Northeast Ohio: Regionalism News & Discussion

[the pope]

this is why we need express rail in the city.

Getting to shaker heights or cleveland hts via public transportation from downtown is quick and easy!

seriously, I have no problems getting downtown.

And why on earth would anyone want to go twinsburg anyway? (the irony of this sentence in this thread is not lost on me)

More/Wider Roads is never a solution. Mayfield Planned themselves into that mess, so why should ODOT bail them out with a crazy six lane solution? (insert reference to study that mentions for every one lane you add, congestion also rises 9%)

[jpop]

The last thing that I want is larger freeways in Ohio! I'm not trying to put shs's comment down, but in my opinion, in order for Cleveland to truly be a progressive region, I think putting a greater emphasis on cars as transportation would be the wrong direction. I'm all for expansion of mass transit and encouraging that somehow rather than growing our dependence on cars.

I'm even thinking along the lines of pollution increasing, etc. Isn't that already a problem in Cleveland?

[gotribe]

I think you should be able to keep your receipts for the bus and get a tax break for using it.

[MayDay]

"More/Wider Roads is never a solution. Mayfield Planned themselves into that mess, so why should ODOT bail them out with a crazy six lane solution? (insert reference to study that mentions for every one lane you add, congestion also rises 9%)"

I forget who said it, but it reminds me of the quote "adding lanes to highways to ease congestion is like loosening your belt to fight obesity". Sorry folks, getting around Greater Cleveland is shamefully easy compared to other cities our size (and laughable when you compare us to larger areas). shs, they once proposed making access to Shaker Heights/Cleveland Heights easier - they would have blown highways right through areas like the Shaker Lakes, Coventry, etc. So you could get there faster via highway, but if the only thing there is a six-lane swath of asphalt, why would you want to go? Again, it's like I've said - you have ample parking and easy highway access or you have the healthy vibrant neighborhoods - those are mutually exclusive, you cannot have both.

"I think you should be able to keep your receipts for the bus and get a tax break for using it."

A lot of companies offer some kind of flexible spending account for doing just that. I believe RTA has a matching program as well.

[X]

shs, trust me, once you start living Downtown, you will begin to see everything within Downtown as walkable.  "Walking distance" just gets larger as you walk more.  Really nothing Downtown is more than a 20 minute walk- and thats to the extreme edges, like CSU or the Flats.  Also, once you realize the ease of walking around a neighborhood built for it, you'll realize what a pain in the butt fighting through traffic in a car is.  I used to drive everywhere (had to), but after a while living in walkable neighborhoods I hate driving, except on country roads.

[shs96]

So are you saying you want to encourage urban sprawl?

No, I'm saying as long as the area is divided by inability to travel easily among the region, it will always remain divided.  I want the neighborhoods and feel of each town to stay; I want it to be easier to travel between them.

[jpop]

I'm with you! I totally agree, and I think that's a key to regionalism .. I just would prefer to do it in another way than expanding our highway system.

[shs96]

shs, trust me, once you start living Downtown, you will begin to see everything within Downtown as walkable.  "Walking distance" just gets larger as you walk more.  Really nothing Downtown is more than a 20 minute walk- and thats to the extreme edges, like CSU or the Flats.  Also, once you realize the ease of walking around a neighborhood built for it, you'll realize what a pain in the butt fighting through traffic in a car is.  I used to drive everywhere (had to), but after a while living in walkable neighborhoods I hate driving, except on country roads.

I don't mind walking anywhere on a nice day; trekking through the snow or rain for 20 minutes doesn' sound fun. 

Example:  Opening Day of the Indians (remember: heavy snow).  Getting to my friend's apt on West 9th was easy.  Getting to the stadium was not fun.

Light rail across town; make one street deisgnated public transport only - something to improve traffic flow in the city.  That was my point.

[the pope]

Traffic flow for who? I feel like you are leaning towards more lanes and roads to make it easier for joe isuzu so he can get out to buy his popcorn ball in chagrin falls 5 minutes faster.

[shs96]

Traffic flow for who? I feel like you are leaning towards more lanes and roads to make it easier for joe isuzu so he can get out to buy his popcorn ball in chagrin falls 5 minutes faster.

Well, if you want the folks of Chagrin to support regionalism, you're going to have to make them feel like a part of the region.  And if it's a big hassle for them to get down to Farhenhite or Cleveland Chop House, they'll keep going to Blake's and Gamekeepers and continue to live their American Dream in the glass bubble that is Chagrin Falls.

[KJP]

Like others have said, this region is very easy to drive in. We just don't have the traffic of other cities (ie: Dallas). The problem is for people who don't have cars, or for households that have just one car. In the city of Cleveland, 25 percent of all households have no car, and 40 percent with just one car. How many of those are reliable?? So if the car isn't working, being repaired, or being used by one member of the family, the household becomes a no-car family. Without fast, regional transit, the majority of households in Cleveland can be isolated from the rest of the region (including new jobs, most of which are in the suburbs).

Another reason not to emphasize highways is that, in Cuyahoga County, 86-95 percent of ozone precursors are created by mobile sources, and most of those are cars. The percentages from mobile sources are higher in Cuyahoga County than for the average urban area, according to the EPA. Cuyahoga County is already in EPA noncompliance when it comes to air quality standards, and tougher standards are due to go into effect in 2009. Those cities which fail to meet the EPA standards could have their federal highway funding restricted.

Furthermore, manufacturers are staying away building new plants or expanding old ones in non-attainment counties because of the added EPA red tape and costs of complying with the EPA standards -- even though cars are responsible for most of the pollution.

It's an vicious circle -- the only place where you will likely see new, low-skill manufacturing jobs is in rural areas that can't be reached by the largest available labor pool: low-income inner city residents. Why? Because they don't have cars. Why aren't the manufacturing jobs being added to their inner-city neighborhoods that they can reach with existing transit? Because there's too many cars that spew too much pollution.

Please, let's not increase VMTs (vehicle-miles traveled - the standard measurement of traffic) Cuyahoga County.

[MayDay]

"you're going to have to make them feel like a part of the region."

They're part of it whether they like it or not. They've been catered to already with the highways that exist. The onus is NOT on the city to demolish itself further and widen streets just so people from Chagrin (and whatnot) who stop in for a meal in Tremont once every six months have an easier trip than they already do. Sorry, but anyone who thinks Clevelanders have a hard time driving from A to B needs to talk to people in Chicago, DC, and NYC. Again, this region is pathetically easy to navigate by car (even the areas like the Heights where there's a little hassle) and any suggestion otherwise is downright disingenuous.

If you think better highway access is the answer, you really need to develop an understanding of what auto-centric planning does to neighborhoods. And I repeat, you either have thriving/vibrant neighborhoods or you have easy access and parking for cars. You can not have them both.

In no way am I suggesting you're ignorant as your posts are well-worded, but quite frankly you just don't get it.

[the pope]

Just to emphasize the impacts of "reaching out" Chagrin Falls (without potentially jumping on anyone).

If Chagrin Falls Residents magically got better highway access, they would effectively plow over Half of Shaker Heights, all of the Shaker Lakes, Cut through Cleveland Heights, destroy coventry village and fairmount, plow the projects at 55 & woodland, maybe part of slavic village.

Or for a real life case study, just look at every FHA built highway in this country.

[MyTwoSense]

Lets thank our lucky stars that the majority of Cleveland Heights & Shaker heights are protected and no highway will be built.

[audidave]

There needs to be some differentiation between widening roads to accompany sprawl vs. widening highways to improve intercity transportation.  For example, back in the old days there was canal traffic between Akron and Cleveland, then trains.  That is how Akron grew.  Well there is no train traffic now.  Thats been replaced with I-77 and sort of 271-rt 8.  I-77 is a major interstate that happens to go through Akron.  Why continue to restrict travel between the 2 largest cities in Northeast Ohio to 2 lanes each direction?  Its not like 77 and 271 are empty most of their path before they get to Summit Co.  Also, I don't see a serious commuter train line coming back between the 2 cities any time soon.  So why not increase access and add a lane?

[Mov2Ohio]

Plus, All the burbs between Cleveland Heights and Bedford are served by avenues, some of which are fairly wide, but most/ all the avenues go from the burbs to Downtown. Sure it takes longer than a freeway would with all the red lights, but the access along Euclid, Superior, Monticello, Mayfield, Cedar, Fairmount, Shaker, Buckeye, Woodland, Brodway, Harvard and Miles serves the "landlocked" burbs pretty well and does it without ripping up a neighborhood's integrity for the likes of Geauga County.

[Florida Guy]

 

[MayDay]

^Because the region's existing infrastructure needs funding more than 77 needs additional lanes. Ask Minneapolis if they'd rather have an additional lane on a highway.

[jpop]

That's hilarious.

[Mov2Ohio]

There needs to be some differentiation between widening roads to accompany sprawl vs. widening highways to improve intercity transportation.  For example, back in the old days there was canal traffic between Akron and Cleveland, then trains.  That is how Akron grew.  Well there is no train traffic now.  Thats been replaced with I-77 and sort of 271-rt 8.  I-77 is a major interstate that happens to go through Akron.  Why continue to restrict travel between the 2 largest cities in Northeast Ohio to 2 lanes each direction?  Its not like 77 and 271 are empty most of their path before they get to Summit Co.  Also, I don't see a serious commuter train line coming back between the 2 cities any time soon.  So why not increase access and add a lane?

Adding a lane on I-77 is nearly completely different then destroying Shaker Heights for I-290 or whatever it was to be called.

Aren't they adding a lane already?

[cle2032]

We don't have traffic in this city!  Really we DON'T!  Once in a blue moon there's traffic but even during a huge blizzard in the middle of rush hour right before Xmas a few years ago, it only took me 1.25 hours to get to B'wick from downtown.  It takes 1.25 hrs to get for the Loop to O'hare just about everyday during rush hour-in sunny weather! 

Anyways,  I like Mayday's diet analogy.  If your pants are tight, exercise and watch what you eat--that's the longterm but HEALTHY solution.  Don't buy bigger sizes and take the EASY way out which will lead to more problems in the end.  You'll end up looking like sh*t! 

Also, people out in Lake, Lorain, Ashtabula, BFE counties realize they're not a hop, skip, and a jump to downtown.  We need better public transportation to not only preserve, but allow the central core to grow and provide a high quality of life for its citizens--not to make a 50 min. commute a 35 min. commute. 

One more thing...I love how the 'experts' predict gridlock/ LA style traffic by 2030 for the area yet are predicting Cleveland proper to have a population of 432 people (or some ridiculous number like that)...   I guess Cleveland will be to Westlake/Avon what Gary is to Chicago?! Give me a break! 

[audidave]

OK, I found some Noaca report that listed how they are widening I-77 to 3 lanes each down to the turnpike starting in 08 and going into 09.  That works for me.  I'm sure Summit Co. will complete their 7 mile stretch by 2010 since most of the bridges are now configured for this.

[cle2032]

That ODOT picture is scary!  I'd rather have them burn $1 billion than waste it building that! 

[KJP]

I-77 will be widened, as Audidave mentioned. And SR8 will be rebuilt to Interstate standards between SR303 and I-271 (including conversion of the intersections with Boston Mills Road, Hines Hill Road, Twinsburg Road and Highland Road into interchanges). The latter project has been proposed since the 1960s.

So, just like rail projects, highway projects don't happen overnight either. After the SR8 rebuilding and I-77 widening south from Pleasant Valley to the Ohio Turnpike, it's tough to say whether additional widenings can be afforded. The federal highway trust fund will go bankrupt absent additional funding (higher gas taxes, more use of tolls, more privatization, etc). ODOT is also facing a budget crunch, not only because they rely on federal gas taxes, but because of higher construction costs (fuel, asphalt, steel etc). There may be an increase in the state gas tax, too. And, as part of the federal/state revenue enhancements, there is a great deal of discussion of including rail/transit in the increased mix of funding.

[shs96]

"you're going to have to make them feel like a part of the region."

They're part of it whether they like it or not.... They've been catered to already with the highways that exist. The onus is NOT on the city to demolish itself further and widen streets just so people from Chagrin (and whatnot) who stop in for a meal in Tremont once every six months have an easier trip than they already do. Sorry, but anyone who thinks Clevelanders have a hard time driving from A to B needs to talk to people in Chicago, DC, and NYC. Again, this region is pathetically easy to navigate by car (even the areas like the Heights where there's a little hassle) and any suggestion otherwise is downright disingenuous.

If you think better highway access is the answer, you really need to develop an understanding of what auto-centric planning does to neighborhoods. And I repeat, you either have thriving/vibrant neighborhoods or you have easy access and parking for cars. You can not have them both.

In no way am I suggesting you're ignorant as your posts are well-worded, but quite frankly you just don't get it.

OK...lots of digs on upper class suburbs, not only in this thread, but on the whole forum (why would anyone wnat to go to Twinsburg?).  Essentially what I am reading is we hate the antiseptic suburbs, we don't care if they utilize (or is convienent to utilize) any of Cleveland Proper's assets, but we want their money to help support the region and make the region as a whole better - it's in their best interest". 

Those are great selling points.  And you wonder why they want nothing to do with Cleveland. 

Anyway...I lived in Dallas for 6 years.  It was easier to drive around that town than it is to drive around Cleveland, plain and simple - and the population is 4 times what it is here.  I'm not suggesting that a highway is built through the Heights to make it easier to get between Changrin Falls and downtown, I'm saying the "major roadways" that currently exist need to not have portions that trim down to one lane.  If I want to go from Highland Hills to downtown and not get on 480 or 77, I want a little better road infastructure than going Rt 8/VanAken/Shaker/Buckeye/Woodland.  I want those roads to remain the same, but I want more turning lanes, to maintain two lanes the entire way through and not have to worry about cars parked on the street.  I don't want more highways, I want better highways.

You don't want cars?  I don't either.  I love going to NYC.  Outside of a cab from LGA, I don't use a car the whole time.  I love being in Europe.  I can walk off a plane and get anywhere on the Continent in a vastly more dense population area A LOT easier than I can here in Cleveland.  I'd love it if it was that way.  But what is more realistic?  Building an extensive subway/light rail system throughout NE Ohio or fixing up the existing transit infastructure?

And where are you driving that you think we don't have traffic?  480 was a parking lot this morning.  271 south can get crammed.  That dead man's curve place?  Awesome!  90 westbound from downtown?  All of those highways would be better off if there were alternative routes to go.

[musky]

[MyTwoSense]

"you're going to have to make them feel like a part of the region."

They're part of it whether they like it or not.... They've been catered to already with the highways that exist. The onus is NOT on the city to demolish itself further and widen streets just so people from Chagrin (and whatnot) who stop in for a meal in Tremont once every six months have an easier trip than they already do. Sorry, but anyone who thinks Clevelanders have a hard time driving from A to B needs to talk to people in Chicago, DC, and NYC. Again, this region is pathetically easy to navigate by car (even the areas like the Heights where there's a little hassle) and any suggestion otherwise is downright disingenuous.

If you think better highway access is the answer, you really need to develop an understanding of what auto-centric planning does to neighborhoods. And I repeat, you either have thriving/vibrant neighborhoods or you have easy access and parking for cars. You can not have them both.

In no way am I suggesting you're ignorant as your posts are well-worded, but quite frankly you just don't get it.

OK...lots of digs on upper class suburbs, not only in this thread, but on the whole forum (why would anyone wnat to go to Twinsburg?).  Essentially what I am reading is we hate the antiseptic suburbs, we don't care if they utilize (or is convienent to utilize) any of Cleveland Proper's assets, but we want their money to help support the region and make the region as a whole better - it's in their best interest". 

Those are great selling points.  And you wonder why they want nothing to do with Cleveland. 

Anyway...I lived in Dallas for 6 years.  It was easier to drive around that town than it is to drive around Cleveland, plain and simple - and the population is 4 times what it is here.  I'm not suggesting that a highway is built through the Heights to make it easier to get between Changrin Falls and downtown, I'm saying the "major roadways" that currently exist need to not have portions that trim down to one lane.  If I want to go from Highland Hills to downtown and not get on 480 or 77, I want a little better road infastructure than going Rt 8/VanAken/Shaker/Buckeye/Woodland.  I want those roads to remain the same, but I want more turning lanes, to maintain two lanes the entire way through and not have to worry about cars parked on the street.  I don't want more highways, I want better highways.

You don't want cars?  I don't either.  I love going to NYC.  Outside of a cab from LGA, I don't use a car the whole time.  I love being in Europe.  I can walk off a plane and get anywhere on the Continent in a vastly more dense population area A LOT easier than I can here in Cleveland.  I'd love it if it was that way.  But what is more realistic?  Building an extensive subway/light rail system throughout NE Ohio or fixing up the existing transit infastructure?

And where are you driving that you think we don't have traffic?  480 was a parking lot this morning.  271 south can get crammed.  That dead man's curve place?  Awesome!  90 westbound from downtown?  All of those highways would be better off if there were alternative routes to go.

Upper Class suburbs?  Twinsburg is not an upperclass suburb in NE Ohio!

[jpop]

I understand what you're saying, shs. I know lots of people who would agree with you. But being a huge mass transit advocate, I find it difficult. I hate how freeways cut up our neighborhoods, and I understand that in terms of commutes and traveling from place to place, they're helpful in getting places easier. But I would have no problem if someone one day took dynamite to most of the highways in Cleveland (with no one on them, of course .. heh).

I'm not saying that freeways are bad. Quite frankly, with cars, we need them. But once a culture becomes entirely freeway dependent, I think it can actually do more to divide up a region than help it. Freeways contribute to urban sprawl. That's something that I'm wholeheartedly against. On the other hand, I'm for regionalism, but that's mostly because it's become a fact of life in the Cleveland area. It's a tricky problem.

[MayDay]

shs, I think you have a disconnect - the funding that could enhance/repair the city's infrastructure is the funding that helped places like Twinsburg get developed in their unsustainable auto-centric manner and continues to help exacerbate sprawl and increase traffic. And no one is making digs - we're pointing out the fact that recent history shows that the exurbs have prospered at the expense of the center of the region. Again, as KJP has said - every new home or retail space that opens in exurbia is at the expense of something already built in an established neighborhood. 
 
"And where are you driving that you think we don't have traffic?"

I don't drive. I've been happily car-free for over 5 years, and I didn't have to go to NYC to realize the benefits. I realized that to reduce congestion and my stress, I need to be the change I wanted to see. I chose to move to an area that's served well by transit and made the minor adjustments in my life to make that transition easier. *edit* I realize my situation (working downtown, no need to leave the office during the day) doesn't apply to everyone but believe me, there are thousands of people with similar circumstances who could easily go car-free (and save a sh!tload of money) but they think that using transit only really works in places like NYC, Chicago, or Europe. No, RTA isn't perfect and for the times I do need a car, I use CityWheels but living car-free is more realistic than you'd be inclined to think.

There are alternative routes - we call them surface streets, but they happen to go through residential areas. Sorry that it's an inconvenience for your speedy driving, but I live on one of those "major roadways". Thanks to "improvements" that make it easier for cars to go faster down my street, I ended up with some yoho on my front lawn this morning. His tire tracks went right through the spot where a dozen neighborhood kids wait for a bus - thankfully they'd already been picked up. So because someone from a southwestern exurb decided to use MY street as a shortcut to congestion on the Innerbelt, my safety and the safety of my neighbors was put at risk. Sorry to break it to you, but people live on Van Aken/Shaker/Buckeye and I think it's a sad statement when we place a higher value on a few minutes travel time than we do on the safety of others.

"If I want to go from Highland Hills to downtown and not get on 480 or 77,"

[the pope]

I don't want more highways, I want better highways.

Suburban Detroit (Oakland County to be exact), wanted to add one lane in each direction to I-75 for about a 12 mile stretch. Total Estimated Price tag? Came in at about 1.5 Billion dollars.

Its not apples to apples here, but the point is, trying to go back and and fix/widen/etc. highways where its not surrounded by farms is absurdly expensive and the costs greatly outweigh the benefits (i.e. you getting there 18 seconds quicker).

It just seems like your only goal is to quickly move cars across the region at the expense of others. Quite literally at the expense of someone like MayDay (100% Car free) or Me (75% car free). Our taxes have to subsidize your 6 lane Route 8 through whatever suburb you're trying to go to. Gas taxes don't cover the cost of road construction and associated infrastructure, and not a single road in the region sure as hell ain't paying for itself.