Topic: Cleveland: 515 Euclid Avenue

[zaceman]

Anyone seen this new development??  I remember noticing a building being demolished by the old arcade and BP tower area on Euclid.

It kind of came in under the radar.  Apparently they're in the process of building a 5 story parking garge with street retail. 

big deal

However further plans indicate a 20 story residential tower to rise above it.  Anyone have any pictures of the tower or anything on it??

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=268743

Thats the only photo i've seen of it currently.

[the pope]

there used to be a rendering of it in front of the site...........the architect is the same guy who did the akron museum of art addition.


And the future plans for a tower is wholly dependent on market demand...........

[zaceman]

wait a second... so those two architects who designed  the addition to the akron museum of art also are desiging this parking garage in cleveland??

now i really wanna see what this thing is gonna look like.  ill have to walk by it again when im down there.

[the pope]

^i'm like 90% sure, Mayday will know the correct answer

i'm remembering it being glassy and not a perfect box.......i think.....guhhhhh.......work......

[MayDay]

This project wasn't so much under the radar - there was a small article in the PD a while back (which discussed the tower portion briefly), and as usual I posted a thread on the forum over at skyscraperpage.com.

The architect is Richard Fleischman and Associates, architects of the Polymer Science building at Akron U, NOT the Akron Art museum.





According to a friend who works at Ohio Savings Bank, there is a model of it "somewhere". I'll have to do a little more investigating

[the pope]

hey, i got the city right, didn't i?

[MayDay]

Yes you did - I say we drink to that!  

[zaceman]

haha

well wow that looks really nice.  It doesnt even look like a parking garage.

[MayDay]

Just some photos to show the progress thus far:

In the beginning - you can see they've blocked off the site with Jersey barriers and have started to take down the billboard atop the building:


Well into demolition:


And most recently, the crane appears to begin construction of the parking garage. The cool thing is that with the crane's presence you can get an idea of where the proposed 20-story tower would sit in the skyline (especially from I-77 northbound):

[zaceman]

ya know whats really cool?  how the old arcade's side is exposed now.  when you walk by the architecture looks so old fashioned european.

[MayDay]

I agree - the rows of Chicago-style windows make for quite a sight. What really does it for me is that you can see the 'skylight' glow at night, as shown by this pic by ColDayMan:

[the pope]

i think i was with chris when he took that picture....

anywho, my company is having a conference this weekend and all the guests are at the hyatt, but somehow living 15 minutes from downtown doesn't merit getting a hotel room down there......

[ColDayMan]

Yes, you were.

[FerrariEnzo]

SEE THE CRANE?!?!

[KJP]

Not a good sign when we're getting stoked about the construction of a five-story parking garage downtown! I miss the downtown building boom of the 1970s and especially the 80s (not missing much of the architecture though).

I was in Chicago last month and in Toronto last summer. A 20- to 30-story apartment building doesn't even rate a front-page article in those cities. A friend of mine in Chicago handed to me their transit newspaper which had a leasing ad on the back page for a new 45-story condo tower next to Grant Park. Take a ride through that area on the Orange Line and you can't even tell which building that is because there's so many of a similar height that are under construction or recently built.

Ditto for Toronto, especially up in North York, where the new Sheppard subway joins with the old Yonge subway. An entire suburban downtown has been built there in recent years. Check out....

http://www.geocities.com/asiaglobe/gallery/to-northyork02.htm

and

http://www.geocities.com/asiaglobe/gallery/northyork.htm

Sad that our city is in such doldrums. But all is not hopeless. Back in the 1950s and into the 60s, Toronto used to be in as much of a mess as Cleveland has been. Torontonians decided they didn't want that for themselves anymore. So they built/rebuilt their city from the subways all the way up to the CN Tower. Plus, they capitalized on the fleeing of bank HQs from Quebec during the seperatists' troubles in the 1970s and 80s. So what can Cleveland build on and capitalize on?

KJP

[zaceman]

waaaait a second, this isnt just a parking garage.  And theres 5 residential midrises (10-15 stories)  that are being built downtown as we speak.  Its also going to be a street level retail center as well built to hold a 20 story residential tower on top.  Now im sure as the market keeps heating up downtown something will get built there.

We're not a Chicago and Toronto has regional government.  Its a bit hard to compare them to Cleveland.

Downtown living is completely new to Cleveland, so right now its baby steps until we get enough momentum.  I feel its moving in the right direction.

[FerrariEnzo]

Ill get stoked if I please.  Action is light in Cleveland and as such anyhting is big news here.  Regardless of what happens elsewhere.

[KJP]

Until they put the 20-story building atop the parking garage, then I'll start getting a tad stoked. Sometimes we act like a city is a natually evolving phenomenon and not the result of human dynamics. Cleveland can be whatever it wants to be, but right now there isn't a collective will to follow the best practices that great cities of the world have taken to attain their own status. If you want to be stoked over a parking garage and a few low-rise housing developments, that's your right. And, based on the lack of dynamism locally, you've got a lot of company. But we get from Cleveland what we demand of it. I hope we Clevelanders would not be satisfied with such morsels and instead create the dynamism we so desperately want. No one else is going to do it for us.

KJP

[FerrariEnzo]

Nicely stated.

[zaceman]

no i know what you mean, and its easier to say than do.   But why build a dozen 45 story towers if theres never even been a stepping stone of residential development on that scale downtown?  People dont get it in Cleveland, they dont know what living downtown is.  Its never ever been there other than maybe 3 buildings.  What im excited about is that theres interest now, and its for sale as well.  Im not sitting there saying "woohoo a 10 story tower is going to fix Cleveland!".   No.  Its going to make a modest improvement downtown, but on the bigger view its the beginning of some sort of momentum of moving into the city that cleveland hasnt had in decades.  And to me thats something that IS exciting to see happen.

[MayDay]

Here we go again with the "...Chicago is doing this! and Toronto is doing that!". While I admit that Chicago and Toronto are leaps and bounds ahead, you're comparing Cleveland to cities that have (depending on who is counting) at least two to three times our city population, much less the metro pop.

I'm with zaceman on this - no, a parking deck may not be much but the fact that a group of horribly blighted buildings are gone and a well-designed structure is shaping up does tell me that yes, people still are interested in investing in downtown. Add to that what's going on elsewhere in the CBD and I say downtown Cleveland is moving in the right direction.

[KJP]

The points made about the small downtown housing developments serving as stepping stones is a good one to make. But, MayDay's comment that we can't be a Toronto ignores the recent history of that city. In my lifetime, Toronto was an embarassment before Cleveland was. In the 1960's, my best friend traveled back from Montreal, passed Toronto's tired skyline, and asked his parents what city that was. They remarked "Toronto, but you don't want to go there." Toronto was what Cleveland would become -- neglected.

In 1960, Toronto's population was less than 700,000 while Cleveland's was greater than 800,000. But, while we built highways, scrapped our streetcar system, ignored our decaying neighborhoods and built suburbs that drained the central city, Toronto built subways, acquired our streetcars, created urban redevelopment incentives and established a regional government to focus wealth back into the core city.

The end result is that Toronto is a clean, dynamic, cosmopolitan city and, while it does have poor neighborhoods, you won't find a single slum where there are large tracts of abandoned land, buildings with that bombed-out look, or neighborhoods like Cleveland's that have more in common with those in a Third World country than in the most powerful nation on Earth.

If you want to look at snapshots of the present day, then your supposition is correct. But cities can and do change for better or worse, and in a relatively short period of time. What we decide and do for Cleveland should be bold, because if we seek less, that's exactly what we'll get.

KJP

[MayDay]

I don't mean to come off as snarky when I say this but of course I wouldn't be as familiar with the 'recent' history of either Toronto or Cleveland - I was six years old when the city went into default and frankly, I didn't grow up in the area. I wasn't around while older generations redlined neighborhoods, white-flighted and in so many other ways led to this (and other urban areas in the States) decline. My first visit to downtown Cleveland was in the late 1970s - I remember it was awe-inspiring because it was a big city but I also remember vividly the streets and buildings were filthy.

In some ways I'm grateful I'm a 'johnny come lately' because while it's been said over and over again, it is SO true that the greatest pessimism and negativity toward Cleveland comes from the people who were born and raised here, hands down.

As a resident of the city who has been car-free - you bet your @ss I want to see heavy investment in rail transit, higher population density, TODs, you name it - and every chance I get I educated people on why such things equal higher property values and better quality of life. But I know that just like the stepping stones of these aforementioned projects, so is the education of the people in this region. Are things where they should be? No.

Are they getting better? I'd say yes, although obviously things could be happening faster and in greater numbers. I think it's the stepping stones like Pinnacle, District Park, Medical Mutual Plaza, the adaptive re-use, the work of EcoCity Cleveland, ParkWorks, Cleveland Public Art - that's going to educate people even more about the effects of sprawl and decentralization so that more and more people get behind even bigger and better things. It'll take time but from I've seen in the short decade that I've become familiar with Cleveland - I still have hope.

/rant

[MayDay]

Updated photo from October 1st, 2004:

[MayDay]

One more update from 10/08/04:

[C-Dawg]

I'm shocked to hear people complain about Cleveland's "slow progress" downtown. I mean, damn, I'd kill if my city had ONE downtown high rise planned or even dreamnt about. The last high rise (10 stories plus) of any sort built in Toledo was in 1987! All the while, Cleveland has these 10, 15, and 20 story apartment towers planneed or under construction. That's sweet! Downtown Cleveland looks like it's doing a lot better than its other midwest counterparts- minus Chicago of course. Chicago is th capitol of the skyscraper and always has had a large population living in high rise apartments. Yes, while Cleveland is sort of the midwest's "second city" culturally speaking, it is not on the same scale as Chicago. It never has been. Chicago is ridiculously HUGE. Only NYC feels bigger than Chicago. Almost 3 million live in the central city and about 9 million with the suburbs. That's 3 times the size of metro Cleveland. Chicago is one of the biggest cities on this continent. Cleveland's a major city, no doubt, but not to the level that Chicago is.
And Toronto- those damn Canadians are notorious for upshowing American cities!! Every major city in Canada is cleaner, healthier, and safer than almost any big city in America. That's just reality. Canadians do big cities well. They know how to make a city impressive, beautiful, and pleasant to live in. It's no surprise they are building lots of high rises in Toronto. That city has its sh!t together air tight.

[KJP]

I see you missed my mentioning that Toronto was smaller and in worse shape than Cleveland as recently as 1960. Not all Canadian cities were better than U.S. cities. Cities change, and it's people that change them. They're not natural phenomena. What did they do to make their cities so dynamic, clean and cosmopolitan? What can we do to implement their best practices?

Now, if Clevelanders don't want those things for ourselves, that's one thing. But, I think we do want them. Correct? So, what are we going to do about it? What is the vision for our metropolitan area? Sadly, we don't even have one.

If we're going to call ourselves powerless over our destiny, then I say to Cleveland "Thanks for the memories" and I'll follow the talented, young people that are leaving Cleveland in droves for cities that have a vision of what they want to be and are pushing themselves to achieve it.

KJP

[zaceman]

Droves??  i think thats over-doing it a bit.  

Personally i think the reason why Toronto has prospered is because it regionalized, something i think will happen in Cleveland.  But itll take longer for Cleveland, and its simply because of the country it exists in.  If im not mistaken Toronto was forced by the canadian government to regionalize, heh something i dont even think US gov't is allowed to do.

[KJP]

I did a newspaper search on "brain drain" and, while I couldn't find data specific to Greater Cleveland, I did find several articles which noted that no other state has lost more young people in the 18-30 age range than Ohio. I'd call that "droves."

Ever read anything by Richard Florida of Pittsburgh's Carnegie Mellon University about the "Creative Class" of young people and where they're living in the U.S.? It's not Cleveland, nor is it Pittsburgh, both of which he ranked as major cities having the worst characteristics for attracting or retaining the Creative Class.

That's just part of the reason why Cleveland is the most impoverished big city in the nation. Check out the vacancy rates for downtown buildings -- the 29-story Ameritrust Tower has been 100% empty for 15 years, and the BP Tower has been half empty for almost as long. Others are almost as bad. Suburban office buildings have been stuck on the drawing board for years because of our stinky economy.

C'mon people! Get mad! Anger is a great motivation for change. But I'm getting more upset with the fact that people don't seem to be angry with our embarassing situation.

KJP

[MayDay]

Well sure, let's just call up Bank of America and say we're mad about the vacancy rate in downtown Cleveland and maybe they'll relocate from Charlotte or heck, even cancel their new NYC tower and plop it down on Public Square! After that we can call Bill Gates and have him move to Bratenahl! After all, we're mad aren't we?   Don't take my remarks as anything more than busting your chops - the reason we're all on this forum is that we have an interest in what happens to our urban centers.

As far as the Creative Class - you're preaching to the choir and frankly a little late - on this and other urban/architecture forums, Richard Florida was being discussed well over a year ago. He makes good points but he also oversimplifies a LOT of issues. As a card-carrying member of the creative class (hell, as a gay, 32-year old graphic designer/photographer who authored a book about Cleveland architecture I think I'm a poster child), I can assure that things are hardly as bleak as Florida would paint them.

Could they be better? Yes. Are they getting better? Absolutely - the Cool Cleveland events (usually attended by 500+ people), efforts by Cleveland Public Art, the creation of live-work zones and so many more things are happening to make Cleveland a desireable place for creative types. Now, if we could get northeast Ohio to secede from the  downstate hilljacks...  

[buildingcincinnati]

Now, if we could get northeast Ohio to secede from the  downstate hilljacks...  

Watch it!  

[zaceman]

hahaha!

[CleveChiNola]

Does anyone know what the approx. population of the downtown districts will be when all of the new housing goes in?
I think the magic number for the "critical mass" is 10,000.  Is this right, and how close will we be?

Thanks

[zaceman]

oh im sure its getting close in some areas of downtown, last number i heard for all of downtown was somewhere around 9500

however that 10,000 figure is per square mile and downtown cleveland is about 4 sq miles.  So i would say somewhere in the 20k-25k range is when the ball will start rolling.

[KJP]

I've been saying for years we should secede -- everything north of the Ohio Turnpike! True about Richard Florida oversimplifying. And the area from University Circle up to Coventry and Shaker Square has just about everything the Creative Class could want. So, sometimes you have to do some PR-truth stretching to attract the Creative Class to the part of your city that meets their needs, then create more nodes in other parts of the city once a critical mass has been achieved.

RE: banks....  I think you know that if Cleveland had more amenities and less of the political BS that turns off companies that are shopping for new homes, we'd be in a better position to grab employers when the opportunities arise -- such as when the troubles in Quebec prompted financial institutions to flee. They, of course, settled in Toronto.

That's why I keep being a pain in the ass about this to build the amenities, urban housing styles and dynamism here that can attract employers, nurture entrepenuers and retain them. One parting thought -- an urban design consultant I once heard noted that there are only six cities in the U.S. with truly healthy downtowns:  Boston, Chicago, New York/Manhattan, Portland, San Francisco and Seattle. The two main characteristics these downtowns had were that at least 10 percent of the "mother city's" population lived downtown, office and residential vacancy rates were less than 5 percent and it's downtown had good public transit that linked it to employment, cultural and other attractions.

KJP

KJP