Topic: Greater Cleveland RTA News & Discussion

[StrapHanger]

KJP, forgive me for raising this from long ago, but way back when in the West Shore thread you said:

While I think a Red Line "branch" using the NS line during the day makes a lot of sense, there would still be substantial costs. The NS/RTA track connection itself is probably $10 million+. Catenaries are about $1.5 million per track-mile. Stations would have to be high-level platforms, making them more expensive than low-level ones like what exist along the Blue/Green/Waterfront lines. So if the Tokyu cars are used, high-level platforms are needed and freight trains can't be entirely diverted, then gantlet tracks would be needed to assure lateral clearances for freight trains. My guesstimate for all that was $70 million +/-, and that assumed running the Red Line trains only as far west as the Westlake Park-n-Ride.

Could you sum up why this corridor isn't more highly thought of by RTA or local rail boosters for an extension of the Red Line?  The cost you cite above (and I certainly won't hold you to it) seems to be a bargain for a rail extension into that densely populated an area.  This would seem to make more sense than the blue line extension all the way to Randal Park, no?  Does the existing freight traffic makes it impossible?

[Etheostoma Caeruleum]

Grumpy said: "There has been some talk of extending the Red line into Berea, but that's been just talk so far."
-----
That "talk" is dead. In the late 1990s (before my time), there was a major study about extending the Red Line into Berea and beyond. The residents of that suburb did not want it, and they protested loudly. Any extension would have to be federally funded, and the feds NEVER want to move if they are not wanted. So, say bye-bye to that idea.

FYI, the Red Line now ends under Hopkins Airport, and will never be extended from its present end. If there is a branch, it needs to start somewhere between the Brookpark Station and the start of the Airport tunnel.

Too bad. Anywhere the extension could really be viable and give access to those who do not have it outside the city proper and inner rings...the concept remains a dream. People who rejected it, I am sure a part of their not wanting it is that they  have this fear factor of it being a means of transportation for the unsavory gaining access into their areas...and I can see some of the validity in that as it only takes a few bad seeds to start the concerns of such.....BUT---left alone with no other expansion....the inner city criminal gangs, etc. they fear most, actually DO end up having more access to RTA than people who would like to go to work each day and appreciate the system for what it can offer no matter who they are or where they live.

[Keith]

Grumpy said: "There has been some talk of extending the Red line into Berea, but that's been just talk so far."
-----
That "talk" is dead. In the late 1990s (before my time), there was a major study about extending the Red Line into Berea and beyond. The residents of that suburb did not want it, and they protested loudly. Any extension would have to be federally funded, and the feds NEVER want to move if they are not wanted. So, say bye-bye to that idea.

If I recall correctly there were some rumblings out of Berea in the last couple years about reviving the idea but I don't think it was anything but a few folks (like the new mayor) wishing the idea hadn't been killed.

Also, wasn't half the reason it got killed to begin with because the airport was considering moving the terminal to where the IX center is and no one saw a point in investing in infrastructure if there was a possibility it would need to be changed in a few years anyway?

[KJP]

KJP, forgive me for raising this from long ago, but way back when in the West Shore thread you said:

While I think a Red Line "branch" using the NS line during the day makes a lot of sense, there would still be substantial costs. The NS/RTA track connection itself is probably $10 million+. Catenaries are about $1.5 million per track-mile. Stations would have to be high-level platforms, making them more expensive than low-level ones like what exist along the Blue/Green/Waterfront lines. So if the Tokyu cars are used, high-level platforms are needed and freight trains can't be entirely diverted, then gantlet tracks would be needed to assure lateral clearances for freight trains. My guesstimate for all that was $70 million +/-, and that assumed running the Red Line trains only as far west as the Westlake Park-n-Ride.

Could you sum up why this corridor isn't more highly thought of by RTA or local rail boosters for an extension of the Red Line?  The cost you cite above (and I certainly won't hold you to it) seems to be a bargain for a rail extension into that densely populated an area.  This would seem to make more sense than the blue line extension all the way to Randal Park, no?  Does the existing freight traffic makes it impossible?

The cost above was based on using the existing NS track, which is built to higher standards than any rail transit track because of the weight of freight trains. I proposed that a passing siding be built, such as between Warren and Bunts, so that 20-minute headways between trains could be offered. The electrification would be an extension of the existing CEI powerline along the right of way. I would even ask CEI to help finance the electrification construction from usage revenues from the trains. The question is the existing freight traffic, which is incompatible with RTA's rail vehicles (unlike Amtrak or FRA-compliant commuter trains, a lightweight RTA train would never survive even a low-speed collision with a freight train). A time-of-day separation with freight traffic might be possible as it is done elsewhere. Thus RTA trains could run during the day and the freight at night. Freight traffic that needs to serve the Avon Lake CEI or Ford plants during the day can access them from the west or south -- if the RTA trains go no farther west than Avon/Avon Lake -- ie: SR83. If the RTA trains go west of Avon Lake, then the NS freight access to the Ford and CEI plants would have to come from the south (NS has a branch line from Elyria) and the east-west NS line through Avon Lake would have to have a grade separated crossing with the north-south Ford/CEI access track.

I think RTA is willing to see what the alternatives analysis says. And the fact that RTA is seeking partnerships with transit agencies in adjoining counties may put the West Shore Corridor in a different light for them than just a few years ago. Ultimately, RTA's primary source of revenue -- its county-based sales tax is fading -- is being lost to adjoining counties. And the meaning of a regional transit agency is very different today than it was when RTA was created in 1975. There is significant metropolitan-based travel going across county lines in Greater Cleveland, yet state law establishes that the organizational and funding structures of Ohio transit agencies be county-based. The law needs to be updated, and RTA needs to merge with transit agencies in surrounding counties, and sales taxes for transit need to be passed by voters in those counties (namely Lorain County!).

[JMasek]

RTA has produced a special issue of the Riders Digest customer newsletter that is filled with info on the April 4 service changes. You should see a printed version on all buses and trains by Tuesday. If you want the on-line version, go here:
www.riderta.com/pdf/RidersDigest/Special-2010-RD.pdf

[doctabroccoli]

RTA has produced a special issue of the Riders Digest customer newsletter that is filled with info on the April 4 service changes. You should see a printed version on all buses and trains by Tuesday. If you want the on-line version, go here:
www.riderta.com/pdf/RidersDigest/Special-2010-RD.pdf

Thanks Jerry.  When do you think the new timetables will be posted?

[JMasek]

^^ We expect to start posting new timetables AFTER St. Patrick's Day (there is no reason to confuse new riders). After that date, timetables will be posted as soon as they are ready. We expect to have the bulk of new timetables posted by March 22.

Thanks for asking.

[clvlndr]

Grumpy said: "There has been some talk of extending the Red line into Berea, but that's been just talk so far."
-----
That "talk" is dead. In the late 1990s (before my time), there was a major study about extending the Red Line into Berea and beyond. The residents of that suburb did not want it, and they protested loudly. Any extension would have to be federally funded, and the feds NEVER want to move if they are not wanted. So, say bye-bye to that idea.

FYI, the Red Line now ends under Hopkins Airport, and will never be extended from its present end. If there is a branch, it needs to start somewhere between the Brookpark Station and the start of the Airport tunnel.

Can't blame this one on RTA.  I used to think Berea was one of the more progressive, historic, college town West Side burbs... no more.  RTA carefully studied expansion, but Berea killed it with the tired old close-minded bigoted excuse =traffic congestion around new rail terminal... funny, now, how a number of Bereans are now moaning for an interim stop on the 3-C line.  My answer: to hell with them.

[Keith]

Can't blame this one on RTA. 

Sure I can. I can blame anyone I want. It doesn't make me right, but I still can.

I used to think Berea was one of the more progressive, historic, college town West Side burbs... no more.  RTA carefully studied expansion, but Berea killed it with the tired old close-minded bigoted excuse =traffic congestion around new rail terminal... funny, now, how a number of Bereans are now moaning for an interim stop on the 3-C line.  My answer: to hell with them.

Yeah, a small but vocal portion of Berea residents protested the specific routing, but RTA listened to the protests, agreed to modify the project, and so all the residents of the town are ignorant bigots. So what modified plan did RTA come up with? Did Berea stop RTA from coming up with an idea that didn't involve Front street?

[KJP]

So what modified plan did RTA come up with? Did Berea stop RTA from coming up with an idea that didn't involve Front street?

The modified plan was to get the Red Line out of the airport tunnel and put on an elevated alignment between the new short-term parking garage and the pick-up/drop-off roadways. Surrounding this alignment would be a station and large retail complex. The Red Line would follow the access roads out the south side of the Hopkins terminal area to a station somewhere around the IX Center (can't remember where). But later, Berea's mayor wanted the Red Line extended to the area at the north end of Front Street where two dead car dealerships and some fast food restaurants are located. This was proposed to be redeveloped with hotels, conference centers and a joint Red Line/3C Corridor train station.

Plus..... The old Red Line tunnel would be used for a rail shuttle between the airport and the huge car rental facility area. This line (shaped like U turned counterclockwise 90 degrees) would use a part of the Red Line and serve the Brookpark Rapid station.

[Foraker]

So what is the status of this modified plan?

[KJP]

No one was willing to advocate for it. Not RTA, the cities, the airport nor anyone else. So it died.

[Foraker]

Does anyone know why the RTA trains have to slow down so much on their way to/from downtown over those bridges?  Is it a bridge issue or a rail issue or what?  And if there is a problem, is funding being sought to remedy the situation?

Hey RTA!  JMasek!  Any insights?

[Keith]

No one was willing to advocate for it. Not RTA, the cities, the airport nor anyone else. So it died.

In other words, RTA is incorrect when they say it was Berea's fault that the line never got extended.

[StrapHanger]

^Not if the revised proposal was going to cost a ton more....and it certainly sounded expensive.

Jerry, do you know if RTA includes HealthLine ridership in the total bus ridership it reports to APTA?

[KJP]

In other words, RTA is incorrect when they say it was Berea's fault that the line never got extended.

RTA was prepared to advance their original plan in the mid-1990s -- to extend the Red Line into downtown Berea, and even beyond that to Strongsville. First, there was opposition to crossing through the Metroparks. Then there was opposition to coming into Berea -- including concerns that Strongsville commuters would clog up Berea roads to get to the train! So the route was altered again with two options: ending the line just north of the tracks in the Front-Sheldon area; or extending the Red Line along the then-Conrail (now NS) mainline to Olmsted Falls. If I remember right, neither would have produced enough ridership to warrant the extension. There were lots of other factors, but that's much of what I remember.

[rockandroller]

I will say that concern about clogging the streets in Berea is not unfounded.  At rush hour, the traffic both ways on Bagley road between I-71 and Front Street can be absolutely awful, like 45 minutes to an hour at times just to get a few miles down the street.  And the lines of traffic backing up on Engle are getting longer every year.

[KJP]

Same situation for the Berea Freeway. The soutbound side backs up in the afternoon from Bagley to the IX Center. That should get better after the railroad overpass is done. But perhaps only by half.

The irony was that RTA attempted to address that by putting the rail line into the source of the traffic -- Strongsville. When those opposing the crossing of the Metroparks forced RTA to propose terminating the Red Line in downtown Berea, the transferral of the traffic problem killed any chance of Berea supporting it.

Now traffic is bad everywhere in that area. Life has its little ironies.

[Cleburger]

I'm guessing there were plenty of NIMBYs in Berea as well predicting hordes of urban gangs invading their community if a train from Cleveland ended there (gasp!). 

Many of the opponents of these projects use things like traffic, etc to mask their true feelings about transit riders.

[rockandroller]

The irony was that RTA attempted to address that by putting the rail line into the source of the traffic -- Strongsville.

The majority of the people getting onto the highway are getting on 71 NORTH from Bagley.  Not south.

[327]

The irony was that RTA attempted to address that by putting the rail line into the source of the traffic -- Strongsville.

The majority of the people getting onto the highway are getting on 71 NORTH from Bagley.  Not south.

I think the point is that, in the mornings, there would be less NB traffic already on 71 at Bagley if trains went into Strongsville.  Bereans would wake up to an emptier highway because some of Strongsville's commuters used rail instead.  But that can only happen if the trains can somehow get to Strongsville.

[rockandroller]

But my point is that I don't believe the majority of commuters are coming to or from strongsville; who determined that this is the case?  If people at 5pm are not getting on 71S, they are not from Strongsville.

[Keith]

Yeah, I'm not denying that the NIMBYs played a huge role in killing the Red line extension, but just consider this, when Joe Calabrese was hired in 2000,

• The Red line extension was already unpopular but not dead, RTA decided to let the project die
• A Blue line extension to Chagrin Highlands was in the planning stages, RTA did nothing till Shaker Heights started talking about an extension and even then is studying BRT
• An extension of the Waterfront line was being considered to form a loop, RTA has done nothing
• The Euclid Corridor subway concept had been shot down by NOACA, but a streetcar had not, we ended up with BRT.

Am I the only one that sees a pattern here and thinks that RTA shouldn't be passing the blame to the residents of Berea? In the last decade all these plans have died and instead of more rail we've got busses. Is it any wonder why Jerry has to explain every few months that Joe Calabrese doesn't hate rail? He may not hate it but he sure doesn't seem to think it's better than a bus like most riders do.

Here's a link to the editorial the PD ran when Calabrese was hired.

[Cleburger]

Yeah, I'm not denying that the NIMBYs played a huge role in killing the Red line extension, but just consider this, when Joe Calabrese was hired in 2000,

• The Red line extension was already unpopular but not dead, RTA decided to let the project die
• A Blue line extension to Chagrin Highlands was in the planning stages, RTA did nothing till Shaker Heights started talking about an extension and even then is studying BRT
• An extension of the Waterfront line was being considered to form a loop, RTA has done nothing
• The Euclid Corridor subway concept had been shot down by NOACA, but a streetcar had not, we ended up with BRT.

Am I the only one that sees a pattern here and thinks that RTA shouldn't be passing the blame to the residents of Berea? In the last decade all these plans have died and instead of more rail we've got busses. Is it any wonder why Jerry has to explain every few months that Joe Calabrese doesn't hate rail? He may not hate it but he sure doesn't seem to think it's better than a bus like most riders do.

Here's a link to the editorial the PD ran when Calabrese was hired.

Hey Grump--could not get the link to work--it wanted a password?

[Keith]

^Sorry, It should work now.

[clvlndr]

Yeah, I'm not denying that the NIMBYs played a huge role in killing the Red line extension, but just consider this, when Joe Calabrese was hired in 2000,

• The Red line extension was already unpopular but not dead, RTA decided to let the project die
• A Blue line extension to Chagrin Highlands was in the planning stages, RTA did nothing till Shaker Heights started talking about an extension and even then is studying BRT
• An extension of the Waterfront line was being considered to form a loop, RTA has done nothing
• The Euclid Corridor subway concept had been shot down by NOACA, but a streetcar had not, we ended up with BRT.

Am I the only one that sees a pattern here and thinks that RTA shouldn't be passing the blame to the residents of Berea? In the last decade all these plans have died and instead of more rail we've got busses. Is it any wonder why Jerry has to explain every few months that Joe Calabrese doesn't hate rail? He may not hate it but he sure doesn't seem to think it's better than a bus like most riders do.

Here's a link to the editorial the PD ran when Calabrese was hired.

It's typical of this town to hire a transit chief from a small, bus-only city like Syracuse to run a major bus/rail system like RTA.  Meanwhile, the real chief (Tober) we had that we sent packing, with our typical cheap/small-mindedness, goes to Charlotte to build brand new light rail and commuter rail.  And, of course, as the smal-minded PD notes, we the transit public are supposed be dazzled by penny-ante Calabrese schemes like "ride free or ride on us."  Big friggin' whoop.

Maybe next we can hire Grafton's transit chief.  Sounds like a good fit for Cleveland.

[rockandroller]

The good, the bad and the ugly:

The Good: Kudos to RTA for their "amnesty barrels" (that made me laugh, but it's cute), prominent signage early this week warning people about today's anticipated heavy load, and prominently displayed signs today with the cost of round trip fare, as well as the sign about the waterfront line's schedule today - all very useful and proactive.  Along with the porta potties on public square, this is the most anticipation I've seen by RTA and the city and I like the advance planning.

The Bad: New addition yesterday while waiting for the rapid in Tower City is a really pleasant sounding woman giving information over the loudspeaker....which would be ok, except SHUT UP. She talks almost CONSTANTLY and it's really loud, so it's kind of hard to hear.  Literally in the 10 minutes I was waiting, there wasn't one full minute of silence.  I would rather see better electronic signage for frequent updates than hear someone's blaring voice constantly talking and talking while I wait.  I'm not sure what this is supposed to accomplish?  We have printed schedules, we have an electronic sign giving updates as to when the next train is coming, do we really need this nice but LOUD lady on top of it?

The ugly: see post next page

[tedders55]

The good, the bad and the ugly:


The ugly: This will be this afternoon when I try to leave work.  I'll edit and update my post later.

Thats why you stay downtown and enjoy the atmosphere .  (I know you have a little one to get home too so probably not in the cards.  But it is my solution.)

[327]

It's typical of this town to hire a transit chief from a small, bus-only city like Syracuse to run a major bus/rail system like RTA.  Meanwhile, the real chief (Tober) we had that we sent packing, with our typical cheap/small-mindedness, goes to Charlotte to build brand new light rail and commuter rail.  And, of course, as the smal-minded PD notes, we the transit public are supposed be dazzled by penny-ante Calabrese schemes like "ride free or ride on us."  Big friggin' whoop.

Maybe next we can hire Grafton's transit chief.  Sounds like a good fit for Cleveland.

The blackening of the "2007" on the promotional signs really sealed the deal for me... that act demonstrates not just poor decision-making but dishonesty as well.  And the audio assault from turning buses is an insult to our intelligence.  Nobody believes any such measures would have saved the lady who got run over.  To spend our money on it anyway, in a broad attempt to shift responsibility to pedestrians, is flat-out despicable. 

And it remains to be seen how much utility our bus system will retain once the East and West transit centers are completed.  As far as I can tell, this will create a third leg for crosstown trips that were one-seaters only a few years ago.  Our county is divided enough as it is... we don't need two separate bus systems.  If that truly is the plan, it needs to be stopped immediately.  Maybe the East center, currently under construction, can become "the" center.  But I'm deeply concerned about the proposed two-center solution.  I don't want our downtown to become the land of 1000 awkward bus transfers.

[rockandroller]

The good, the bad and the ugly:


The ugly: This will be this afternoon when I try to leave work.  I'll edit and update my post later.

Thats why you stay downtown and enjoy the atmosphere .  (I know you have a little one to get home too so probably not in the cards.  But it is my solution.)

Totally not in the cards today, AND I am on a little bit of a time crunch.  I cannot leave work today until 5 (I usually leave at 4:30), and I have to be home no later than 6 as I need to truck my stuff down to Medina for the consignment sale - you have a scheduled drop-off time and mine is at 7 tonight.  Not the best night to need to get home in a hurry, but what can you do.