Topic: ODOT Policy Discussion

[seangray]

^^ Yeah it seems they built everything for the suburbs and now that the time has come for some updates to urban interstates suddenly the money is gone.  If the beltways were jammed I'm sure they would be trying to come up with the money.

If truly nothing can be done for another 15-20 years then there are a lot of cheaper improvements that need to be considered.  Already mentioned are some auxiliary lanes and extended exit lanes (for example, I-75S to I-74W, the slowdown for the sharp curve on the ramp causes a backup on I-75).

Some other ideas:
Ramp metering should be added (having lived in Cali and Minn, both places where this is used, it really works) to keep traffic flowing at an efficient pace.

I also think traffic management systems could be used to divert thru traffic to 275.  It only takes about 40 min to go around on 275, the same route on 75 in traffic takes much longer than that.  Just have an overhead sign "I-75 Heavy Traffic, Thru traffic use I-275."

How hard could it be to put in bus only shoulders to encourage some transit ridership?

Or peak hour shoulder lanes with overhead open/closed lane arrows?  This can be done more safely if there is active monitoring.
See

I-94 smart lanes at 25th street in Minneapolis

There are a lot of little things that can be done which would all add up.  $10mil would go a long way.  Certainly a lot more bang for the buck than the $3 billion the rebuild is going to cost. I say they go ahead and cancel Mitchell and use the money for other improvements along the route.

[Sherman Cahal]

My suggestions which I made at the public meetings included:

* Consolidated interchanges. Remove unnecessary ramps (pretty much what is being done now) and consolidate interchanges by improving capacity in the upgraded remaining access points.
* Acceleration/deceleration lanes that function as collector/distributor ramps. There is no need to have a 1500' merge lane that forces slower moving traffic into faster moving traffic. Just keep it going until the next interchange if feasible.
* Rework the Interstate 74 interchange into one that is higher capacity (what is currently being planned) and remove the Spring Grove ramps (currently being planned).
* Remove the awkward and unsafe left-hand ramps - like in the current design, and replace the Western Hills interchange. Unsure on the latter, since that is in coordination with the Brent Spence project and the DOTE/Western Hills Viaduct project.

etc. I would say that is more than a $10 million project, but it would eliminate the need for a continuous fourth lane.

[taestell]

They should move forward interchange-by-interchange making the necessary safety improvements, but without adding the extra lane to I-75.  New overpasses should be build to the current plan's specifications, however, so that if they find funding to add the extra lane in 10 years, all of the rebuilt overpasses and interchanges will allow for that.

[jmecklenborg]

^It's not that easy because part of the plan involved shifting the whole highway temporarily to allow the various lumps in the roadway to be regraded.  When the Covington cut was rebuilt in the early 90's, I remember them building basically a temporary I-75 parallel to the existing one to allow regrading (that's why the whole cut is so huge and odd-looking today).  This is on a smaller scale, but it's the somewhat erratic rises and falls of the old Millcreek Expressway that cause some of the safety problems.  You really notice it between Mitchell and the Lateral. 

[noozer]

Front-page - above the fold in today's Sunday Dispatch: the "Big D" moans about the costs of delaying highway projects and never mentions how the current administration scuttled the 3C passenger rail project and has cut funding for mass transit and bike/ped projects....all of which can help relieve the need for new capacity on our highways and reduce the costs of getting around for all Ohioans by increasing their mobility options.

The Dispatch supported Kasich / Wray's transportation decisions editorially by criticizing the 3C project and knocking streetcar projects in Columbus & Cincy in the past.  But now they cry because a highway project is delayed.

State’s roadwork delay will cost drivers
State’s braking on road projects will cost drivers in crashes, wasted gas in traffic
By  Robert Vitale
The Columbus Dispatch Sunday January 22, 2012 7:33 AM

State government will spend less money in the short term by taking four times as long to rebuild overburdened highways in central Ohio.

You, however, will pay. Drivers will lose more time, waste more gas and face more hazards in coming years because the Ohio Department of Transportation is pushing back more than $840 million in roadwork that’s scheduled for the region.

What ODOT had planned to tackle between 2014 and 2016   now is to start in 2019 and at dates as far off as 2033.

Read more at: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/01/22/states-roadwork-delay-will-cost-drivers.html

[BuckeyeB]

What buttheads at the Dispatch. If they wonder why things are as bad as they are, they need only to look in the mirror at themselves! They should have seen this coming, but no. They could have helped with the questions concerning the 3C debate, Columbus streetcar and any number of other issues, but again, no. All they cared about was doing whatever it took to make sure more Republicans were elected and that the "highway-uber-alles" continuum remained firmly in place, no matter that such stances might hurt the state.

A Bronx cheer to you, Dispatch!!! Bwaaaa!!! 

[westerninterloper]

The answer might be in this recent Toledo Blade article, about how the new ODOT austerity might, **just might** be a political ploy to pressure Northern Ohio (where most of the cuts are, hint hint) into supporting the Turnpike privatization. Note how the projected highway shortfall and possible $$ gained from a turnpike deal are just about the same.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Politics/2012/01/21/Kasich-denies-turnpike-lease-ploy.html
Kasich denies turnpike-lease ploy
Critics say shelving of projects was effort to push for privatization
COLUMBUS -- Gov. John Kasich insisted Friday that this week's proposed shelving of high-profile transportation projects such as the I-75/I-475 interchange overhaul in Toledo was not an effort to increase public pressure for leveraging the Ohio Turnpike for cash.

"For many, many governors' terms, Ohioans have been misled, plain and simple: 'You want a project, we'll get you a project. Don't worry about it,' " Mr. Kasich said. "Well, we're $1.6 billion short. … No more misleading people about this."

...

But State Rep. Teresa Fedor (D., Toledo) said a back-door campaign to promote turnpike privatization is the only way she can explain how the transportation department's financial forecast darkened dramatically just a year after the state adopted a plan that included funding to build the McCord railroad underpass. The projects being delayed disproportionately hurt northern Ohio, where resistance to a possible turnpike lease has been strongest, she said.

"It wasn't the mismanagement of previous administrations," she said Friday. "It's the desire of this administration to sell our public assets. … The northern end of Ohio gets the short end of the stick. There's no other conclusion. We're being held hostage, and he's got us where he wants us."

[Cleburger]

If there is a shred of truth to this Kasich should be run out of town.  He is not only playing with the economic viability of the Cleveland region, but also the health and safety of some 120,000 motorists a day using the 50 year old bridge.   

[KJP]

ODOT has been fiscal crisis for a LONG time. The crisis wasn't created to privatize the Turnpike. Instead, the crisis was acknowledged by ODOT to get the Turnpike privatized.

[gottaplan]

so why did the previous administrations all keep the secret that they had a ballooning project list and shrinking budget based on the funding formula....

[Sherman Cahal]

The Highway Trust Fund wasn't tits up until 2008. A proposal in 2005 would have raised the federal gasoline tax and pegged it to inflation, similar to what Kentucky does for their state tax, which would fund highway transportation projects. It's why some states, like Kentucky, can afford to continue on with their funded projects and plan out projects many years in advance, whereas Ohio has had projects stalled for decades for lack of funding.

[GCrites80s]

Kentucky isn't in denial about a lot of things that Ohio is. For being a "more conservative" state, they sure have made a lot of progressive decisions.

[jmecklenborg]

>so why did the previous administrations all keep the secret that they had a ballooning project list and shrinking budget based on the funding formula....

There was no secret.  They had a powerpoint on the looming crisis at last April's TRAC meeting and the Cincinnati media simply couldn't understand it.  Everything we talk about routinely on this site is entirely unknown to the Cincinnati media.

[KJP]

Correct. It wasn't a secret. It just wasn't broadcast by ODOT until it was convenient for them to do so.

Under former ODOT Director Jolene Molitoris, her testimony in 2009 to the Ohio Senate Transportation Committee underscored that ODOT was facing a $3 billion shortfall at the middle range of then-known scenarios. I don't remember what the worst-case scenario was, but I guarantee you it did not acknowledge that driving would continue to decline, that young people would continue to be so disinterested in drive-everywhere lifestyles, and that such disinterest would not compensate for the reduction in driving after all those Baby Boomer retirement parties.

And ODOT still hasn't acknowledged those realities. If it did, it would realize just how deep of a hole it's about to fall into. As many of you know, I don't like to make predictions, but I'll make one now..... Within 10 years, there will be an Interstate highway or interstate-standard state highway that is closed to traffic because ODOT can't afford to maintain it. This may be a short urban highway segment with a large, aging bridge on it, or it may be a rural four-lane divided highway with little traffic on it. But it will close. If ODOT privatizes the Turnpike, then postpone that prediction by another 5-10 years and then add a few more highways to it.

[Cleburger]

Kentucky isn't in denial about a lot of things that Ohio is. For being a "more conservative" state, they sure have made a lot of progressive decisions.

I still shake my head at the conservative argument against spending on ANYTHING.   Spending on roads, bridges, rail etc are the kind of investments that keeps Ohio growing and moving.   I'd hardly call it wasteful.

[Boreas]

The conservatives who wrote the "State and Local Government" political science textbook I read acknowledged that transportation spending did have a positive return in tax receipts. 
Ohio has a competent government until term limits burned out the talent in the legislature in the 1990s.  Now we have a bunch of small town lawyers running the state.

[jjakucyk]

The conservatives who wrote the "State and Local Government" political science textbook I read acknowledged that transportation spending did have a positive return in tax receipts.

Acknowledged or assumed?  Based on what I've seen I highly doubt that's true, especially in the long term. 

[jmecklenborg]

>I still shake my head at the conservative argument against spending on ANYTHING.   Spending on roads, bridges, rail etc are the kind of investments that keeps Ohio growing and moving.   I'd hardly call it wasteful.

A topic we never hit on this site is the inland waterways.  My dad lobbies for the industry and all infrastructure on dams, dredging, etc. is technically an "earmark", and as such, there has been virtually zero allocations to major or minor projects for ten years.

The situation is getting so desperate that the industry has proposed to Congress to pay a toll to travel through locks in order to get a dedicated revenue stream above the marine fuel tax.  There are many small operations that use marine fuel but don't actually travel through the locks with any frequency, so on the surface that seems fair, but obviously none of those businesses would be operating if the commercial vessels couldn't travel the length of the rivers year-round. 

How much money does the industry need?  It's under $1 billion/year (the current budget is $450~ year).  So we have this incredible asset - the envy of the world - that is not being fully utilized so that Republicans can say they didn't vote for any earmarks. 
 

[KJP]

Jake, How is Congress' response to adding user fees for passing through the locks? There could also be a fee for entering navigable waterways from the Great Lakes, such as the Cuyahoga, Black and Maumee rivers. The bulkheads on some of these waterways are failing and, at least for the Cuyahoga, the repair cost is astronomical. The Cuyahoga River bulkheads repair cost alone is $200 million!

And ODOT didn't even have a water division until a couple of years ago.

[unusualfire]

We have decades worth of Infrastructure to fix. Too bad we are over our credit limit. No easy way to accomplish everything that needs to be done without massive inflation from printing cash.

[GCrites80s]

I always thought being able to go through a lock for free was kind of strange considering how much it costs to fill or drain one each time. When I was younger, I thought it would be funny to ride up to a lock on a jet ski, get 'em to open it up, lock through, then turn around and make 'em do it again. Apparently it doesn't work that way, though.

[jmecklenborg]

>Jake, How is Congress' response to adding user fees for passing through the locks?

I don't know, they are in preliminary talks.  I don't know what the fee would be based on either -- number of barges, tonnage, etc.  In smaller locks a towboat has to break its tow, and go through twice, so does that mean paying more?  I don't know.  The situation has caused shipping companies to stop funding Republican campaigns.  There is a lot of tension over how the Army Corps of Engineers administers these projects, since there are cases where contracters have to re-bid every single calander year for huge multi-year projects, like the big Olmstead lock & dam near Paducah, which is replacing two 100 year-old "temporary" dams.   


In other news, Seattle has started tolling an existing bridge:

http://www.geekwire.com/2012/why-im-actually-happy-about-the-520-tolls

[Sherman Cahal]

Those weren't temporary dams. Those were wicket dams that were once commonplace on the Ohio River. The first "super dam" (as it was then called) was the Greenup Locks and Dam - with construction beginning in 1954 and ending in 1959. It features a main 1,200'x110' lock and a 600'x110' lock. That dam, like all of the others on the Ohio, are not there for flood control - and the length between each dam is now around 60 miles instead of 10-30 miles. It replaced Lock and Dam Nos. 27, 28, 29, and 30, and the Big Sandy Lock and Dam No. 1.

Locks and Dam Nos. 52 and 53, at MP 939 and 962, are being replaced with Olmstead at MP 964. The closest dam on the Ohio is Smithland at MP 918.

The original wicket dams were wooden. But during the 1940s, when steamboats were being phased out, diesel towboats began towing barge strings longer than 600 feet in length, which required them to be broken up into 2 or more segments at a wicket dam. That led to the construction of the new "super dams."

[KJP]

Dam.... That's some detailed information!

[Sherman Cahal]

heh

I've started documenting the old wicket dams along the Ohio River. Some of the keeper's houses and structures, such as at Chilo, Ohio, are intact and preserved. Others, like at Catlettsburg, Kentucky, are long gone. Some are abandoned (Vanceburg, Kentucky). The Big Sandy No. 1 is gone, although I recently came across a proposal from 1984 that called for the damming of the river as far south as Williamson, West Virginia at a cost of $2 billion - back then. I think I scanned it in. Of course, the AOCE didn't sign off on it because of the cost versus maintaining the existing railroad lines that paralleled the river.

The Kentucky River had 14 locks and dams from the Ohio River south to Beattyville. Only 4 remain in operation and the others are either abandoned or now function as pools for city water supplies. The Green River had a network as well, although I think just one is in operation.

The Kentucky River dams were interesting in that they were wooden structures, and when they were rebuilt in the 1910s, were encased in concrete. They never bothered to remove the old timbers!

I grew up right down the road from the Greenup dam, and pre-2001, I would enjoy my trips to the observation platform in the middle of the dam to watch the boats pass through. When it flooded, it was an even better site. People always complained when the river would flood, and the AOCE would have to release prepared statements (the same from the 1960s) that said the dam was not a flood prevention structure, etc. Always humorous to read.

[GCrites80s]

They've got some of those wooden dam sections sitting in the park at the Hannibal Locks and Dam in Monroe county.

[jmecklenborg]

Here is a good article describing what the situation is with the Olmsted Lock & Dam.  Incredibly, this thing has already been under construction for 20 years:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20111022/NEWS01/310220080/Olmsted-Dam-project-considered-essential-river-traffic

[unusualfire]

If someone starts a non profit business to build these things. Then maybe we can be saved.

[KJP]

The article on the Congressional reauthorization of the federal surface transportation law was moved to:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7852.0.html

[KJP]

This may impact state transportation policy-making by affecting one of the policy-makers. Tom Patton of Strongsville is chair of the Ohio Senate Highways & Transportation Committee....

Jimmy Dimora trial: Former Parma school board member J. Kevin Kelley testifies he received bribe from state senator, who denies the claim
Published: Thursday, February 02, 2012, 8:02 PM     Updated: Friday, February 03, 2012, 4:02 AM
 By John Caniglia, The Plain Dealer

AKRON, Ohio -- Former Parma School Board member J. Kevin Kelley testified Thursday that he accepted a $10,000 bribe from Ohio Sen. Tom Patton in connection with a school district copier contract.

Patton, who is Kelley's third cousin, works as a consultant for a Blue Technologies, a copier firm that did more than $489,000 in business with the district from 2001 to 2008, according to school vendor records.

Kelley testified that the company initially had the low bid on the contract, but that he received the bribe after the school board continued to award the contract to the company without new bids.

READ MORE AT:
http://www.cleveland.com/countyincrisis/index.ssf/2012/02/dimora_trial_j_kevin_kelley_te.html

[Cleburger]

Someone tell Governor Kasich that the Innerbelt Bridge might need to be bumped up on the list....


Trucks on federal highways could soon be heavier

FORT WORTH, Texas -- Drivers could share the highways with much heavier trucks if Congress decides that the efficiencies of larger loads trump concerns about road damage and safety.
The Safe and Efficient Transportation Act would raise the maximum weight for commercial trucks that routinely travel on highways to 97,000 pounds in most states.
The current threshold in most places is 80,000 pounds unless the truck has a permit to be overweight.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/02/trucks_on_federal_highways_cou.html

[KJP]

Someone tell Governor Kasich that the Innerbelt Bridge might need to be bumped up on the list....


Trucks on federal highways could soon be heavier

FORT WORTH, Texas -- Drivers could share the highways with much heavier trucks if Congress decides that the efficiencies of larger loads trump concerns about road damage and safety.
The Safe and Efficient Transportation Act would raise the maximum weight for commercial trucks that routinely travel on highways to 97,000 pounds in most states.
The current threshold in most places is 80,000 pounds unless the truck has a permit to be overweight.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/02/trucks_on_federal_highways_cou.html

Two problems with this post:

1. It's in the wrong place as it is a federal transportation policy. It belongs here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7852.0.html
2. Under pressure from the railroad industry and some who saw road/bridge maintenance issues, the heavier trucks provision was removed from the House bill so the USDOT could "study" it for the next two years.

[Cleburger]

Someone tell Governor Kasich that the Innerbelt Bridge might need to be bumped up on the list....


Trucks on federal highways could soon be heavier

FORT WORTH, Texas -- Drivers could share the highways with much heavier trucks if Congress decides that the efficiencies of larger loads trump concerns about road damage and safety.
The Safe and Efficient Transportation Act would raise the maximum weight for commercial trucks that routinely travel on highways to 97,000 pounds in most states.
The current threshold in most places is 80,000 pounds unless the truck has a permit to be overweight.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/02/trucks_on_federal_highways_cou.html

Two problems with this post:

1. It's in the wrong place as it is a federal transportation policy. It belongs here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7852.0.html
2. Under pressure from the railroad industry and some who saw road/bridge maintenance issues, the heavier trucks provision was removed from the House bill so the USDOT could "study" it for the next two years.

Understood--just making conversation.  Besides, if that Federal policy were mandated, it WOULD be a problem for our poor ole' innerbelt bridge!

[noozer]

Link to the All Sides with Ann Fisher Show on "Ohio's Transportation Funding Crisis".......well worth your time listening...


http://beta.wosu.org/allsides/transportation-funding-crisis-in-ohio-2/

[treesketcher]

^Thanks for posting.  My takeaway: we are so sad we are broke, we need alternatives to a highway only system, and we have no ideas for a better funding system other than 3P's. 

No one had the cajones to say that we turned down $400,000,000 to help alleviate all three of those issues.