Topic: Cleveland Indians Discussion

[Columbo]

tribe lose Choo, but gain a young speedy outfielder, and the prize of the trade is Trevor Bauer, the 3rd overall pick in the draft a few years back and a major pitching prospect.  Tribe also got two relief pitchers, Shaw and Albers. Experts saying Tribe made out well.

If we sign Swisher and another pitcher, strating lineup should be complete

Good luck with Stubbs.  He's speedy allright.  But the baseball adage of "you can't steal first base" definately applies to him.  Maybe Francona can change his approach at the plate.  Otherwise you'll see bunches of strikeouts.

[bumsquare]

I like the trade. That's quite a haul for 1 year of Choo. Stubbs will at least give us a little depth in the OF, but obviously Bauer was the target.

[Whipjacka]

If stubbs and reynolds are in the lineup together, they will combine for 320 strikeouts with a .213 and .221 average, respectively. The indians batted .250 last year and, in the past week, get rid of one of their good hitters and acquire two hitters hovering around the Mendoza line.  Wait till they trade cabrera for a ham sammich and see how 'complete' this lineup actually is.

I am past the point of believing Dolan is actually interested in creating a good product.

[KJP]

I like some of the pickups in the trade, but I'm with Whipjacka on the offense. Where's the production coming from?

[BelievelandD1]

If stubbs and reynolds are in the lineup together, they will combine for 320 strikeouts with a .213 and .221 average, respectively. The indians batted .250 last year and, in the past week, get rid of one of their good hitters and acquire two hitters hovering around the Mendoza line.  Wait till they trade cabrera for a ham sammich and see how 'complete' this lineup actually is.

I am past the point of believing Dolan is actually interested in creating a good product.

Now, lets be fair.  Sure our front office is horrible...but give Francona the benefit of the doubt.  In 2004 he took guys like Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller and Mark Bellhorn and had them contributing and hitting.  Under other managers, those guys never did anything.  Let Francona work and perhaps he can help Stubbs (a young, coachable guy) hit better.

[Whipjacka]

I would prefer we were in a situation where we didn't need to rely on an unlikely and unexpected turnaround to get any production from our hitters.  sure, they might turn out alright and i'll be proven wrong.
If they don't get people who can put the bat on the ball, it will not matter how good bauer is because three runs a game will be a feat for the lineup.

The tribe may have made out on this particular deal, but, when i look at how this fits into the offseason as a whole, I don't understand going after two strikeout machines this offseason.  also, nobody can convince me they wont deal Cabrera for prospects, making the team even more offensively challenged.

I also wonder if our front office is actually a deterrent to signing talent. Who would want to waste their career on a team that is always rebuilding?

I am, however, obviously biased so my feelings on this trade comes from a pessimistic position.  I don't think the tribe will ever be competitive with Dolan as the owner.

[BelievelandD1]

^i dont think they will get rid of cabrera now.  From what i hear, they wanted Bauer...and theys why cabreras name kept coming up.  Now that we have bauer, i think Acab stays, plus we would have a gaping hole if he left.  I think wesign swisher and get another pitcher and i think our team is better than last year and better managed.

[Clefan98]

^Right on.  We need a right handed bat/outfielder and a starting pitcher.  I'm surprised Perez's name hasn't came up in any trade rumors. 

[Clevelander17]

I'm not bothered by trading Choo (and I wouldn't mind if they unloaded Perez at this point, too).  Neither of these guys were going to be on the team come 2015 when they win the World Series.  I'm also okay with the Mark Reynolds signing, because his OPS is solid, despite the strikeouts.  What I don't like is the pickup of Stubbs, even if he was only a "throw-in."  He is absolutely terrible and I'm not optimistic about him ever improving at his age.  My Cincinnati friends constantly complained about him and most are happy to see him gone.  I'd rather the Tribe put Carrera or some other young prospect in CF.

[KJP]

I like Vinnie Pestano as our closer more. I can't watch Perez pitch. He's way too wild. Trade him.

[Clevelander17]

I like Vinnie Pestano as our closer more. I can't watch Perez pitch. He's way too wild. Trade him.

And saves are overrated, too.  Perez's stock will never be higher.  Makes sense to pawn him off now and get something decent.

[StrapHanger]

I'm sure they're open to trading Perez, but just haven't seen the return they think he's worth.  If not during the off season, likely he'll be traded in July.

Stubbs is not great but by most accounts (and measures) he's a pretty solid defensive center fielder, and if platooned to protect him from certain righty pitchers, he could offer decent production low in the batting order.  I think some of the bad feelings in Cinci were amplified by his drop off from 2010 and his failure to live up to expectations.  Of course he'll only be hitting low in the order if we can find something for DH and RF.  Swisher seems increasingly out of reach, sadly. 

[Hootenany]

^Word on the street is that nobody wants Perez...

[Whipjacka]

who wouldn't want a guy who threw the  fans, the manager, and the font office under the bus in one season?

[StrapHanger]

Wow... I never thought they would actually land Swisher.  Probably an over pay, but not my money    I'm almost afraid to type this, but on paper, the Tribe starting 9 might be above average now, depending on Chis's progression and whatever we end up with at DH.

Still a chance there are more moves ahead to bolster the rotation.  This is definitely the most exciting off season in many years.

[Clevelander17]

Definitely overpaid for Swisher, but I'm okay with the signing because his production has been consistently solid in recent years.

[KJP]

I'm surprised (pleasantly) that he signed with the Tribe.

EDIT: BTW, it's nice to get a free agent FROM the Yankees for a change.

[McLovin]

Definitely overpaid for Swisher, but I'm okay with the signing because his production has been consistently solid in recent years.

You have to overpay in Cleveland In any sport that's just how the sports world works

[Clevelander17]

Definitely overpaid for Swisher, but I'm okay with the signing because his production has been consistently solid in recent years.

You have to overpay in Cleveland In any sport that's just how the sports world works

I don't think that would necessarily be true if any of the franchises were able to establish a winning culture/tradition.  Although at this point, you're probably right.  Though my concern lies with the fact that when this tightwad ownership overpays for a player it really handcuffs the organization, particularly when there may have been other, cheaper ways of getting a similar level of production from RF.

[McLovin]

Definitely overpaid for Swisher, but I'm okay with the signing because his production has been consistently solid in recent years.

You have to overpay in Cleveland In any sport that's just how the sports world works

I don't think that would necessarily be true if any of the franchises were able to establish a winning culture/tradition.  Although at this point, you're probably right.  Though my concern lies with the fact that when this tightwad ownership overpays for a player it really handcuffs the organization, particularly when there may have been other, cheaper ways of getting a similar level of production from RF.

I see what your saying and they probably could of found a cheaper yet just as good alternative, I'm just glad that they are finally spending money. For some reason I feel as though some of this extra money came from the sale of STO but that's my opinion and assumption. My fear is that Nick Swisher will be one of those guys that is productive in previous years but now that he has been paid nicely will be a lot less productive or won't live up to the contract.

[TPH2]

Definitely overpaid for Swisher, but I'm okay with the signing because his production has been consistently solid in recent years.

You have to overpay in Cleveland In any sport that's just how the sports world works

I don't think that would necessarily be true if any of the franchises were able to establish a winning culture/tradition.  Although at this point, you're probably right.  Though my concern lies with the fact that when this tightwad ownership overpays for a player it really handcuffs the organization, particularly when there may have been other, cheaper ways of getting a similar level of production from RF.

I see what your saying and they probably could of found a cheaper yet just as good alternative, I'm just glad that they are finally spending money. For some reason I feel as though some of this extra money came from the sale of STO but that's my opinion and assumption. My fear is that Nick Swisher will be one of those guys that is productive in previous years but now that he has been paid nicely will be a lot less productive or won't live up to the contract.

I have similar concerns about Swisher. I think we'll get a couple solid years out of him, but I worry about those 3rd and 4th years on the contract, which is why the Indians really had preferred only a 3 year contract. Antonetti knows that, which makes it imperative that this team is competitive both this year and next.

[Clevelander17]

I see what your saying and they probably could of found a cheaper yet just as good alternative, I'm just glad that they are finally spending money. For some reason I feel as though some of this extra money came from the sale of STO but that's my opinion and assumption. My fear is that Nick Swisher will be one of those guys that is productive in previous years but now that he has been paid nicely will be a lot less productive or won't live up to the contract.

I have to point this out: The comment that you made (in bold) is eerily similar to what I heard people say when they gave Hafner a big contract a few years back. 

But I will say this, I don't get the impression that motivation will be an issue for Swisher.  He's the type of guy that plays the game the right way and always seem to give his best effort.  My concern with him is that as he continues to age, and particularly as he gets towards the back end of that deal, his skills are going to naturally diminish to the extent that the contract becomes an anchor that to some degree will hold the franchise back.  I think there's some value in the deal in the front end of the contract, but then again, is this team even going to be competing in the next year or two?  In the fickle AL Central, I suppose it's possible, but it's not like the Tigers are getting any worse.

[StrapHanger]

^I agree that Swisher's production is likely to diminish by the end of the contract, but that's no doubt priced into the contract.  The real risk is the sudden collapse that Hafner suffered.  But given the STO deal and new league ESPN contract, I'll bet that Swisher's $15M in 2016 will make up a significantly smaller share of the team's total revenue than Hafner's $13M in 2012, so seems like less of an albatross risk even if things go horribly. 

I'm sure the team is hopeful that it can compete, especially in 2014, but I also think they saw value in the idiosyncracies of this off season** (e.g., no interest from top spending teams for various reasons) and jumped just to lock in the value.  If they decide later the money can be better spent, they could try to flip him next winter or further down the line, even if they have to take a partial loss.  All in all, I'm pretty excited.  I just wish Bretty Myers weren't such an a-hole.

**EDIT: also, the fact that the Indians wouldn't lose a first round draft pick for signing a top FA this particular off-season, unlike other teams, and unlike future years (assuming they play better).

[TPH2]

That Swisher presser really pumped me up for this season. Nice to see a guy so excited to be in Cleveland

[CleveChiNola]

moonloop: Fox Sports purchases STO for an estimated $230 million; will pay Indians $400 million in rights fees over next 10 years
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/12/fox_sports_purchases_sto_for_a.html

[StrapHanger]

What happened to moonloop's post?

I don't know much about FSO, but I assume there will be separate feeds to the NE and SW parts of the state, so neither broadcast will ever pre-empt the other on most TVs.  Will be interesting to see how they deal with Columbus though.  Is there any conventional wisdom about which team is more popular in central Ohio?  Given the population bleed from Cleveland, I'd assume there were more Indians fans (silver lining!!) but I have no idea.

[TPH2]

What happened to moonloop's post?

I don't know much about FSO, but I assume there will be separate feeds to the NE and SW parts of the state, so neither broadcast will ever pre-empt the other on most TVs.  Will be interesting to see how they deal with Columbus though.  Is there any conventional wisdom about which team is more popular in central Ohio?  Given the population bleed from Cleveland, I'd assume there were more Indians fans (silver lining!!) but I have no idea.

I've always heard it was more Indians fans, but only anecdotally from former Clevelanders that live there. Plus, I think that was part of the Indians' goal with signing the minor league agreement with the Clippers a few years back.

[Columbo]

What happened to moonloop's post?

I don't know much about FSO, but I assume there will be separate feeds to the NE and SW parts of the state, so neither broadcast will ever pre-empt the other on most TVs.  Will be interesting to see how they deal with Columbus though.  Is there any conventional wisdom about which team is more popular in central Ohio?  Given the population bleed from Cleveland, I'd assume there were more Indians fans (silver lining!!) but I have no idea.

The moonloop post got deleted by another moderator for being a bit too likely to start a Cleveland-Cincinnati feud.  There's enough discussion to be had without doing that.

To answer your FSO/STO question: I've seen it reported that both the FSO channel and the STO channel would remain on the various cable and satelite systems.  With no word yet about what the new FSO-owned STO channel might be called.  Which would solve any Reds/Indians scheduling conflicts.

They also need to keep both channels for other conflicts.  FSO added Crew games last year, which overlap with Reds and Indians games at times.  And FSO's Cavs broadcasts sometimes conflict with their Blue Jackets broadcasts - at least when the NHL isn't on lockout.

[StrapHanger]

^That makes sense, thanks. To the state the obvious, I guess FSO is a broadcast company, not a "channel" in the old sense, so no reason they can't have multiple slots on cable systems. 

[Whipjacka]

I felt that STO had some major growth potential as being THE station for cleveland sports, but 400 million is a lot of chedda

[TBideon]

So Chris Perez, of all people, apparently helped recruit Swisher. Between that and the remarkable offseason acquisitions by the Dolans, Shapiro, and Antonetti, I don't know who to dislike anymore.

[TPH2]

Random thought. I know the Indians don't have an organized fan club like the Browns Backers, but are there any instances in which Tribe fans that live in other cities organize groups to see them when they come to their town? For example, I'd love to somehow organize Indians fans in the Balt/Wash region to go to the games when the Tribe plays at Camden Yards. Last summer I went to all four games by myself and met a ton of Indians fans, but I think it would be cool to get a group to get together and maybe all sit in the same section or something. Ok, random thought done.

[MyTwoSense]

Random thought. I know the Indians don't have an organized fan club like the Browns Backers, but are there any instances in which Tribe fans that live in other cities organize groups to see them when they come to their town? For example, I'd love to somehow organize Indians fans in the Balt/Wash region to go to the games when the Tribe plays at Camden Yards. Last summer I went to all four games by myself and met a ton of Indians fans, but I think it would be cool to get a group to get together and maybe all sit in the same section or something. Ok, random thought done.

The Browns Backers is the largest fan club in the world, I don't think any team has a fan base like that.  )  Try googling ans seeing what you come up with.

[StrapHanger]

A few years ago I tried googling for Indians watching groups in NYC and came up empty.  There definitely are a lot of active Indians fans in major cities around the country, judging from some of the popular forums out there, so TPH2, if you suggested a meet-up on one of those, you might be able to put something together pretty easily.

[tedders55]

Random thought. I know the Indians don't have an organized fan club like the Browns Backers, but are there any instances in which Tribe fans that live in other cities organize groups to see them when they come to their town? For example, I'd love to somehow organize Indians fans in the Balt/Wash region to go to the games when the Tribe plays at Camden Yards. Last summer I went to all four games by myself and met a ton of Indians fans, but I think it would be cool to get a group to get together and maybe all sit in the same section or something. Ok, random thought done.

The Browns Backers is the largest fan club in the world, I don't think any team has a fan base like that.  )  Try googling ans seeing what you come up with.

I know the Browns have a network of fans unlike pretty much anything else, but there is no way they have a larger fan base than Man United.  Also, googling that makes it seem like the Browns aren't even top 10.  Granted fandom is not an easy thing to measure.