Author Topic: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation  (Read 33328 times)

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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #175 on: October 02, 2014, 11:02:59 PM »
I think blast-proofing was another aspect.   Does anyone know why the east fašade did a massive reconfiguration and looks different than the other 3 facades?  I'm guessing that had something to do with the 6  month delay.

Yup. First, the building's proximity to surrounding streets is why the FBI, ATF, etc were relocated to a new building on Lakeside yet set back from the street in a horizontally spread out structure that couldn't be brought down Oklahoma City-style. But many more federal offices remain in the federal building which had to be protected as best it could from street-side attack.
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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #176 on: October 02, 2014, 11:03:33 PM »
Don't let the environmental aspects of this throw you.  This was all about blast proofing the building.  They could have brought this building up to current security standards, or they could have built a new building to those standards for twice as much.  This has all been covered in this thread before.

Offline Keith

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Re: Cleveland: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #177 on: October 03, 2014, 09:35:00 AM »
Don't let the environmental aspects of this throw you.  This was all about blast proofing the building.  They could have brought this building up to current security standards, or they could have built a new building to those standards for twice as much.  This has all been covered in this thread before.
Agreed. It was called an energy efficiency project mostly for accounting purposes. In 05/06 DFAS, which takes up over a third of the building, basically gave GSA the choice of build a new building or make the building blast resistant. When they priced building a new building that met the Defense Department standards on new buildings it was going to be over $350 Million.

A part of why it's so expensive is that in addition to slapping some new windows on, they have to replace all the HVAC in the building (most of which is covered in asbestos.) Plus the windows had to be custom ordered, you can't just go pick up blast resistant windows at any old supplier. All the work is being done with the building open to the public. Not to mention every worker, tool, piece of equipment has to go through security every time it enters the site.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 09:37:30 AM by Keith »
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Offline Paul in Cleveland

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Re: Cleveland: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #178 on: December 04, 2014, 10:18:43 AM »
Update from yesterday ...


Offline surfohio

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Re: Cleveland: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #179 on: December 04, 2014, 10:24:51 AM »
^ New windows are looking pretty cool. I'm curious to know how the views from the inside are affected by the additional glass.

Offline Paul in Cleveland

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Re: Cleveland: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #180 on: December 04, 2014, 11:22:40 AM »
Also, I noticed the top of the building from the Innerbelt Bridge the other day, and from that distance, it looks like a totally new building on the skyline.

Offline Keith

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Re: Cleveland: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #181 on: December 04, 2014, 11:49:53 AM »
^ New windows are looking pretty cool. I'm curious to know how the views from the inside are affected by the additional glass.
On the 9th street side of the building the view isn't significantly different as the glass is clear. On the other sides it looks fine if you're looking down, but looking toward the horizon it does affect your ability to see. I've been waiting on taking any pictures as they're not cleaning the windows at all during construction so all you'd see in pics are the filth that has built up during the construction.
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Offline mrclifton88

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #182 on: April 02, 2015, 09:01:41 AM »
I think it's mentioned above but back to the longest project in history :) why does the eastern face have clear glass and the south has the glass with the brownish frosted tint. It looks weird

Offline Freiburg

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #183 on: April 02, 2015, 10:58:59 AM »
I think it's mentioned above but back to the longest project in history :) why does the eastern face have clear glass and the south has the glass with the brownish frosted tint. It looks weird

Three years and counting. This must be one of the most egregious misallocations of resources in Cleveland's history. Over $120 million for this boondoggle. Meanwhile, the roads outside the building (and in neighborhoods across the city) are literally crumbling away, but we are meant to celebrate an increase of the road-resurfacing budget to $10 million per year.

And yes, I realize that it's federal funds going towards this project, and it's not like the city could have decided to spent it on something else. Nevertheless, the juxtaposition is just maddening to me.

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #184 on: April 02, 2015, 11:01:43 AM »
Three years and counting. This must be one of the most egregious misallocations of resources in Cleveland's history. Over $120 million for this boondoggle. Meanwhile, the roads outside the building (and in neighborhoods across the city) are literally crumbling away, but we are meant to celebrate an increase of the road-resurfacing budget to $10 million per year.

And yes, I realize that it's federal funds going towards this project, and it's not like the city could have decided to spent it on something else. Nevertheless, the juxtaposition is just maddening to me.

If only it were that simple. Besides, Congress is already raiding the general fund to keep the highway trust fund from falling into insolvency.
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Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #185 on: April 02, 2015, 11:31:47 AM »
It probably wouldn't have been much more to construct a brand new office tower somewhere downtown instead of $120 million into this old one...
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Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #186 on: April 02, 2015, 12:10:55 PM »
It probably wouldn't have been much more to construct a brand new office tower somewhere downtown instead of $120 million into this old one...

Probably true. Maybe $150 million to $200 million to provide the same square footage with the same security features, bomb-resistant exterior, etc.
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Offline TPH2

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #187 on: April 02, 2015, 12:15:31 PM »
And in about 200 years, it will pay for itself in energy savings.
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Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #188 on: April 02, 2015, 11:12:39 PM »
As has already been covered, they're doing this primarily to make the facility more bomb resistant, the energy efficiency is a nice bonus, but gets coverage because people like it.  The estimate for replacing the facility outright was at least double the $120 million they are spending on the new shell.

Offline Urbanophile

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #189 on: April 02, 2015, 11:19:37 PM »
It's really strange that the glass on the east-facing side isn't frosted like all the other glass. It really doesn't look good. Did the renderings show it like that?

Offline dave68

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #190 on: April 02, 2015, 11:47:32 PM »
I heard they are aiming for a June 2016 completion in time for the RNC Convention.  lol :wink:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 11:48:30 PM by dave68 »

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #191 on: April 03, 2015, 12:27:19 AM »
I heard they are aiming for a June 2016 completion in time for the RNC Convention.  lol :wink:

Maybe they'll be done. Contractors contribute to political campaigns to make sure the work never ends.
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Offline MidwestChamp

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #192 on: April 03, 2015, 02:34:06 PM »
It's really strange that the glass on the east-facing side isn't frosted like all the other glass. It really doesn't look good. Did the renderings show it like that?

I think it's just that picture.  I had a meeting at 9th and St. Clair earlier this week and looking at the building from that intersection the glass on all the sides looked frosted.  It was also a cloudy day, so maybe it depends on how the sun hits the glass. 

Offline Confiteordeo

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #193 on: April 03, 2015, 03:27:38 PM »
Is the glass actually frosted?  I thought I remembered reading that there were problems with condensation building up between the inner and outer layers of glass
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Offline Cleburger

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #194 on: April 03, 2015, 04:22:40 PM »
Is the glass actually frosted?  I thought I remembered reading that there were problems with condensation building up between the inner and outer layers of glass

That's surprising.   And for another $75 million, they'll tear those off and fix the problem....  :roll:
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Offline jmicha

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #195 on: April 03, 2015, 04:26:35 PM »
There aren't condensation problems, it's fritting. Small dots that are frosted that allow a view out but block excessive heat gain.

It also has almost no use on the north or east facades of buildings, hence its exclusion from those sides.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 04:27:45 PM by jmicha »

Offline Urbanophile

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #196 on: April 03, 2015, 05:34:33 PM »
^ Wait, so it's actually not frosted on the east facing side? MidwestChamp just said that he saw it in person and that the glass was frosted on that side.

Offline MidwestChamp

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #197 on: April 04, 2015, 12:22:21 PM »
^that's how it looked to me, but again it was a cloudy day too and it could be more the way the sun hits it. I was driving and couldn't take a picture unfortunately.

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #198 on: April 04, 2015, 12:33:20 PM »
Not sure, I was basing that off the photo where it looks like it's not. If it is it's just for consistency's sake, not for any actual cost saving measures.

Offline heightsfan

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #199 on: April 06, 2015, 02:52:19 PM »
Two comments:

1.  I think the pyramids were built faster than this project is taking to complete. 

2.  When viewing the building this past Saturday while the morning sun was reflecting on the East fašade, it was clear that there are a number of windows on that side that are sweating/fogging up.  The overall impression was not a good one.  Looked cheap and poorly constructed.  I wish we had some good investigative journalists who could look into this boondoggle. 

That is all.

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #200 on: April 06, 2015, 03:04:01 PM »
Are you sure they were fogging up? The benefit of a double facade and multipane glass is that you don't have big temperature differences between either side of the panes because there's the buffer zone between the two curtain wall systems and within each window itself. This insulates the interior from the exterior and vice versa. Not to say it's impossible, but even if poorly built I'm not sure how these would be fogged up in just a normal situation.

How is the payment for this renovation occurring? Was it an "all at once" payment or are they leveraging money in some manner that will be paid back over a long course of time? Because the energy savings could equate to monthly savings greater or equal to the payment for the renovation meaning it won't actually cost anyone anything in the long run. Especially as energy costs increase as time goes on.

Wasn't the original facade in poor condition too? As in it would have needed to be replaced soon regardless? Curtain walls from that era aren't known for their longevity. Meaning, though expensive, this renovation took a situation that would've cost a lot of money, increased the funds, and got a better product out of it?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 03:07:57 PM by jmicha »

Offline heightsfan

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #201 on: April 06, 2015, 03:33:35 PM »
Are you sure they were fogging up? The benefit of a double facade and multipane glass is that you don't have big temperature differences between either side of the panes because there's the buffer zone between the two curtain wall systems and within each window itself. This insulates the interior from the exterior and vice versa. Not to say it's impossible, but even if poorly built I'm not sure how these would be fogged up in just a normal situation.

How is the payment for this renovation occurring? Was it an "all at once" payment or are they leveraging money in some manner that will be paid back over a long course of time? Because the energy savings could equate to monthly savings greater or equal to the payment for the renovation meaning it won't actually cost anyone anything in the long run. Especially as energy costs increase as time goes on.

Wasn't the original facade in poor condition too? As in it would have needed to be replaced soon regardless? Curtain walls from that era aren't known for their longevity. Meaning, though expensive, this renovation took a situation that would've cost a lot of money, increased the funds, and got a better product out of it?

Oh, there were several panes on that side that appeared compromised/fogged up--probably 10-15, randomly situated.   It was very obvious the way the sun was hitting the building that morning.   It was also very cold out in the morning, which when coupled with the sun hitting the building, could explain.  I could easily see the seals on certain of the panes being defective in some way; or certain of the windows being improperly installed.

My recollection is that this project is costing somewhere in the $130M range.  It would seem that it'll take a long time to recoup that investment. 

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cleveland: Downtown: A.J. Celebrezze Federal Building Renovation
« Reply #202 on: April 06, 2015, 03:37:30 PM »
^Sounds like there is possibly some poor installation occurring.

Does anyone know if this double skin facade has conditioned space between the two curtain walls? Many do and this eliminates any fogging that could occur. This could be the source if that gap is not conditioned at the moment but will be in the future.

The reason I asked about the state of the original facade was that, though $130 million, it probably would have cost a large portion of that just to redo the original facade but without any of the cost saving benefits. Still a huge payoff period, but still, it could potentially be beneficial to the overall cost of running this building into the future.

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