Author Topic: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment  (Read 19175 times)

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Offline Rabbit Hash

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #175 on: June 12, 2014, 06:46:51 AM »
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Offline jmblec2

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #176 on: June 12, 2014, 08:20:11 AM »
In Chicago grocery stores delivery your groceries to your front door for free.

Offline Sherman Cahal

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #177 on: June 12, 2014, 08:50:34 AM »
Back in my day, we held our plastic sacks until they cut bloody grooves into the divots of our fingers.

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #178 on: June 12, 2014, 11:14:49 AM »
This thread has taken a turn for the ridiculous.  Judging someone for using a grocery cart and saying that a bike is the solution to getting around with groceries is pretty ridiculous.  Imagine having to come to a sudden stop and having your groceries spill out or the bag falls off your shoulder.  What do you do when it's snowy and icy out? Maybe these are non-factors in your perfect, idealized urban life, but for the majority of people, biking with a bag of groceries on your shoulder is not appealing. 

Hell, you can order your groceries online these days.  Delivery straight to your door.  Not for me, but it's another option that will probably only increase in popularity.  As for me, I generally drive to the grocery store, but only get as many groceries as I can fit in one basket.  This limits my spending and ensures that I'll be able to pretty comfortably carry the groceries into the house from wherever I find parking on the street.  Not perfect urbanism, but it works for me.

So go to the Kroger on Vine when it is icy? Or plan your shopping around weather forecasts, since snow and ice isn't that common? Not like you should be driving in the ice either.

All I said as far as "judging" cart-users was that using a cart is the same "big shop mentality" as using a car. It is.

"Imagine having to come to a sudden stop and having your groceries spill out or the bag falls off your shoulder."
Imagine having an auto accident where your groceries fly at you from the backseat and the meat packaging is punctured and you end up getting trichinosis through your eyeball. The horror!

"for the majority of people, biking with a bag of groceries on your shoulder is not appealing."
It remains to be seen if the majority would find walking or riding transit to the store appealing enough to make a store in the CBD successful. Your claim is meaningless to the discussion. If we want to discuss how people will likely behave, they will probably ride their cars a few blocks from OTR to the damn store. Truth. They do it to get to Findlay Market from within their own neighborhood. So what I'm saying is we were never talking about "the majority" just what is reasonable to do, and grocery shopping on a bike absolutely is a reasonable thing to do.
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Offline Quimbob

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #179 on: June 12, 2014, 11:26:30 AM »
^"These days"?
We used to get groceries & milk & eggs etc. delivered in the 60s...
I use a backpack on my bike but one should really use panniers located closer to axle height.
Putting a grocery in a tower, they could get delivery via helicopter.
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Offline Cygnus

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #180 on: June 12, 2014, 11:34:28 AM »
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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #181 on: June 12, 2014, 01:14:09 PM »
Seriously?  In a world where hundreds of millions of people still farm with pre-industrial methods, burning thousands of calories per day, and hundreds of millions more work in mines or doing sweat shop drudgery, we have a group of grown men complaining about carrying groceries a few blocks?




Offline jmicha

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #182 on: June 12, 2014, 01:20:48 PM »
Except nobody is complaining. It's stating that it's more convenient to use a trolley. That's it. Nobody complained. I've seen you complain about petty things all over these boards. Instead of insulting people try to understand what exactly it is that they're saying. If the grocery store at 4th and Race happens people like me, who live in OTR, might consider using a shopping trolley because it makes the trip more convenient. Convenience for a small price makes sense. Doesn't mean people are complaining.

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #183 on: June 12, 2014, 01:47:03 PM »
Jake, maybe you should stop commenting on peoples' behaviors, backgrounds, or personal preferences. Also, stop posting off topic when a moderator officially tells everyone to get back on topic. It's frustrating and you know better.

Everyone else, don't feed trolls.

Back on topic or the thread gets locked.
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Offline OCtoCincy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #184 on: June 12, 2014, 03:43:54 PM »
Grocery is definitely out. Just to be clear, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger by about 50%.

I'm hearing about 225 units. 850 parking spaces. Hoping it gets finalized.

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #185 on: June 12, 2014, 04:16:45 PM »
I guess we can stop discussing how to get to the grocery store, then.
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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #186 on: June 12, 2014, 04:17:04 PM »
Would the grocery store be replaced with street level retail? And wasn't the original plan that half the ground level would be a garage for the grocery store? Could that be transformed into more retail since that ground level parking isn't as necessary anymore.

225 units is still a pretty big number. On top of 850 spaces it's still going to be a pretty substantial building. I'd imagine it's going to still be in the 22-25 story range which will definitely break the skyline and fill that gap. Not quite as tall but still impressive.

Offline Ram23

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #187 on: June 12, 2014, 04:33:07 PM »
Would the grocery store be replaced with street level retail? And wasn't the original plan that half the ground level would be a garage for the grocery store? Could that be transformed into more retail since that ground level parking isn't as necessary anymore.

225 units is still a pretty big number. On top of 850 spaces it's still going to be a pretty substantial building. I'd imagine it's going to still be in the 22-25 story range which will definitely break the skyline and fill that gap. Not quite as tall but still impressive.

You'll have some tall floors for the garages and retail levels at the base, but residential floors are fairly short, typically. They don't have to be, though, like the loft building on 4th and Central, for instance. The good thing is that unlike office towers, residential buildings can have very small floor plates, and in fact that is almost preferable so you can avoid wasting space on expansive corridors.

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #188 on: June 12, 2014, 04:56:50 PM »
The renderings we've seen showed a building that was in the 350' range so if we use that as a starting point and remove a handful of floors to factor in the reduction in units (let's call this 5 or 6 floors of the 25 or so floors of units shown in the 30 story proposal) at 10' floor-to-floor and we end up with a 290'-300' or so tall building. I'd be pretty pleased with that height in this spot. Obviously that assumes the same number of units per floor and similarly proportioned floor plates which could have changed completely by now. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

Offline hoerstw

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #189 on: June 27, 2014, 07:58:55 AM »
So because City Council is on break for the summer and they did not modify the agreement.. is this pretty much shelved until the next Council Session?

Boweya Tweh (Enquirer CRE Reporter) tweeted that they still planned on breaking ground before years end.  And the Paragon situation still needs to be resolved.

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #190 on: June 27, 2014, 11:58:03 AM »
correct me if i am wrong but isn't it true that demo on the garage would not start until the tower place mall garage opens?

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #191 on: August 16, 2014, 10:57:36 PM »
Thank the lord!

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE
Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html
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Offline neilworms

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #192 on: August 17, 2014, 12:46:54 PM »
Thank the lord!

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE
Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier


What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...
 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:47:29 PM by neilworms »

Offline OCtoCincy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #193 on: August 17, 2014, 01:56:27 PM »
Thank the lord!

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE
Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier


What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...
 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which wasn't on the streetcar line anyway, is fine by me.

Offline neilworms

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #194 on: August 17, 2014, 02:07:40 PM »
Thank the lord!

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE
Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier


What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...
 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which wasn't on the streetcar line anyway, is fine by me.
Smaller groceries work well of stocked right and run well in fact I kind of prefer them.  Good example: http://www.wgrocer.com/home.html

This is one of those things Cincinnati just doesn't get

Offline Civvik

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #195 on: August 17, 2014, 02:30:51 PM »
Thank the lord!

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE
Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier


What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...
 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which wasn't on the streetcar line anyway, is fine by me.

Blah blah blah square footage, timing, etc.

Or

Two Kroger executives are on 3CDC board.
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Offline OCtoCincy

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #196 on: August 17, 2014, 03:49:16 PM »
Thank the lord!

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE
Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier


What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...
 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which wasn't on the streetcar line anyway, is fine by me.

Blah blah blah square footage, timing, etc.

Or

Two Kroger executives are on 3CDC board.

You're just spouting conspiracy theories.  Flaherty & Collins made it publicly known that the only way they were building the Grocery was if they got $4.5 million in New Market Tax Credits.  Their entire NMTC proposal was for the grocery store, stating that they needed the tax credit to bring a grocery store to a food desert.  Do your research. 

Next people will say, Kroger execs purposefully meddled in the NMTC process to prevent them from getting it... But if it were that easy to manipulate... Why did 3CDC get completely screwed and get $0. 

Again, if we want a successful not-car-focused urban grocery it should be straight up on the Streetcar line, thereby reducing the number of people who say, I'd have to walk 3 blocks to the streetcar, then 3 blocks from the streetcar to the grocery store, then 3 blocks back, then three blocks home, I'd rather just drive...  It's stupid, but people will do it.  Especially because I'm certain any grocery (and this was true of the planned 4th and race one) would offer free 1 hour parking with grocery validation.

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #197 on: August 18, 2014, 12:33:30 AM »
I'm surprised no one has commented yet that 3CDC will be in charge of the parking garage. It's really starting to seem like 3CDC's primary business is parking.

Offline ryanlammi

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #198 on: August 18, 2014, 09:34:06 AM »
I just don't see it as an issue. It's a way to have a constant revenue stream to help pay off loans. Seems like a good idea to me.
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Offline jjakucyk

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #199 on: August 18, 2014, 09:46:40 AM »
I just don't see it as an issue. It's a way to have a constant revenue stream to help pay off loans. Seems like a good idea to me.

It's not so much of an issue when parking is used to supplement residential and commercial development, but it is something to be worried about when the arrangement is flip-flopped.  With many of their developments having more parking than is required, it does call into question their motivations.  Flooding an urban neighborhood with parking spaces is not a benign action free from civic implications. 

Offline jmicha

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #200 on: August 18, 2014, 10:01:41 AM »
They've stated their intentions in the past with the parking situation. The more structured the parking (which is always going to be necessary, at least for the foreseeable future regardless of our desires) the less money and desire there is for surface parking. Therefore more development to fill those lots. Plus it allows for larger projects to tap into the 'available parking' in the garages. I live in Westfalen, none of which have reserved parking. That's 33 units. The reasoning is that Washington Park Garage is a block away if you so desire. Is a big ass parking garage the best use of a site? No. But this isn't just a big ass garage surrounded by other development. This building, whether with two levels or five levels of parking, is going to take up the same area. So all it's doing is fulfilling its requirements and reducing demand elsewhere. I'm not seeing this as an issue.

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #201 on: August 18, 2014, 10:17:10 AM »
^Exactly.  Building parking into new developments is the lesser of two evils.  If you add the parking while you can, there is less chance of some other structure being demolished for a lot/garage later.  Also, it makes nearby surface parking lots less desirable, which will hopefully lead to them being redeveloped.
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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #202 on: August 18, 2014, 11:24:23 AM »
I'm not sure I buy the argument that garages make surface lots less desirable, because there's no way a garage (which costs a fortune to build) could ever compete with a surface lot on price.  Yes adding garages does increase supply and overall brings parking costs down (which isn't necessarily a good thing either), but surface lots will always be able to undercut a garage.  If they're all owned by the same entity with specific plans and goals in mind then that changes the dynamic, but all this parking is just perpetuating bad habits. 

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #203 on: August 18, 2014, 11:38:49 AM »
I guess I'm not doing a straight up pricing comparison.  Suppose that no one builds garages and that each garage holds 2-4 times the number of vehicles as a surface lot (guessing).  As an area becomes more popular and attracts more visitors, vacant structures start to look awfully inconvenient if parking is a problem.  If developers add garage space willingly, there is a greater possibility that existing structures will get repurposed instead of demolished to make way for surface lots.   Downtown and OTR are really starting to take off.  My preference would be to have a better transit system, but in the short term adding parking as we go prevents the prices from getting out of hand and encouraging demolition.  I agree with you on cheap parking not being necessarily good, by the way.  But I think keeping it reasonable until Cincinnati becomes less car dependent is a decent goal (hopefully traffic, brent spence tolls, MetroPlus, and the streetcar take care of that eventually).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:50:28 AM by Jimmy_James »
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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #204 on: August 18, 2014, 11:59:39 AM »
That and the garages being built by the city/3CDC are so reasonably priced they really aren't much more than most lots. And I know a lot of people who would much rather spend slightly more but park in a well lit-properly maintained, but still reasonably priced garage than some random surface lot with a ticketing machine that's either confusing, doesn't work, or looks like it's about to fall off its stand which is typical of basically every lot in the basin. Structured parking, when integrated into a tower, is a really good way of meeting demand without harming the small buildings around town which would be really easy to simply demolish.

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #205 on: August 19, 2014, 11:45:49 AM »
I think this thread has been distracted from the actual project at Fourth & Race. There is a separate thread for folks to discuss their thoughts on urban grocery stores: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,10268.0.html

Offline natininja

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #206 on: August 20, 2014, 10:52:46 AM »
It does seem possible Kroger would feel like their hand is being forced, since there is so much talk of a new grocery store, and even the confirmed threat of one with the 4th & Race project. If they really were exerting influence behind the scenes to make this store not happen, it likely would have involved promising that they are planning a downtown store within X time.
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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #207 on: August 20, 2014, 11:05:09 AM »
Thanks jwulsin.



I moved all of the grocery talk unrelated to this project into the Cincinnati Urban Grocery topic.
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Offline Jimmy_James

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #208 on: August 23, 2014, 10:51:46 AM »
Since we were just recently discussing 3CDC and their plans for parking (for 4th&Race and in general), I found the the following quote in the Business Courier interesting:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/22/exclusive-want-to-develop-property-in-otr-3cdc-is.html?page=3

Quote
Since 3CDC started working in Over-the-Rhine in 2006, the nonprofit and its partners have restored 112 buildings, built 176 apartments and 333 condominiums, created more than 240,000 square feet of commercial space, 1,163 parking spaces and eight acres of actively planned civic space.

I don't want to send us off topic, but I've never actually seen those numbers laid out before.  With 509 dwellings and 1163 parking spaces, that's close to 1 per dwelling and 1 corresponding public space, which seems reasonable.  I have no idea how the real dwelling to public space ratio works out, but I would have guessed much higher on the actual number of spaces 3CDC has added.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 10:54:39 AM by Jimmy_James »
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Offline jmicha

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Re: Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment
« Reply #209 on: August 23, 2014, 11:06:05 AM »
The proportion of rentals to condos is also really nice. 2/3 of the units they've done being people committed to owning and living in the neighborhood speaks to the desirability of OTR and Downtown.

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