Cincinnati Light Rail News

[David]

I love the subway. I've always dreamed of turning a portion of it into a restaurant/nightclub.

[Cincinnatus]

I love the subway. I've always dreamed of turning a portion of it into a restaurant/nightclub.

There's a gay bar downtown called, the "Subway".

[thomasbw]

from that article

"It's only about 25 miles from Kniss's office to her home, but driving to her little bit of heaven in the evenings is a grueling 75 minutes, meaning that, on average, her speedometer is hovering just above zero."

No that means her speedometer is hovering around 20.

[thomasbw]

And another thing, only 25 miles ? she is commuting 50 miles round trip, that is exactly 20 times my round trip commute.

[NBow37]

On a totally different tune, i filled up my mom's car today.  $47.00.  I wonder if we had the same vote for light rail this year as we did back in 2002, if there would be a ton more people in favor.  It's getting ridiculous the amount of gas prices and traffic.  I just don't understand why cincinnati continues to be light years behind every other city in this area

[thomasbw]

It's getting ridiculous the amount of gas prices and traffic

not really, that is exactly what happens when a society is entirely dependent on the automobile.

[John Schneider]

On a totally different tune, i filled up my mom's car today.  $47.00.  I wonder if we had the same vote for light rail this year as we did back in 2002, if there would be a ton more people in favor.  It's getting ridiculous the amount of gas prices and traffic.  I just don't understand why cincinnati continues to be light years behind every other city in this area

Adjusted for inflation, gas prices in November 2002 were at just about the lowest level since the end of WWII.

[UncleRando]

On a totally different tune, i filled up my mom's car today.  $47.00.  I wonder if we had the same vote for light rail this year as we did back in 2002, if there would be a ton more people in favor.  It's getting ridiculous the amount of gas prices and traffic.  I just don't understand why cincinnati continues to be light years behind every other city in this area

Unfortunately I just read an article that was talking about how prices are up for gasoline, but demand continues to rise.    I also wouldn't say that Cincinnati is 'light years' behind other cities in the area, because no one in the area is really doing anything.  I haven't heard a peep about transit for Louisville...Cbus only has their streetcar stuff moving along (like Cincy), there is not much doing in Cleveland, Indy's transit is more of an aesthetic thing than anything (it's kind of a private service for some select interests) other than that they have light-rail crawling along.

It's a sad state for transit in this area and really the country as a whole.

[NBow37]

True Rando.  The population is shifting west and south due to whatever reason (Weather, new start, job, etc).  that also is a factor.  but cities in the west and south are striving for light rail.  in the northeast public transportation has already been solid for awhile.  but your right, midwest cities are struggling right now minus chicago and minneapolis and Cbus.  however, in the midwest, pittsburgh, minneapolis, chicago, st louis, and cleveland all have some form of organized public transportation besides buses right now.  effective 100% of the time, not really.  but seeing how its starting to change my old city of LA as we speak and other "newer" cities, i've been sold to the effectiveness and i think we all are.

[John Schneider]

True Rando.  The population is shifting west and south due to whatever reason (Weather, new start, job, etc).  that also is a factor.  but cities in the west and south are striving for light rail.  in the northeast public transportation has already been solid for awhile.  but your right, midwest cities are struggling right now minus chicago and minneapolis and Cbus.  however, in the midwest, pittsburgh, minneapolis, chicago, st louis, and cleveland all have some form of organized public transportation besides buses right now.  effective 100% of the time, not really.  but seeing how its starting to change my old city of LA as we speak and other "newer" cities, i've been sold to the effectiveness and i think we all are.

Here's what I think is interesting. Some of the cities that are aggressively building LRT systems include Denver (117 miles), Dallas (70 miles), Houston, Salt Lake City, Los Angeles and Calgary.

What do these cities have in common? They're oil-patch cities, more or less.

What do they know that we don't?

[Eigth and State]

^---  This is just a guess, but....

       Those cities are all growing cities with a lot of political clout. They have the resources to build light rail, and we don't. It's not that they want it more than we do, but they have more money to spend.

       The fact that they are growing also invites a longer term view of investment in infrastructure. Would you build light rail or anything else for that matter in a shrinking city?  Ohio is projected to peak in population in 2018 and then decline, according to the U.S. Census. Compare to Texas, Florida, and California which are projected to gain 12 million each by 2030.

[cincydrewinclifton]

A.) cincinnati proper has not been shrinking anymore for almost a decade. it actually gained a small number since the 2000 census.

B.) our metropolitan region (which is what you would take into considerationn for light rail) is growing at a steady pace...metropolitanly we're bigger even than columbus whose cosmopolitus is twice our size. And I read a study a while back that our density in the area is perfect for light rail. people here just like to live in the burbs and work in the city for some reason...I couldn't live out there in cookie cutter house land next to the walmarts and old people stores but hey to each their own...until they want to live in their geographical center (which needless to say is pretty well set)we'll need light rail to deal with our growing eastern corridor.

[John Schneider]

I don't think raw population growth, or the lack of it, is a driver of rail investments. No region of the world is building more rail than Western Europe, and populations there are static to declining.

It really has more to do with population distribution, and here Cincinnati does quite well. If you just consider simple density within the corporate limits, we're more dense than many cities that are building rail -- Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Charlotte, San Diego and probably several others. Account for our parklands and unbuildable hillsides, and our effective density is even higher.

But what really matters most is density of travel, and this is where Cincinnati really rings the bell. An overwhelming fraction of our travel is SW to NE on two roads, I-71 and I-75. They can't be widened much because sections of them are constrained in valleys. Rail can operate on 35-foot corridors, so it fits there.

My view is, we're ideal for it. Every person I've met from around the country who has studied Cincinnati's travel patterns and topography pretty much agrees.

[UncleRando]

I'm going to play devils advocate here for a second...I think the argument against light rail in Cincinnati has been that of economics.  The region (and other cash strapped regions) are hesitant to proceed on transit related issues because they view it as a "luxury" or a "risk".  This is the main problem...people think that when money is tight, spend it on a 'sure thing' not a "luxury" or "risk".  How can we overcome this mentality in Cincinnati?  I don't know, but I think that is the biggest argument against light rail in the area.  Its unfortunate that people view highways/interchanges as 'sure things' in our society and not mass transit.

[Eigth and State]

Cincydrew:

   A) We discussed the population growth in another thread. The conclusion was that Cincinnati proper is not growing. The most recent estimate is based on a different method than what was used in the past. Using a consistent method would probably show a loss.

   B) All of this talk of metro populations is influenced by the boundary you choose. In Ohio, roughly 1/4 of our counties are losing population, 1/4 are gaining, and 1/2 are stable. Generally, the diagonal Cincinnati-Columbus-Cleveland I-71 corridor counties are gaining, except the 3 urban counties. The northeast and southwest quadrants of the state are losing.

   So, count Hamilton, Clermont, Butler, and Warren, and yes, we are growing.

   Add Clinton, Brown, Highland, Ross, Pike, and Adams, and we are barely gaining. If you don't think that Highland county is part of the Cincinnati metro, please note that Hillsboro people do their shopping in Cincinnati. In fact, there used to be an interurban railway between Cincinnati and Hillsboro.

    Again, Ohio as a whole is barely growing, and Census projections show that by 2018 we will be shrinking.


John:

   I agree with just about everthing you say. My point is that the driver of investments, literally, is funding. Cincinnati may be ideal for rail, and Houston may not be. But, if Houston has more money available than Cincinnati, well, then the rail investments are going to be in Houston. In this sense, the other considerations don't really matter.

    If I'm not mistaken, the European countries tax gasoline and use the proceeds to build rail. This encourages transit in TWO ways: it makes it more expensive to drive, and improves transit operation. Again, this doesn't really have as much to do with density as it does with funding. I can only imagine what kind of public transit we might have if we funded transit instead of motorways.

    How does population growth fit into this? Maybe those growing cities have a better ratio of wage earners to dependents, and thus have more money for rail. We can barely get school levies passed here, much less get rail funded.

    Respectfully, a rail skeptic. 
 
   

[xumelanie]

I'm going to play devils advocate here for a second...I think the argument against light rail in Cincinnati has been that of economics.  The region (and other cash strapped regions) are hesitant to proceed on transit related issues because they view it as a "luxury" or a "risk".  This is the main problem...people think that when money is tight, spend it on a 'sure thing' not a "luxury" or "risk".  How can we overcome this mentality in Cincinnati?  I don't know, but I think that is the biggest argument against light rail in the area.  Its unfortunate that people view highways/interchanges as 'sure things' in our society and not mass transit.

I'm not sure if this will do it, but transportation can be viewed as a necessity.  People need to get to work, to go to school, run errands, etc.  People tend to spend more money on transportation in areas where there is little to no mass transit.  In the Cincinnati region, people tend to spend 20% of their income on transportation.  In areas that have decent mass transit, people may spend closer to 14% of their incomes on transportation costs.  Transportation is not a luxury per se, it's a necessity. 

[jmecklenborg]

I took some more test photos in the short Hopple St. subway tunnel this past weekend.  I took completely different lighting this time, specifically a pair of 6V flashlight bulbs wedged in the springs on the top of 6V batteries.  When I do this for real to go down there with dozens, maybe up to 100 of these flashlight bulbs to light up the stations.  They'd be placed in the gaps between the parallel tunnels or in the stations behind pillars.  The big advantage of this method is that these things can run for days off those batteries meaning you can just let them keep burning the whole time you're down there.  This means people can walk around and see what the heck they're stepping on and also the camera has something to help it frame and focus.  However the plain low kelvin flashlight bulbs alone make for flat lighting so there needs to be higher color temp lighting in at least part of every shot.     

This is looking back toward the portal, for unknown reasons the D70 can't handle this lighting situation with a 30 second exposure and misinterprets daylight as green.  When I do this for real it'll be with color slide film which won't have this problem.     


Near the portals with no extra lighting:


This shot mixes the light of my high color temp LED headlamp with the low kelvin 6V bulbs and also in the distance there is another LED light.  The idea is to put a light in every single one of these gaps in the Hopple St. tunnel, there are about 70 of these gaps.  The blue-colored LED light is probably 100 feet from the camera.  Depth perception is totally thrown off down there. 


I'm thinking about taking a pair of photos at several points in the tunnels and displaying them side-by-side like this.  Except they'd actually be lined up correctly.  It's hard as hell to aim a camera accurately in complete darkness.  I'm switching to a camera with a built-in bubble level after this.   

[The Last Don]

Here are a few ideas on Uptown transit:

First of all, when deciding what to do in the Uptown area, our leaders need to consider the wider region and how Uptown fits into the bigger picture.

If a regional transit system is ever developed, there will probably be three hubs in Cincinnati.  The main hub will be in Downtown, and two secondary hubs will be in Northside and Evanston, respectively.

Here is the 2002 Metro Rail Plan:


A long term transit plan for Uptown should connect to all three hubs, providing the necessary interconnectivity to this important part of the city. Here is a general concept of what I'm talking about:



The key is for the system to flow with as few transfers as possible.  The solution may not be for a connector system...perhaps the main rail lines should be brought straight into Uptown.  Afterall, this is the second largest employment district in the city, and a geographic focal point.

The solution might come from the recent past.  Remember the concept of the Mt. Auburn tunnel:


From Cincinnati-Transit.net

A subway tunnel could provide quick, efficient access between Downtown and Uptown, while moving northward to the Evanston hub:




Then a streetcar system could connect Uptown in a loop before moving onto Ludlow and the Northside hub:




The two lines together:




Anyway...just an idea to throw out there...

[thomasbw]

the problem with your system is that it misses corryville, a neighborhood with so much potential for rehabs and new constructions.  no zoo connection

also subways are really expensive,

but you seem to have a good point about evanston.

[dmerkow]

In this model it would not be that hard to fix the corryville issue. You run a spur along Vine St. through Short Vine, which needs that kind of help as well. That could be an every fifth trolley kind of thing to the Zoo and back rather than to the Northside transit center.

Nice work. I'll meet you at the base of the hill and we can start digging on Saturday. Kidding but in a good way. 

[Neville]

Corryville isn't missed really. Corryville is the area bordered (from what I know) by Reading, Taft/Mcmillan, Jefferson, and MLK. The subway, from the depiction, go under Jefferson (or Vine) and MLK. That leaves the potential for 2 or more stops for UC/Corryville/Uptown.

[thomasbw]

^good point, it all depends on the number and location of stops.

[The Last Don]

Also, I should point out that the entire line would not necessarily be underground.  For instance, the line could go underground at Mulberry and emerge at Short Vine and run above ground from there.

If it ran on Short Vine and MLK then it would have stops in Corryville, but it would miss the zoo.

[jmecklenborg]

Knowlton's Corner collects buses from Montana Ave., Colerain, Hamilton, and Winton Rd.  It then primarily sends them either down I-75  or down Clifton Ave. via Ludlow.  The #16 heads downtown via Colerain Ave., the #20 heads down Central Parkway, and the #27 via Beekman St.   The total number of daily riders is something pretty impressive like 20,000. 

I've long thought that a light rail connection using the subway to Northside could collect not only all these Knowlton's Corner buses but also the #64 (Westwood-Northern Blvd.) via a station at Hopple St. and all of the Western Hills Viaduct buses by routing buses on the lower deck with a turnaround and transfer to the subway on the short section of Harrison Ave. next to the existing Brighton subway station.

A streetcar line beginning up towards The Comet could travel the Northside strip and then head up the Ludlow Hill and then down Clifton Ave, in tandem with the subway line replacing pretty much all bus traffic originating from College Hill west to Green Twp. except some express lines that would continue to use I-75. 

I drew this map a few months ago which shows the basic concept:


The red is a light rail line hugging the big railroad yard at-grade and all surface running except a short underground run of two or three blocks under Hamilton Ave.  Orange is more of a streetcar line that would use the subway and then Colerain Ave. through Camp Washington.  Cyan is the Clifton streetcar line. 

Also the light rail line drawn is the cheapest I could imagine, with an at-grade alignment on that derelict stretch of Harrison Ave. between Spring Grove and the Brighton subway stop.  The subway could be accessed either by building a portal somewhere on Harrison or crossing I-75 north of the Western Hills Viaduct.

Also a west side light rail line using the C&O ROW could replace most bus service by having a station and transit hub near the McDonald's in South Fairmount.  This and the Northside light rail line could share part of a new viaduct over I-75 and the southern portion of Camp Washington.       

All these buses would turn around at Knowlton's Corner or at their meeting with the line meaning not only fewer buses but fewer drivers, saving the transit agency tons in operating costs.  It also turns Camp Washington and Brighton into areas with fantastic mass transit access, with trains on 5 minute headways all day long. 

Queen City Metro's timetables estimate 20-25 minutes between KC and downtown, a light rail route using the subway would easily match that and with some grade separation elsewhere get things close to 13 minutes.  The estimate for the old subway was about 13 minutes between Northside and the existing Race St. station so 15 minutes to fountain square.  This line would need six trains total to operate on 5 minute headways.  This means 12 trains per hour each direction per hour with a capacity of 300-500 passengers each, so a huge capacity.           

[The Last Don]

I like your use of the subway tunnel underneath Central Parkway.  I drew up a regional plan in conjunction with my Uptown concept that includes the Central Parkway subway tunnels, and these could use light rail lines.  This is essentially a modification of the 2002 Metro Plan. 

The stations running from Liberty to Northside could be used as Bus Hubs, as you described.  Like the Mt. Auburn subway concept, it could emerge above ground partway through its course:



Note the Anderson Ferry Bridge and the Maglev lines.  This would be something for well into the future, like 50 to 100 years.  These lines could run through the industrial areas in the Mill Creek Valley and along River Road.  With Maglev, you could be in downtown Columbus in 40 minutes.  You could go from Cincinnati to Dayton in 24 minutes, all the way to West Chester in just 8 minutes. 

And to the Airport in under 4 minutes.

[jmecklenborg]

>The estimate for the old subway was about 13 minutes between Northside and the existing Race St. station so 15 minutes to fountain square.

I should add too that that figure included 5 stops in between Fountain Square and KC.  The subway stations would all need to be rebuilt for low platform vehicles and to make them ADA compliant.  This would mean ripping up central parkway and completely replacing both the Liberty and Brighton stations. The Brighton station would be tough because I'd bet the north wall is also a retaining wall holding back the hill.  The Race St. station would not have to have its box walls replaced because it is an island platform design.  But I think the entire roof would have to be taken off, or at least as much as would be needed for new 200 or 300ft. platforms.  The alternative is a bare-bones approach where none of the subway's stations would not be used initially and trains would simply run express until they would surface near Vine and head down a pair of downtown streets.  In that case service would be very fast since trains could operate at 45mph between the WH Viaduct and the Plum St. turn, a distance of two miles.  However rebuilding those stations when the tunnel is in service would be tough, I'd guess the work would have to mostly be done at night.

And of course building a ROW on the east side of I-75 between the WH Viaduct and Ludlow Ave. when it's rebuilt would make way too much sense which is why it's not going to happen.     

[dmerkow]

It all seems so easy and would make the quality of life in the city so much better. My hope is that the streetcar line will go gangbusters and in ten years people will be ready to get on board with these ideas.

[BDRUF]

After reading the latest news on mass transit it really makes me scratch my head why Cincy can’t be more progressive. I’m a huge fan of the slight improvements that they have made in the downtown area, but there is still a long road ahead. Why not instead of making the entire city Wi-Fi ready; make the city connected my mass transit? Re-open the terminal as it was intended to be used; for trains. Link Cincy - Dayton –Columus- Cleveland. They made the Miami-Erie canal without machines in 7 years. Why can’t we build a rail line that does the same thing? I’m done ranting because it never does any good…. Just a little food for thought.

[noozer]

BDRUF.... check out www.ohiohub.com and see what the State of Ohio is planning for passenger rail statewide.  At least part of what you want is in the planning stages.  If you like it, let your Congressman know. 

[David]

After reading the latest news on mass transit it really makes me scratch my head why Cincy can’t be more progressive. I’m a huge fan of the slight improvements that they have made in the downtown area, but there is still a long road ahead. Why not instead of making the entire city Wi-Fi ready; make the city connected my mass transit? Re-open the terminal as it was intended to be used; for trains. Link Cincy - Dayton –Columus- Cleveland. They made the Miami-Erie canal without machines in 7 years. Why can’t we build a rail line that does the same thing? I’m done ranting because it never does any good…. Just a little food for thought.

Wi-fi is cheaper.