Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown: DunnhumbyUSA HQ

[Jimmy_James]

But who's buying $450k+ condos in the current market?

[Sherman Cahal]

Heck, we can't even sell the existing condos in downtown at the $300k range, or $500k units in Mt. Adams!

I was photographing some units recently for a client, and the units were for sale for about $650k, with a HOA of $1,200 a month. They hadn't sold in 3 years. In fact, none of the units had sold, and all had lease options of about $1,600 a month - still, with no takers. These were in downtown, and units at The Banks were being snatched up very quickly at this time.

There is a glut of high end condos, with outrageous "HOA" fees. There are still plenty of unsold units in OTR. The ones above Park+Vine (Belmain, IIRC) were all condos that never sold until they were converted into rentals that were snatched in a matter of months.

[jmblec2]

Heck, we can't even sell the existing condos in downtown at the $300k range, or $500k units in Mt. Adams!

I was photographing some units recently for a client, and the units were for sale for about $650k, with a HOA of $1,200 a month. They hadn't sold in 3 years. In fact, none of the units had sold, and all had lease options of about $1,600 a month - still, with no takers. These were in downtown, and units at The Banks were being snatched up very quickly at this time.

There is a glut of high end condos, with outrageous "HOA" fees. There are still plenty of unsold units in OTR. The ones above Park+Vine (Belmain, IIRC) were all condos that never sold until they were converted into rentals that were snatched in a matter of months.

Agreed, hence the affordable condos comment.

[UncleRando]

I agree that much of the macro housing market is flooded with owner-occupied units, but where is the glut of available condos downtown?

[Sherman Cahal]

I wouldn't concentrate it to just downtown. There were 5 projects that I recently shot photos of, and 2 of them were completely empty. Another, the Palisades, hasn't been doing all that well in terms of units sold, and it was recently profiled in the Enquirer (with a great photo of my realtor that sold me my house!). The other two were mostly vacant. Four out of the five had been on the market for at least 2 years.

OTR has been doing better - I think the last status report from OTR had about 82% of the condo units sold that were built in Phases 1 - 4, which is good, and the ones that are still available are generally the most expensive units in a particular development. Not that much of a shock. But some, like the Belmain, were in the $125k+ range, and just did not sell because they were grossly overpriced despite its location at 12th and Main. When those became rentals for modest prices, they were snatched up quickly.

I wouldn't say it is a huge glut - it's not as if a tower is completely empty, like some are in Miami. But I just don't see a demand right now - anywhere, for $400k+ units in a tower. I'd rather see apartments, where there is proven demand right now. I mean, we are nearing 100% occupancy for apartments in downtown and OTR!

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

Great news on this!  I was out of town for a week with no computer access so I was really surprised.  As far as the development I agree/believe that Dunnhumby will own their portion of the site through a condominium style ownership which is done quite often.  I also agree that with 3CDC's record, the building will include the parking, residential and possibly additional office.  I don't know that speculative, large scale Class A office space is in 3CDC's wheelhouse, so if there is a few additional floors I wouldn't be surprised, but I wouldn't expect much either.  As far as underground parking I would expect little to none as the economics just aren't there unless someone (likely the City) would pony up the cash just to have it benefit downtown as a loss leader.

[OCtoCincy]

^ underground parking is certainly part of the process. 3CDC's original site study said it was a necessity.

[TheHemroid]

I love the fact this spot has been taken care of.  Its almost like a slap in the face for Eagle Realty because they had so many chances to develop that land and 3CDC takes over.  Almost instantly they got something done.  It just goes to show where certain priorities are within businesses.  Of course I could be wrong but 3CDC was always the best choice.

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

^ underground parking is certainly part of the process. 3CDC's original site study said it was a necessity.

I wasn't saying there won't be any, I was just noting the fact that it is a money loser and no for-profit developer would put in any if they had a choice to build it above ground.  The Macy's/Fountain Square West development is a perfect example.  That site would have been a great spot for a large amount of underground parking for the betterment of downtown as a whole, but the economics weren't there to make it work and the City couldn't afford to pony up the cash to make it happen, so the development has a small amount of underground parking, only about 150 spaces or so I believe.

[jmecklenborg]

I just ran across this photo I took of a parking garage in Atlanta in 1998 or 1999.  No, I doubt we are going to be met with a new garage this hideous:

[PhattyNati]

^Cite one example where a new office development in downtown Cincinnati has produced a garage that looks anything like that?

[jmecklenborg]

I took a photo of it because I thought the idea to give a parking garage a Las Vegas-type neo-classic facade was simply unbelievable.  No, we don't have anything that nutty here, but I don't think designers should be trying to hide parking garages either, like what happened with the QCS II lobby/garage facing 4th.  The average person might not notice the garage, but intelligent people will, and the city is trying to recruit intelligent people, not average people. 

A moment of silence for our old friend:

[nicker66]

Not sure that people realize building a condo tower at this location with all parking below grade and units under 300K is so cost prohibitive it would be laughed out of the room.  I know this board is full of dreamers but at some point you have to remember things cost money.  The older office buildings need to be converted before anyone will even propose something like that.

I was just reading the Business Courier's top 25 office buildings list and realized that  dunnhumby's space requirements will most likely require their space to span the entire block.  They want floor plates similar to P&G's central building which spans the entire block between Sycamore and Broadway.  Not sure what you can combine with that other than more office.

I predict parking half below and half above grade, hidden by first floor retail.  Then maybe a tower of 10-12 floors making it maybe 18 stories above grade.  Nothing special.   3CDC might keep hope alive by adding the supports for a future tower similar to what's on top of Fountain Place but we see how that has worked out. (Fifth Third Bank owns the air rights to Fountain Place)

[ucgrady]

They should build it with plans to expand their own space vertically, they have already proven they can expand quickly
and allowing future expansion will prevent them from having to move again in 5-10 years. It has been done successfully, just look at the Blue Cross Blue Shield building in Chicago.

[PhattyNati]

I took a photo of it because I thought the idea to give a parking garage a Las Vegas-type neo-classic facade was simply unbelievable.  No, we don't have anything that nutty here, but I don't think designers should be trying to hide parking garages either, like what happened with the QCS II lobby/garage facing 4th.  The average person might not notice the garage, but intelligent people will, and the city is trying to recruit intelligent people, not average people. 

A moment of silence for our old friend:

Agreed.  There are many ways to conceal a parking structure within a tower.  Depending on its scale, it may not be economical to address it exactly as they did with Broadway Tower, but I guarantee integrating the parking portion will be a priority in this location.

I was just reading the Business Courier's top 25 office buildings list and realized that  dunnhumby's space requirements will most likely require their space to span the entire block.  They want floor plates similar to P&G's central building which spans the entire block between Sycamore and Broadway.  Not sure what you can combine with that other than more office.

There is no reason they cannot locate residential entirely above what is sure to be block-long office plates. 

[jmecklenborg]

The reason why I don't buy this whole large floor plates business is because elevator shafts and utilities must be in the center of the space somewhere, unless they push all that against the back wall, which would be pretty unusual (The Carew Tower, oddly enough, has this situation).  So if there is a residential tower, it will have its own elevator shafts that take up space in the middle of these large floor plates, aside from the elevators necessary for the office space.

I worked in a huge suburban office building that was longer than this one, and the elevator shafts and bathrooms had the effect of totally blocking the opposite side of the floor.  I didn't know the names of anyone over there, or if they even had names.  That's why I'm not buying this open floors talk, unless they are in fact planning to push all utilities against the west wall. 

Then there is the whole matter of pillars.  Again, it seems cost prohibitive to create floors of office space measuring 200x400 feet without rows of pillars.  Has Dunhumby determined the pillar ratio at which creativity becomes stifled?

[Cincy1]

I must say that I feel better about this since they are adding a residential component....would still like to see more height, but I understand they are looking for specific design elements.  Hopefully Kasich does not try to weasel in on this expansion....

[Civvik]

Every time I think of massive floorplate new construction I think of this BOFA campus in uptown Charlotte. That's at least a 40,000 SF floorplate in that big piece, and probably a lot more. How do I know? Look at the big square parking garage on the east end, it's about 360x360, or over 100,000 SF. And the big office building is about half that.

Also notice that the big parking garage is lined with about 40' deep of condos on the south side. So, in many respects, these are the kinds of dimensions and "feel" that the 5th and Race site could provide.

Charlotte:

Cincinnati:

[jmblec2]

I must say that I feel better about this since they are adding a residential component....would still like to see more height, but I understand they are looking for specific design elements.  Hopefully Kasich does not try to weasel in on this expansion....

What makes you so sure there is a residential componet?

[ColDayMan]

Documents reveal dunnhumby mid-rise, possible downtown Kroger



DOWNTOWN — The city of Cincinnati has opened its books on a pending deal that’s likely to bring 1,000 dunnhumbyUSA workers, 40,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space and up to 1,000 parking spaces to the long-anticipated Fifth and Race development.

It could also bring the central business district its first Kroger grocery store and up to 130 residential units.

City documents provided to the Enquirer reveal a plan for a mid-rise building for the consumer insights firm at Fifth and Race, and at Sixth and Race, residential units atop an above-ground parking garage. The two buildings would sit above underground parking and be connected by street-level retail. And one document shows a potential smaller-format test grocery store for Kroger.

More below:
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120217/BIZ/302180006/Documents-reveal-dunnhumby-mid-rise-possible-downtown-Kroger?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

[atlas]

oh maaaannnn. 

[willalbro]

Thanks for the link, I missed this when browsing news this morning.

Kroger spokesman Keith Dailey said discussions with developer Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) are preliminary and no determinations have been made. But in past years, the national grocer has quashed any talk of opening a downtown store. Not enough shoppers and no proper real estate, the company has said.

I wonder if this speaks favorably of the changing demographics downtown?

Personally I think it says that Kroger is willing to consider where in past years they weren't even gonna talk about the notion.

[PhattyNati]

They'd better find their "residential developer" asap!  Im going to be extremely disappointed if they dont pull it off.   

[Jimmy_James]

Thanks for the link, I missed this when browsing news this morning.

Kroger spokesman Keith Dailey said discussions with developer Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) are preliminary and no determinations have been made. But in past years, the national grocer has quashed any talk of opening a downtown store. Not enough shoppers and no proper real estate, the company has said.

I wonder if this speaks favorably of the changing demographics downtown?

Personally I think it says that Kroger is willing to consider where in past years they weren't even gonna talk about the notion.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this is something dunnhumby was pushing for.  Kroger is a part owner and important client, and the two companies have incredibly close ties.  I know absolutely nothing beyond that, but if dunnhumby thinks they can attract better talent by having residential and a grocery, along with a vibrant street space, I could see Kroger being willing to accomodate that.

[TheHemroid]

There's still going to be a highrise above it correct?

[natininja]

They'd better find their "residential developer" asap!  Im going to be extremely disappointed if they dont pull it off.   

Yep! The relevant part of the article:

The residential component would only happen if a developer is identified soon, Leeper said. He doesn’t want construction still under way once dunnhumbyUSA moves in, which is scheduled for 2014.

“Everyone would like to do residential development there, but ideally, we construct simultaneously,” Leeper said. “I don’t want to do residential at the expense of dunnhumbyUSA.”

[jmblec2]

There's still going to be a highrise above it correct?

It almost sounds like the plan is to have two buildings on top of the parking garage surrounded by retail. but I could be wrong, the article is confusing in that aspect. Edit: Not sure how tall they would be as "mid rise"

"City documents provided to the Enquirer reveal a plan for a mid-rise building for the consumer insights firm at Fifth and Race, and at Sixth and Race, residential units atop an above-ground parking garage. The two buildings would sit above underground parking and be connected by street-level retail."

[Sherman Cahal]

Exciting times. The addition of a Kroger will signify that downtown is a work-play-live destination. These decisions are not easy - Dayton once had a downtown Kroger, and Columbus has two urban Krogers, so the idea of an urban Kroger isn't exactly new. But with the addition of The Banks, the new apartments coming online along 4th, and the revitalization of OTR, a central Kroger that offers a variety of products will be great. It appears that it will be a scaled down version of a typical store, which is great - no one needs a Marketplace down there, but one that sells the basics, with fresh foods and "take home" meals, will be good.

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

I wouldn't put too much stock in residential not happening if it doesn't happen before 2014.  It would be incredibly short sighted not to at least build the platform for future residential development after Dunnhumby is moved in and settled, and 3CDC seems to be a smart group.  In a perfect world, yes it would be best for all the construction to take place simultaneously, but it is certainly not a must in my opinion.

[BlackBengal]

What would prevent 3CDC from being the developer on the residential portion of the project? 

[natininja]

It's a really great location for a downtown Kroger, too. A block from Fountain Square, easy walk from many offices, etc. (As opposed to somewhere like the Banks.)

Its proximity to offices guarantees its success. I think the variable will be its hours (especially on weekends).

[ColDayMan]

And that downtown Dayton Kroger had NO ONE living around it and it STILL worked.  Dayton back in the early 90's didn't have much of an actual residential population but it worked because:

A). It served "greater downtown."
B). It had a 5-story parking garage on top with large elevators for shopping carts
C). Across from the bus hub
D). Attached to the (now defunct) Dayton Arcade
E). Obviously many more office workers vs. today

And again, it had barely any residential population (certainly none within 5 blocks) and it was quite successful.  The problem is that when it became popular for shoplifting, Kroger pulled out and it became a Schear's Market (former local grocery market).  Then it just became a Kinko's when all the Schear's Markets went bankrupt.

[Rabbit Hash]

I can't go back and re-read it now but IIRC, it said 130 residential units.  10/floor = 13 stories on top of retail and grarage.  Just a thought.

[seanian513]

So far it doesn't sound very impressive, at this point it sounds as if it is just going to blend in.  I know it is still in the early stages and can turn out different than what information we are given at this time.  It was always said that a building that had a signature, or was more impressive for that site was going to come about.

[taestell]

I don't think we need another skyscraper at this point in time. A floor of retail w/ a grocery store, a few floors of office space, and a few floors of residential would be perfect.