Author Topic: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign  (Read 358100 times)

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2275 on: May 03, 2016, 12:52:47 AM »
You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed.

The entire project is pure aesthetics.  But we're drawing a line at exposed piping and machinery?  That seems at least as important as adding plastic snails.

Offline Sherman Cahal

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2276 on: May 03, 2016, 06:42:44 AM »
Sure. If Cincinnati and 3CDC took HVAC piping and essential equipment as seriously as the one poster on here, Fountain Square would have never happened. I'm not sure if you've been to Carew Tower, but you can see the HVAC on the roof of the Via Vite restaurant - and countless of other structures.

I mean, people were complaining about the "cheap" metal chairs and tables. And the big-screen television. And the trees. But you know something? It's popular. It revived a forgotten area of downtown and jumpstarted redevelopment efforts around it. Not one complaint about the HVAC system. And no complaints about the chairs, tables, televisions and trees (unless you follow one of those Old Photos/Memories of Cincinnati Facebook groups where the older folks constantly drag the city down).

Some people can't see the forest for all of the trees.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 06:44:09 AM by Sherman Cahal »

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2277 on: May 03, 2016, 07:16:40 AM »
You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed.

The entire project is pure aesthetics.  But we're drawing a line at exposed piping and machinery?  That seems at least as important as adding plastic snails.

Only one of those things costs the city and taxpayers any money.

*Hint* It's not the snails *hint*

Hiding HVAC equipment on such a small building from surrounding buildings is a non-issue. It just isn't common or realistic. The idea that some aerial shots will be "ruined" is questionable. Watch some aerial view of any city and look around. HVAC equipment is all over the place. Basically every building has a jumble of HVAC units, piping, water towers, etc. on their roofs and it isn't at all an issue because that's not the view people generally experience the city from. When on ground level you can't see it and that's really all that matters.

3CDC put green roofs on the small concessions and restroom buildings when they redid Washington Park in Cincinnati. I honestly didn't even realize for about a year and a half since they're so small and you don't see the roof whatsoever from the ground. This will be that same way. It's not even remotely an issue.

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2278 on: May 03, 2016, 07:56:24 AM »
I agree with the sentiment a green roof would make the Square more photogenic for the inevitable aerial and rooftop pictures being taken. But it's also a high cost item that provides no benefit for the people actually using the Square. That puts it first on the chopping block when it's time to cut costs.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 07:57:45 AM by Mendo »

Offline ExPatClevGuy

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2279 on: May 03, 2016, 09:29:12 AM »
With one quick look, you can tell the difference between quality design and "just OK" design.

What we see here is called satisficing, (a combination of to satisfy & to suffice.),
sat·is·fice: to accept an available option as satisfactory.


      A butterfly wing with the beginning stages of consumption?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:36:26 AM by ExPatClevGuy »

Offline justsomethoughts

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2280 on: May 03, 2016, 06:17:24 PM »
Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2273 on: Yesterday at 11:32:00 PM »
LikeQuote
OMG I'll never go to Public Square now! Will you be out there scrubbing the oil stains from the streets? Will you be out there picking up trash that blows in the wind? There are other things to nit pick over than something as inconsequential as this.

You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed. A green roof is all about show for a building of this size -


With all due respect, a green roof is certainly about aesthetics and thus why not strive for superior aesthetics?  Why settle for mediocrity?  Adding green pace to downtown is a great idea as would be adding more green space to neighboring perimeter PS building's roofs..  The extra cost is not that excessive for a project this size nor a project of this importance nor a project in this central location nor a project which will be one of the most photographed iconic images of the new Cleveland.   Why skimp?  In Chicago and other major cities, several small buildings have 100% green roofs.  I have seen numerous bank branches in Chicago much smaller than the building in PS that have a 100% green roof.   If a small bank branch can do it why can't Cleveland?  The Apple stores all have Green Roofs, and so many larger buildings in Chicago green a portion of their roofs.  It would be great to see the Casino's roof with trays of succulents.
 

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2281 on: May 03, 2016, 07:08:47 PM »
You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed.

The entire project is pure aesthetics.  But we're drawing a line at exposed piping and machinery?  That seems at least as important as adding plastic snails.
Only one of those things costs the city and taxpayers any money.

*Hint* It's not the snails *hint*

It isn't about who's funding it, it's about who's making the calls.  Maybe the foundation made its donation contingent on snails.  Or maybe they just told the people with design authority to "do something nice" with the money. 

This project is already way over budget, to the point that the state had to get involved, so it's a little odd to leave any aspect looking unfinished.  If the plan is to spare no expense for aesthetics, which it fundamentally is, then at least follow through with that concept.  This roof will be prominent in a lot more publicity photos than any other roof downtown.  Some buildings do have exposed workings up top, but others don't.  This should be one that doesn't.

I don't think it's that big of a deal, just a less-than-ideal oddity.

I agree with the sentiment a green roof would make the Square more photogenic for the inevitable aerial and rooftop pictures being taken. But it's also a high cost item that provides no benefit for the people actually using the Square. That puts it first on the chopping block when it's time to cut costs.

Using the square includes promoting the city with photos of it.  That may actually be the use that benefits the most people.

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2282 on: May 03, 2016, 07:23:47 PM »
The idea that some rooftop equipment will be the front and center thing people look at when seeing aerial photos is silly. Like mentioned upthread, that is far from the truth for Fountain Square in Cincy with Via Vite in addition to all the stuff on top of the 5/3 garage and on top of Macy's in every picture. We've gotten by with all that HVAC equipment up there in all those aerial views of the square. It's a complete non-issue.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 07:54:01 PM by jmicha »

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2283 on: May 03, 2016, 07:50:44 PM »
I wish I had picture posting skills... because I'm looking at both roofs right now and it's not even a close comparison.  Via Vite's equipment is barely visible, to the extent that any of it is even exposed.  It looks great.  That's quality design work. 

The Public Square cafe's roof is about 50% pipes & stuff.  It looks like the actual roof was torn off in a storm.  That does not meet the benchmark set by Cincinnati.

Offline justsomethoughts

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2284 on: May 03, 2016, 11:14:25 PM »
Looking at the view of PS from the Tower City Web Cam, it is clear that the roof of the cafe is poorly thought and poorly designed.  It is simply ridiculous to not design a green roof in a new park where clearly a major objective is to add green space and an aesthetic improvement to the center of the city.  No one could argue that looking at HVAC equipment that is bound to rust and loads of pipes is beautiful, state of the art, intelligent, environmentally friendly, thoughtful design.  It shows a complete lapse in judgement.  The square footage of that roof is about the same size as the water feature!  So why would you not make it a green roof!

The photo below is of one of many bank branches throughout Chicago that have full green roofs.  That's how good, thoughtful urban design is done!  I find it too "typical" of the Cleveland attitude to acquiesce to mediocrity instead of striving for greatness.

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2285 on: May 03, 2016, 11:24:31 PM »
^did you lose the design contract for the cafe building?

Offline justsomethoughts

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2286 on: May 03, 2016, 11:40:23 PM »
Ha!  Nope.  Yep you are correct.  A disorganized mess of pipes, and heating, air-conditioning and ventilation equipment does look so much better than green vibrant plants.  I can't  believe they even bothered to plant trees and grass in Public Square.  There should be more pipes, mechanical equipment, exhaust fans (that hopefully will rust) instead of lush greenery.  I just wish the cafe was so much bigger so that we can have double the amount of Roof Top Units.  RTUs are so much more interesting and aesthetically pleasing than gardens of plants and vegetation. But only in Cleveland do we plant Plastic Plants in large planters in front of our number one tourist attraction: The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  Who needs real plants when you can have plastic plants!  Who needs green roofs when you can have antiquated building design rife with HVAC RTUs and exhaust pipes!!

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2287 on: May 03, 2016, 11:42:03 PM »
Are we even 100% sure that the roof is in its final state at this point?
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Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2288 on: May 03, 2016, 11:47:23 PM »
According to Land Studio that is the finished design for the cafe.  I was told the design was considered to recess the HVAC for minimal view from the ground.   I did mention to them that much of the views of Public Square are from office windows and voiced my concerns with the placement. No response was made after that. Interesting that all articles regarding the cafe as having ton back side and yet clearly the roof was overlooked as being a dominant feature
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 11:48:39 PM by dave68 »

Offline justsomethoughts

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2289 on: May 03, 2016, 11:54:44 PM »
Sadly yes...What you see is what you will get.  Of course, all early renderings of Public Square where the cafe was originally designed as a more pleasing ellipitcal footprint did not include the Roof Top Units and disorganized pipes. The cafe was redesigned too quickly and the bird's eye view was ignored.  The North, South, East and West elevations show the disorganized RTUs!  It's amazing this passed review!

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/06/first_look_new_designs_for_pub.html

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2290 on: Yesterday at 09:55:28 PM »
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:56:45 PM by KJP »
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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2291 on: Yesterday at 10:53:23 PM »
^Great set of photos.
Also PS will be closed off this wkd for what must be restriping? resurfacing? of the perimeter streets. Idk. Gonna be must see TV!

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Offline Clevecane

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2292 on: Yesterday at 10:55:34 PM »
Ignorant question: is it possible to paint HVAC equipment? Can it be painted green or with a mural of some type--so that it looks less conspicuous or possibly even its own attraction from above? I hear there's a paint company nearby  :-P

I've been trying to get a picture from my office to post--but the cafe is too close to Terminal Tower so the 32nd floor blocks my view  :|

Does anyone else have a view of it from above?
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Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2293 on: Today at 12:19:22 AM »
The perimeter has had all existing striping removed on May 4th. This was visible from the the webcam

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2294 on: Today at 08:58:14 AM »
^Yeah, I noticed that too- looks so weird without lane markings!  I think they've also been installing new traffic signals, maybe? I saw a cherry picker out there at one point and started noticing signal arms that might be new. Will be interesting to see how the perimeter road gets re-striped and signaled.

Also, looks like they've been installing the wooden seat tops on some of the concrete bench walls. That's a really nice detail. Much less cold to sit on in the chillier months and (I hope) easily replace-able as they get damaged and stained over the years.

Looks like there's very little serious work left to do. They need to pour one more concrete roadway section in the middle, do a little more cobble-laying to complete the middle of the butterfly path thing, probably some more planting in the big beds, and some other small stuff. Also some more cafe interior, no doubt.  But can't imagine this thing isn't finished by the end of the month. Can't wait to check it out.
« Last Edit: Today at 08:58:42 AM by StrapHanger »
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Offline Sherman Cahal

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2295 on: Today at 10:27:20 AM »
New traffic signals and mast arm supports are being installed. As for the striping - is the inner lane still reserved for buses? There is a rumble strip that separates the lanes and that can't be removed with a water gun.`

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2296 on: Today at 10:37:05 AM »
^I don't think the BRT lane is going anywhere.
"Cleveland, as you see, is not an apple, but a bunch of grapes each of which has its own particular pattern-some large, others small, some round, others long and narrow, some sweet, others sour, some sound, others rotten throughout."  -Howard Whipple Green, 1932

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2297 on: Today at 01:14:26 PM »
Ignorant question: is it possible to paint HVAC equipment? Can it be painted green or with a mural of some type--so that it looks less conspicuous or possibly even its own attraction from above? I hear there's a paint company nearby  :-P

I've been trying to get a picture from my office to post--but the cafe is too close to Terminal Tower so the 32nd floor blocks my view  :|

Does anyone else have a view of it from above?

I think it is better to keep it as it. Painting it green would really make the entire building stand out within the context of the entire square. The light gray roof and mechanicals blend in fairly well from in the this picture.



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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2298 on: Today at 01:49:48 PM »
Ideally, the roof is completed and is a different color than the surrounding concrete.  Right now the match is uncanny, which helps the HVAC stand out even more.  Via Vite on Fountain Square would be a decent model to emulate.  It's red and most of the equipment is crammed into a back corner. 

Doesn't help that so many people will be approaching this cafe from the rear, since that's where our rail and retail hub is.  It's too bad we couldn't keep the original rounder design. This structure has a cheaper look and its design doesn't allow for a good orientation. 

Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2299 on: Today at 01:55:09 PM »
^ I always thought the retail aspect of PS redesign was most important. And that's precisely the area where they had to cut back. I'm not going to let this ruin my day though lol. But yeah, I almost wish they simply delayed construction until they could come up with something better.

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Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign
« Reply #2300 on: Today at 02:17:18 PM »
yeah after all this work it is weird to leave the mechanicals just bare on the roof like that, but per that pic its not so bad. the rest of the square more than grabs your attention.
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