Cleveland: Perception Issues

[MyTwoSense]

Actually as an "Outsider" I can't believe any of you are letting this comment by this Edale person even merit these responses. Just from the first sentence "I admit I am not overly familiar with Cleveland" should just about sum it up about this person. Ok so your not familiar but you're going to go ahead and state that most of Cleveland is run down and abandoned? Excuse me but I live in San Francisco and just came back from a week long trip to Cleveland and it's anything but run down and I would take Cleveland any day in a head to head match against Cincinnati in any capacity, and I have been to BOTH towns. So yeah you are totally and completely off base. You must be completely oblivious or insanely insecure about your own Town and I would assume it could be both, not that I am overly familiar with you or anything.

Nothing I said was malicious or intended to be negative in ANY way towards Cleveland.  I said that I am not overly familiar with Cleveland so as to be transparent and not assume to know everything about the city.  I have in fact been to Cleveland a few times, and I have been a member of Urban Ohio for 5 years, and have seen countless photo threads, and kept track of many of the developments going on in Cleveland.  In fact, I like the city a lot, and have enjoyed it when I have visited.

Your comment is out of line, pure and simple. Get your head out of your ass, and look at the raw data. 14% of Cleveland is college educated. the median household income is 28,512. The median house/condo cost is 89,000. Unemployment is 12.2%. It's crime index number is 841.3.  These numbers are all much worse than the Ohio numbers, and especially worse when compared to Cincinnati. Of course when you include the Metro area, the numbers even out a bit more.  Cincinnati and Cleveland both are 77 square miles, so don't give me the excuse that we include further reaching areas in the numbers.  The facts are there. Cleveland was once a very wealthy city, but they have since lost the majority of that money to the suburbs.  This leaves an inner city that is more run down and abandoned than others.  Is that so hard to understand?

I am not insecure at all about Cincinnati, and I don't even live there for most of the year. The only reason I even brought Cincinnati in as an example was due to the fact that the city has a large area of continuous upscale neighborhoods on the East Side, much in the same fashion of the Northside of Chicago.  Stemming from downtown you have Mt. Adams, East Walnut Hills, Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Oakley, and Columbia Tusculum.  All of these neighborhoods are adjacent to each other, and all are expensive, upscale neighborhoods (Oakley is a little more affordable, and has a younger demographic, but is still a solid neighborhood).

All statistics are from: [url=http://www.city-data.com/city/Cleveland-Ohio.html]http://www.city-data.com/city/Cleveland-Ohio.html[/url]

compare to Cincy if you wish: [url=http://www.city-data.com/city/Cincinnati-Ohio.html]http://www.city-data.com/city/Cincinnati-Ohio.html[/url]

Not true!  And we all know city data is not accurate.

[sfbob]

I'm have no intention of getting into a pissing match. I know when it's worth it and when it's not, and this is definitely not. Wow.

[MyTwoSense]

everyone...............
 
 
 

[Whipjacka]

Do you know what would change Cleveland's perception? LeBron staying and creating a dynasty.  Also, if the casino passes, I'm sure it would be less difficult to host large sporting events such as all-star games (baseball and basketball) or college bowl games and NCAA tournaments.  Maybe not the college stuff, but I do feel that being a laughing stock within the sporting community is damaging in some way to our perception.  It acts as a measurable sign of the city's failure.



 

[MyTwoSense]

Do you know what would change Cleveland's perception? LeBron staying and creating a dynasty.  Also, if the casino passes, I'm sure it would be less difficult to host large sporting events such as all-star games (baseball and basketball) or college bowl games and NCAA tournaments.  Maybe not the college stuff, but I do feel that being a laughing stock within the sporting community is damaging in some way to our perception.  It acts as a measurable sign of the city's failure.



 

whipjack, we already have hosted several of those event, from an sports even planning and hosting perspective we are a good city to host in sans two convention hotels.
 
The Cleveland sports commission is a more important incubator and facilitator for sports tourism than LeBron could ever be.
 
Also, sports "all star games" sans the NFL are guided by the leauge, they have a formula as to where the games are held.  It's not based on a bid.
 
Honest and serious question - Why do you feel we are a laughing stock, better yet, what is your definition of a laughing stock. 
 
We're a three major league town with a host of minor league teams in the area.  Not many cities have two let alone three.

[Whipjacka]

Because the browns have had two winning seasons since their inception and haven't won a championship since sixty-four
Tribe ended up in the cellar or the Central Division and haven't won a championship since '48
Cave have been terrible, with terrible owners until 2003 (save the early '70's and early 90's) and we have yet to win it.

Three major sports is good for a medium sized city, but it is expected if you are a major population area, as the Greater Cleveland Area undoubtedly is.

[MyTwoSense]

Because the browns have had two winning seasons since their inception and haven't won a championship since sixty-four
Tribe ended up in the cellar or the Central Division and haven't won a championship since '48
Cave have been terrible, with terrible owners until 2003 (save the early '70's and early 90's) and we have yet to win it.

Three major sports is good for a medium sized city, but it is expected if you are a major population area, as the Greater Cleveland Area undoubtedly is.

And what has that got to do with sports tourism. 
 
To directly counter your points.
 
The browns are damn near sellouts for everygame, even with losing seasons.  Have the largest (or second largest) sports booster organization in the world.
 
Since moving back to downtown the cavs have had winning season and haven't been a profitable!
 
The indians have been great since moving to the jake sans the last few seasons.
 
Also, when it comes to sports the city's size isn't the key its our metro regions size.  Cleveland is ranked (between) 12-15 based on what matrix the researcher is using.
 
Ahh, not three sports is not expected in any city.  So please don't kid yourself with that.  If that was the case, we would have a NHL and Soccer franchise
 
How old are you?

[Whipjacka]

I am 19, but I was speaking to National Perception.  That is what I understood the thread to be about.  There is no doubt that Cleveland fans are amongst the best in the nation, but I feel that we get spat on by the national media.  That was the point I was trying to make, but obviously did a poor job of.

[MyTwoSense]

I am 19, but I was speaking to National Perception.  That is what I understood the thread to be about.  There is no doubt that Cleveland fans are amongst the best in the nation, but I feel that we get spat on by the national media.  That was the point I was trying to make, but obviously did a poor job of.

Well to bring this to full circle, that is your perception, not fact, correct?
 
 

[TMH]

The funny thing about the perception Clevelanders have about downtown is that I think the city has never been better.  I grew up in Cleveland in the 50s through early 70s, left, and returned 12 years ago.  It is amazing how people have this glorified memory of what Cleveland used to be.

In the 60s and early 70s, Playhouse Square was an abandoned, run down area.  All of the theaters were close and slated for demolition.  Look at Playhouse Square now with all of the theaters and restaurants, etc.  Never better.

We complain about Tower City (although as downtown residents my wife and I shop there all the time).  In the 60s and early 70s, TC was an abandoned train station.  At one time it actually contained indoor tennis courts, to try to utilize the space!

The only decent hotel downtown at that time was the site of the current Renaissance hotel.  I remember the Beatles staying there.  Now there are many great hotels downtown.  The Ritz Carlton, Hyatt, Marriott, and Renaissance to name a few.

At that time the Flats consisted of a couple of dive bars and one great rock club (I can't remember the name).  I remember going down there and it was deserted.  After a night of drinking the big event was trying to climb one of the huge piles of gravel that lined the river.  I know the Flats took off for a while, and now it is not as "great", but there is still the Power House, Shooters, and Flat Iron cafe to name only a few of the places.  More importantly there are the Stonebridge apartments bringing residents to downtown.

On East 9th there was the Agora.  That was great.  However we forget it was next door to the Roxie!  The Roxie was a very old burlesque/strip club.  Most of the area around there was not particularly attractive.

Where The Q and Progressive Field are stood the abandoned Central market surrounded by many abandoned buildings.  East. 4th was not a street you wanted to walk down after dark and look at it now.

The Warehouse District consisted of many abandoned warehouses which were a constant fire hazard.  There were no bars or restaurants and no one lived there.  As a matter of fact, in the 60s and 70s no one lived downtown, which meant for the most part, the downtown closed after 5:00 pm.  Now the brightest part about downtown Cleveland is all of the new residents.

In the 60s and 70s there was no Rock Hall, Science Center, or Voinavich Park which meant there was even less access to Lake Erie than now.  And Cleveland State was a small commuter school.

I apologize for rambling, but I am trying to illustrate how perceptions can differ.  While most Clevelanders talk about the good old days, I think Cleveland was never better than it is now.  The problem is that perceptions are hard to alter - it borders on prejudice.

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Do you know what would change Cleveland's perception? LeBron staying and creating a dynasty.  Also, if the casino passes, I'm sure it would be less difficult to host large sporting events such as all-star games (baseball and basketball) or college bowl games and NCAA tournaments.  Maybe not the college stuff, but I do feel that being a laughing stock within the sporting community is damaging in some way to our perception.  It acts as a measurable sign of the city's failure.



 

We're already economically type-cast a sports town and that we can be nothing more....through the eyes of many. I said it a hundred times...Cleveland needs to stop banking all its hopes on LeBron and casinos to save the day. They will not. Uniqueness and building individual character and identity for your city though creative ideas and contributions from individuals, entrepreneurs, etc.. will. Trust in the spirits of such and give them the breaks to help make a really diverse economy that will breed stability.

Contrary to popular myth, Lebron and casinos are of interest to a small minority when viewed against a world backdrop. The world really doesn't give two hoots about LeBron, whether we win a championship... or some po-dunk casino here.....And if you have bigger sights like making this an internationally attractive city...  You have to offer more than a casino where obese Wal-Mart customers with hip huggers, a crispy outdated hairdo, and flip flops will be spending rolls of pennies at the slot machines...that is, if you don't want to be once again, economically type cast as such..... as your new identity. The fact that so much of the mid west has bought onto this thing as their savior looking from the outside in...is laughable and shows a lack of vision and creativity.

Soooo...beacon something really different to the nation and to the world...don't play copy cat and follow the crowd/bandwagon...and then you will see some special things happening more.

Don't build your economy around that which produces dysfunction and poor health, body, mind, spirit. ie: Tobacco industry, booze, gambling, fast food, big box stores flooding the market with cheap Chinese plastic crap. That won't attract the higher quality stake holders or visitors with real cash to spend. Also, get the industry converted to green collar.... re-invent. 

[MyTwoSense]

Do you know what would change Cleveland's perception? LeBron staying and creating a dynasty.  Also, if the casino passes, I'm sure it would be less difficult to host large sporting events such as all-star games (baseball and basketball) or college bowl games and NCAA tournaments.  Maybe not the college stuff, but I do feel that being a laughing stock within the sporting community is damaging in some way to our perception.  It acts as a measurable sign of the city's failure.



 

We're already economically type-cast a sports town and that we can be nothing more....through the eyes of many. I said it a hundred times...Cleveland needs to stop banking all its hopes on LeBron and casinos to save the day. They will not. Uniqueness and building individual character and identity for your city though creative ideas and contributions from individuals, entrepreneurs, etc.. will. Trust in the spirits of such and give them the breaks to help make a really diverse economy that will breed stability.

Contrary to popular myth, Lebron and casinos are of interest to a small minority when viewed against a world backdrop. The world really doesn't give two hoots about LeBron, whether we win a championship... or some po-dunk casino here.....And if you have bigger sights like making this an internationally attractive city...  You have to offer more than a casino where obese Wal-Mart customers with hip huggers, a crispy outdated hairdo, and flip flops will be spending rolls of pennies at the slot machines...that is, if you don't want to be once again, economically type cast as such..... as your new identity. The fact that so much of the mid west has bought onto this thing as their savior looking from the outside in...is laughable and shows a lack of vision and creativity.

Soooo...beacon something really different to the nation and to the world...don't play copy cat and follow the crowd/bandwagon...and then you will see some special things happening more.

Don't build your economy around that which produces dysfunction and poor health, body, mind, spirit. ie: Tobacco industry, booze, gambling, fast food, big box stores flooding the market with cheap Chinese plastic crap. That won't attract the higher quality stake holders or visitors with real cash to spend. Also, get the industry converted to green collar.... re-invent. 

 
Since when is ANYONE banking their hopes and dreams on a casino or LeBron?

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Too much of Cleveland. Oh, maybe I forgot to add the M.Mart thing too. These stories drone on like a depressing church chorus. Oh well, one thing could be certain...through it all, we could be a leader in producing the sickest population...  May be good for Med Mart products.

[Clefan98]

Ec there's people that can help you.  With the right amount of therapy and meds you might make it......

http://psychcentral.com/

[Matches]

I'm not sure about that.  I don't know of anyone who's suggesting we "build our economy" around this one stupid casino. 

[tedolph]

For whatever anecdotal information is worth I can tell you that people here in Seattle had a generally favorable view of Cleveland during the 90's.  This was when the Tribe was in the playoffs with Seattle and the local Seattle paper (we used to have two then, only one now and it is folding) did a comparison of the two cities. 

[Hootenany]

^Isn't it weird (and silly) how success in sports can drastically alter the way a city is viewed from the outside?

[Whipjacka]

M2S will yell at you for saying that

[MyTwoSense]

^Isn't it weird (and silly) how success in sports can drastically alter the way a city is viewed from the outside?

Only to the people who believe that is a real mesure of a cities success.
 

M2S will yell at you for saying that

HUSH Whippersnapper!  LOL  and hey, I'm Puerto Rican, us Latinos are passionate, when we yell its a form of love!  Entiende?!

[Jeffery]

Cleveland had a better reputation a few years ago, when the Rock Hall opened and the Flats was going strong.   Back then it was the comeback city.

Pittsburgh being on the radar is a new thing, and maybe a lot of it is because the city doesn’t look as wasted as one would expect, given the history of de-industrialization.

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

I'm not sure about that.  I don't know of anyone who's suggesting we "build our economy" around this one stupid casino. 

This will hurt this region more than help...and people are not delving deep enough to look at what will be the repercussions that are never discussed...and will not be. Sort of in the same fashion that a Wal-Mart/sprawl is looked at in bringing in jobs, taxes, and so on...But no one ever talks about the jobs and taxes LOST from the independent/locally owned economy...which if you do the homework, you will see they offer nothing the propaganda suggests. Its a trade off that has us surrendering a local identity and soverignty to homogenization and pitty poop jobs. Those who promote this sort of agenda and think they're being visionary are actually taking a short sighted side. MTS is also correct about what he said about measuring a city's success by its sports. That is not a gauge and the last thing we should be doing. We may want to adopt a more pro-academics mindset. I say this and I am a big sports fan and have played several, but still acknowledge the fact that we cannot allow this to become King to the point it holds our city by the balls to get whatever it wishes.  I don't want my economy built around either. It is a desperate act of drawing straws, lack of patience and creative thought. 

[Cincinnatus]

What's your guys' closest casino?

[Hts121]

I'm pretty sure it is the casino near Erie, Pa.  100 miles give or take a few.

[Cincinnatus]

I'm pretty sure it is the casino near Erie, Pa.  100 miles give or take a few.

See, we have one just off the 275 loop, so I'm sure this will probably effect you guys more than it will us -by having a new casino.

[KJP]

M2S will yell at you for saying that

So will I.

If your city school district is graduating 90 percent of its kids, the city's median income is above the national average, you're creating new businesses and jobs every year, your population is growing and your unemployment is low, then who cares if you even have professional sports -- let alone if they are winning teams?

If you had to choose, would rather have that, or would you rather have our current economic situation with pro sports winning championships?

I realize that you shouldn't have to choose, but if I'm a city leader and I have a limited amount of time and resources to accomplish great things, where would I invest them first -- in creating educational and economic opportunities, or would I go lobby to get funding for world-class entertainment facilities?

The latter gets headlines in the short term, while the former takes a lot more work and may not pay off for years if not decades. Since we have become a nation of instant gratification, it's no wonder Cleveland isn't the only U.S. city that has more in common with Third World cities than that which belongs in (supposedly) the Greatest Nation on Earth.

[Wheelingman]

That stupid Plain Dealer always criticizes the city and never tries to offer any solutions. What a joke. I have read that paper for about 13 years or so, I'm 28. It's always been the same. It's unfortunate because the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette offers so much positive news and critiques the problems of the city and metro, while not overdramatizing them like the Plain Dealer. It does lots of research and publishes the solutions to the problems.

I am sorry you are stuck with such a negative newspaper in Cleveland.

[Oldmanladyluck]

^That's part of the reason why I believe locals have such a negative perception of the city.  I myself am not a fan of the paper, nor do I support it.

[KJP]

Cleveland has one-sixth of the metro's population and Cuyahoga County has nearly one-half of the metro population. If one-sixth of the PD's writers and editors live in the city of Cleveland, I would be shocked. Forget that. I would be shocked if one-sixth of their writers and editors lived in Cuyahoga County! I say this based on past writings by them. I don't recall many of them living in Cuyahoga County much less the city of Cleveland.

If true, why is this?

[buckeye1]

This could be merged with the Cleveland perception thread...

[sfbob]

Who freaking cares? I travel all over and have never heard of the slightest hint of Indianapolis and its new branding blah blah blah. Does a town really need to have a slogan or branding to make strides? Cleveland has had more national attention with it's headway becoming a foodie destination than anything Indianapolis has had with their Convention Center expansion, and oh by the way all that type of stuff and more is happening in the Cleve as we speak.