretty sure that Air Canada plane (737 or A320) was the Toronto Blue Jays aircraft.  I saw it take off last Wednesday at about 5:20 after the afternoon game and it turned Northeast as most Air Canada planes would I suppose.  I've also seen the Texas Rangers plane at BKL this year.  Seems pretty standard for sports charters to use BKL.

[ksonic99]

Those were charters.

Toronto Blue Jays
and
Boston Celtics

a couple of days before that there was a 737 with the Texas Rangers painted on it.

[Pugu]

    What are people's thoughts as to the impact on BKL of the UA-CO merger?

There will be no change.  Burke is a non factor.

What leads you to believe there will or will not be impact at Burke.

Continental owns or has control over the landing rights at Burke.  There is currently no commercial jet service and with the merger there wont be any.

"Continental owns or has control over the landing rights at Burke." Did you mean to add the 'neither' after 'Continental'? In any event, I think CO does actually have some unofficial control as to what competitive flights are allowed at BKL...off the record.

Two things come to mind:

1. If CO's market dominance is reduced there would be greater chances for new carriers to enter the market. For example, Porter Air mentioned its interest in Cleveland--and probably to BKL as it mirrors their service at their hub--Toronto City Airport (and not YYZ--the Toronto equivalent of Hopkins).

2. If CO indeed calls the shots for commercial service at BKL, then any hub dissolution may take that power away, meaning the airport and its cheaper landing fees becomes an option for airlines.

[stpats44113]

Does anyone know what is going on at the Northern Edge of Burk? There's been a lot of heavy equipment working there for the last four months and someone said that they plan on putting a restaurant out there. I kind find that hard to believe?

[Foraker]

Does anyone know what is going on at the Northern Edge of Burk? There's been a lot of heavy equipment working there for the last four months and someone said that they plan on putting a restaurant out there. I kind find that hard to believe?

I believe that is a dredging fill area and they are just moving fill around and compacting the ground to accommodate additional material dredged from the river.  No chance of a restaurant there, but maybe somewhere else adjacent to Burke.

[urbanlife]

Does anyone know what is going on at the Northern Edge of Burk? There's been a lot of heavy equipment working there for the last four months and someone said that they plan on putting a restaurant out there. I kind find that hard to believe?

i don't think there is a restaurant going there, but there is a significant amount of fill that has been leaving the area.  there is a gate set up on the east side of aviation high school and a number of trucks leaving each day.  on busy days, the city was spraying down north marginal with water in the evening to clean up the dust/dirt. 

my thought was that the city was moving some of this fill to their developing industrial park along I77, but that is just a guess.  i haven't followed any of the trucks.

[ClevelandOhio]

New hangar space at Cleveland's Burke Lakefront Airport could mark start of lakefront plan


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Efforts to build hangar space for an aircraft maintenance company at Burke Lakefront Airport could prove the first piece of the city of Cleveland's larger, expansive plans for redeveloping the lakefront.

Constant Aviation, a company based at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, is looking for as much as 100,000 square feet at Burke. One of the potential sites is Aviation High School, which has been vacant for years except for a short period when it was used as a homeless shelter.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/05/new_hangar_space_at_burke_lake.html

[Pugu]

^Its nice to see an aviation company looking at Burke to grow.  According to their website, they're headquartered at CLE, with operations also in Alabama.

Its also good to see that the city is looking to improve BKL and doing so in conjunction with the overall lakefront plan (and not in conflict with it). I didn't see the master plan cited in the article, but it would be great to have a 'regular' terminal there with secure areas, baggage claims, gates with seats, etc.

[Pugu]

Interesting. Two BKL articles in one day. The above and:

Military planes using Cleveland's Burke Lakefront Airport on a training mission

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Military planes seen flying along the Lake Erie shoreline Thursday evening likely raised questions with anyone who saw them. The planes, C-27 Spartans, were using Burke Lakefront Airport on a training mission, an airport spokesman said, and were carrying Air Force personnel...

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/05/military_planes_using_clevelan.html

[X]

I was down at Voinovich Park and saw them go overhead.  I couldn't figure out what they were doing.

[Pugu]

FAA/Congressional budget issue impacting projects at BKL (and elsewhere).

"...The funding impasse has also delayed the start of a $473,000 project to resurface the runway apron at Burke Lakefront Airport in downtown Cleveland...."

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/08/work_at_cleveland_hopkins_inte.html

[Pugu]

Little story from the past when the big 1.5 million balloon release at Public Square closed a runway at BKL (as well as did other things)....

http://www.cleveland.com/remembers/index.ssf/2011/08/balloonfest_1986_the_spectacle.html

[DontGiveUptheFight]

It would be a unique intermodal hub to have air, water, rail and highway all at a single port facility. I don't know of another that combines all four major modes of transportation at one location. Offers some interesting possibilities for linking up the modes!

I like it a lot, but I think the FAA said no to this plan.  That being said, how can this be made possible?  Does the landfill around Burke have to be expanded to provide the clearance for harbor cranes and allow planes to land?  If so, I think that this could probably happen a lot sooner than the scuttled E. 55th port and clear out more land for lakefront development.

I would also like Burke to become a downtown alternative to Hopkins.  I think it's a bit ridiculous that the alternative so far is Akron-Canton, which is so far from downtown Cleveland (but, yes, good for Akron-Canton).  Extending the Red Line to Burke could then provide an efficient link for people transferring between airports.

[Pugu]

Not a service change, but apparently more transparency about landing fees or some company just made a good sale, replacing the city's existing system. Here's that company's press release.

"STAMFORD, Conn., Feb. 14, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- PASSUR® Aerospace, Inc. (OTC: PSSR.PK) announced today that Cleveland Hopkins International Airport and Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport have contracted for the PASSUR® Landing Fee Management solution to ensure that the airports capture all their landing fees, forecast and plan revenue accurately, and simplify the process through automation...."

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cleveland-hopkins-international-airport-and-cleveland-burke-lakefront-airport-contract-for-passur-revenue-management-solutions-139278383.html

[Cleburger]

Since when did Air Canada and Delta start flying planes into Burke? Over the past 2 weeks I've seen an Air Canada plane land once and parked by one of the hangers once. And 2 days ago I saw a Delta plane parked next to the same hanger closest to the terminal. I dont know plane sizes at all so I can't say which one it was, but it was bigger than the planes Continental flys out of terminal D at Hopkins.

Charters.  Check to see who the Tribe is playing.   

[surfohio]

^ When I worked over at Erieview I got addicted to this site:

http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBKL

[StrapHanger]

^I wish you hadn't shared that link.

[surfohio]

^I wish you hadn't shared that link.

Ha ha! But yeah, now I understand how people can get pretty eccentric watching boats/planes etc. I love how you can click on the type of plane or jet.

[Cleburger]

^ When I worked over at Erieview I got addicted to this site:

http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBKL

Yeah if you can get the tail number you can find out where it came from (unless the owner of the aircraft has it blocked with the site).