Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown: DunnhumbyUSA HQ

[mcadrenaline]

So how long until we see renderings and/or the full project details...I have to imagine these are already ironed out by now...

[natininja]

36 mil doesn't really sound like high design, but I don't claim to know a lot about development costs.

[nicker66]

So how long until we see renderings and/or the full project details...I have to imagine these are already ironed out by now...

I saw something in the early stages that had 220x185 floor plates, or about 40,000sf.  It was the south part of the block and 7 or 8 floors above the parking.  No real design to it, just a big rectangle.  Exterior finish wasn't really shown.

I didn't see any parking garage details and the north part of the lot was empty on what I saw, but I think the focus is getting the office building started ASAP and the residential will follow.

Not sure I was supposed to even see anything so please don't DM me begging for more details

[CincyIntheKnow]

It all depends on whats included in that 36 million. If it is the previously reported 200,000SF that is a measely $180/SF, not much room for high design if that includes interior fitout, elevators, lobbies, etc. 

[unusualfire]

Why waste real estate in the CBD on a low to mid rise building? That would be better off at Keystone, but still in the city of Cincinnati. In the CBD it should be a minimal of 20 stories to maximize on space and density. Which would mean more tax dollars for the city.

[seanian513]

Why waste real estate in the CBD on a low to mid rise building? That would be better off at Keystone, but still in the city of Cincinnati. In the CBD it should be a minimal of 20 stories to maximize on space and density. Which would mean more tax dollars for the city.

I agree with the waste of real estate on low to mid rise in the CBD.  So why wouldn't 3CDC try to get another tenant that likes the larger floor layout, some tenant that typically would be on the outer edges of the metro area.  Depending on the size of the company(s), they could add another 20 or more floors above or below Dunnhumby's portion.  I've seen companies leave downtown for the suburbs, why not get some of them back.  Cincinnati's CBD has a lot more to offer these days and I would think that some of these companies on the outskirts of town would now be wanting to come to the CBD or come back to the CBD.       

[OCtoCincy]

^ Vacancy rates are also at an all time high.... It's hard to justify building a 20 story building when there is a 20 story building at 6th & Walnut that is 75% empty. Along with many others that are 20-30% empty.

It's simple market economics. Do they wait ANOTHER 10 years for some magical high rise, or build an 8 story mid rise that dramatically improves the street level density in the neighborhood, provides a great place for the fastest growing business in downtown & add 150 new residents.

If there was enough demand I'm sure another business would have said, wait! We want to be the anchor tenant in 2 more floor, etc.

But no one is just going to build that with current vacancy rates.

I'm ok with the current plan. Not thrilled to build an 8 story tower here, but it's fine. It will be good.




Also- related to companies who have left, some left because they WANT suburban style office campuses.  Cincinnati has virtually NO suburban style office areas(keystone, Oakley Station, Xavier park[eventually]), and it's a simple fact: some businesses prefer them.

[CincyGuy45202]

So I recently heard that between $50-60 million is the cost for the garage and retail- and that is separate from the cost of the office space (roughly $36 million). so total is an $85-95 million building.  no idea if that includes the apartment cost.  Guessing not.

[mcadrenaline]

Announcement coming today at 11:30AM. From Dunnhumby's Twitter account it looks like Kroger will be a part of this announcement as well *fingers crossed*

[jdm00]

Any updates? 

[2LiveCarew]

1000 dunnhumbyUSA employees will work at the 5th and Race Development (from ChooseCincy twitter, retweeted by Dunnhumby):

http://twitter.com/#!/choosecincy/status/187204141519601664

Great news! I knew they wanted to expand, but that's as big as the highest estimate I've heard so far. Does anyone know if the announcement covered anything else (like a downtown Kroger, not to hope for too much)?

EDIT: Here's the link to the Business Courier article: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/04/03/kasich-kvamme-announce-dunnhumbyusa.html

EDIT2: Looks like Dunnhumby will potentially occupy 10 floors by itself. If residential would be on top of that, the place could end up being pretty tall. Although some people have talked about the residential being beside the Dunnhumby component, rather than above/below it.

[morganjr]

From the article posted on Bussiness Courier, it looks like it will only be 5 floors, with the option to expand in the future if needed. So that would mean if residental is going to happen, it would be built beside the building, not on top. Am I totally missing something, or am I understanding this correctly? I still think its great news to hear that they will be expanding to 1,000 employees. That is great news for Cincy.

[2LiveCarew]

Actually, I think you're right, from the sound of the article. I just saw it immediately after I posted, did a quick skim, and edited my post.

[Gordon Bombay]

So are we looking at a 5 story building here with potential to build on top of that base?

[atlas]

5 stories of office.  1 story of retail.  and probably 3-4 of parking.  so off the bat, probably 10 stories.  with the option of 5 more. 

[mcadrenaline]

Was there no mention of residential or a Kroger location on this site today? Those are the portions I care most about to be honest....

[OCtoCincy]

Pretty sure the Kroger idea is dead. I heard from some friends it was never going to be a full service Kroger anyway, but that they considered a Kroger "minimart" type place.

All my sources still say yes to residential & that multiple developers are vying for the project. This will be adjacent to the office space, above some parking.

I'm hearing: 3 stories underground parking. 2 stories of retail 1-2 floors of parking above ground and then 5 stories of office with option for more office at a later date.

[jmecklenborg]

It will be interesting to see if there will be enough excess parking to serve the air rights above Macy's.

[OCtoCincy]

Highly unlikely.

Let's count the numbers:

Dunnhumby expects 1000 employees in 2 years at this site. You can guess that means 800 spaces needed at any given time by them.

They are likely putting three stories underground with 1-2 stories above ground. Fountain square garage, for comparison, is 600 spaces.
Add required parking for 150 apartments
Add ~75 retail/restaurant employees.
Add 100 shoppers/downtown patrons busting the site or things near by.

We just counted demand for about 1200 spaces on that site alone.


Definitely won't be space for anything above Macy's. So sad they didn't add underground parking there originally.

[Sherman Cahal]

Don't count out The Banks for additional parking as additional phases are developed. That should alleviate pressures on parking for 2nd-5th Streets at the least.

[OCtoCincy]

^ businesses/monthly pass holders cannot use the Riverfront garages on game days.

[OCtoCincy]

I wouldn't pay $75 a month to be kicked out of my space for random Wednesday afternoon games in the summer.

[Sherman Cahal]

Interesting - did not know that. I wonder if that will be a problem when the garages are fully complete.

[jmecklenborg]

Macy's does have an underground garage, but it is fairly small.  I've never parked there so I'm not sure how many spaces it has.  I'm concerned at this point that we won't see Fountain Place live long enough to order a beer, as the location is too valuable to remain what it is.  5/3 probably still holds the air rights so would have some hand in how it's redeveloped. 

[OCtoCincy]

I heard 5/3's air rights expire in 2013. But I'd expect city officials would extend it indefinitely unless someone comes forward with a better plan.

A nearby disappointment is the giant 1960's Pogue garage. Its HUGE. Does nothing for the neighborhood, and is so crappy that it's rarely full. If that were torn down and replaced with 70% as many parking spaces, but designed to include residents & moved some parking underground we'd see significantly more investment in underutilized spaces like Fountain Place & tower Place. That would greatly compliment 3CDC's work at the Square & now 5th & Race. Unfortunately its privately owned by someone who doesn't care so 3CDC and the City have little leverage there.

[jmecklenborg]

Does 5/3 pay for these air rights?  I can't imagine that the city simply gave them away, unless there was some sort of land swap or other deal back in 1995~ when the air rights were negotiated. 

Also, the Tower Place roof garage can only be reached by that old Pogue's garage.  So the city would lose access to its own parking garage during any reconstruction period. 

[seanian513]

Does 5/3 pay for these air rights?  I can't imagine that the city simply gave them away, unless there was some sort of land swap or other deal back in 1995~ when the air rights were negotiated. 

Also, the Tower Place roof garage can only be reached by that old Pogue's garage.  So the city would lose access to its own parking garage during any reconstruction period.

Just like the tower place roof garage is connected via the old Pogue's, couldn't the same concept be done above Macy's with access through the garage being built at 5th and Race?  This way if something gets built above Macy's there would be parking available.  Before the plans are finalized on the Dunnhumby building and the 1000 car garage is put in, it would be nice if they would up that amount either in the 5th & Race location or a combination of the 5th & Race and above Macy's.  Or better yet, they could even just design the garage at 5th & Race where it could be connected across the street to Macy's at a later date, reserved access for when a tower goes in at that location.  They wouldn't have to build a connector bridge until a tower does go up above Macy's. 

[jmecklenborg]

Anything you can imagine can be built these days, so yes a parking deck *could* be built above Macy's and could be connected via a bridge over Race St., however the cost would be astronomical, since the pillar spacing does not appear to be ideal for the geometry of vehicles or the precast sections that are typically dropped in place. 

You can see the Fountain Place pillar spacing on Google Earth.  Some are on 30 foot centers, which is common for garages, but others are on about 45 foot centers, which would drive up the cost.  If condos were built atop Macy's, a parking deck could be reached by some sort of car elevator, which actually exist in a few places around the world.  An office building would need traditional access, and there is actually room for a helix on the Fountain Place footprint where the ramp leads to the underground garage.  The helix on the Pogue's garage has a 70 foot diameter, and there is an opening of about 100x100 feet around the current garage entrance. 

[Civvik]

I'm secretly glad they aren't pursuing a Kroger at that location. It keeps my dream alive of building a big one at the base of a residential tower at Central and Walnut, on the Streetcar line.

[CincyGuy45202]

^ I've heard Kroger looked at that site for a standalone Kroger and said no because they couldn't fit enough parking.  They wouldn't consider a garage.

[Civvik]

One day such considerations will be somewhat obsolete.

[JYP]

The latest monthly update from 3CDC has a rendering example from the architects involved in the project: http://www.3cdc.org/images/editor/March%20Monthly%20Report(1).pdf

[Rob Jaques]

That doesn't look like a rendering. I think that's a photo of a building that firm designed. (per the caption)

[JYP]

That's what I meant, an example of the architects work, not of the site. Sorry for the confusion.

[atlas]

I'd assume that they provided that rendering to give us an idea of what the building will look like.  So expect something like that.