Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown: DunnhumbyUSA HQ

[OCtoCincy]

I will say that nothing in this article implies the entire building will only be Dunnhumby.   It's highly likely that they will get 5ish floors and at LEAST 4-5 more floors would be built as well- with Dunnhumby as the anchor tenant while 3CDC works to fill the rest of the site.  Having ~45,000 sq/f on just one floor will be VERY unique for downtown and potentially could lure in some typically suburban businesses.   

Assuming that two floors are built for street level retail, then several parking decks, then 8-10 floors of office space, this could easily be a 18-20 story building.  That sounds good to me!

And if that means 5th and Race has no residential, I'm ok with that.  I'd rather see C Class office space converted to Apartments (Federal Reserve (already happening), Old Enquirer, Bartlett building, etc.) than new construction condos/apartments go up.

[natininja]

It would be very nice to see a residential component to this, but I would be even more happy to see what OC describes. Why residential developments are so slow to show up downtown boggles my mind, as the demand is demonstrated over and over.

[OCtoCincy]

^ Agreed. I'm betting that the Reserve at 4th & Race is full within.... 4 months from the beginning of leasing. 

But I digress...

[jmecklenborg]

Yeah they're saying 1,000 employees for Dunhumby, but a 1,200 space garage.  I don't know what the typical percentage of drivers to downtown office towers is, but saying 1,000 employees will use 750 spaces (some will carpool, take the bus, bike, walk, etc.) seems reasonable, meaning there will be parking for other tenants in the building or the air rights above Macy's. 

I think the problem with this new building not being tall enough is that the two drab hotels could remain prominent, so hopefully this new building will at least have enough character to take some attention away from them. 
 

[jmicha]

Not to just mindlessly add to speculation, but if they went with a 40,000 square foot floor plate pushed all the way to the sidewalks on the south side of the site, there would still be room for a building on the north side. A residential portion with much smaller floor plates could easily fit into the northern portion of the site, giving some height beyond the possibilities on the other part of the site. Either way, it sounds as though the building will already have enough height to be significant. Maybe not as much as a tower, but more from a massing, density's sake.

[OCtoCincy]

With 3CDC managing the development I'm sure it'll be something good.

I wonder if this will mean in the next 10 years we'll see the neighboring Fountain Square West come to fruition...

[nicker66]

I believe that the parking will be similar to Great American where it will go several stories above grade and be "hidden" by ground floor retail.

Dunnhumby will most likely only take about 60% of the proposed office space. It is never good business to have one tenant take up the entire space.*  The Carew Tower denied Kendle expansion a few years ago because they had too much space in the building.  Good thing they did that since Kendle shriveled up not too long after that. 

*Unless the tenant owns its own space, which appears will be the case with Dunnhumby.

Finally, I believe that the parking will stretch the entire block, Dunnhumby's tower will be at the corner of 5th and Race and they will cap the corner of 6th and race for a future tower, similar to Macy's. 

[jmblec2]

Just to clarify the article does NOT say 1200 spaces for the winning project. That was the deal the county put together for the Banks proposal. Also as noted Dunnhumny will own their building and 3CDC will own the rest.

[mcadrenaline]

not sure what anyone else has heard, but my understanding is that there have been discussions about the future of the Millenium Hotel, including demolition. The Singapore-based real esate group that owns the building has not invested in the space in many years. I stayed there once or twice five years ago and it was bad then, who know what it's like now.

[UncleRando]

This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.

• 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
• Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
• NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
• 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
• Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
• OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
• The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.

So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

[Jimmy_James]

^Better for the county and city, for sure.  But I think Fifth & Race is a better location for dunnhumby.  It's much closer to their clients and the rest of downtown, and it allows them a larger structure than they could have had at The Banks (according to what I'm reading... I'm not sure why they couldn't take a larger footprint and kick off Phase 2).  They're pretty isolated in their current location, and The Banks doesn't offer much over Fifth & Race beyond parking.  I totally agree that the city and county should have pushed harder to get them into The Banks, but I can definitely understand why dunnhumby chose the location they did.

[Sherman Cahal]

Well, it is up to dunnhumbyUSA to decide on where to locate. Incentives help, but the company ultimately makes the decision. If nothing was proposed and constructed at 5th and Race for this long, then something's up.

[OCtoCincy]

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two.

Ahhhhh has no one read anything?  They physically can't fit at the Banks site.  It is a MAXIMUM 250,000 square foot building over 15 floors (revisions in construction limited the buildings size from the original plan).  That is about 16,000 square feet per floor.  They want 250,000 square feet TODAY and to own the building.  That means, if 5 years from now they hit their 1000 staff goal (currently 515 employees) they might need to move again.  And who would buy a building only to have to move 5 or so years later since it has no room for growth.

Dunnhumby has now on several occasions very clearly said they want large open floors, hence they are going with 40,000 square foot floors instead of the 16,000 square foot floors they would have been limited to at the Banks.

It's lovely to fantasize about what's best for downtown.  But we have to face reality and Dunnhumby was not going to move to the Banks site.  Period.

Finally- this is not the end of the world.  The old enquirer building, Barlett co. building, etc. are all empty.  Updating beautiful old office buildings to residential is all the market is interested in.  No one is taking old c-class office space from 120 year old empty buildings and making into new apartments. 

Finally, if anyone watches citicable religiously, yes, guiltily pleasure, the City manager said residential is still part of the plan.

[RockyMountainHigh]

This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.

• 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
• Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
• NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
• 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
• Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
• OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
• The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.

So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

There are still plenty of vacant parcels that could support high-rise residential:

- St. Xavier Park area (Sycamore both north and south of Seventh and extending north of Seventh all the way to Main)
- NE corner of Seventh and Vine and half of the entire block east of Vine
- NW corner of Sixth and Sycamore (both the vacant lot and the lot that is currently wasted on the single-story Red Fox diner)
- mid-block east side of Main between Sixth and Seventh (infill could be larger part of massive vacant lot next to St. X)
- SW corner of Ninth and Sycamore directly north of the Power Building (though this would be across the intersection from the jail)
- SE corner of Walnut and Eighth
- the vacant land on Eighth St. that the old Blue Wisp was on
- NW corner of Race and Garfield Place
- mass vacant land between One Lytle Place and the PP bridge on both sides of the street (originally slated for condo high-rises but scuttled due to the economy)
- perhaps even some decent-sized infill on the SW corner of Fifth and Broadway

Not to mention the mass amounts of vacant space at and near the Court/Elm/Central area. And I wouldn't count out residential being at least part of this Fifth & Race development either.

And why can't the lots near the courthouse and especially City Hall ever be high-rise residential? What's the roadblock?

[LesterLyles]

This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.

• 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
• Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
• NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
• 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
• Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
• OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
• The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.

So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

There are still plenty of vacant parcels that could support high-rise residential:

- St. Xavier Park area (Sycamore both north and south of Seventh and extending north of Seventh all the way to Main)
- NE corner of Seventh and Vine and half of the entire block east of Vine
- NW corner of Sixth and Sycamore (both the vacant lot and the lot that is currently wasted on the single-story Red Fox diner)
- mid-block east side of Main between Sixth and Seventh (infill could be larger part of massive vacant lot next to St. X)
- SW corner of Ninth and Sycamore directly north of the Power Building (though this would be across the intersection from the jail)
- SE corner of Walnut and Eighth
- the vacant land on Eighth St. that the old Blue Wisp was on
- NW corner of Race and Garfield Place
- mass vacant land between One Lytle Place and the PP bridge on both sides of the street (originally slated for condo high-rises but scuttled due to the economy)
- perhaps even some decent-sized infill on the SW corner of Fifth and Broadway

Not to mention the mass amounts of vacant space at and near the Court/Elm/Central area. And I wouldn't count out residential being at least part of this Fifth & Race development either.

And why can't the lots near the courthouse and especially City Hall ever be high-rise residential? What's the roadblock?

Couldn't agree more.  While I think we all agree that downtown could use more housing options and particularly a high rise or two, there are plenty of available lots to build on; plenty!!!!  Not to mention the rennovation of some exisiting buildings.  OBviously the Reserve is a great example of such a possibility; Enquirer building anyone?

[seanian513]

Having 50-60 thousand square foot floors is huge, but if that's what they want then cool.  I personally didn't like it when the company I used to work for in Florida went from an office tower into two 65 thousand square foot floors.  No longer were the many departments conveniently located via a quick ride on the elevators.  But I’ll say it again, let them build what works for them, they know what works for their business. 

I’m sure the space will be used to its fullest.  I just hope that the space above the DH offices is utilized to its full potential because of this being in the heart of the city. 

I would think that DunnhumbyUSA would want its marquee on the top of a tower to be part of the skyline.  If the building sits to low then this type of visibility will not be possible.  We will eventually find out when the plans come out.

[RockyMountainHigh]

Having 50-60 thousand square foot floors is huge, but if that's what they want then cool.  I personally didn't like it when the company I used to work for in Florida went from an office tower into two 65 thousand square foot floors.  No longer were the many departments conveniently located via a quick ride on the elevators.  But I’ll say it again, let them build what works for them, they know what works for their business. 

I’m sure the space will be used to its fullest.  I just hope that the space above the DH offices is utilized to its full potential because of this being in the heart of the city. 

I would think that DunnhumbyUSA would want its marquee on the top of a tower to be part of the skyline.  If the building sits to low then this type of visibility will not be possible.  We will eventually find out when the plans come out.

Well, it's not like DH is in an office tower now. Far from it. With the street-level retail and parking, their new offices will surely be higher than the highest floor they have now.

[nati streets]

OCtoCincy- where have you read 40,000 sqft per floor?  QCS is not even 40,000 sqft per floor...  and the sites Dunhumby itself has mentioned do not logically support a floorplate that size.

[OCtoCincy]

^ the Enquirer article that announced the deal.

And QCS has never been considered large in terms of SF per floor. The P&G office building (not the towers) has almost twice the Square footage per flood as QCS.

Their current site is roughly 35,000 SF per floor. They clearly prefer large open floor plans.

[PhattyNati]

I heard on the radio this morning that Dahoney addressed council on the issue, and stated that Retail AND Residential are planned to be components in the development.  No mention to what extent, but it seems city leaders do indeed understand the importance of the site and mixed use is the goal.

[JYP]

^Yes and it is confirmed in the Business Courier.

[jmblec2]

^^ It is not confirmed that there WOULD be residential included in the plan. It cleary states that it COULD be part of the plan. The city can suggest whatever they want, but it is up the the owner of the building (DunnhumbyUSA). I just want to make sure the facts as of now are clear.

[Rob Jaques]

DunnHumby isn't going to own the building. They'll own their floors. 3CDC is going to be the developer, so it'll be up to them. And with 3CDC's track record, it'll will more than likely include residential.

[jmblec2]

I am going to point back to the facts, where it has been stated that DunnHumby will own their building and 3CDC will own the garage and any retail surrounding the structure, anything beyond that is speculation. But plans can change. I just don’t see DunnHumby wanting to be sandwiched between floors or not being the main focal point of the building. 3CDC can be the developer all they want, with no DunnHumby there is no project, therefore it is not up to 3CDC, so if DunnHumby does not approve the plans, the project will not go forward.

[Sherman Cahal]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the new dunnhumby USA headquarters will be a 1000 footer.

[thomasbw]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the new dunnhumby USA headquarters will be a 1000 footer.

They're already calling it the Dunnhumby Khalifa.

[UncleRando]

This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.

• 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
• Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
• NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
• 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
• Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
• OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
• The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.

So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

There are still plenty of vacant parcels that could support high-rise residential:

- St. Xavier Park area (Sycamore both north and south of Seventh and extending north of Seventh all the way to Main)
- NE corner of Seventh and Vine and half of the entire block east of Vine
- NW corner of Sixth and Sycamore (both the vacant lot and the lot that is currently wasted on the single-story Red Fox diner)
- mid-block east side of Main between Sixth and Seventh (infill could be larger part of massive vacant lot next to St. X)
- SW corner of Ninth and Sycamore directly north of the Power Building (though this would be across the intersection from the jail)
- SE corner of Walnut and Eighth
- the vacant land on Eighth St. that the old Blue Wisp was on
- NW corner of Race and Garfield Place
- mass vacant land between One Lytle Place and the PP bridge on both sides of the street (originally slated for condo high-rises but scuttled due to the economy)
- perhaps even some decent-sized infill on the SW corner of Fifth and Broadway

Not to mention the mass amounts of vacant space at and near the Court/Elm/Central area. And I wouldn't count out residential being at least part of this Fifth & Race development either.

And why can't the lots near the courthouse and especially City Hall ever be high-rise residential? What's the roadblock?

Couldn't agree more.  While I think we all agree that downtown could use more housing options and particularly a high rise or two, there are plenty of available lots to build on; plenty!!!!  Not to mention the rennovation of some exisiting buildings.  OBviously the Reserve is a great example of such a possibility; Enquirer building anyone?

I agree with both of you that there are lots of potential sites on which to build residential, but of the sites we are all identifying very few are going to ever see a building over 10 floors built on them.

Yes, building on ALL of those sites would add a thousand or two thousand residents to downtown. But in my opinion, there needs to be even more residents than that if Cincinnati really wants a vibrant, 24-hour center city. Right now there is just very little in terms of residential properties provided in the CBD. I'm glad that residential may in fact be a component of this site, but even more is needed. I hope 3CDC gets it right.

[OCtoCincy]

I am going to point back to the facts, where it has been stated that DunnHumby will own their building and 3CDC will own the garage and any retail surrounding the structure, anything beyond that is speculation. But plans can change. I just don’t see DunnHumby wanting to be sandwiched between floors or not being the main focal point of the building. 3CDC can be the developer all they want, with no DunnHumby there is no project, therefore it is not up to 3CDC, so if DunnHumby does not approve the plans, the project will not go forward.

"Dunnhumby would own its offices. Non-profit developer Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) would own and operate the rest. " -Enquirer.

That does NOT say Dunnhumby owns the entire building and that 3CDC & the City (Who owns the land and will likely be providing major financing) would have no say.

It's Definitley not a certainty that there will be residential, but it's not solely Dunnhumby's decision at all.

[cincyimages]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the new dunnhumby USA headquarters will be a 1000 footer.

They're already calling it the Dunnhumby Khalifa.

LOL

[jmblec2]

I am going to point back to the facts, where it has been stated that DunnHumby will own their building and 3CDC will own the garage and any retail surrounding the structure, anything beyond that is speculation. But plans can change. I just don’t see DunnHumby wanting to be sandwiched between floors or not being the main focal point of the building. 3CDC can be the developer all they want, with no DunnHumby there is no project, therefore it is not up to 3CDC, so if DunnHumby does not approve the plans, the project will not go forward.

"Dunnhumby would own its offices. Non-profit developer Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) would own and operate the rest. " -Enquirer.

That does NOT say Dunnhumby owns the entire building and that 3CDC & the City (Who owns the land and will likely be providing major financing) would have no say.

It's Definitley not a certainty that there will be residential, but it's not solely Dunnhumby's decision at all.

DunnhumbyUSA is in the final stages of dealmaking to build 250,000 square feet of offices above a parking and retail structure. Dunnhumby would own its offices. Non-profit developer Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) would own and operate the rest. - the entire Enquirer quote


key words: "250,000 square feet of offices above a parking and retail structure" and "3CDC would own and operate the rest" the rest being the "parking and retail structure"  it does not say:  "parking, retail, and the additional floors of residential"

I am just going by the facts, i'm not trying to say someone is wrong or there is no chance of residential.

Just that stating it has been "confirmed" that there will be residential, is false or to state "3CDC is going to be the developer, so it'll be up to them" is also false. Because it is not up to 3CDC, DunnHumby is the customer to 3CDC not the other way around. Sure 3CDC will provide input, suggestions, and ideas but in the end DunnHumby will get what they want, not what 3CDC wants soley because they are the "developer".

[jmecklenborg]

>there needs to be even more residents than that

It should be pointed out that even the all-residential sections of Manhattan (upper west, east, and harlem), you can walk around at 3am and still not see anybody.  The 24-hour sections visitors are familiar with in Manhattan are generally south of Central Park and concetrated around entertainment.  This is actually the sot of environment downtown and OTR are, so it probably won't take forests of 16-floor public housing blocks to support late night businesses. 

[UncleRando]

It should be pointed out that even the all-residential sections of Manhattan (upper west, east, and harlem), you can walk around at 3am and still not see anybody.  The 24-hour sections visitors are familiar with in Manhattan are generally south of Central Park and concetrated around entertainment.  This is actually the sot of environment downtown and OTR are, so it probably won't take forests of 16-floor public housing blocks to support late night businesses.

These areas of New York have far greater amounts of residential space than does the CBD. Yes OTR has lots, but the CBD does not. If you want to make the CBD self-supporting in terms of all the retail currently there, and the retail desired (i.e. grocery store, movie theater, clothing shops), then you are going to need a lot more residential space. Converting historic office buildings would go a long way, but it won't get you all the way there.

With that said, I'm not advocating a "forest of 16-floor housing blocks." What I'm advocating is the thoughtful incorporation of a few high-rise residential towers. These towers will supply a large amount of new residents and also introduce a new housing product to downtown. Believe it or not, not everyone has the desire to live in a restored 19th century building.

[jmblec2]

It should be pointed out that even the all-residential sections of Manhattan (upper west, east, and harlem), you can walk around at 3am and still not see anybody.  The 24-hour sections visitors are familiar with in Manhattan are generally south of Central Park and concetrated around entertainment.  This is actually the sot of environment downtown and OTR are, so it probably won't take forests of 16-floor public housing blocks to support late night businesses.

These areas of New York have far greater amounts of residential space than does the CBD. Yes OTR has lots, but the CBD does not. If you want to make the CBD self-supporting in terms of all the retail currently there, and the retail desired (i.e. grocery store, movie theater, clothing shops), then you are going to need a lot more residential space. Converting historic office buildings would go a long way, but it won't get you all the way there.

With that said, I'm not advocating a "forest of 16-floor housing blocks." What I'm advocating is the thoughtful incorporation of a few high-rise residential towers. These towers will supply a large amount of new residents and also introduce a new housing product to downtown. Believe it or not, not everyone has the desire to live in a restored 19th century building.

I really think AFFORDABLE( 100k to 300K on the Higher side) condos in the CBD would be great too with reasonable HOA fees ($100 to $250 a month). A lot of people don't like or want to rent and would like to own but can't afford these 600K+ units and $500 to $1,000 HOA fees.

[Jimmy_James]

I really think AFFORDABLE( 100k to 300K on the Higher side) condos in the CBD would be great too with reasonable HOA fees ($100 to $250 a month). A lot of people don't like or want to rent and would like to own but can't afford these 600K+ units and $500 to $1,000 HOA fees.

Totally agree with this.  When I was looking to buy, there was very little in this price range downtown.  And since I don't happen to work downtown, the increased expense wouldn't even be offset by a lack of commute for me.  The CBD could really use some affordable condos for YPs, along with more apartments.

[OCtoCincy]

But I doubt any bank is going to finance a high rise condo tower that isn't 450-700,000 units.